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briansnat

Hide Cache Coordinates Option

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I came up with this idea in a General forum discussion about looting of caches and how to stop it, or at least make it harder. I thought I'd post it here where it would be more appropriate.

 

How about giving cache owners the option to hide the coordinates when they post the cache. This could be a simple check off box on the form. The default (of course) would be to display the coordinates.

 

When the cache page is displayed, instead of the coordinates being shown, there could be a message saying "contact cache owner for coordinates". The

cache owner would would still have to enter the coordinates when posting the cache, so the website's search and map functions still work.

The only difference would be that the coordinates would be masked when the page is displayed.

 

This isn't a function that I would use and hopefully most others wouldn't either, but it would be great for those cache owners who have a problem with their caches being looted by rogue GPS users

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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I don't get it. What's to prevent a "rogue gps user" from contacting the cache owner and asking for the coord's?

 

Charlie

"One should never begin a journey by heading in the wrong direction."

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The cache owner would only give the coordinates to people they are comfortable with. Perhaps only known area cachers. Newer cachers would have to establish a reputation first.

 

Ideally this would only be used by an owner who is having a problem with looting. The vast majority of cache pages should display normally.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

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I'd like the option to hide them from non-registered users. I'd rather not have people emailing me for coordinates. I'm going on the assumption that once someone registers, they are here to play the game. And, I'd be willing to take my chances with the throw away emailers, since it's my feeling that someone going through that much trouble isn't going to be stopped anyway.

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I agree with Cachew Nut re hiding from non-registered users, and Bassoon Pilot is VERY RIGHT when he uses "ad nauseum" to discribe the previous discussion on the subject. I just checked the number of logs on my own hidden caches, 150. I don't want 150 emails from people asking for co-ords. I wouldn't know how to learn to "trust" them. The VAST majority of those that have found my caches have been people I don't know from Adam. Plus, when a newbie comes along...how will I know whether to trust this new user or not. Don't throw up too many roadblocks, simply get the new user to register and login (an option we have heard is coming), then go hunting.

What you're suggesting is really a part of what 'Members Only Caches' are aimed at.

 

Keep yer sail 'igh, 'nd move swiftly,

:D Captain No Beard and the Pi Rats

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

The cache owner would only give the coordinates to people they are comfortable with. Perhaps only known area cachers. Newer cachers would have to establish a reputation first.

 

Ideally this would only be used by an owner who is having a problem with looting. The vast majority of cache pages should display normally.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller


How would the newer cachers get a reputation?

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As I said this would be a OPTION that would available to people who have had a problem with plundered caches and they suspect that a GPS user is plundering them.

 

If you don't want to deal with e-mails, then you don't use the option. And if you are a cache seeker who doesn't want to go through the trouble of e-mailing the owner, they you just skip that cache.

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

As I said this would be a OPTION that would available to people who have had a problem with plundered caches and they suspect that a GPS user is plundering them.

 

If you don't want to deal with e-mails, then you don't use the option. And if you are a cache seeker who doesn't want to go through the trouble of e-mailing the owner, they you just skip that cache.


 

Two of the proposed option's more glaring weaknesses:

 

1. Cache owners would be able to utilize the option to manipulate and discriminate against any cacher, known or unknown, for any (or no) reason. That's patently unfair.

 

2. The option would in no way stop anyone from passing coordinates on to anyone else or of returning to the cache after a number of other people have logged finds and plundering it. An option so easily defeated is, in my opinion, of no value.

 

I think it would be far more effective for a "targeted" cache owner to hide caches under a different user name.

 

What's next? Anyone want the option of requiring anyone who wants to place a cache to first seek permission from all the local cachers?

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on September 07, 2002 at 11:53 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

Two of the proposed option's more glaring weaknesses:

 

1. Cache owners would be able to utilize the option to manipulate and discriminate against _any_ cacher, known or unknown, for any (or no) reason. That's patently unfair.


 

This is true, in my case I don't want to exclude any registered users.

 

quote:

2. The option would in no way stop anyone from passing coordinates on to anyone else or of returning to the cache after a number of other people have logged finds and plundering it. An option so easily defeated is, in my opinion, of no value.


 

I could live with this, as long has the first hurdle has been crossed.

 

quote:

I think it would be far more effective for a "targeted" cache owner to hide caches under a different user name.


 

That's fine for the "targeted" cache owner. What option is available for the ordinary cache hider whose cache is chosen at random? Just to make it clear...yes I do believe that GPS owners who are unregistered on the site plunder caches listed on this site.

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If you are so concerned about your cache being looted, then do one of the following 5 things.

 

(1) Make the cache a members only cache.

(2) Make the cache a micro cache so if it get's

taken who cares.

(3) Make it a virtual Cache.

(4) Make the cache coords a riddle or somthing.

generally the harder the person has to work

for the coords, the less likely they will

go after the cache.

(5) Become really good at hiding the cache, or

make the cache container very difficult to

find.

 

P.S. Caches normaly are only worth less than $10 bucks. Yes, I understand it can be frustrating to loose a cache, but if you put a cache in a high traffic area, those are the risks.

 

The Brownies

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quote:
Originally posted by The_Brownies:

(1) Make the cache a members only cache.

(2) Make the cache a micro cache so if it get's

taken who cares.

(3) Make it a virtual Cache.

(4) Make the cache coords a riddle or somthing.

generally the harder the person has to work

for the coords, the less likely they will

go after the cache.

(5) Become really good at hiding the cache, or

make the cache container very difficult to

find.

 

P.S. Caches normaly are only worth less than $10 bucks. Yes, I understand it can be frustrating to loose a cache, but if you put a cache in a high traffic area, those are the risks.

 

The Brownies


 

My responses

 

1) That's a good idea.

2) Those are tough to find in the woods.

3) No log book?

4) I suck at riddles.

5) He is and he does.

 

P.S.) I can see you've never found one of his caches. $10 is the cost of most of his containers. Also all the ones I've found have been in areas that aren't likely to be stumbled across

 

====================================

As always, the above statements are just MHO.

===================================

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quote:

Two of the proposed option's more glaring weaknesses: 1. Cache owners would be able to utilize the option to manipulate and discriminate against any cacher, known or unknown, for any (or no) reason. That's patently unfair.


 

Happens already. Witness the instance where JoGps deleted over 40 legit finds of another cacher because he had a disagreement with the guy.

 

quote:

2. The option would in no way stop anyone from passing coordinates on to anyone else or of returning to the cache after a number of other people have logged finds and plundering it. An option so easily defeated is, in my opinion, of no value


 

I never said it was a foolproof method. Locking the doors of your car won't deter a determined car theif either, but people still lock their car doors.

 

The idea was to make it more difficult for cache theives to operate and give some cache owners the OPTION to protect their caches.

 

Again, this would be an option, not a requirement (some people here don't seem to get this point). It's somewhat similar to MOC's, but instead having to pony up some bucks to get the coordinates, you simply have to ask the cache owner for them.

 

As I said, I wouldn't use something like this. But if I were a cacher owner whose caches were targeted for whatever reason, it would be nice to have this option available.

 

Hey, if its a dumb idea, then Jeremy, et. al. won't even consider it, so what's the point of arguing about it

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quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

 

That's fine for the "targeted" cache owner. What option is available for the ordinary cache hider whose cache is chosen at random? Just to make it clear...yes I do believe that GPS owners who are unregistered on the site plunder caches listed on this site.


 

I have no answer for that one. Everyone risks having a cache accidentally or intentionally discovered and plundered. It's happened to two of my caches. I just don't see how hiding coordinates until someone has logged in will have any effect ... too many people view too many cache pages to make it a practical security feature.

 

If x number of logged in users viewed your cache page in the past month, how would one narrow down a list of suspects? Who would do it? Is the geocaching.com system even set up to record what users viewed which pages?

 

We've had our share of "renegade cachers" here in NJ, and it definitely appeared that they were targeting specific cache owners or territory.

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

 

Again, this would be an option, not a requirement (some people here don't seem to get this point). It's somewhat similar to MOC's, but instead having to pony up some bucks to get the coordinates, you simply have to ask the cache owner for them.


 

Consider:

 

What is the basic level of service available at Geocaching.com free to all visitors of the site, and how far does the owner of the site wish, or can afford, to expand that level of service?

 

My opinion is, if a proposed option will be utilized by the majority of site users, then it should be considered for inclusion in that basic level of service ... but if a proposed option is a special feature that will be utilized by a minimum number of users, then perhaps those users should be expected to pay for such premium features. And as Brian suggests, MOCs are currently the best solution to the type of problem this thread has addressed.

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on September 08, 2002 at 05:37 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

I have no answer for that one.


sure you do, you always do icon_razz.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Cachew nut:

Just to make it clear...yes I do believe that GPS owners who are unregistered on the site plunder caches listed on this site.


 

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

If x number of logged in users viewed your cache page in the past month, how would one narrow down a list of suspects?


 

You either keep missing the point or are purposefully steering clear of it. My concern is not about logged in users. The concern is about plunderers who are not logged in (unregistered). I couldn't care less about a list of suspects, I've already identified the suspects.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

I have no answer for that one.


sure you do, you always do icon_razz.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Cachew nut:

Just to make it clear...yes I do believe that GPS owners who are unregistered on the site plunder caches listed on this site.


 

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

If x number of logged in users viewed your cache page in the past month, how would one narrow down a list of suspects?


 

You either keep missing the point or are purposefully steering clear of it. My concern is not about logged in users. The concern is about plunderers who are not logged in (unregistered). I couldn't care less about a list of suspects, I've already identified the suspects.

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quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

You either keep missing the point or are purposefully steering clear of it. My concern is not about logged in users. The concern is about plunderers who are not logged in (unregistered). I couldn't care less about a list of suspects, I've already identified the suspects.


 

No, the misunderstanding was actually yours ... or perhaps what I wrote was unclear. In that example, I was working under the presumption that your desire to have coordinates visible only to persons registered and logged in had been granted.

 

With that cleared up, re-read what I said:

 

quote:
originally posted by BassoonPilot:

I just don't see how hiding coordinates until someone has logged in will have any effect ... too many people view too many cache pages to make it a practical security feature.

 

If x number of logged in users viewed your cache page in the past month, how would one narrow down a list of suspects? Who would do it? Is the geocaching.com system even set up to record what users viewed which pages?


 

I know you believe that requiring people to register and log in will have the effect of decreasing the number of caches that are vandalized or plundered. But the registration system is practically anonymous, and it would require far too much time and effort on the part of the administrators to verify accounts or to track down suspected miscreants through their ISPs.

 

In part, that's why I believe requiring the login would provide little, if any, protection to cache owners nor practical benefit to the website administrators.

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on September 08, 2002 at 04:57 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

I know you believe that requiring people to register and log in will have the effect of decreasing the number of caches that are vandalized or plundered. But the registration system is practically anonymous, and it would require far too much time and effort on the part of the administrators to verify accounts or to track down suspected miscreants through their ISPs.


 

I understand what you are saying but...I'm not asking the administrators to verify accounts or track ISPs. They don't do that now and I haven't asked for them to do so. The act of having to register may be enough of a deterrent. I've already said that I'd be willing to put up with the throw-away emailers.

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quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

 

I understand what you are saying but...I'm not asking the administrators to verify accounts or track ISPs. They don't do that now and I haven't asked for them to do so. The act of having to register may be enough of a deterrent. I've already said that I'd be willing to put up with the throw-away emailers.


 

One might was well just create a splashy graphic to put on their cache page that says "This Cache Is Protected By Rabid Hamsters."

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Rather than create a lot of maintenance issues with the administrators, why not post the coordinates that are off a couple of hundred yards and require an email to get the actual coordinates. This way the "maps" on the cache page get you into the actual park, the administrators don't have to be bothered and the cache is "protected" as you can select who goes.

 

Frankly, is this issue so severe that all this makes sense to do? Seems like you'll limit a lot of potential honest people wanting to seek your cache. The to or three I lost to vandalism I'm sure were just non cacher bumping into the cache or seeing a cacher finding it.

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

Rather than create a lot of maintenance issues with the administrators, why not post the coordinates that are off a couple of hundred yards and require an email to get the actual coordinates. This way the "maps" on the cache page get you into the actual park, the administrators don't have to be bothered and the cache is "protected" as you can select who goes.


 

This has been brought up before...

 

I often cache without the details. Sometimes I do bring printed sheets, but more often I seem to be caching with just a waypoint loaded and a vague idea of where to go.

 

----------

One banana, two banana, three banana, four.

Four bananas make a bunch and so do many more.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

One might was well just create a splashy graphic to put on their cache page that says "This Cache Is Protected By Rabid Hamsters."


 

How would this prevent unregistered users from accessing the coordinates?

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The concern should be with "how do we minimize the number of caches that are plundered."

 

I don't believe registration would prove to be the panacea you think it would. The powers-that-be have consistently decided to:

 

a: ignore the discussion or

 

b: not offer the proposed option every time this discussion has come up.

 

So there we have it. I'm bored with the topic. Drop me a line if the proposal is ever adopted.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

So there we have it. I'm bored with the topic. Drop me a line if the proposal is ever adopted.


 

Glad you're done here, you really haven't added anything useful as a solution so I won't really miss your posts on this subject. I will drop you a line if anything ever develops though, since you asked and hopefully we can find other subjects to agree or disagree about in other forum messages.

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Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

_a:_ ignore the discussion or

 

_b:_ __not__ offer the proposed option every time this discussion has come up.

QUOTE]

 

Yeah, well I guess I was duped or baited by Jeremy who told me he liked the idea and would implement it, in a private email. His public forum posts indicate otherwise. While I can't prove the email he sent, I stand by my words that he did. I just wish that he wouldn't flip-flop on the issue.

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