Challenges: Crash and burn?

[+Doctroid]

So it's been about a month and a half since challenges were introduced. How are they doing?

 

Hard to tell, but I took a look. There are only about 3 or 4 challenges in my area, not enough to draw any conclusions about trends, so I did a search on challenges near New York City. There are currently 44 of them, it says here. Of these, 36 were created "about a month ago". Another 3 were created 3 or more weeks ago, and another 2 more than 2 weeks ago. 3 have been created in the past 2 weeks.

 

So, after the initial interest, looks like New Yorkers are creating about 1–2 challenges a week lately.

 

The highest rated New York City challenge is '10 years after 9/11 ~ GROUND ZERO SITE MEMORIAL', with 40 thumbs up, but it also has 23 thumbs down, so lots of reviews but they're mixed. (74 people have completed it.) In second place is 'Grand Central Whispering Gallery' with 14 thumbs up, 4 thumbs down: a more uniformly positive response. It was created "about a month ago" (challenge pages don't give exact dates for logs) and has 21 completions. I'm thinking, how many cachers per month pass through Grand Central? I'd guess a lot more than 21.

 

This is hardly an exhaustive and rigorous survey, and as one who wasn't impressed with the idea of challenges from the start, I acknowledge it's not unbiased. Nevertheless I get the strong impression challenges are receiving a lack of interest at a level that even I find surprising.

 

Any other interesting data points on this subject? Are challenges going gangbusters in other geographic areas?

[+Keelmann And Cici]

Keep in mind on thumbs down measurements, many people who are opposed to the basic idea of challenges are simply thumbs downing everything in the area.

 

To make the comparison more valid, you should compare to the number of geocaches created during the same period for an area, recognizing that this is a sideline to the primary purpose, so one would expect it to be at a much lower level.

 

I neither like nor dislike challenges, so I'd say I'm relatively unbiased.

[+dfx]

By looking at the ones around here and the ones that we've created, I can conclude that the initial surge of interest has died down quite a lot.

[+Manville Possum]

One of mine has been armchair logged by an account with lots of numbers. Three have been completed by actual seekers, but there seems to be little interest in challanges. I have challange listings in three States and there are few other users creating them. I don't like the idea that armchair logging is acceptable. They sure were a let down from the beginning as a replacement for virtuals.

[+fuzziebear3]

There is no easy way to know if a new challenge pops up in your area (notifications), or if there are nice challenges in an area you will visit (maps). So I think this limits the number of people that complete a given challenge, especially out of town ones.

 

I think there was a try it out newness factor at the beginning, lots of people created 1 or 2, did 1 or 2, and didn't find them to be that appealing over all to make the extra effort required for them. So back to tupperware in the woods. I know that is how it worked for me.

 

There isn't even joy in the one I created, because I don't get any e-mails about it, that someone commented on it or completed it (lack of ownership).

[+Isonzo Karst]

I think interest may increase as features increase: If you could download a .gpx file, if they showed up as "nearest challenges", if you could PQ for them, if there were notifications....

 

While I think I understand the point of view of "no ownership", I think it drives "no interest in creating" - no email when "your" challenge is logged, no easy way to do anything about the armchair logging, and having your challenge just disappear because X number of people flagged it, all make challenge creation less interesting then it might be.

 

The most found challenges around me don't need coords to do - pictures at the pro sports stadiums. Once you've read those challenges, it's not that hard to remember, or get a shot that's appropriate.

[+geodarts]

Of the 28 challenges nearest my present location, all but 6 were created a month ago. Completions appear to have fallen off, with some of the people who were initially most active not having logged new completions in quite a while. The most popular challenges have been those in major tourist areas where gpsr use is not required. Of course, not all who "complete" the challenges have actually done so.

 

There could be several different factors - a surge if interest when they were new; people trying it out; the number that were done before completions were separated from geocache finds; the lack of ownership; and people discovering that challenges have no real relation to caching or the type of experience that the old virtuals provide.

 

These factors might be expected with any new Groundspeak venture. It is perhaps too early to determine whether challenges will sustain people's interest - even to the extent that Waymarking has done. So I am not sure I would call it a "crash and burn," but neither does it appear to be something that has been embraced by many of us who enjoy the old virtuals.

[+jeffbouldin]

I was initially excited about them. I defended them thinking that Groundspeak would tweak the system and make them better. That hasn't happened so I've lost interest. I won't create one until I can "own" it. I want to be notified like I do when someone finds a cache of mine. I also want to be able to make sure they are logged legitimately. Until I can do those two things I won't waste my time. And without a way to integrate them with pocket queries and map searches they are to hard to keep up with. I just won't mess with them until the system is fixed. Once they are a "true" replacement for virtuals and webcams they will not hold my interest.

[+CanadianRockies]

There could be several different factors - a surge if interest when they were new; people trying it out; the number that were done before completions were separated from geocache finds; the lack of ownership; and people discovering that challenges have no real relation to caching or the type of experience that the old virtuals provide.

As well, some people completed challenges by using old photographs that they had laying around; no need to actually visit these challenge sites. Now they've finished completing many of those easy desktop challenges, leaving more challenges that require going outside.

[+yawppy]

I have about 4..3 I created, of my 3 one was 2 have a completion, and the ranks up/down, barely a drop in the bucket...unless they work on it to where they show up in a PQ, and treat them like a cache, ownership, the like... think they are going down in flames.

 

I was for them, and still am, but with the way they are now, just not working, and just in case anyone is interested...there is a separate app for the challenges, quite a lame app, but it is there, seems like Waymarking all over, not virtuals!

 

I still try them from time to time, and think they could work, if they get listed as a cache type, show up as a cache in a PQ, etc, but we shall see, the frog seemed quite adamant that they would remain, so time will tell!

[+The_Incredibles_]

By looking at the ones around here and the ones that we've created, I can conclude that the initial surge of interest has died down quite a lot.

 

+1 This is what seems to have happened in our area. I like challenges, but it's not quite the same as finding a cache. I have submitted my opinions to the feedback site. Ownership would be good. The thumbs downs have to go. And the automatically archiving flagged challenges has to go; people should have a chance to fix the challenge if there's something wrong with it, rather than it vanishing overnight.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I have about 4..3 I created, of my 3 one was 2 have a completion, and the ranks up/down, barely a drop in the bucket...unless they work on it to where they show up in a PQ, and treat them like a cache, ownership, the like... think they are going down in flames.

 

It seems to me that one of the biggest objections to challenges is that they're not treated like a cache. I though it was pretty clear when the feature was launched was that challenges are not caches, thus, expecting them to be treated like caches isn't likely ever going to happen.

 

One of the suggestions that I made early after they were released was something that I think could have the greatest amount of return of the amount of development required. That is to simply allow challenges to be added to a watch list. The challenge creator simply add their new challenge to a watch list and they'll see logs on it even though they no longer own it. Anyone in the local community can also put it on their watch list, making it much easier to see when a bogus completion has been posted and then flag it accordingly.

[+hzoi]

I think there was a try it out newness factor at the beginning, lots of people created 1 or 2, did 1 or 2, and didn't find them to be that appealing over all to make the extra effort required for them. So back to tupperware in the woods. I know that is how it worked for me.

 

There isn't even joy in the one I created, because I don't get any e-mails about it, that someone commented on it or completed it (lack of ownership).

 

That about sums it up for me, too.

 

We put out a challenge in Iraq when they were new, because I wanted to place something that didn't require a physical container. I'd've preferred a virtual, though.

[+Thrak]

Haven't looked to see if there are any in my area. No interest at all in them. They seem like a pretty lame idea to me.

[AZcachemeister]

I don't see a lot of activity around the Phoenix area, but then again I'd rather check my toes for sock-lint.

 

I will mention the apparent incongruity that Groundspeak has created a FREE app for ANDROID (and iPhone too, I believe) to look up Challenges, despite the fact that they are charging $10 for the Geocaching apps. Interesting, no?

[Tahosa and Sons]

I'm working on a placement for a new multi and may use a challenge cache as a hint to help find the cache.

[+t4e]

they could be fun, unfortunately GC created such a hype about them during the extensive time it took to roll them out and didn't deliver anything close to what they led us to believe they will be

i patiently waited for almost a year that they took to finally launch them,thinking that in such a long time they will be well "polished" only to discover that they are not even close to being a viable option

at the current stage they could have been launched in a month not a year

 

too many things have been overlooked to list them here....but my guess is that the lack of owner/creator control, which in turn does not generate any emails to know when someone logged it, has made quite a lot of people loose interest

Edited October 3, 2011 by t4e

[+fizzymagic]

I'm working on a placement for a new multi and may use a challenge cache as a hint to help find the cache.

 

Make it a mystery and make the challenge the way to get the coords, and I would say you've got a winner there.

[AZcachemeister]

they could be fun, unfortunately GC created such a hype about them during the extensive time it took to roll them out and didn't deliver anything close to what they led us to believe they will be

i patiently waited for almost a year that they took to finally launch them,thinking that in such a long time they will be well "polished" only to discover that they are not even close to being a viable option

at the current stage they could have been launched in a month not a year

 

too many things have been overlooked to list them here....but my guess is that the lack of owner/creator control, which in turn does not generate any emails to know when someone logged it, has made quite a lot of people loose interest

 

Exercising my right to agree!

 

With all the fanfare and hype, I was ready to sink my teeth into something really meaty!

Instead I was (we were) tossed a soggy soda-cracker.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I created a half dozen or so Challenges with whatever ideas I brainstormed at the beginning. I haven't had any ideas for more lately, but if I do I will create them.

 

I think interest may increase as features increase: If you could download a .gpx file, if they showed up as "nearest challenges", if you could PQ for them, if there were notifications....

 

Given this is one of the biggest complains about Waymarking I would be surprised if it wasn't also a major factor holding back Challenges. At least we've been promised PQs for Challenges in the future - I think Waymark PQs are still only "under consideration"...

 

While I think I understand the point of view of "no ownership", I think it drives "no interest in creating" - no email when "your" challenge is logged, no easy way to do anything about the armchair logging, and having your challenge just disappear because X number of people flagged it, all make challenge creation less interesting then it might be.

 

Even if they stayed ownerless, this issue could be easily be remedied by being able to put Challenges on your Watchlist. Which would also be great for seeing completions for nifty Challenges out there by someone else. Hopefully that is also on Lillipad's plans for Challenges' future.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Joshism

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

While I think I understand the point of view of "no ownership", I think it drives "no interest in creating" - no email when "your" challenge is logged, no easy way to do anything about the armchair logging, and having your challenge just disappear because X number of people flagged it, all make challenge creation less interesting then it might be.

 

Even if they stayed ownerless, this issue could be easily be remedied by being able to put Challenges on your Watchlist. Which would also be great for seeing completions for nifty Challenges out there by someone else. Hopefully that is also on Lillipad's plans for Challenges' future.

 

Yep. Just what I suggested in post #12. If challenges could be added to a watch list and notifications of new challenges were implemented that would go a long way in improving the feature. As it is, Groundspeak came up with a new model for challenge with the elimination of a formal review process and the ability of the creator to manage the logs. Instead, they've left it up to the community to review new challenges for appropriateness and to flag bogus completions but they haven't (yet) given us the tools that allows the community to easily monitor when new challenges are created or when they are logged.

[+Manville Possum]

they could be fun, unfortunately GC created such a hype about them during the extensive time it took to roll them out and didn't deliver anything close to what they led us to believe they will be

i patiently waited for almost a year that they took to finally launch them,thinking that in such a long time they will be well "polished" only to discover that they are not even close to being a viable option

at the current stage they could have been launched in a month not a year

 

too many things have been overlooked to list them here....but my guess is that the lack of owner/creator control, which in turn does not generate any emails to know when someone logged it, has made quite a lot of people loose interest

 

Exercising my right to agree!

 

With all the fanfare and hype, I was ready to sink my teeth into something really meaty!

Instead I was (we were) tossed a soggy soda-cracker.

More like a sucker covered with fire ants.....

[AZcachemeister]

 

More like a sucker covered with fire ants.....

 

[+DanOCan]

Looking at our area I see about six have been created. A couple I might try one day since they remind me of the old Virtual caches. The rest don't appeal to me.

 

In checking the logs/profiles of people finding my caches, I see very few have completed any challenges.

 

I know it's early but I'm almost ready to add Challenges to the pile with Wherigo, Souveniers and Chirps.

[+The Geo-Secret Agent]

I know it's early but I'm almost ready to add Challenges to the pile with Wherigo, Souveniers and Chirps.

 

Bingo. Did some at first but lost interest VERY QUICKLY.

Hey Groundspeak, sometimes more in NOT better. Back to basics anyone?

[+res2100]

I like the new Challenges, as they have gotten me out of the house when I otherwise would have just stayed indoors. However a lot can be and should be done to improve the user experience, and soon, otherwise people will lose interest as they seem to be. Here are some things I hope Groundspeak listens to:

 

--The learning curve. There are still way too many people trying to create challenges that are not appropriate such particullarly non-location specific challenges. And way too many people log these challenges.

--For challenges to succeed, they need to count in your stats. Challenges are no different than Virtual and Locationless caches of the past and hence should be treated the same. If Virtuals and Locationless caches count as smilies, then so should Challenges, otherwise most people won't bother as people do want their smilies. Some people might not want them to count, but then they don't have to do the challenges.

--Groundspeak needs to create more worldwide challenges. It says they will create a new one each day, but it seems like it's around once per week and not once per day.

--Stop the couch potato logging. Couch potato logging of caches has not been allowed in years and this should apply to challenges too. There are so many challenge location that I have been to in the past, before the challenges existed, that I easily qualify for, but I know it's wrong to log them as the challenge did not exist when I was at those locations.

--Ownership. There needs to be some form of ownership, notification of logs to the owner, watchlist and so on. Once of my challenges wasn't clear and needs updating since the 5 people who marked it as completed did it as a locationless challenge and hence did not qualify for these. Unfortunately I can't do anything about it. When looking at my stats, it should also show how many challenges I created, just like it shows how many challenges I completed...these links should also be clickable so people can see what someone has found and owns.

--Maps/finding challenges/loading GPS. All this needs to implemented. When I am out caching I should be able to just as easily find closest challenges and be able to look up the information on my GPS, just as I do with caches.

 

I realize some of the above are planned and it's still the very early stages, however its coming up on 2 months since the enw challenges were introduced and I think we need to see more done before the user base loses interest. If people lose interest it will be much harder to get them interested again.

 

It would also be nice if there was a place where people can ask questions to Groundspeak about challenges and they read and reply. I know I have a number of questions about what makes a valid challenge.

 

Hopefully someone is listening, as I defintiely would like challenges to continue and to succeed.

[+Singletree Expedition]

 

While I think I understand the point of view of "no ownership", I think it drives "no interest in creating" - no email when "your" challenge is logged, no easy way to do anything about the armchair logging, and having your challenge just disappear because X number of people flagged it, all make challenge creation less interesting then it might be.

 

Even if they stayed ownerless, this issue could be easily be remedied by being able to put Challenges on your Watchlist. Which would also be great for seeing completions for nifty Challenges out there by someone else. Hopefully that is also on Lillipad's plans for Challenges' future.

 

Yep. Just what I suggested in post #12. If challenges could be added to a watch list and notifications of new challenges were implemented that would go a long way in improving the feature. As it is, Groundspeak came up with a new model for challenge with the elimination of a formal review process and the ability of the creator to manage the logs. Instead, they've left it up to the community to review new challenges for appropriateness and to flag bogus completions but they haven't (yet) given us the tools that allows the community to easily monitor when new challenges are created or when they are logged.

 

A watchlist for Challenges has already been Planned and Started.

 

Work on a watchlist for Challenges has begun and will be implemented in an upcoming release. (30974)

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/2173095-challenge-notifications-and-watchlist

[+geodarts]

Groundspeak states that they determined that people like virtuals in order to get out and about - and then gave us challenges as a replacement. I think that in itself is why challenges have not been embraced.

 

Challenges do not replace virtuals. They replace ALRs. Most of the ones I have seen don't require a gpsr, have tasks that do not require finding something in the specific location (walk along the beach, go swimming, plank, explore the area, eat an ice cream cone), and are often in spots where there already virtual or physical caches. My general reaction has been to ask "why." Then there are the worldwides that could have replaced the old locationless but again miss the mark.

 

To even come close, challenges need to be controlled by the owner, who has responsibility for the listing. They need to be able to have tasks related to a specific location that can be monitored - the kind of completion that many of the virtuals have. Owners should do an on site visit to determine the task - armchair creation is as much of a problem as armchair logging.

 

I don't need something to get me out and about. I cache. I letterbox. I play ispy on the iPhone, which is closer to what challenges should have been. I created 3 challenges in areas where caching is not allowed and may have done more, but there are too many problems right now.

 

I wanted something that would extend this game like the old virtuals and instead got . . . challenges. In the end it shows me that Groundspeak could have truly replaced the old virtuals - and even the old locationless - and again gave us something we did not particularly want.

Edited October 4, 2011 by geodarts

[+SwineFlew]

Some people dont like changes. I do feel that ALRs issue in the past is one of the reasons why GS want challenges without any owners. Its a sticky situation for GS when some cachers are on a power trip or always worrying/assuming armchair logging.

[+Lime Candy]

I agree with res2100's points. Challenges could be vastly improved if those changes were made.

 

I think so far they've crashed and burned. Last week I attended the event GC30GPK, there were 92 'attended' logs. A challenge CX606 had also been set up at the same location - and I think the great majority of the attendees actually did the action required by the challenge (which was great fun!) - but it's only had 10 'completed' logs. I haven't logged it, I'm avoiding challenges until (if ever) the aforementioned improvements are made.

[+CanadianRockies]

Challenges are no different than vaguely similar to Virtual and Locationless caches of the past...

Fixed it for you.

[+bifjamod]

I'm working on a placement for a new multi and may use a challenge cache as a hint to help find the cache.

 

Great idea!

[+bifjamod]

I like the challenges, and agree it gives me a reason to get up and out - or perhaps it would be better to say it gives me additional reason to get out. Most of the points folks have given here are certainly valid, and I understand gc purists will not participate - that's OK. Similar to 'geodarts' mention of iSpy, I also play several scavenger games - all are different, and fun in their own way. It may be that Groundspeak needs to launch Challenges in a separate platform (think scvngr, which is similar). This may be something Groundspeak is looking to challenge as part of their motivation to launch the initiative. Give it some time; Groundspeak brought about great geocaching, but it took time, and will continue to evolve. Happy exploration!

Edited October 4, 2011 by bifjamod

[+JL_HSTRE]

As much as I would like real Virtuals to come back, if anything Challenges seem to have demonstrated how much of a nightmare quality control would be if Virtuals returned.

 

--For challenges to succeed, they need to count in your stats.

 

They do have stats clearly displayed in your profile, but seperately from your cache finds.

 

The backlash against Challenges counting the same as cache finds was massive.

[+res2100]

Challenges are no different than vaguely similar to Virtual and Locationless caches of the past...

Fixed it for you.

No need to fix something that was already accurate. I have created challenges that are the same as a virtual that was in the same spot and gives the visitor the same experience. Only difference is that you don't get a geo smilie, but a challenge completion tick instead that doesn't count in your overall finds.

[+res2100]

As much as I would like real Virtuals to come back, if anything Challenges seem to have demonstrated how much of a nightmare quality control would be if Virtuals returned.

 

--For challenges to succeed, they need to count in your stats.

 

They do have stats clearly displayed in your profile, but seperately from your cache finds.

 

The backlash against Challenges counting the same as cache finds was massive.

Right now Challenges count the same as benchmarks...just an * on your stats. Challenges have never counted as a find. They've never been included in the stats bar. At one point they were included under a total called finds and challenges completed and because some people were vocal, Groundspeak changed this to not include challenges. I bet there are more people out there like myself that want challenges to count in the same way a virtual or locationless did and even more people that could care less either way. I think Groundspeak needs to take action in some way to educate it's members about challenges...I was out with a bunch of cachers recently and I commented that there was a challenge that we walked past and they didn't really know what was involved with the whole challenge concept.

[+CanadianRockies]

Challenges are no different than vaguely similar to Virtual and Locationless caches of the past...

Fixed it for you.

No need to fix something that was already accurate. I have created challenges that are the same as a virtual that was in the same spot and gives the visitor the same experience. Only difference is that you don't get a geo smilie, but a challenge completion tick instead that doesn't count in your overall finds.

So, you're saying there's one difference instead of no differences.

 

Here are just a few other differences that you might want to add:

 

- Challenges don't appear in PQ results.

 

- Challenges don't appear on cache maps.

 

- Ability to search for challenges is much more limited.

 

- Challenges don't have .gpx files that you can download to your GPSr.

 

- Challenge description page limited to 2000 characters.

 

- Challenge description page does not accept HTML.

 

- Challenges aren't reviewed.

 

- Cannot add challenges to watchlist.

 

- Cannot add challenges to ignore list.

 

- Challenges do not have Difficulty or Terrain ratings.

 

- Challenges do not have attributes.

 

- Challenges do not have additional waypoints.

 

- Challenges don't have favorite points.

 

- Challenges require a different mobile app.

 

- Challenges cannot be bookmarked.

 

- Challenges can be archived by geocachers instead of reviewers/owners.

 

- Challenges don't have owners (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Only Groundspeak can delete bogus completions.

 

- - Description page cannot be modified (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Challenges don't appear among your cache hides.

 

- - Cannot require challenge takers to email information to the owner.

 

- - No notification when "logs" are posted to challenges.

 

- - Challenges cannot be temporarily disabled.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Challenges are no different than vaguely similar to Virtual and Locationless caches of the past...

Fixed it for you.

No need to fix something that was already accurate. I have created challenges that are the same as a virtual that was in the same spot and gives the visitor the same experience. Only difference is that you don't get a geo smilie, but a challenge completion tick instead that doesn't count in your overall finds.

So, you're saying there's one difference instead of no differences.

 

Here are just a few other differences that you might want to add:

 

- Challenges don't appear in PQ results.

 

- Challenges don't appear on cache maps.

 

- Ability to search for challenges is much more limited.

 

- Challenges don't have .gpx files that you can download to your GPSr.

 

- Challenge description page limited to 2000 characters.

 

- Challenge description page does not accept HTML.

 

- Challenges aren't reviewed.

 

- Cannot add challenges to watchlist.

 

- Cannot add challenges to ignore list.

 

- Challenges do not have Difficulty or Terrain ratings.

 

- Challenges do not have attributes.

 

- Challenges do not have additional waypoints.

 

- Challenges don't have favorite points.

 

- Challenges require a different mobile app.

 

- Challenges cannot be bookmarked.

 

- Challenges can be archived by geocachers instead of reviewers/owners.

 

- Challenges don't have owners (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Only Groundspeak can delete bogus completions.

 

- - Description page cannot be modified (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Challenges don't appear among your cache hides.

 

- - Cannot require challenge takers to email information to the owner.

 

- - No notification when "logs" are posted to challenges.

 

- - Challenges cannot be temporarily disabled.

 

But look on the bright side --- They can be armchair/vacation creations and armchair logged with no repercussions.

 

John

[+res2100]

CanadianRockies, all the things you list are things that can/need to be improved on with challenges and I hope that Groundspeak does follow through with their plans and beyond to improve the system.

 

I've created 33 challenges so far and completed 9 (all worldwide). I hope to create more, but I've stopped in the past week and hope to continue again once there's some new functionallity and interest in the community.

[+Lil Devil]

I posted this in another forum, but I'll repeat it here.

 

For me, it's about ease of getting the data into my GPS. I don't find waymarks because I'd have to run another query to get them. I don't find challenges because there isn't a query to get them.

 

What I want is to run one query, and get geocaches, waymarks, challenges, and maybe even benchmarks, all at the same time. That's the one thing that will get me to play these other games.

[+briansnat]

I think the moment they took the smiley away for challenges was the minute they were destined for the scrap heap of geo-history.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I think the moment they took the smiley away for challenges was the minute they were destined for the scrap heap of geo-history.

 

Having such a small search radius doesn't help situation. It would be nice if you could search a distance equal to what you can search for a cache.

 

John

[+t4e]

As much as I would like real Virtuals to come back, if anything Challenges seem to have demonstrated how much of a nightmare quality control would be if Virtuals returned.

 

--For challenges to succeed, they need to count in your stats.

 

They do have stats clearly displayed in your profile, but seperately from your cache finds.

 

The backlash against Challenges counting the same as cache finds was massive.

 

and the point of that was?

 

those that complained are the ones that hate the whole concept of Challenges, and as such they will never complete one....so what is the difference to them if they count or not?...i get the feeling was only a numbers concern...

[+Manville Possum]

And they say it's not about the numbers? I think it is, and this new group of phone cachers are really hooked on them. I gotta go, my GPS is ringing and I'm at work, so I must answer.

[+Q10]

I liked the idea from the beginning. Created one at once. But then I discovered, that I didn't own the challenge. There came some bogus log I couldn't delete. And now my found challenges are starting to disappear from my challenge page due to this: "Challenges You've Completed (Last 30 days)". It's now over 30 days since I completed my first challenge. Now I can't even find challenge I have completed on my pages. I have to find them again in a search.

 

I liked the idea from the beginning ...

[+geodarts]

 

and the point of that was?

 

those that complained are the ones that hate the whole concept of Challenges, and as such they will never complete one....so what is the difference to them if they count or not?...i get the feeling was only a numbers concern...

 

Not completely -- for me issues regarding challenge creation are more important than issues about their completion.

 

I was very glad when Jeremy announced that the then-upcoming challenges would be counted as "finds" because I had hoped that they would be integrated as part of this game and I wanted to see them become a true replacement for virtuals. There are large areas where I live where caching is not allowed and I had several ideas for challenges that would take you into some of the secret or historical locations there.

 

Instead, Challenges turned out to be something much different -- a game where the use of the gpsr was not integral to the majority I saw being created; where there was no ownership and responsibility; no requirement for on-site visits for either creating or completing a challenge; no firm guidelines; ALR type of tasks rather than something approaching a "find." So I did not feel like it was extending this game, allowing it to be played in areas where traditional caching is not appropriate, or taking this game into new directions.

 

In the end, I was equally glad when Groundspeak decided to separate challenges from caching finds.

 

I think its great if people want to do challenges, just as it is great if people want to benchmark, waymark, or play the Mighty Egg game (should they still have it on their iphone). But that does not mean I do not want to see all of that become incorporated into this game. To do that, challenges would have to be completely redesigned -- and afterward I might add proximity and limitations on the total number a person can create. In any event, I do not see Groundspeak making that kind of shift.

Edited October 4, 2011 by geodarts

[AZcachemeister]

 

Here are just a few other differences that you might want to add:

 

- Challenges don't appear in PQ results.

 

- Challenges don't appear on cache maps.

 

- Ability to search for challenges is much more limited.

 

- Challenges don't have .gpx files that you can download to your GPSr.

 

- Challenge description page limited to 2000 characters.

 

- Challenge description page does not accept HTML.

 

- Challenges aren't reviewed.

 

- Cannot add challenges to watchlist.

 

- Cannot add challenges to ignore list.

 

- Challenges do not have Difficulty or Terrain ratings.

 

- Challenges do not have attributes.

 

- Challenges do not have additional waypoints.

 

- Challenges don't have favorite points.

 

- Challenges require a different mobile app.

 

- Challenges cannot be bookmarked.

 

- Challenges can be archived by geocachers instead of reviewers/owners.

 

- Challenges don't have owners (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Only Groundspeak can delete bogus completions.

 

- - Description page cannot be modified (at least after 24 hours).

 

- - Challenges don't appear among your cache hides.

 

- - Cannot require challenge takers to email information to the owner.

 

- - No notification when "logs" are posted to challenges.

 

- - Challenges cannot be temporarily disabled.

 

All of this and more...

It's a MAGOR issue

 

 

For me, it's about ease of getting the data into my GPS. I don't find waymarks because I'd have to run another query to get them. I don't find challenges because there isn't a query to get them.

 

What I want is to run one query, and get geocaches, waymarks, challenges, and maybe even benchmarks, all at the same time. That's the one thing that will get me to play these other games.

There is the option of a query for Whymarks?

 

I think the moment they took the smiley away for challenges was the minute they were destined for the scrap heap of geo-history.

 

Given the silliness of some of the worldwide Challenges created as examples, it's no wonder there was a revolt against counting them as finds. Kiss a Frog? Really?? I don't think that equates with finding even the lowliest LPC out there.

 

I liked the idea from the beginning ...

 

Me too, but the execution has left much to be desired.

 

Only time will tell if any of the promised improvements will actually get done.

In the meantime, I'm taking Jeremy's advice, "If you don't like them, don't participate"

[+Zop]

I've looked at the challenges in my area and not one has me impressed nor interested in performing some inane stunt to log a completion. One, "Find the Brick" http://coord.info/CX4F5 in Petaluma, CA can't even be played as the object to find doesn't even exist.

 

I'm a geocacher. That's all. I want to go out and find something substantial. But then I'm not even a fan of the old virtuals but at least with them I have seen some redeeming value and will actually log one every now and then.

[+geodarts]

I've looked at the challenges in my area and not one has me impressed nor interested in performing some inane stunt to log a completion. One, "Find the Brick" http://coord.info/CX4F5 in Petaluma, CA can't even be played as the object to find doesn't even exist.

 

Since that has been archived, does it prove that the community-review system works?

[+Manville Possum]

I've looked at the challenges in my area and not one has me impressed nor interested in performing some inane stunt to log a completion. One, "Find the Brick" http://coord.info/CX4F5 in Petaluma, CA can't even be played as the object to find doesn't even exist.

 

Since that has been archived, does it prove that the community-review system works?

What about bogus logs? What can be done about that?