Camping events logging requirements

[+Happy Humphrey]

I have always assumed that events were originally classed as caches so that TBs and coins could be dropped into them.

 

Back in ancient times, we used to have a Cheshire "non-event" meeting for geocachers that wasn't a cache but people turned up anyway despite the lack of smiley and the odd name! We just used a nearby cache to virtually deposit trackables. I agree that events are not caches and shouldn't really be counted as such.

I remember the "non-event" (even though I missed it). Great idea!

 

You're probably right about the trackables; but again, this hasn't worked very well either. People "virtually" drop trackables into the event even though physically they are nowhere near the location at the time. Then, some get mixed up and end up stuck in the "event" until someone can locate them, causing another nuisance for the event organiser. Others get "discovered" even though they were never actually seen by the cacher (they were just on a list passed around at the event).

It would be better if the trackables were simply "grabbed" from the previous keeper rather than ever being logged into the event. Obviously, one could mention in the log that they changed hands at an event.

Now that many people have logged hundreds of trackables, the sight of a long list of supposedly resident geocoins in not likely to attract extra attendees.

[+Mad H@ter]

I tend to agree. Entrance fees or the need for specialist equipment are fine and you can make up your mind whether the tick is worth the cost BUT I'd say it's clear that there should be no ALRs such as sleeping in a tent or taking part in activities.

 

Event organisers who seek to tag unecessary ALRs onto to basic requirement to sign the log are a large part of the problem IMO.

With a camping event on a site that has restricted access (i.e. only campers allowed on site) I do not see the camping as an ALR, but it may mean that a cacher may have to pay camping fees (or visitor fees) to access the site and then go home early without putting up a tent. Entrance fees to events have always been forbidden in the UK to my knowledge, but if what Andalusite states above is UK reviewer policy then that puts a whole new perspective on this.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

I tend to agree. Entrance fees or the need for specialist equipment are fine and you can make up your mind whether the tick is worth the cost BUT I'd say it's clear that there should be no ALRs such as sleeping in a tent or taking part in activities.

 

Event organisers who seek to tag unecessary ALRs onto to basic requirement to sign the log are a large part of the problem IMO.

With a camping event on a site that has restricted access (i.e. only campers allowed on site) I do not see the camping as an ALR, but it may mean that a cacher may have to pay camping fees (or visitor fees) to access the site and then go home early without putting up a tent. Entrance fees to events have always been forbidden in the UK to my knowledge, but if what Andalusite states above is UK reviewer policy then that puts a whole new perspective on this.

 

Clarification, up to 2008/9 the UK Reviewers believed that the Organiser could not charge to cover reasonable costs, after clarification off Groundspeak. We discovered that a reasonable charge may be made to cover appropriate costs. So a Campsite which has a Day Visitor Fee, is treated the same as a Car Parking Fee. We don't concern ourselves how people get to a event, just about the event it's self.

 

However forcing someone to Camp to attend is not covering "Reasonable Costs" the Organiser can charge each person a reasonable fee if they were hiring out the Activity Barn on Site for those attending to use, or for Food at a BBQ or other food and drink. Charging to Camp to attend, is not covering "reasonable Costs" it is a ALR which is being charged for. As the Organiser is "Forcing" Attendee's to Camp

 

Hypothetical Scenario, someone organises a Camping Event and required all attending to Camp. However the Site will only allow or is only licensed for Tents, no Caravans. Now you have someone who wishes to attend in their Caravan, that makes the Event immediately exclusive to those Camping in Tents. So then alone you have not only excluded those who do not wish to, or are unable to Camp in Tents, you've also excluded those who wish to attend and Camp. But are Caravan Owners.

 

So please explain why you and others your acquainted with, wish to require only those camping, attend the events you organise that have a Camping Element? Are you trying to make the events exclusive clubs, by refusing non camper attendance?

 

Personally I've attended a number of Camping Events, where the Open to All element was on-site as a Day Visitor. I've stayed to the early hours before driving home. I've attended The Gathering In the Glens as a Non Camper. We stopped on a Caravan Site over 20 miles away (in fact that was the closest Caravan Site). That involved driving 2 miles each way down a single track Lane and 18 miles each way down a B road. If that event had been only open to On-Site Campers, I would not have been able to attend.

 

I'm aware of a number of other community Members who attend Camping Events as Day visitors, and who put in a number of hours attending each one. So you wish to spoil the chance of attending for those with no wish to Camp, because one or two have no interest in interacting with other Community Members who Attend the Events. Then again I've heard from those who have camped at events on a regular basis, and who have described those camping as going into small exclusive cliques, and who have no interest in interacting with others who are attending and camping. So using the excuse that it forces those attending to spend more than 5 minutes at the event, does no mean that those attending will interact with each other in anyway. All it means is that the event is a Small clique. Events are about the community coming together and socialising.

 

Dave (Personal Opinion!)

[+Frank Broughton]

Sounds like someones camping event stunk and they are not happy about it!?!

[+Us 4 and Jess]

I tend to agree. Entrance fees or the need for specialist equipment are fine and you can make up your mind whether the tick is worth the cost BUT I'd say it's clear that there should be no ALRs such as sleeping in a tent or taking part in activities.

 

Event organisers who seek to tag unecessary ALRs onto to basic requirement to sign the log are a large part of the problem IMO.

With a camping event on a site that has restricted access (i.e. only campers allowed on site) I do not see the camping as an ALR, but it may mean that a cacher may have to pay camping fees (or visitor fees) to access the site and then go home early without putting up a tent. Entrance fees to events have always been forbidden in the UK to my knowledge, but if what Andalusite states above is UK reviewer policy then that puts a whole new perspective on this.

 

Clarification, up to 2008/9 the UK Reviewers believed that the Organiser could not charge to cover reasonable costs, after clarification off Groundspeak. We discovered that a reasonable charge may be made to cover appropriate costs. So a Campsite which has a Day Visitor Fee, is treated the same as a Car Parking Fee. We don't concern ourselves how people get to a event, just about the event it's self.

 

However forcing someone to Camp to attend is not covering "Reasonable Costs" the Organiser can charge each person a reasonable fee if they were hiring out the Activity Barn on Site for those attending to use, or for Food at a BBQ or other food and drink. Charging to Camp to attend, is not covering "reasonable Costs" it is a ALR which is being charged for. As the Organiser is "Forcing" Attendee's to Camp

 

Hypothetical Scenario, someone organises a Camping Event and required all attending to Camp. However the Site will only allow or is only licensed for Tents, no Caravans. Now you have someone who wishes to attend in their Caravan, that makes the Event immediately exclusive to those Camping in Tents. So then alone you have not only excluded those who do not wish to, or are unable to Camp in Tents, you've also excluded those who wish to attend and Camp. But are Caravan Owners.

 

So please explain why you and others your acquainted with, wish to require only those camping, attend the events you organise that have a Camping Element? Are you trying to make the events exclusive clubs, by refusing non camper attendance?

 

Personally I've attended a number of Camping Events, where the Open to All element was on-site as a Day Visitor. I've stayed to the early hours before driving home. I've attended The Gathering In the Glens as a Non Camper. We stopped on a Caravan Site over 20 miles away (in fact that was the closest Caravan Site). That involved driving 2 miles each way down a single track Lane and 18 miles each way down a B road. If that event had been only open to On-Site Campers, I would not have been able to attend.

 

I'm aware of a number of other community Members who attend Camping Events as Day visitors, and who put in a number of hours attending each one. So you wish to spoil the chance of attending for those with no wish to Camp, because one or two have no interest in interacting with other Community Members who Attend the Events. Then again I've heard from those who have camped at events on a regular basis, and who have described those camping as going into small exclusive cliques, and who have no interest in interacting with others who are attending and camping. So using the excuse that it forces those attending to spend more than 5 minutes at the event, does no mean that those attending will interact with each other in anyway. All it means is that the event is a Small clique. Events are about the community coming together and socialising.

 

Dave (Personal Opinion!)

 

I think that was very well said and explained Dave

 

The reason we stopped going to camping events was because of all the cliques, the same groups/friends/cliques sit together at most events and folks who do not go camping events regularly or who are not in with the "it" crowd are excluded, very few people go out of their way to make newbies/outsiders feel welcome.

This thread sounds to me like.....I want my friends at my event and the rest of you can bugga off!!

 

The way I look at it there are two options

 

1) You have a camping event that is open to anyone and everyone, whether they want to camp or pop in for 5 minutes!

2) You phone/email your clique of friends and go camping together but it is not an event.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Us 4 and Jess

[nobby.nobbs]

Thanks for your opinion Dave and andalucite. This thread was due to a few people having conversations over several events and is nothing to do with excluding people, secret little ingroups of friends or anything similar. It was to try and understand why camping events appeared to be under a constraint that other events weren't.

I appreciate the clarification that reasonable fees are allowable.

 

This issue was that it was generally believed that it would not be possible to EVER get a camping event listed if the site charged for day visitors. It was therefore the case that sometimes an event at a great site wouldn't be allowed and a seperate event held so that those not able to or those not wishing to pay the entry fee could log the event. So some sites were written off the potential list. I listed one event that was held at brownsea island in dorset. GC30D5A on that site they list the charges that a person would have to pay for the ferry rides over to the island and then a seperate landing fee for all people not members of the national trust I'm not sure how this is not excluding those people not members of the national trust or those not willing to pay the landing fee? and how the landing fee for entry onto the island is in any way different from the fee charged to enter the camp site

national trust costs for landing this site show that a family would be expected to pay approx £15 to come onto the island to log the event, as well as the costs of the ferry. This is quite close to the fees charged to camp for the night at lots of the camping events I have attended.

 

So all that I am asking in essence is that it is clearly stated that it is possible to arrange a camping event at any campsite that charges a fee of, for instance, less than £20 for entrance to the site. I would hope that it wouldn't be very often that this would be needed to be used , but that it will leave open organisers to not have to stress about running a seperate actual event down the road at a pub.

 

I would expect it would be rare that the site would charge much more than a nominal fee for a day visitor and thus leave everyone free to set up the events on the site for everyone campers and visitors to enjoy and hopefully encourage more to camp next time because they get to see what it's like on the site and not what the local pub looks like.

 

I'll take back the request that we be able to almost insist that people camp, thus hopefully allowing the underlying thread that I am trying to exclude people or have a little clique of friends etc etc etc.

[+HazelS]

Well Said, Nobby.Nobbs....

 

I also would like to add that I don't think I've ever heard of people coming to a camping event and not feeling welcommed, in fact, I'd say it was the opposite. There have been so many new campers on the scene this year and I know most regular campers have gone out of their way to make them welcome, and to give them a hand errecting tents and the like.

 

In fact, I know of several day visitors to campsites who, when they've expressed an interest in camping, I've gone home and emailed them a list of items they would need for camping!!! I'm not sure that can be misconstrued as making people unwelcome!!

 

I'd just like to see day visitors be that - DAY visitors - come along for longer than 5 minutes, stay a while, enjoy the camping scene..... I know I've met some of my very best friends through the geo-camping scene... AND we're certainly not cliquey, nor do we exclude people!!

[+Mad H@ter]

Clarification, up to 2008/9 the UK Reviewers believed that the Organiser could not charge to cover reasonable costs, after clarification off Groundspeak. We discovered that a reasonable charge may be made to cover appropriate costs. So a Campsite which has a Day Visitor Fee, is treated the same as a Car Parking Fee. We don't concern ourselves how people get to a event, just about the event it's self.

Well I have to say that is good news to have that misunderstanding of the guidelines sorted; in an official capacity? It would appear that a number of long standing event organisers were not aware of this change to UK guidelines/rules, I think we need to think about how such changes can be communicated better.

However forcing someone to Camp to attend is not covering "Reasonable Costs" the Organiser can charge each person a reasonable fee if they were hiring out the Activity Barn on Site for those attending to use, or for Food at a BBQ or other food and drink. Charging to Camp to attend, is not covering "reasonable Costs" it is a ALR which is being charged for. As the Organiser is "Forcing" Attendee's to Camp

But that is pretty much the gist of this thread (well half of it), why are UK reviewers insisting that camping events are open to all when there does not appear to be anything in Groundspeak's guidelines to suggest that this is the case?

Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

Hypothetical Scenario, someone organises a Camping Event and required all attending to Camp. However the Site will only allow or is only licensed for Tents, no Caravans. Now you have someone who wishes to attend in their Caravan, that makes the Event immediately exclusive to those Camping in Tents. So then alone you have not only excluded those who do not wish to, or are unable to Camp in Tents, you've also excluded those who wish to attend and Camp. But are Caravan Owners.

Irrelevant and just clouding the issue which sadly is what always seems to happen when we have discussions on implementation/interpretation of Groundspeak guidelines. If it is a caravan/tent only site then yes some may not be able to attend easily, but then I go back to my point above.

So please explain why you and others your acquainted with, wish to require only those camping, attend the events you organise that have a Camping Element? Are you trying to make the events exclusive clubs, by refusing non camper attendance?

Not sure if this was aimed at me, but as it was quoting me then I can only assume it is. I have made it quite clear in this thread that I am more than happy and would encourage attendance by non-campers where possible. In fact it is the norm for this to be possible so we are really only talking about a few instances.

Personally I've attended a number of Camping Events, where the Open to All element was on-site as a Day Visitor. I've stayed to the early hours before driving home. I've attended The Gathering In the Glens as a Non Camper. We stopped on a Caravan Site over 20 miles away (in fact that was the closest Caravan Site). That involved driving 2 miles each way down a single track Lane and 18 miles each way down a B road. If that event had been only open to On-Site Campers, I would not have been able to attend.

Is this really such a big deal, there's always another event soon. It is no different from a physical geocache that I am not equipped and/or qualified to attempt i.e. GC14RPA.

I'm aware of a number of other community Members who attend Camping Events as Day visitors, and who put in a number of hours attending each one. So you wish to spoil the chance of attending for those with no wish to Camp, because one or two have no interest in interacting with other Community Members who Attend the Events.

No, as I said above, I would encourage them to attend and probably have a great time. But then only if possible, we can't all do everything can we and I have yet to see anything in the guidelines that say that we should all be able to.

Then again I've heard from those who have camped at events on a regular basis, and who have described those camping as going into small exclusive cliques, and who have no interest in interacting with others who are attending and camping. So using the excuse that it forces those attending to spend more than 5 minutes at the event, does no mean that those attending will interact with each other in anyway. All it means is that the event is a Small clique. Events are about the community coming together and socialising.

Come on Dave, now let not start trying to suggest that all campers are a cliquey bunch who wont mix or let newcomers in. We can all quote events of all types where this happens but IMHE it happens far less at camping events than any other type.

Dave (Personal Opinion!)

How about an official response, that would make it more meaningful

Edited October 5, 2011 by Mad H@ter

[+Happy Humphrey]

...

However forcing someone to Camp to attend is not covering "Reasonable Costs" the Organiser can charge each person a reasonable fee if they were hiring out the Activity Barn on Site for those attending to use, or for Food at a BBQ or other food and drink. Charging to Camp to attend, is not covering "reasonable Costs" it is a ALR which is being charged for. As the Organiser is "Forcing" Attendee's to Camp

...

It's a confusing topic, and this bit confuses me more than most of it.

 

Was someone suggesting that the organiser might force people to camp? I read it that there are campsites which don't have a "day visitor" arrangement. So the entry fee to the camp site will seem a bit steep to those who aren't staying overnight, as it will be the same as if you were camping. That's not something that the organiser is attempting to force on people, simply that the campsite has this rule. I'd hope that the organiser would try and get that charge waived, but the campsite owner makes the rules. Point is that the organiser is not charging anyone anything, so the "Reasonable Costs" ruling has no relevance and there is no ALR.

 

If it can be demonstrated that the organiser went out of his way to select a campsite mainly because it didn't allow day visitors, the event would fail the "member's club" test and not be listed (I'd hope).

[+The Other Stu]

Sounds like someones camping event stunk and they are not happy about it!?!

 

Firstly, I know it's not my thread and I'm sure Nobby Nobbs could hold his own on this one....

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. If truth be known Nobby Nobbs held an unofficial camping event. Quite a few people attended. It wasn't necessarily cliquey and a lot of people were invited, in fact I'm sure in the future we'll open them up via facebook groups to anyone who is a member of the UK Geocaching Camping group (free to enter an join).

There have been some that haven't been listed on GC.com by other people. I didn't know the people, but I considered going. Unfortunately, we've done about 10 this year and as I'm sure you can imagine, running a campervan and camping every other weekend doesn't come cheap!

 

Anyways, back to the thread.

 

Whilst I understand that we can have day charges for campers, I have another query?

 

I recently held a camping event which coincided with my Birthday. Because of this, I picked up the tab for the food/hall in the evening. However, in the future, we may hold this event again, but have a charge to attend which will include a Buffet. There will be of course camping on site for those who want it for a small additional charge, but it's not mandatory. Are we saying that that would be OK?

 

The other thing is what if I hold a camping event on a campsite that doesn't allow day visitors? As someone said, many don't allow day visitors (go have a look at UKcampsite).

[+Andalusite]

 

So all that I am asking in essence is that it is clearly stated that it is possible to arrange a camping event at any campsite that charges a fee of, for instance, less than £20 for entrance to the site.

 

 

It will not, because £20 is not a reasonable charge for day visitors.

[+t4e]

or a contribution to cover costs of providing food for a BBQ - But it must be just to cover their costs, not to make a profit.

 

 

Thats a big can of worms you're opening

 

Are they allowed to insist that you eat from their BBQ and pay for it or can you log your attendance without eating

 

not a can of worms at all

 

you don't have to force anyone into doing anything

at the 10 Years! event we hosted we provided free food, paid for the shelter rental and had prizes too

in addition we had more prizes available to be won thru a raffle that was mainly intended to cover some of our costs but was totally optional

[nobby.nobbs]

 

So all that I am asking in essence is that it is clearly stated that it is possible to arrange a camping event at any campsite that charges a fee of, for instance, less than £20 for entrance to the site.

 

 

It will not, because £20 is not a reasonable charge for day visitors.

 

And yet, one reviewer did consider that amount to be a reasonable fee to charge people to attend the event at brownsea island.

How do we resolve this?

In the example of camping events a fee of this size would be a rare occasion. Yet an event at a national trust site would nearly always.

Events have been published that required people to spend that much. I'm happy that they do, I can choose whether or not to pay it. Why is camping under a different rule?

[+Andalusite]

For those who have asked, this is what the Knowledge Books (which were set up to help clarify and explain the guidelines have to say about events;

 

" Occasionally, an individual or a geocaching organizations may designate a time and location to meet and discuss geocaching. We call these Event Caches. They are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers."

 

Note the "open to all" bit.

 

Sorry for the ropey post but I'm doing this on the phone as I'm in work (which is a right pain and takes so much longer than using a proper computer)

 

Andalusite

[+Andalusite]

To clarify my late-night post;

 

£20 is not a reasonable charge to impose on day visitors to a campsite - it's more than the cost of pitching a small tent at many campsites!

 

If a campsite doesn't have day visitor fees listed on it's website, then a 'reasonable' amount is probably no more than £2-3 although this would depend on the circumstances.

 

If an event is an organised trip to an island then the costs are whatever they are depending on how an attendee decides to do it, be it taking the ferry, paddling a kayak or arriving by helicopter. Whilst you as a host can negotiate a reduced fee for your group (hopefully) it is not down to the host to dictate how people must arrive or how much they must spend.

[+uktim]

 

So all that I am asking in essence is that it is clearly stated that it is possible to arrange a camping event at any campsite that charges a fee of, for instance, less than £20 for entrance to the site.

 

 

It will not, because £20 is not a reasonable charge for day visitors.

 

And yet, one reviewer did consider that amount to be a reasonable fee to charge people to attend the event at brownsea island.

How do we resolve this?

In the example of camping events a fee of this size would be a rare occasion. Yet an event at a national trust site would nearly always.

Events have been published that required people to spend that much. I'm happy that they do, I can choose whether or not to pay it. Why is camping under a different rule?

 

The event is the event, travel and accomodation choices are a seperate issue. Would you hold an event on the bus to the venue or in your hotel room?

[nobby.nobbs]

I must have explained that wrong.

There was the costs of travel to the island, but I was talking about the entrance fee of the island. I could not attend that event without paying that fee no matter if I grew wings. So the entrance fee. The entrance costs to access the location was approx £15 for a family. Which equates to an entrance fee onto a campsite.

 

Leaving a grey area of "reasonable fees" will only cause problems in the future.

[+uktim]

I must have explained that wrong.

There was the costs of travel to the island, but I was talking about the entrance fee of the island. I could not attend that event without paying that fee no matter if I grew wings. So the entrance fee. The entrance costs to access the location was approx £15 for a family. Which equates to an entrance fee onto a campsite.

 

Leaving a grey area of "reasonable fees" will only cause problems in the future.

 

Brownsea Island is a visitor attraction, a campsite is merely a place to stay. It's a plot to pitch a tent and a toilet/shower block. Do you want everyone to come to the toilet with you

[+keehotee]

I must have explained that wrong.

There was the costs of travel to the island, but I was talking about the entrance fee of the island. I could not attend that event without paying that fee no matter if I grew wings. So the entrance fee. The entrance costs to access the location was approx £15 for a family. Which equates to an entrance fee onto a campsite.

 

Leaving a grey area of "reasonable fees" will only cause problems in the future.

 

Brownsea Island is a visitor attraction, a campsite is merely a place to stay. It's a plot to pitch a tent and a toilet/shower block. Do you want everyone to come to the toilet with you

 

Brownsea Island is also run (well, the public half of it) by a not-for-profit organisation, which I believe is one of the conditions for allowing an entrance fee to find a cache or visit an event?

[nobby.nobbs]

By the way, thanks andalusite for entering into the discussion and trying to resolve the situation .

So how do we stand on a campsite which does not allow non campers ?

Again isn't this a similar situation where if I don't want to camp I don't attend that event or if I don't want to travel via boat I don't attend that event.

It is open to all, anyone CAN attend if they choose to camp. Just like I CAN attend an event that involves a boat trip if I choose to do that.

No one is setting out to find campsite that do not allow day visitors. It just happens that sometimes they don't and there's no easy alternative. In those rare events it should be ok to still list the event.

[+Andalusite]

Sorry. I thought you meant £20 per person.

 

What I'd consider 'reasonable' is whatever the campsite lists on it's webpage as the rate for day visitors.

 

If the campsite has no stated fees I'd expect it to be no more than £2-5 per vehicle per day.

 

The important thing is that day visitors must be able to attend.

[Deceangi]

Joint Post between Andalusite and myself, after we had a brief discussion

Slaying the mythical beasts part one – events

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion and urban myth surrounding geocaching events

in the UK.

 

It seems about time for the UK reviewers to come out of the bunker and try to

provide a bit of explanation, hopefully ‘slaying’ a few mythical beasts and clarifying

what is and isn’t going to fly, and why.

 

When reading the following please, please bear in mind that the reviewers are not

evil, do not have any hidden agendas or vendettas (shocking, I know!) and that they

prefer to publish caches rather than refuse them.

 

Please also remember when picking it apart that this is not a legal document but

just an attempt to clear the waters and make it a bit easier (or at least easier to

understand) for those wanting to host events.

 

Myth 1 – it is the camping, drinking or flashing that makes the event

 

Well, yes, it is - but no, it isn’t!

 

The most fundamental misconception is that there is such a thing as a ‘geocaching

camping event’, ‘geocaching pub event’, or a ‘geocaching walking event’.

 

This is incorrect.

 

Like Nessie, The ‘geocaching camping event’, ‘geocaching pub event’

or ‘geocaching walking event’ are mythical beasts that do not exist, no matter how

many people believe otherwise.

 

The bits that are the most fun (drinking, walking, abseiling, camping etc.) are the

least important bits as far as getting the event published are concerned – indeed, the

fun bits often get in the way of the geocaching event being published!

 

Don’t believe me?

 

Check the guidelines and cache submittal form.

 

There is no ‘camping event’ cache type, no ‘walking event’ cache type and (sadly)

no ‘pub event’ cache type.

 

There is only one, the humble ‘event cache’.

 

As a result, the same guidelines apply to all events, however they are dressed up by

the owners, in the same way that the same guidelines apply to all traditional caches

 

regardless of whether they are a nano on a park bench or a bespoke, velvet-lined

crate high on a mountain.

 

So what do the guidelines and knowledge books say constitute a geocaching event?

 

The cache listing guidelines say this about event caches;

“Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to

other geocachers.”

And;

“An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together

geocachers for an organized geocache search. Such group hunts are best organized

using a discussion forum or an email distribution list. While a music concert, a

garage sale, an organized sporting event, a ham radio field day or a town's fireworks

display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are

not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary

attendees are not geocachers.”

The ‘getting started’ section also says this about event caches;

 

The Event Cache page specifies a time for the event and provides coordinates to its

location. After the event, the cache is archived.”

 

Interestingly, the knowledge books (which were set up to provide more information to

help clarify the guidelines) have this to say (emphasis added);

 

“Occasionally, an individual or a geocaching organizations may designate a time

and location to meet and discuss geocaching. We call these Event Caches. They

are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by

geocachers”

 

You see - no mention of pubs, walking, camping or flashing anywhere!

 

What this means is that in order to be publishable the guidelines ‘require’ any and all

geocaching events to be;

 

1. “a gathering of local geocachers” in order to allow them to “discuss geocaching”.

 

2. to held on a specific date and the event page “specifies a time for the event and

provides coordinates to its location”.

 

3. to be “open to other geocachers”.

 

Furthermore, an event cache;

 

4. is not about drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

 

5. Is not about being part of a larger gathering where the organizers and the primary

attendees are not geocachers.

 

As far as getting your geocaching event published the reviewers don’t care if you

want to dress as a pirate, or a Dalek, or an unfeasibly large chicken, or if you want to

drink at a pub, play games in a village hall or camp in a boggy field.

 

The most important thing to bear in mind about an event listing is that it must be

abundantly clear when and where the event is an when the event is, so that local

geocachers can get together and talk about caching.

 

Myth 2 – events have to be ‘open to all’

 

Well, yes, they do - but no, they don’t.

 

Saying that all events have to be open to ‘all’ is plain daft. If this was true, there

would be no events at all!

 

I cannot hope afford to hop over to (for example) Wisconsin for the evening to attend

a random event whilst at the same time nipping off to New Zealand for another event

so clearly these events are not open to all!

 

When we say that events must be ‘open to all’ what we mean is that an event

organiser cannot arbitrarily dictate or limit who can or cannot attend their event.

 

‘Open to all’ is just a shorthand way of saying this and we apologise if people have

misconstrued this.

 

The important point is that cachers should be free to ‘cache within their abilities’ - be

they physical, mental or fiscal - when deciding whether to attend an event or not.

 

In this very important respect events are no different to any other cache type and

arbitrary, owner-imposed Additional Logging Requirements (ALRs) will not be

tolerated or condoned.

 

It is not down to a cache owner to dictate how a cache is attempted and geocaching

event caches are no different.

 

Some examples?

 

1. If someone doesn’t wish to walk into a pub for an event because they are firm

believer an abstention that is their choice.

 

2. If someone doesn’t wish to walk into a church hall for an event on religious

grounds that is their own choice.

 

3. If someone doesn’t wish to climb to the top of a mountain for an event that is

their choice.

 

4. If someone doesn’t want to drive or walk or cycle to an event in a field (where

some people happen to be camping) then that is their own choice.

 

Hosting an event where you, as the event organiser deliberately bar a certain section

of the population through arbitrary choice is not right and will not be allowed.

 

Some examples of geocaching events which wouldn’t be allowed?

 

1. An event in your own back garden that only your friends are allowed to attend.

 

2. An event in a church hall that states “Jews, Muslims and gypsies are not

welcome”.

 

3. An event in a pub that states “Women, tee-totallers, Liverpool fans and lager

drinkers not welcome”.

 

4. An event in an easy to get to field that states “only campers may attend”.

 

5. An event on the top of a mountain that states “people wearing Regatta

clothing may not attend.”

 

You can, however, have an event that is difficult to get to, such as a high terrain

breakfast on a remote mountain, a lunchtime get together on an island or a day

spent exploring old mine workings as a group.

 

Such an event is what is commonly known as ‘fun’ or ‘a bit of a lark’.

 

If you have an event on a mountain top then that is fine - it is people’s own choice

whether to clamber up to the event or use a quad bike (or drop in by helicopter).

 

If you want to host an event on an island that is fine – people can choose how to

get there (most will pay to go on the ferry but some may choose to paddle there by

kayak).

 

If you want to have an underground event that is fine (don’t forget the requirement

for GPS usage though!) as it is up to people to choose for themselves whether to

venture into the dark.

 

If you want to have an event in the middle of nowhere 20 miles (that’s 32 kilometres

for the kids!) from the nearest road that’s fine, but you can only suggest, not require,

that people camp out for the night. If someone can yomp to the event, say ‘hi’, have

a coffee and then yomp straight back to the car then more power to them!

 

If you want to have an event in a field (where you happen to be camping) then that is

fine, but if the owner of the field won’t let non-campers attend the event then you will

need to find a different field.

 

In essence, the key, fundamental point is that if someone is physically able to get to

 

the location of any cache and make the find, be it a traditional, multi or event cache

etc. then they should be free to do so and log the find.

 

Myth 3 – you cannot charge for event attendance.

 

Another UK-only urban myth is that you ‘cannot’ charge event attendees.

 

This is not correct.

 

You can charge admission for an event, even (especially?) a Mega event, to cover

costs such as venue, parking, catering etc.

 

What you cannot do is make a profit from such admission charges.

 

This is a bit awkward and you cannot get around this by stating that you will give

any ‘accidental’ profits to charity ‘X’ – this will be seen as trying to fund raise by the

back door and be refused as having an agenda (sorry about that!).

 

I’d suggest that if an event does make a profit then the monies should be offered as

a raffle prize on the day to those who paid them in the first place.

 

The UK-only ‘rule’ that you cannot charge for events is a ‘rule’ created back in the

dim and distant past by the UK caching community itself that has somehow become

taken as gospel.

 

This ‘rule’ is not official in any way and is not one endorsed or supported by

Groundspeak or the UK Reviewers, and an event would not be refused for charging

a reasonable fee.

 

Finally, geocaching challenges and events

 

The guidelines for geocaching challenges are much, much more relaxed and a

geocaching challenge activity challenge to the effect of ‘camp at site ‘X’ on date ‘Y’

would be perfectly fine…and probably quite a lot of fun!

 

Deceangi

On behalf of Andalusite (who's slaving away to prepare for the arrival of the next generation of Geocachers )

[nobby.nobbs]

Thanks Dave. Clear, well said and hopefully everyone will be able to work with it.

[+Happy Humphrey]

It sounds pretty much the same as I understood the rules to be, and it's a well-written summary too.

 

If you want to have an event in a field (where you happen to be camping) then that is

fine, but if the owner of the field won’t let non-campers attend the event then you will

need to find a different field.

 

So no need to worry about making part of the event separate so that non-campers can attend; because you simply cannot hold an event on such a campsite at all. If there are no campsites in the area that allow day visitors, then there's no campsite event. What you'd have to do is hold the event in (say) a pub, and then suggest that people could stay at a particular campsite (which would be, hopefully, just round the corner from the pub).

 

It's not clear from the explanation, but I guess that you can't hold an event at a campsite if the only way that non-campers can attend is by paying the overnight fee. Strictly speaking, few campsites are closed to non-campers altogether but some may insist that you pay for a pitch (as if you're camping). It might then be your choice that you don't pay (because you consider the fee excessive just to allow entry to a field) but if the reviewer were to check, then the chances are that he would also judge it excessive and unreasonable. Therefore if would fall into the "exclusive club" bracket rather than that you've merely excluded yourself.

[+drdick&vick]

Was thinking of organising a 'camping event' with a couple of things to do on the main day, that would involve being there with a tent, and after reading all this lot have decided not to bother.

[+Amberel]

Was thinking of organising a 'camping event' with a couple of things to do on the main day, that would involve being there with a tent, and after reading all this lot have decided not to bother.

Do it as an OpenCaching event . We're probably more flexible than Groundspeak. I'm one of 4 people who would pick it up for review. My own view, though not discussed with the other reviewers, is that if the most suitable camp site didn't allow day visitors that would not stop it being published. But I wouldn't be happy with any effort to deliberately exclude day visitors, and that would include choosing a site because it did not permit day visitors.

 

But you don't get a smiley for events on OpenCaching.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+HazelS]

After all the angst on here over this, my usual "Let's Go Camping in Cheshire" event probably won't be a listed event.

A group of us went camping in early September, and everything was as it would be if we were geo-camping, except the need headache of a separate event...

 

There was no smiley for turning up to camp, did it put people off coming? Did it heck... we turned up, had a great time, cached lots and went home again.... no hassle.

[+keehotee]

 

There was no smiley for turning up to camp, did it put people off coming? Did it heck... we turned up, had a great time, cached lots and went home again.... no hassle.

 

But that's what half of us do when there isn't an event on anyway......

You're missing so much tying everything in to this "geo-caching" malarkey

[+Mad H@ter]

Thanks Deceangi & Andalusite for your clear and well thought out response. Not necessarily what I (and I'm sure a few others) were hoping for but at least there is now no ambiguity and we all know where we stand

[+martlakes]

It seems to me that this is really only a problem IF the event is a cache and can be logged.

If they can be listed but can't be logged then if an organiser makes it expensive or hard to attend - people won't and won't feel they are missing out on something.

 

So, I agree with HH (again!) remove the anomaly. I'd then also allow people to list any event they want that wasn't illegal! Other cachers can then vote with their feet (tent peg).

 

Final point - when reading Groundspeak's rules one must always interpret them through an American lens. Eg. ferry rides and overnight stays make a lot more sense cos things are much further apart.

[+The Other Stu]

I think I speak for Hazey when I say that the Cheshire event is open to anyone who wishes to camp. It's not cliquey and anyone who would want to camp (and has never geocamped) would be most welcome and would be made to feel welcome if they joined in.

 

The problem becomes those who a. don't read the forum and b. don't have bookface (or don't use the geocamping group) because we can't advertise it through the weekly email which is where most people find out about events.

 

Can we advertise it through our own caches? I know we're not allowed to mention commercial things, but surely this doesn't fall into that trap?

Edited October 12, 2011 by The Other Stu

[Deceangi]

what you post as a Note on a cache page, or even as a flyer in a cache container is not a Reviewers concern. Unless the log was offensive or a personal attack. It's up to each Cache Owner to Police the logs to their caches. Personally I've policed logs which were offensive or a personal attack, or on a small number of occasions. When asked to do so by a CO who was entitled to delete the logs, but was frightened of a back lash against them if they did so (that's over and above the actual remit of a Reviewer, but was done as a Customer Service)

 

Of Course there are always Challenges as they do not come under the Cache Guidelines. But are Peer Reviewed. I believe you could set a Challenge of stopping on a specific camp site if not specific dates (but please don't quote me on this, as Challenges are not in the realm of Reviewers. I know very little about them. )

 

Deci

[+metal-bijou]

Is this really such a big deal, there's always another event soon. It is no different from a physical geocache that I am not equipped and/or qualified to attempt i.e. GC14RPA.

 

I'm sure we could get you finding this one if you wish

[+Mad H@ter]

Is this really such a big deal, there's always another event soon. It is no different from a physical geocache that I am not equipped and/or qualified to attempt i.e. GC14RPA.

 

I'm sure we could get you finding this one if you wish

[+Mad H@ter]

Of Course there are always Challenges as they do not come under the Cache Guidelines. But are Peer Reviewed. I believe you could set a Challenge of stopping on a specific camp site if not specific dates (but please don't quote me on this, as Challenges are not in the realm of Reviewers. I know very little about them. )

Like you, I know very little about these, in fact pretty much nothing.

The advantage of making it an Event cache is advertising as it appears on the weekly Groundspeak email, the event calendar and shows up on PQ's. Would I be correct in assuming that this would not be the case if it were a Challenge cache.

[+keehotee]

I'm wondering if - for those of you who put out caches for events - arranging for the caches to be published after the event, but stating on the event page that you'll be giving out cache details/.gpx files to campers would be....

 

1. allowed?

2. enough of a carrot to get people camping?

 

That way you'll be rewarding people who camp, without penalising people who don't.

 

Edied to add - no, with hindsight I wouldn't do this. I'd rather spend the evening with people who were there because they wanted to be there, than people who only put up a tent to get advanced notifications of new caches.....

Edited October 13, 2011 by keehotee

[+Gushoneybun]

The advantage of making it an Event cache is advertising as it appears on the weekly Groundspeak email, the event calendar and shows up on PQ's. Would I be correct in assuming that this would not be the case if it were a Challenge cache.

 

You assumed correctly. Challenges only appear if you search for them or via someone else's caching page but will only appear there after they have completed the challenge so will not be seen until after the event.

[+keehotee]

Of Course there are always Challenges as they do not come under the Cache Guidelines. But are Peer Reviewed. I believe you could set a Challenge of stopping on a specific camp site if not specific dates (but please don't quote me on this, as Challenges are not in the realm of Reviewers. I know very little about them. )

Like you, I know very little about these, in fact pretty much nothing.

The advantage of making it an Event cache is advertising as it appears on the weekly Groundspeak email, the event calendar and shows up on PQ's. Would I be correct in assuming that this would not be the case if it were a Challenge cache.

 

You could still list the event - only the camping element would be a Challenge, and the event itself would be listed as normal and promoted in the notifications.

[+Mad H@ter]

You could still list the event - only the camping element would be a Challenge, and the event itself would be listed as normal and promoted in the notifications.

A very good point, however that takes us right back to the beginning of this thread, ie organising two events.