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Would you log it?


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The other night we rushed out to find a newly published cache. Hoping to be FTF. Arrived on the scene and there were already cachers there searching. Starting searching ourselves and about 1 minute later one of the other cachers shouted Found It! She signed the logbook, asked us for our caching name, signed the log for us, then put the cache back. She said we could claim a 'Shared FTF find'. I logged the find, but feel somewhat uneasy about the whole thing. We didn't find the cache. We didn't even touch it! And couldn't quite see where it was hidden either.

 

Does this even count as a find? :unsure:

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

 

The widely shared opinion on this one in my neck of the woods is that if you are at gz and have started looking, and someone in the group finds it, you are co-ftf. I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

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The other night we rushed out to find a newly published cache. Hoping to be FTF. Arrived on the scene and there were already cachers there searching. Starting searching ourselves and about 1 minute later one of the other cachers shouted Found It! She signed the logbook, asked us for our caching name, signed the log for us, then put the cache back. She said we could claim a 'Shared FTF find'. I logged the find, but feel somewhat uneasy about the whole thing. We didn't find the cache. We didn't even touch it! And couldn't quite see where it was hidden either.

 

Does this even count as a find? :unsure:

 

You were there, you participated in the hunt and your name is on the log. If it was my cache, I wouldn't give a second thought to you logging it. However, if you don't feel comfortable, go back and find it.

 

When I cache in groups, especially large groups, I don't always physically touch the container, or personally sign the log. A lot of times we simply can't fit all of the cachers at GZ, or there is no sense for the entire group to go off trail and create a crop circle, just for he sake of touching the cache and scribbling our monikers. In cases like that, I prefer that whoever has hands on it, hold it up so I can at least see it and see where it was hidden.

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If you didn't sign the log, you didn't find it! :laughing:

 

OK. Seriously, as Don J says "there is no sense for the entire group to go off trail and create a crop circle, just for he sake of touching the cache and scribbling our monikers."

 

If the cacher that found it is happy to share FTF, claim joint FTF.

 

IF you are not happy to claim joint FTF -Don't. No-one's going to make you claim it. :)

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I think a lot comes down to what you are comfortable or happy with, and the opinion of the other cachers.

 

In a very strict sense, no you didn't personally find the cache, you didn't personally sign the log, so you didn't really find it as such, you were just nearby when someone else did.

On the other hand at that point you were acting as part of an (unofficial) group searching for the cache - the fact that you were there searching means that everyone else there could skip over areas you had already covered and so cover a lot more area quickly, so you all contributed towards finding the cache, and were all at GZ, so you all claim the find. I know I often go out caching with friends, and we regularly work in a similar fashion - searching together to cover more area, or certain members covering certain areas other members can't physically reach. The only difference here is that you haven't gone out a group, but unofficially formed one at the site.

 

Personally if I didn't know the other cachers searching, then I probably wouldn't claim FTF myself, but would still log a find. I would make sure to see and sign the log, and see where the cache was hidden personally. That is just my take though, where I have no real interest in FTF and would consider it fair enough if you were to claim a joint FTF.

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She signed the logbook, asked us for our caching name, signed the log for us

Well that explains your entry in the physical logbook:

"Dear log, I arrived late to this cache, and my socks didn't even match. Something was dangling out of my nose, and I was obviously still drunk from the night before. All the others there were handsome and intelligent. I wrote this myself and I can prove it. Love, The Incredibles. If that's how I spell it."

 

 

 

:P Just kidding.

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Someone else found it and you get to claim it? I understand you feeling uneasy. I'd feel guilty of cheating too. But hey, who am I to judge?

I haven't yet tried doing a FTF by having someone else find it & sign my name, check the cache contents, do the trades, and re-hide the container for me. It does seem very hands-off, don't it? It's fine as long as those guys don't take up too much of my time with it.

Edited by kunarion
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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

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The other night we rushed out to find a newly published cache. Hoping to be FTF. Arrived on the scene and there were already cachers there searching. Starting searching ourselves and about 1 minute later one of the other cachers shouted Found It! She signed the logbook, asked us for our caching name, signed the log for us, then put the cache back. She said we could claim a 'Shared FTF find'. I logged the find, but feel somewhat uneasy about the whole thing. We didn't find the cache. We didn't even touch it! And couldn't quite see where it was hidden either.

 

Does this even count as a find? :unsure:

 

I see this as two seperate issues. one is the group FTF, the other is simply a find.

 

If you are there with a group of others and someone else found the cache and signed your name then I see nothing wrong with claiming hte find. Have you never gone out with a group of four or five cachers or participated in a cache machine? In those situations you wold not always be the one to find the cache in it's hiding spot but you were still there helping, go ahead and claim your find.

 

Now the FTF is another story. If someone else found it and you are not comfortable saying you were the FTF or Co-FTF then no sweat, don't claim it. The FTF game is a side game anyway and so it doesn't really matter.

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I see this as two seperate issues. one is the group FTF, the other is simply a find.

 

. . . .

 

Now the FTF is another story. If someone else found it and you are not comfortable saying you were the FTF or Co-FTF then no sweat, don't claim it. The FTF game is a side game anyway and so it doesn't really matter.

 

Exactly. I don't see any problem with the find. And whatever you do with the First is completely up to you. Although blank logs can be fun to sign, I find that not "claiming" any firsts or using the three initials makes life a lot simpler. On the other hand, if it is something that you like to count, then how you count it is something that no one but yourself can determine.

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Some people take this whole game too seriously. They tend to make up rules to enforce their personal concept of a find.

 

How can you post an online find log if someone else found the cache and signed your name in the log? How can you be FTF is someone else found the cache and wrote their name before you? How do know that a find is legitimate if the physical log book wasn't signed. Does it count if your name was written by someone else?

 

To me these are all nonsense questions.

 

The point of geocaching is to have fun. For many of us it's a lot of fun to go out hunting caches with a group. As a group, whoever finds the cache will write the names of the group, or sometimes just a group name, and we all log the find when we get home (except for those with smartphones who log from the field). For some the satisfaction of personally making the find adds to the fun. When we go with a group, some people will run ahead to be be the first to GZ in hopes of being the on one who makes the find. Sometimes, on a difficult hide, it's the last person who gets to ground zero finds the cache because everyone else is looking for the cache elsewhere. We all log the find online. Generally a few of the logs will describe who found the cache or how everyone was looking in the wrong place till don caught up and found the cache We apply the same rules to FTF and generally everyone takes credit for the FTF. But if someone is not comfortable with claiming and FTF, nobody says you have to.

 

You are free to either claim a FTF or not. You are free to claim a find or not (though now that you know where the cache is hidden you might have a problem "finding" with ever finding that cache.). You don't have to get your knickers twisted up because someone else does it differently. Remember that the goal is to have fun.

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I see no problem calling it a find. But if you do, then go back out and find it. I'm deliberately ignoring the FTF issue as I always do. One thing that puzzles me; you seem uncomfortable with claiming the find since you say you didn't really even see where the cache was hidden. So why did you leave the area before you did?

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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

Interesting. I won't speak for my whole region, but I've cached with dozens of people from my area, and we all do the "say you've seen it, but stand back while everyone makes the find" thing. Even to the point where 3 of us cached with a very famous high number Geocacher after Geowoodstock, and although they didn't do it that way where he came from, he threw us a bone and played that way for 7 or 8 caches. :)

 

However, if I ever was in a first person to find the cache pulls it out situation, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all, and would log the find. So I say go for it.

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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

Let me rephrase for clarity. Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different. If I took that poll how many would be folks who argue it somehow doesn't exist because there is not a rule specifically enumerating it.

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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

 

The widely shared opinion on this one in my neck of the woods is that if you are at gz and have started looking, and someone in the group finds it, you are co-ftf. I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

 

I disagree, you can be co-helping the FTF but only the person that finds it first can be first to find, the rest are 2nd, 3rd, etc.

By your theory all the people that worked for NASA on Apollo 11 should be co-first men on the moon as they helped Neil get there but yet there is only one first man on the moon.

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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

Let me rephrase for clarity. Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different. If I took that poll how many would be folks who argue it somehow doesn't exist because there is not a rule specifically enumerating it.

 

But that is just it, you are calling "those who enjoy the FTF side of the game to some degree" all those that agree that the FTF should be shared and love going out for an FTF to find several other people there searching. That's not true. I enjoy the FTF game "to some degree", I just think that it is silly for 4, 6 or 8 poeple all to claim it just because they were there. One other person, OK, two, maybe, but it's gotten so out of hand around here that it's just ridiculous. I know one particular person that shall remain nameless, that once claimed an FTF on a cache because the person who found it before the other even arrived was still standing there with the cache in his hand chatting to the CO. He said if it hadn't been put back yet that he could still calim Co-FTF. There are plenty of others around here that would enjoy going out for the occaisional FTF if they didn't think that 10 other people would show up at the same time all expecting a "Co-FTF".

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My signature is my reply:

 

 

re-posted for when I change my signature:

"Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find." Jeremy

 

In other words, do what feels right for you.

It's only a game.

Edited by Sol seaker
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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

Interesting. I won't speak for my whole region, but I've cached with dozens of people from my area, and we all do the "say you've seen it, but stand back while everyone makes the find" thing. Even to the point where 3 of us cached with a very famous high number Geocacher after Geowoodstock, and although they didn't do it that way where he came from, he threw us a bone and played that way for 7 or 8 caches. :)

 

However, if I ever was in a first person to find the cache pulls it out situation, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all, and would log the find. So I say go for it.

 

We've done that before with groups of two or three, but when you have 28 cachers, hiking a five mile trail with 20 caches on it, it might takes days if we waited for each individual cacher to find each individual cache.

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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

Let me rephrase for clarity. Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different. If I took that poll how many would be folks who argue it somehow doesn't exist because there is not a rule specifically enumerating it.

That's not true. I enjoy the FTF game "to some degree", I just think that it is silly for 4, 6 or 8 poeple all to claim it just because they were there. One other person, OK, two, maybe, but it's gotten so out of hand around here that it's just ridiculous. I know one particular person that shall remain nameless, that once claimed an FTF on a cache because the person who found it before the other even arrived was still standing there with the cache in his hand chatting to the CO. He said if it hadn't been put back yet that he could still calim Co-FTF. There are plenty of others around here that would enjoy going out for the occaisional FTF if they didn't think that 10 other people would show up at the same time all expecting a "Co-FTF".

 

Gotta be honest, if anyone I knew pulled any of that crap I would call them out on it. If someone isn't searching, or is expecting to get an FTF for simply being there then that is no bueno. Maybe it's because I often go after FTF's deep in the woods or late at night/early in the morning I don't get as many people there. I can't remember the last time I've had what you describe happen. In my opinion, if you are searching WHEN the cache is found it is ok. Not any of the examples you described. I don't really understand how someone claiming FTF on a cache that had been found before they showed up or expecting to set up a lawn chair while others search is what you thought I was talking about. I'd love some examples as I've never seen what you're describing happen.

 

"But that is just it, you are calling "those who enjoy the FTF side of the game to some degree" all those that agree that the FTF should be shared and love going out for an FTF to find several other people there searching."

 

I did not say any of what you are saying I did. Let me show you again what I said:

 

"Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different." That remains completely true when I originally wrote it, and now has only changed slightly to: Among those many folks who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have only met one person in my area who sees it different.

 

I am not saying others have to agree, I'm not saying sharing it is preferable, and I'm not saying even that my position is correct. I enjoy solo FTF's quite a lot. I also enjoy group finds as well. One of the reason I feel the way I do is that I've been in situations where my interpretation of the hint or something on the cache page that helps another make the final grab I actively assisted in that find.

Edited by Hypnopaedia
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My signature is my reply:

 

 

re-posted for when I change my signature:

"Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find." Jeremy

 

In other words, do what feels right for you.

It's only a game.

 

I've never thought that statement was a stamp of approval to do 'whatever'. More towards tempering the reactions to improper logging - 'not twisting the knickers.'

 

Consider Pocket caches.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I did not say any of what you are saying I did. Let me show you again what I said:

 

"Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different." That remains completely true when I originally wrote it, and now has only changed slightly to: Among those many folks who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have only met one person in my area who sees it different.

 

 

I still think you're just not asking the right people.

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You shared the hunt, share the find. We found a cache and another cacher was there also - team effort. Shared FTF with Cacher XXX. Up to you what you write in your log. Just have fun, enjoy the party atmosphere/mini event a FTF can be, and don't sweat the small stuff - it'll eventually be waaaaay down at the bottom of the cache page.

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I did not say any of what you are saying I did. Let me show you again what I said:

 

"Among those who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different." That remains completely true when I originally wrote it, and now has only changed slightly to: Among those many folks who enjoy the FTF side game to some degree, I have only met one person in my area who sees it different.

 

 

I still think you're just not asking the right people.

 

I'm only asking the people I am with at am FTF. Before today, I thought those were the only people whose answer would matter. I'm always in favor of more input, however.

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You shared the hunt, share the find. We found a cache and another cacher was there also - team effort. Shared FTF with Cacher XXX. Up to you what you write in your log. Just have fun, enjoy the party atmosphere/mini event a FTF can be, and don't sweat the small stuff - it'll eventually be waaaaay down at the bottom of the cache page.

 

If a couple three cachers claimed a FTF I'm not sure what a cache owner or others in the community could do about, other than debating the issue. And even then.

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Thanks for all the replies. Some people have said not to worry about rules, but for me, that's not quite it. It's more about being able to come home and say that was a satisfying hunt. I do go out caching in groups and always log all the finds. I think the difference for me the other night was the short search (maybe less than a minute), not signing the physical log myself and also not seeing exactly where the cache was hidden. I'm going to make sure to sign the log myself next time something similar happens. The main reason I didn't see where the cache was hidden was that one of the cachers got 3 wasp stings at GZ, kind of makes you not want to stick around anymore than you have to!!

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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I think you'll get varying opinions on this one. In my opinion, go ahead and log it as a find but don't go with the "shared FTF".

MULLY

I have yet to meet someone in my area who sees it different and I have 145 FTF's. Every person who is looking is eliminating a spot and therefore helping find it.

You have met one now.

 

I have participated in the group FTF before but it is one reason why I hardly ever rush out and get one anymore.

 

I don't think I am alone in that regard. If you are polling people that are at the group FTF event then I think your sample is slightly skewed. I am sure that if you put up a poll on the NW forums that you would find a slightly different result to your survey...

 

+1

 

I don't run out after FTFs and even avoid going after nearby ones for fear of running into the dreaded "FTF Party," where everyone in the same ZIP code as the cache gets to claim "co-FTF." I have gone out looking for a cache with a buddy and accepted the CO's cache-page congratulations for "co-FTF," but the rage among newer cachers seems to be the 5- or 10-way "shared" FTF, which seems to make a meaningless statistic even less meaningful. On the other hand, it does allow people interested in that sort of thing to rack up large numbers of FTFs with relatively little (solo) effort. All of the cachers in the same park at the same time can claim co-FTF if they want--I don't care how they play the game--but there are many of us who play the game differently--we just aren't to be found at "FTF parties."

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We're not big fans of playing follow the leader in caching groups, so normally we aren't in this situation. The only "group FTFs" we count in our FTF list are those for which we were the first ones who actually found it.

 

These days, it seems we've pretty much checked out of the FTF game. At first, it was fun to race around, but with more and more folks getting instant notification on smart phones, it seemed we were always late for the party. Since I'm pretty competitive, I'd get psyched up for the FTF, and then I'd just be frustrated that we weren't first. Finding caches should be fun, not frustrating, so I ultimately decided not to go for them anymore.

 

Every once in a while we'll get back into it. We were sitting at 49 for the longest time, so I got back out to get our 50th last month. If we happen to get another one, we'll

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I would claim it and I believe most folks in my area, including Hypno would agree. FTFs are supposed to be fun and not a fight at GZ if multiple people are there. True, I think a person should bother to help look rather than just be there and sit in the car and expect a FTF, but in my Seattle experience, the vast majority of cachers would look and would share. True, some may mutter under their own breath or want it themselves, but if others show up, most (but not all) will share and they will be polite about it.

 

Lets stop arguing about what is done in Seattle. Its just one region of the world and this is a national topic. Obviously a few folks here in Seattle disagree, but I am just arguing saying in my experience and the people I personally talk to about it. Yes, there are some exceptions, some are in this thread.

 

To the OP of this thread. There is no 100% consistent answer and every region is different. If you want to claim CoFTF, there is nothing against any rules of doing so. No matter what you do with FTFs, somebody, someone out there will be grouchy about it.

Edited by lamoracke
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Lets stop arguing about what is done in Seattle. Its just one region of the world and this is a national topic. Obviously a few folks here in Seattle disagree, but I am just arguing saying in my experience and the people I personally talk to about it. Yes, there are some exceptions, some are in this thread.

 

I guess your request to stop arguing about what happens in Seattle applies to everyone but you?

Edited by FobesMan
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WOW, lots of opinions on this one.

Hey, its a game to have fun. Its a game of honesty. Its a GAME...If you feel like you shouldn't take a FTF, then don't. If you feel you should go find it before logging it, then go find it. Its just a game and after all and only YOUR game playing will count on the way you play this game and honesty will keep you honest, honestly!!!

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The person to find it gets the FTF. If they have a geobuddy then the buddy gets a co-FTF. Anyone else gets a find. (even in a large group) If you don't feel right about someone signing your name as an FTF then you do not have to claim it. It's all up to you, take the find and hit the trails for the next one. Games should never stress you out.

Happy Trails! :rolleyes:

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It's only happened to me once, and there were 3 of us. I was the second to arrive on the scene; the 3rd joined shortly after. The first cacher explained where he had been looking already. I focused on a different area and found the cache.

 

To me, it was clearly a shared find. Especially cacher 1; who had been there longer than I and shared the information of where he looked. With cacher 3 it wasn't so clear cut, but he contributed too.

 

I logged it as "FTF with cachers 2 and 3".

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The person to find it gets the FTF. If they have a geobuddy then the buddy gets a co-FTF. Anyone else gets a find. (even in a large group) If you don't feel right about someone signing your name as an FTF then you do not have to claim it. It's all up to you, take the find and hit the trails for the next one. Games should never stress you out.

Happy Trails! :rolleyes:

 

First to find goes to the first person to find the cache, everyone else is a runner up, there can only be one first, or should everyone that worked on the Apollo 11 mission be credited with co-first man on the moon?

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I have a question to the folks, from where ever, who complain about all these people who get together and scam a co-ftf together. I'm honestly confused. It doesn't seem like you are saying that if one person comes upon one other person they haven't met before that if the share the ftf after 30 mins of looking, then the second person is wrong in claiming the co-ftf?

 

One thing I (Honestly!) don't understand is I hear all these people in my area speak of how hard it is to get an FTF these days. By the time they get to GZ it's already found and done with. So how can there be this large group of folks who manage to, at a moments notice, all get together and agree that all of them will get Co-ftf? Are they all hanging out beforehand? Are we talking about especially hard caches that take awhile for someone to find? How does it work that all of them are able to get together to work this scam when others can't even see a blank log or another human when they show up 20 mins after publish. I also don't understand how this is the new thing to do among cachers. I've seen as many large ftf parties now as I did when I started (To be fair I haven't been around THAT long.). How do they plan it? Why is it "dreaded"? Why not go, help find the cache, and then not log a Co-FTF. I suppose we FTF'rs are just so repugnant that you can't deign to be around us. I could be wrong. Someone help me with the logic that A) No one can get an FTF around here because people grab them so fast that they are found before they can even arrive and B)There are so many "5 - 10 Person shared FTF's" and Dreaded FTF parties where everyone in the zip code gets an FTF for being in the same park. How do those to things work together?

 

I don't buy it, especially as there are no examples. The large majority of my FTF's were solo (About 100), the next amount were with 1 other person I did not come with (20-30) and the smallest is with large groups (10-20). I am certainly not in the category of cachers being described. Although I have fully enjoyed most of my FTF parties. If the rule of "FTF's, There Can Be Only One!" had been standard I can think of at least half a dozen situations where two people were within inches of the cache and most likely would have "fought" over the right to sign first. I also would have NEVER become an FTF'r if that had been the case generally. I have enough confrontation in my life at work telling people all their photos and documents are gone forever to want it in my hobby. Also, some of my best caching stories have come out of them.

 

I really think most of this is along the same line as how Smart Phone cachers are "ruining the game". Longer term cachers seem to think sometimes that if a new cacher is doing it, it must be a fad or the hot new thing and they will never be "real cachers". And if you don't enjoy it, than no one else should either. They should be put in shame for being part of a "dreaded" ftf party. It means that some of the old time cachers may have to talk to one of the plebes. Just a theory.

 

I also am so sick of people who don't enjoy the FTF game calling it meaningless (BTW You can't make something "more" meaningless). Honestly, what is the true "meaning" of Geocaching? If those folks so strongly argue that it's meaningless then how in the world can you be strongly arguing about it? Makes no sense. Leave it alone. Why do you feel the need to denigrate what other people enjoy when it does no harm to you? Let's take a look at a particular example of the words/phrases "Not real" and "Meaningless".

 

"Well, when it comes down to it, Christianity/Buddhism/Judaism/Islam is meaningless."

 

(This is only an example to make a point) Hmmmm. Would that be upsetting to practitioners of any of the above? Probably. Is it upsetting (Or incorrect) to me? Not particularly. As an Atheist, it pretty much is to me. BUT I understand that since I don't care about religion, ergo find it meaningless, I have no reason to point it out to someone who may feel differently. Why?

 

Because it doesn't harm me at all to do it, and I may be unnecessarily offending/bothering/irritating/slightly upsetting someone for no good reason.

 

"Well, when it comes down to it, The FTF side game is meaningless."

 

Same thing. Don't act like the constant "meaningless" is not intended an insult to the people who really enjoy it when you would never do the same with other beliefs.

 

Even in this thread, notice when I was responded to originally, I attempted to add clarifying information instead of going off of one sentence in someones response or ignoring newer additions to the thread. The reason I do this is because, unlike the vast majority of regular posters here, I am always looking for ways to make myself better understood and to gather information and even to, GASP, change my mind! I don't know why I expect that from people anymore, but I approach (almost) every conversation/debate/argument here like that. Yet every time it ends up as a straight back and forth focusing more on more on a single piece of minutiae getting farther and farther away from enlightenment on the subject at hand. Why not focus on the broader point and information the baths the subject in more daylight? Honestly, I am probably expecting too much, but like a starving man in a barren wasteland, I would be ecstatic for a mere morsel.

 

I'm sure I'll get flamed now, but my reaction will be more likely to be stop reading these forums (Been close to that one for weeks now) then to read each response with pleasure (The troll response).

 

Hmm, I may have gone off topic for a moment. To the OP, great question. There, on topic.

 

TL,DR: I'm too high strung. (But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.)

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This horse has been beat to death, but let me get my kick in....

Here in Germany, the one who 'finds' it, gets the FTF. Everyone else in the group, or the other searchers, gets STF or TTF (no one counts after Third To Find).

If you are joined by another party (as was the case the other day), we made the find, had first dibs on the trackables, and the others had to wait their turn to log, drop/ retrieve trackables, ect..

When we come up on someone logging a find, we either wait a ways away, or we say hello, wait for them to finish, and they point out how and where it was hidden- and vise/ verse.

If it goes missing after you put it back, then you get to feel guilty for f***ing it up.

 

We have had instances where WE arrived first at new caches, took too long to find it, and had #2 or #3 cachers make the find. Guess what? THEY get the FTF, NOT us!

(Later, at another cache, it happened the other way around. We were SO happy to grab it from under this guy! He's a pretentious prick!)

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I'm sure I'll get flamed now, but my reaction will be more likely to be stop reading these forums (Been close to that one for weeks now) then to read each response with pleasure (The troll response).

 

 

Oh no you don't. You're not leaving after that opus. Mr. T. is jealous of that post. :lol:

 

I don't know, opinions vary. Just within the last month, there was a thread about a CO from Nebraska who was of the opinion "there's no such thing as co-ftf" (the person who grabs it is the first to find), and put verbage on his cache pages that he would delete logs of anyone claiming co-ftf. Of course he can't do that.

 

Actually, I think it's a nice and "friendly" thing to do, these FTF parties you participate in. Assuming there are enough cachers in a particular area interested in being FTF, and a large group show up at the same time.

Edited by Mr.Yuck
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I have a question to the folks, from where ever, who complain about all these people who get together and scam a co-ftf together. I'm honestly confused. It doesn't seem like you are saying that if one person comes upon one other person they haven't met before that if the share the ftf after 30 mins of looking, then the second person is wrong in claiming the co-ftf?

 

One thing I (Honestly!) don't understand is I hear all these people in my area speak of how hard it is to get an FTF these days. By the time they get to GZ it's already found and done with. So how can there be this large group of folks who manage to, at a moments notice, all get together and agree that all of them will get Co-ftf? Are they all hanging out beforehand? Are we talking about especially hard caches that take awhile for someone to find? How does it work that all of them are able to get together to work this scam when others can't even see a blank log or another human when they show up 20 mins after publish. I also don't understand how this is the new thing to do among cachers. I've seen as many large ftf parties now as I did when I started (To be fair I haven't been around THAT long.). How do they plan it? Why is it "dreaded"? Why not go, help find the cache, and then not log a Co-FTF. I suppose we FTF'rs are just so repugnant that you can't deign to be around us. I could be wrong. Someone help me with the logic that A) No one can get an FTF around here because people grab them so fast that they are found before they can even arrive and B)There are so many "5 - 10 Person shared FTF's" and Dreaded FTF parties where everyone in the zip code gets an FTF for being in the same park. How do those to things work together?

 

I don't buy it, especially as there are no examples. The large majority of my FTF's were solo (About 100), the next amount were with 1 other person I did not come with (20-30) and the smallest is with large groups (10-20). I am certainly not in the category of cachers being described. Although I have fully enjoyed most of my FTF parties. If the rule of "FTF's, There Can Be Only One!" had been standard I can think of at least half a dozen situations where two people were within inches of the cache and most likely would have "fought" over the right to sign first. I also would have NEVER become an FTF'r if that had been the case generally. I have enough confrontation in my life at work telling people all their photos and documents are gone forever to want it in my hobby. Also, some of my best caching stories have come out of them.

 

I really think most of this is along the same line as how Smart Phone cachers are "ruining the game". Longer term cachers seem to think sometimes that if a new cacher is doing it, it must be a fad or the hot new thing and they will never be "real cachers". And if you don't enjoy it, than no one else should either. They should be put in shame for being part of a "dreaded" ftf party. It means that some of the old time cachers may have to talk to one of the plebes. Just a theory.

 

I also am so sick of people who don't enjoy the FTF game calling it meaningless (BTW You can't make something "more" meaningless). Honestly, what is the true "meaning" of Geocaching? If those folks so strongly argue that it's meaningless then how in the world can you be strongly arguing about it? Makes no sense. Leave it alone. Why do you feel the need to denigrate what other people enjoy when it does no harm to you? Let's take a look at a particular example of the words/phrases "Not real" and "Meaningless".

 

"Well, when it comes down to it, Christianity/Buddhism/Judaism/Islam is meaningless."

 

(This is only an example to make a point) Hmmmm. Would that be upsetting to practitioners of any of the above? Probably. Is it upsetting (Or incorrect) to me? Not particularly. As an Atheist, it pretty much is to me. BUT I understand that since I don't care about religion, ergo find it meaningless, I have no reason to point it out to someone who may feel differently. Why?

 

Because it doesn't harm me at all to do it, and I may be unnecessarily offending/bothering/irritating/slightly upsetting someone for no good reason.

 

"Well, when it comes down to it, The FTF side game is meaningless."

 

Same thing. Don't act like the constant "meaningless" is not intended an insult to the people who really enjoy it when you would never do the same with other beliefs.

 

Even in this thread, notice when I was responded to originally, I attempted to add clarifying information instead of going off of one sentence in someones response or ignoring newer additions to the thread. The reason I do this is because, unlike the vast majority of regular posters here, I am always looking for ways to make myself better understood and to gather information and even to, GASP, change my mind! I don't know why I expect that from people anymore, but I approach (almost) every conversation/debate/argument here like that. Yet every time it ends up as a straight back and forth focusing more on more on a single piece of minutiae getting farther and farther away from enlightenment on the subject at hand. Why not focus on the broader point and information the baths the subject in more daylight? Honestly, I am probably expecting too much, but like a starving man in a barren wasteland, I would be ecstatic for a mere morsel.

 

I'm sure I'll get flamed now, but my reaction will be more likely to be stop reading these forums (Been close to that one for weeks now) then to read each response with pleasure (The troll response).

 

Hmm, I may have gone off topic for a moment. To the OP, great question. There, on topic.

 

TL,DR: I'm too high strung. (But that doesn't mean I'm wrong.)

 

Very well put and I agree with most of the OT stuff about how people should be treated. I will attempt to respond without sounding as though I am flaming but sometimes that is diffiulct to do.

 

My original (somewhat aggressive) repsonse was in regard to the statement that the widely held belief in your area is that all FTF's should be shared with all present and that everyone around here feels that way. Even your clarification statement was all inclusuive to all those that enjoy participating in the FTF game. My response was to point out that not everyone feels that way and even those that enjoy going out for FTF's don't feel that way, myself being one of them. Besides the ones that claim not to care (and more than one of them has responded here) there are others that like to go out and get the FTF that don't either 1) becasue as you say, they are so hard to come by, 2) they don't want to share it 3) the effort and gas to get it are too much for the trouble or 4) they simply lack the time to do it.

 

To the point of the large FTF parties are rare. Yes, the majority of the FTF hunts are going to be solo especially for the relentless FTFers such as yourself and a couple of others, but even your own numbers suggest that they are not uncommon. Subtract out the power trail that you were FTF for on most of them last weekend (which I considered going for myself BTW) and somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50% of all your FTF's have involved at least one other person.

 

You seem to want examples. I feel that the point above is enough to prove FTF parties are far from rare and I've been reluctant to provide them becasue I didn't feel it necessary to drag others into our debate but if it will help I will provide three. There are plenty of others easily found with a small amount of searching; just read the first few logs of a few different caches.

 

The first is the example I spoke of before, where Co-FTF was claimed (but not granted by the CO) by someone that arrived after the cache was found but claimed it because it had not been replaced. The second is an example where others had been at the location searching for more than 10 minutes when another cacher arrived, was there for barely a minute when the cache was found by the others, but still claimed Co-FTF. The third(complete with pictures) is an example where to your point, they were all there happily searching together, eliminating other areas and a Co-FTF could be justified for all of them.

 

My original response was to point out that not everyone feels the way you and the others you have encountered and shared an FTF with do. My response was curt and somewhat in your face and for that I apologize. You seemed to be speaking for all of us that cache around here and like to get FTF's and it was that I was taking exception to. If you had said somthing like, "those that I have encountered at group FTF's usually agree to a Co-FTF once the cache is found", then my response would have been different; something more along the lines of, "I don't care for this practice." From your original and even clarifying statement I interpretated it as you speaking for me and I prefer to do that myself.

 

I really don't care what others do, and I am even still willing to share with others that are there if I find it first, I've done it before just as others have shared with me. The provided examples are where I would draw the line but the reality is, it really doesn't matter what I think. More recently I have practiced if I am there with a group and did not make the find myself, then I do not claim the Co-FTF. If I am the one that finds it while others are there then I am happy to say you can claim it too if you want. I'm not such a jerk that I'm going to tell someone I won't share but if the FTF prize is nice, I'm going to take it.

 

It's not completely meaningless to me, becasue I enjoy hunting for them and tracking how many I've got, but as others have said, there is no stat tracked by Groundspeak, anyone can claim it and check the little FTF box in GSAK and post their FTF's on their profile page. Some use that stat as a badge and as proof of relevance, perhaps posting it on your profile alone (mine included) is a form of that. Others use their counts as evidence of why their arguments are the correct one, I'm not trying to do that. I'm just saying what my opinion is on the subject and that I am not alone. Perhaps, if we meet at an event, we can still be civil and discuss (debate) the matter further. I hold no ill will.

 

***edit to fix link***

Edited by FobesMan
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