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how angry folks get when they are disappointed


NanCycle
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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

The whole post, by Droo:

 

Make sure when you name the coin that you include the word Proxy in it. That tells cachers hungry to find the real deal that they will have no joy here and not be disappointed. There have been too many stories of how angry folks get when they are disappointed to the point of throwing your proxy coin in the trash. Not nice, I know but something to consider. Proxies are a fact of life so if you properly label yours as such you CYA.

 

Unless they wanted to steal the coin and add it to their own collection, why would they care whether it was a real coin or a proxy? I realize the people most likely to know the answer are the least likely to give it here, so I guess I'm really just asking for speculation. I move trackables the same whether they are real coins or proxies, whether they have the original TB tag, or the "official" copy, or a homemade one. True, when I see a beautiful real coin, I do admire and enjoy it more, but it doesn't really matter to me. When I see proxies, it mostly just makes me sad that we can't send out something nice without having some jerk stealing it.

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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

The whole post, by Droo:

 

Make sure when you name the coin that you include the word Proxy in it. That tells cachers hungry to find the real deal that they will have no joy here and not be disappointed. There have been too many stories of how angry folks get when they are disappointed to the point of throwing your proxy coin in the trash. Not nice, I know but something to consider. Proxies are a fact of life so if you properly label yours as such you CYA.

 

Unless they wanted to steal the coin and add it to their own collection, why would they care whether it was a real coin or a proxy? I realize the people most likely to know the answer are the least likely to give it here, so I guess I'm really just asking for speculation. I move trackables the same whether they are real coins or proxies, whether they have the original TB tag, or the "official" copy, or a homemade one. True, when I see a beautiful real coin, I do admire and enjoy it more, but it doesn't really matter to me. When I see proxies, it mostly just makes me sad that we can't send out something nice without having some jerk stealing it.

 

Amen to that.

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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

 

 

I move trackables the same whether they are real coins or proxies, whether they have the original TB tag, or the "official" copy, or a homemade one. True, when I see a beautiful real coin, I do admire and enjoy it more, but it doesn't really matter to me. When I see proxies, it mostly just makes me sad that we can't send out something nice without having some jerk stealing it.

 

Ditto! :sad:

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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

Because some people really really hate proxies. REALLY HATE them. There have been a few tirades here on the forums and many have come out and posted their ferocious disfavour of them. Are they right or wrong? doesn't matter, they are there and should be looked out for .... kinda like malware.

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Well... I do not know if there are no proxy TB's but you can easily make.... of course... TB's are not as expensive as the geocoins are.... plus that there is an official copy already in the pack!

 

I do not find it right to throw away proxy coins.... they are mad for what? becasue they were expecting to see a nice coin and found a proxy? They will throw it because they are dissapointed? So... if I go for geocaching and find a cache that will dissapoint me... for example the place is not a place that I like... or the trades were not good... and I got tired to find it... shall I throw away the container?

 

I will go further and say..... if I find a TB that even by mistake... the cacher send for travels the Copy... or the attached item is not something I like... or it is something that makes me furius... disrespects me, my family, my area, my team, my religion or my country... what shall I do? Just because I will get mad... I will throw it away?

 

many times I visited a cache I got tired with sunburns, scratches etc... just to realise that the cache didn't have the trackables it showed it had....(taken, stollen...) I was dissapointed! So.. shall I throw away the cache becasue I was dissapointed??

 

I do not know if these can be done... but Groundspeak doesn't really know what may be an insult in a country!!! something that is a huge insult for one country may be ok for an other! you may even see propaganda TB's that Groundspeak doesn't even know!!! things that may see innocent but they are not!

 

If you do not like something... do not move it but why throw it away? it is not mine to do that!!!

if you see something bad report it! but do not throw it away.... it doesn't belong to you!

 

If I go to their house.. and I see a vase that I do not like... do I have the right to smash it?

 

Ok... it is good to write PROXY in the title of the coin... but there are so many that do not even read about the coins!!! Not the missions.... nothing! will that be my fault if they go and find that my coin is a proxy and get mad??

 

I know that I probably went way too far... but sometimes you have to prepeared for anything! yes... you will say... something are not the same.... but is there a huge difference?

Edited by GATOULIS
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There is no such thing as a proxy Travel Bug, just coins.

That is NOT true.

 

Oh really. When was the first proxy bug that was a problem for you.

 

Odd. It would appear as though my car is a proxy TB. It has a TB tracking number on it. Gives the TB icon to anyone who discovers it. Yet... it is NOT a TB. Therefore, it must be a proxy TB. I've seen several of these. Not one has been thrown away when found that I've heard of.

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There is no such thing as a proxy Travel Bug, just coins.

That is NOT true.

 

Oh really. When was the first proxy bug that was a problem for you.

 

Odd. It would appear as though my car is a proxy TB. It has a TB tracking number on it. Gives the TB icon to anyone who discovers it. Yet... it is NOT a TB. Therefore, it must be a proxy TB. I've seen several of these. Not one has been thrown away when found that I've heard of.

 

You are right.... all the stickers of TB's.... that you put them on cars etc... are not real TB's but still work...

 

Of course I admitt IU laughed a lot with what you posted.... a funny video came in my mind.... when a guy is doing some execsise holding his expansive car... which is near a cliff... and an other guy things that the first guy is trying to trown away the car and he goes there and actually do that..... leaving the other with a huge surprise on his face....

well... easily you can put the legent there..... it was a proxy TB! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

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Coins are sent as proxy's often because the owner does not want to risk losing the real coin, so sends a proxy in its place.

Travel Bug tags are sent out with whatever the chosen travel bug is, so are generally not sent out with a proxy in place of a real item.

Exceptions do of course exist for coins and travel bugs that have gone missing, in which case the proxy is a replacement for the real (missing) item.

 

I will admit that I don't particularly like finding 'I don't want to lose my coin' style proxies, and would much rather someone sent out an interesting bug than a fake coin. I can't really explain it properly in words, oI guess just the desire to find and handle something cool and interesting, not a photocopied piece of paper. So for those reasons I would agree with the idea of having 'proxy' in the title of a proxy bug.

 

At the same time I don't visit caches to find bugs, so never bother checking the expected contents in advance - if I find a trackable of some form, cool, if not I found the cache anyway.

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it has been my experience that there are three main reasons that a proxy exists -

 

1. original owner did not want to release (and thus risk losing) the actual item

 

2. original owner released the item, it went missing, the proxy was released (by the original owner) in its place

 

3. original owner released the item, a later finder kept (stole) the original item, and substituted a proxy

 

- - - -

 

as for proxy travel bugs - I guess that it all depends on your definition

 

on a few occasions, I have seen a laminated piece of paper with a photo-copy of the original dog tag

Edited by Bhob
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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

Because some people really really hate proxies. REALLY HATE them. There have been a few tirades here on the forums and many have come out and posted their ferocious disfavour of them. Are they right or wrong? doesn't matter, they are there and should be looked out for .... kinda like malware.

 

+1 agreed. it's extreme (and disrespectful) to thow one in the trash... but it happens, so why not mitigate that concern from the start.

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WOW!

 

I have often found that humans are a very interesting and hard to understand specie...even if I presumably am one myself. We are capable of great good...and great self-centeredness.

 

Why would someone throw away a proxy?

Because that person lacks compassion.

 

1) As you suggested, they wanted to steal the real coin (an act that obviously lacks compassion for the actual owner).

 

2) The proxy was lost by accident, but the cacher fails to have the compasion (or honor) to tell the truth about the matter.

 

3) They feel that the proxy isn't good enough for them to handle. The cacher elevates oneself to a position of judgement, a position without perspective other than the cacher's own. In this self-centered view, the cacher is failing to find compassion for, or even consider, the owner...a stranger who's situation in life is completely unknown to the proxy's finder.

 

In my short time as a cacher, I have handled trackables sent out by young boys in a scout troop, someone unemployed and homeless (living in his truck), someone grieving a personal tragedy, and some were sent out by people in far away places that do not fully understand American culture or 'standards.' I have handled some that I will never really know what the owner's situation may be.

 

Just because you may be in good health, with a good job, with enough money to send out out a $10-30 geocoin with emotional detachment...doesn't mean that everyone is in that same position.

 

All trackables should be handled with respect and compassion. So often these small item carry hopes and dreams.... To judge them would lack the greatest of human qualities, compassion.

 

Sorry if this rant has offended any.

I am often frustrated with my fellow humans.

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WOW!

 

I have often found that humans are a very interesting and hard to understand specie...even if I presumably am one myself. We are capable of great good...and great self-centeredness.

 

Why would someone throw away a proxy?

Because that person lacks compassion.

 

1) As you suggested, they wanted to steal the real coin (an act that obviously lacks compassion for the actual owner).

 

2) The proxy was lost by accident, but the cacher fails to have the compasion (or honor) to tell the truth about the matter.

 

3) They feel that the proxy isn't good enough for them to handle. The cacher elevates oneself to a position of judgement, a position without perspective other than the cacher's own. In this self-centered view, the cacher is failing to find compassion for, or even consider, the owner...a stranger who's situation in life is completely unknown to the proxy's finder.

 

In my short time as a cacher, I have handled trackables sent out by young boys in a scout troop, someone unemployed and homeless (living in his truck), someone grieving a personal tragedy, and some were sent out by people in far away places that do not fully understand American culture or 'standards.' I have handled some that I will never really know what the owner's situation may be.

 

Just because you may be in good health, with a good job, with enough money to send out out a $10-30 geocoin with emotional detachment...doesn't mean that everyone is in that same position.

 

All trackables should be handled with respect and compassion. So often these small item carry hopes and dreams.... To judge them would lack the greatest of human qualities, compassion.

 

Sorry if this rant has offended any.

I am often frustrated with my fellow humans.

 

Amen! :)

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I'm not that much into coins; I have just three and all were gifts.

 

Coin #1 (TB13TGR) John Harrison Geocoin - PROXY: Donald's Birthday Coin (John Harrison)

 

This coin travelled a good distance before it went missing. I am going to re-release it as a laminated-paper proxy and thanks to the advice in this forum I have already changed the name and description to make it clear that it is a proxy. I'm thinking of maybe sending it to someone in Europe so that the proxy can start out closer to where the original disappeared (in Hungary).

 

Coin #2 (TB383Z0) Bicycle Geocoin - My Colorado Traveler

 

This coin was stolen from a cache just a few months after it was released. The tracking number is now being used for a laminated image of the Colorado state flag--mission statement on the reverse. The description on this one also makes it clear that this is no longer a real coin, and it's not even pretending to be.

 

Coin #3 (Not yet activated)

 

The 2010 GS Lackeys Geocoin. I really don't want to let some jerk steal this--I'd feel much the same about that as if I just went outside right now and threw it in the trash. But I don't want to make the standard laminated photo copy either. I have a little jigsaw-cut bear and was thinking of using that and calling it "The Bear That Ate The Lackeys Geocoin."

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I'm not that much into coins; I have just three and all were gifts.

 

Coin #1 (TB13TGR) John Harrison Geocoin - PROXY: Donald's Birthday Coin (John Harrison)

 

This coin travelled a good distance before it went missing. I am going to re-release it as a laminated-paper proxy and thanks to the advice in this forum I have already changed the name and description to make it clear that it is a proxy. I'm thinking of maybe sending it to someone in Europe so that the proxy can start out closer to where the original disappeared (in Hungary).

 

Coin #2 (TB383Z0) Bicycle Geocoin - My Colorado Traveler

 

This coin was stolen from a cache just a few months after it was released. The tracking number is now being used for a laminated image of the Colorado state flag--mission statement on the reverse. The description on this one also makes it clear that this is no longer a real coin, and it's not even pretending to be.

 

Coin #3 (Not yet activated)

 

The 2010 GS Lackeys Geocoin. I really don't want to let some jerk steal this--I'd feel much the same about that as if I just went outside right now and threw it in the trash. But I don't want to make the standard laminated photo copy either. I have a little jigsaw-cut bear and was thinking of using that and calling it "The Bear That Ate The Lackeys Geocoin."

Although it is very clear that your "Colorado Traveler" is clearly labeled in its description, you might want to change its name to indicate it is a proxy, since that is what people will see if they visit the cache page (just the name in the list of trackables). Also, some cachers might assume that it is a geocoin since it has an icon associated with it. If you add "proxy" to the name, there should be no confusion.

 

Although I am not a fan of proxies, I understand why some folks are. I cannot understand how someone, in good consciousness (did I spell that right? LOL), could throw away someone's proxy. That's rude. If you don't like it, don't move it and leave it alone.

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There is no such thing as a proxy Travel Bug, just coins.

That is NOT true.

 

Oh really. When was the first proxy bug that was a problem for you.

 

Odd. It would appear as though my car is a proxy TB. It has a TB tracking number on it. Gives the TB icon to anyone who discovers it. Yet... it is NOT a TB. Therefore, it must be a proxy TB. I've seen several of these. Not one has been thrown away when found that I've heard of.

 

Do you have any idea concerning my opinion about car TBs or are you just kinda throwing it out there to make your point?

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Odd. It would appear as though my car is a proxy TB. It has a TB tracking number on it. Gives the TB icon to anyone who discovers it. Yet... it is NOT a TB. Therefore, it must be a proxy TB. I've seen several of these. Not one has been thrown away when found that I've heard of.

 

Do you have any idea concerning my opinion about car TBs or are you just kinda throwing it out there to make your point?

 

I am simply a responder to your statement about proxy TBs. Got some interesting thoughts on car TBs that might intrigue me?

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I'm not sure I understand how not allowing others to watch a geocache would help, in this particular case....

 

I know several people who watch tb hotels just to find coins. Who knows if some people watch caches to steal coins?

 

That's true! I do not believe that for all the steals muggles are guilty.... unfortunatelly there are cachers who do that too...

 

here were have a cache... the owner asked me to go and check it when I am there... and I am there very often! It is less than 5 minutes from my home... and I go there for walks with my father... I had seen that coins were stollen from there... and I checked the logbook! there were name that loged but never entered here... actually they used their names... so I couldn't see which cachers were... they were writing ..... took coin... and there was a date mutching...etc.. the coin was never logged in the site, and since I didn't have their codenames... I couldn't see who they were...

but I am wondering... would a muggle log his visit?? I do not think so!!! If you go and steal.... will you leave a thank you card behind?? I sedn their names to the owners of the coins but... huh! :(

 

It would be better not to show if a cache has trackables... well... maybe only the cache owners and the trachable owners to know.... nowone else... by that way the surprise of finding them is big, there will not be any dissapointment in case they were expecting to see trackables... and maybe proxies will be treated better in that way.... something is better than nothing! ;)

Edited by GATOULIS
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Don't know....

 

If I know that I am going to try and find a particular cache, I use the trackables list to see what the goals might be for the given trackables. I don't want to pick up a TB and carry it 100 miles to the north, if its goal is to visit Key West.

 

But then, yes, there are sick pups that could use it as a means to scout for theft.

 

I hate to say it, but maybe it is an actual design flaw in the whole concept of geocoins. They are designed to be desirable. Many are real works of art. Because they are desirable, people desire them...which means theft. Maybe nothing but proxies should be sent out! If less desirable proxies were the norm, the theives might be less interested, knowing that they were not going to be getting a pretty coin. The collectors could still purchase and trade for the fancy coins they want. Perhaps even all geocoins should come with their own plain proxy to send out in their place. It could still be 'official,' just not nearly as desirable...or interesting. I don't think TBs go missing because someone wants a drawer full of nearly identical dogtags; they go missing because of the intersting thing to which the dogtag is attached. If all the geocoin theives found were uninteresting proxies, I think they would soon lose interest in geocoins.

Edited by Fandango739
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Don't know....

 

If I know that I am going to try and find a particular cache, I use the trackables list to see what the goals might be for the given trackables. I don't want to pick up a TB and carry it 100 miles to the north, if its goal is to visit Key West.

 

But then, yes, there are sick pups that could use it as a means to scout for theft.

 

I hate to say it, but maybe it is an actual design flaw in the whole concept of geocoins. They are designed to be desirable. Many are real works of art. Because they are desirable, people desire them...which means theft. Maybe nothing but proxies should be sent out! If less desirable proxies were the norm, the theives might be less interested, knowing that they were not going to be getting a pretty coin. The collectors could still purchase and trade for the fancy coins they want. Perhaps even all geocoins should come with their own plain proxy to send out in their place. It could still be 'official,' just not nearly as desirable...or interesting. I don't think TBs go missing because someone wants a drawer full of nearly identical dogtags; they go missing because of the intersting thing to which the dogtag is attached. If all the geocoin theives found were uninteresting proxies, I think they would soon lose interest in geocoins.

 

What exactly are you basing your opinions upon? Forum posts? View these actual stats from my traveling trackables. I am including more detailed information from my geocoin travelers, because they seem to gather most of the attention from missing trackable threads. And, well, there are too many of the others to look up all of the little details.

 

Below is a list of my traveling geocoins. As you can see, every one of them has been logged within the past two months.

 

Geocoin 1: Dropped 07/2009 Last Log: Aug. 2011 Miles: 3500+

Geocoin 2: Dropped 12/2009 Last Log: Sept. 2011 Miles: 1500+

Geocoin 3: Dropped 02/2010 Last Log: Sept. 2011 Miles: 4000+

Geocoin 4: Dropped 05/2010 Last Log: Aug. 2011 Miles: 6000+

Geocoin 5: Dropped 05/2011 Last Log: Sept. 2011 Miles: 9000+

Geocoin 6: Dropped 05/2011 Last Log: Sept. 2011 Miles: 7500+

Geocoin 7: Dropped 06/2011 Last Log: Sept. 2011 Miles: 107

Geocoin 8: Dropped 07/2011 Last Log: Aug. 2011 Miles: 6000+

 

Compare to my TBs: 7 out of my 19 traveling TBs have been logged within the past 2 months. (Some are even second-release copy tags.)

 

Compare to my Tags: 7 out of my 17 traveling Travel Tags (Cachekinz and similar tags) have been logged within the past 2 months.

 

It appears as if I should only release geocoins from now on, doesn't it? :) But I also agree with goosefraba1 and Tennessee Jed; my experience has been that my trackables traveling in Europe are picked up quicker and move more reliably than those in the United States.

 

[Edited to make the dropped years clearer.]

Edited by aka Momster
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What exactly are you basing your opinions upon? Forum posts?

 

No. Human nature.

 

... a list of my traveling geocoins. As you can see, every one of them has been logged within the past two months.

I'm glad that your coins have been wracking up the miles, and quickly.

 

But miles are not what I was talking about.

I was talking about theft, not frequency of retrieval or travel.

 

Would an art thief rather steal a real Van Gogh or a copy of a Van Gogh?

Would a jewel thief rather steal diamonds or cut glass?

Would a geocoin thief rather steal a $15 geocoin or a $1 proxy?

If the only coins that were released into caches were the $1 proxy, eventually the thieves wouldn't bother raiding the caches, looking for the real $15 coins.

Edited by Fandango739
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What exactly are you basing your opinions upon? Forum posts?

 

No. Human nature.

 

... a list of my traveling geocoins. As you can see, every one of them has been logged within the past two months.

I'm glad that your coins have been wracking up the miles, and quickly.

 

But miles are not what I was talking about.

I was talking about theft, not frequency of retrieval or travel.

 

Would an art thief rather steal a real Van Gogh or a copy of a Van Gogh?

Would a jewel thief rather steal diamonds or cut glass?

Would a geocoin thief rather steal a $15 geocoin or a $1 proxy?

If the only coins that were released into caches were the $1 proxy, eventually the thieves wouldn't bother raiding the caches, looking for the real $15 coins.

 

Good comparison except a art or jewelry thief know how to get rid of their items on the black market. A geocoin or proxy thief is a selfish _ _ _

Edited by Tennessee Jed
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What exactly are you basing your opinions upon? Forum posts?

 

No. Human nature.

 

... a list of my traveling geocoins. As you can see, every one of them has been logged within the past two months.

I'm glad that your coins have been wracking up the miles, and quickly.

 

But miles are not what I was talking about.

I was talking about theft, not frequency of retrieval or travel.

 

Would an art thief rather steal a real Van Gogh or a copy of a Van Gogh?

Would a jewel thief rather steal diamonds or cut glass?

Would a geocoin thief rather steal a $15 geocoin or a $1 proxy?

If the only coins that were released into caches were the $1 proxy, eventually the thieves wouldn't bother raiding the caches, looking for the real $15 coins.

 

I, too am talking about trackable theft/loss and human nature. By looking at my trackable's stats, your opinion that geocoins are more likely to be the target of theft is not holding up in this case. A case can also be made that because geocoins are viewed as more valuable than TBs, tags or proxies, geocachers overall are more likely to remember picking them up and take better care to place them into safe caches.

 

Parallel proxy coins to the business card/sticker type of personal items vs. the personal, hand crafted ones. Originally most were collected. But over time the paper ones began to just get ignored for the most part, but the crafted ones are still traded for by cachers. If only geocoin proxies are released, as you suggested in your post, the proliferation of proxies coupled with their lack of appeal compared to metal coins, will cause them to also become the languishing bits of paper in caches that are not worth the bother to move.

 

I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them. In your #17 post, you made judgments about cachers that won't move proxies.

From my perspective, I have simply decided my icons will be of coins I have seen in hand, not of photos of coins. They are a record of my memories.

 

Take a look at my gallery and you will see that photos of almost every TB, tag and geocoin I discover or move gets added to the trackable's page for the owners to enjoy. Some are simple, others required special trips or hikes. It requires a lot of time and effort on my part to take and process those photos. Photographing and moving pictures of trackables does not give me any pleasure or sense of satisfaction, so I choose not to bother. It is a judgment of the item, not the owner. If an owner has both proxies and metal geocoins traveling, I will happily move and photograph their metal coins, TBs or tags.

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"moving pictures of trackables does not give me any pleasure or sense of satisfaction, so I choose not to bother."

 

I do not understand this response from someone who has released 13(?) geocoins. If I lost that many coins I probably wouldn't care about reusing the tracking number, what does the tracking number cost now? 2.50?

 

But if you lost maybe 150 or 200 coins would you not reuse the number by making a proxy? Some proxies represent coins that are in the owners possession, some proxies are replacements, some proxies are paper and some proxies are poker chips like mine. Whatever they are, who should judge the item or the owner who paid money for the tracking number?

 

Pleasure and satisfaction should be based on helping another cacher out, not passing judgement because something doesn't please or satisfy you. This is not your world. But if I am wrong I will get on my knees, beg for forgiveness and pray for understanding of this type of thought.

Edited by Tennessee Jed
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I gave/adopted out some of my coins, but no, Tennessee Jed, I have not lost hundreds. It wouldn't matter; I have decided that my personal choice is to not release proxies for lost coins. The car I drive is red. Our living room is painted Tickled Crow. Several of the many decisions I have made. Whoopee.

 

I go out of my way to move trackables and take photos of them for their owners. Many times it is the only photo a trackable has in the gallery. Geez, I thought those were nice things to do to help other geocachers out. Yet you chide me for choosing to not move the one small segment of proxies. That is as if I say I volunteer at the school and library, but because I do not also volunteer to do work for xyz it isn't good enough for you. Such an insignificant thing, my choice to not release or move proxies. Yet it does not please nor satisfy you, so you have voiced your judgment against me for something that is my choice alone to make.

 

You are not a geocacher I respect.

 

EDIT: d for Tickled / that. <_<

Edited by aka Momster
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Pleasure and satisfaction should be based on helping another cacher out, not passing judgement because something doesn't please or satisfy you. This is not your world. But if I am wrong I will get on my knees, beg for forgiveness and pray for understanding of this type of thought.

Although this comment is not directed at me, I take offense to it. Who are you to "pass judgement" on us...those that do not move proxies? It should not matter how many trackables someone has released to form an opinion...and just because someone formed an opinion, does not mean they are "passing judgement" on someone else. I find this whole morale discussion of proxies ridiculous...it is only a trackable item...and as much as we love 'em, they are just a blip in the grand scheme of life. You (we) are entitled to place a proxy or not...you (we) are entitled to move a proxy (or other trackable) or not.

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Pleasure and satisfaction should be based on helping another cacher out, not passing judgement because something doesn't please or satisfy you. This is not your world. But if I am wrong I will get on my knees, beg for forgiveness and pray for understanding of this type of thought.

Although this comment is not directed at me, I take offense to it. Who are you to "pass judgement" on us...those that do not move proxies? It should not matter how many trackables someone has released to form an opinion...and just because someone formed an opinion, does not mean they are "passing judgement" on someone else. I find this whole morale discussion of proxies ridiculous...it is only a trackable item...and as much as we love 'em, they are just a blip in the grand scheme of life. You (we) are entitled to place a proxy or not...you (we) are entitled to move a proxy (or other trackable) or not.

 

Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies. The topic here is about people who pass judgement on Proxies and choose to throw them away in their anger because they're displeased or unsatisfied. TJ is right, no one deserves to pass judgement without full knowledge of the facts and pleasure should be based on helping each other out. DD is right that these are just a blip in the grand scheme and people have a right to play how they like. However, playing by your own rules shouldn't impede on others their right to play the game their way, too. Everyone has a right to release trackables in their own way within the guidelines, everyone else has a right to choose to move or not move those trackables. NO ONE has a right to destroy someone else's property against their will.

 

In response to a previous comment, yes, the Geocoin has become an incredible piece of art and very desirable in nature. Sadly, the rate at which minting options, design skill and popularity increases it seems to be in direct proportion to the speed at which these coins disappear from the field. I have found it amusing that among my own released travelers and unactived dropped-in-a-cache-coins-as-a-nice-surprise coins that the coins that exhibited the most beauty and popularity uniformly disappeared fastest or were never recorded as being found while many of my less desirable coins traveled for a very long time or are still traveling today. If it were just a couple I wouldn't think it formed a pattern, but now that it's in the hundreds, I'm beginning to believe it's not coincidence.

 

edit 4 poor grammar (as usual)

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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geocachers overall are more likely to remember picking them up and take better care to place them into safe caches.

Yes, but I'm not talking about 'geocachers overall.'

I do think that the majority of geocachers are at least reasonable people and try to handle trackables with some responsibility.

But a thief thinks differently. To a theif, pretty and interesting means 'desirable target.'

 

languishing bits of paper in caches that are not worth the bother to move.

This is where one might pause to think of the trackable's owner, not the item.

 

I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them. In your #17 post, you made judgments about cachers that won't move proxies.

Incorrect. My statement was about cachers that DESTROY or THROW AWAY proxies, and not about those that don't move them. You misread the post, out fo relation to the original question being asked.

 

I have no problem if you chose not to move proxies...or anything else for that matter.

 

Thank you Fox-and-the-Hound.

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I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them. In your #17 post, you made judgments about cachers that won't move proxies.

Incorrect. My statement was about cachers that DESTROY or THROW AWAY proxies, and not about those that don't move them. You misread the post, out fo relation to the original question being asked.

 

I have no problem if you chose not to move proxies...or anything else for that matter.

 

Your choice of the word handle in the #17 post, as shown in the more complete quote of what you said below (so I don't know how to do multiquotes <shrug :rolleyes:> ), seemed to include movement of proxies as well. Thank you for clarifying that is not what the term handle meant to you.

 

QUOTE FROM #17:

3) They feel that the proxy isn't good enough for them to handle. The cacher elevates oneself to a position of judgement, a position without perspective other than the cacher's own. In this self-centered view, the cacher is failing to find compassion for, or even consider, the owner...a stranger who's situation in life is completely unknown to the proxy's finder.

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Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies.

 

Not an accurate statement, as Tennessee Jed was commenting on a post of mine that included the information that "I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them." But I am not boiling about it. :D This is just a discussion, and I am open to learning various points of view.

 

But nothing I have read on this issue has yet produced anything that has caused me to alter my opinion that my personal choice to not move or release proxies in any way hurts the game or other geocachers.

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Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies.

 

Not an accurate statement, as Tennessee Jed was commenting on a post of mine that included the information that "I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them." But I am not boiling about it. :D This is just a discussion, and I am open to learning various points of view.

 

But nothing I have read on this issue has yet produced anything that has caused me to alter my opinion that my personal choice to not move or release proxies in any way hurts the game or other geocachers.

 

Hmm... that's not how I read it at all. He notes your position on proxies in any opening line then ask for clarity on that statement.

 

He brings up a philosophical and ethical platform in the next paragraph and asks a question to the community at large. Notice he says "who should judge" rather than "who are you to judge".

 

He then follows with a closing paragraph stating his case on what he believes should be the basis of merit for pleasure and satisfaction. Of course then he follows it up with sarcasm which doesn't help his case :rolleyes:

 

At any rate my comment is raised to redirect this conversation back on topic. Which of course is what would motivate someone to deliberately destroy someone else's property? It doesn't matter that anyone chooses not to move proxies and that is not the topic at hand. Let's get back to the topic at hand. You mentioned your stats and the rate of traveling vs. non-traveling with regards to which type. I have to say that is simply amazing to me! It's the first case I've ever heard of (probably because I hear so much more about coins in general, but still...) where TBs are disappearing faster. I'm really curious if there's a way to look at the GC database to see how many coins vs. TBs are missing currently by percentage of total activated. Now that would be an eye opener I'm sure. :unsure:

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WHY? This portion of a post in another thread (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=282534) made me wonder why.

 

The whole post, by Droo:

 

Make sure when you name the coin that you include the word Proxy in it. That tells cachers hungry to find the real deal that they will have no joy here and not be disappointed. There have been too many stories of how angry folks get when they are disappointed to the point of throwing your proxy coin in the trash. Not nice, I know but something to consider. Proxies are a fact of life so if you properly label yours as such you CYA.

 

Unless they wanted to steal the coin and add it to their own collection, why would they care whether it was a real coin or a proxy? I realize the people most likely to know the answer are the least likely to give it here, so I guess I'm really just asking for speculation. I move trackables the same whether they are real coins or proxies, whether they have the original TB tag, or the "official" copy, or a homemade one. True, when I see a beautiful real coin, I do admire and enjoy it more, but it doesn't really matter to me. When I see proxies, it mostly just makes me sad that we can't send out something nice without having some jerk stealing it.

 

BRAVO !!! WELL SAID

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Don't know....

 

If I know that I am going to try and find a particular cache, I use the trackables list to see what the goals might be for the given trackables. I don't want to pick up a TB and carry it 100 miles to the north, if its goal is to visit Key West.

 

But then, yes, there are sick pups that could use it as a means to scout for theft.

 

I hate to say it, but maybe it is an actual design flaw in the whole concept of geocoins. They are designed to be desirable. Many are real works of art. Because they are desirable, people desire them...which means theft. Maybe nothing but proxies should be sent out! If less desirable proxies were the norm, the theives might be less interested, knowing that they were not going to be getting a pretty coin. The collectors could still purchase and trade for the fancy coins they want. Perhaps even all geocoins should come with their own plain proxy to send out in their place. It could still be 'official,' just not nearly as desirable...or interesting. I don't think TBs go missing because someone wants a drawer full of nearly identical dogtags; they go missing because of the intersting thing to which the dogtag is attached. If all the geocoin theives found were uninteresting proxies, I think they would soon lose interest in geocoins.

 

I LOVE IT !! i think this is the PERFECT solution.

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Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies.

 

Not an accurate statement, as Tennessee Jed was commenting on a post of mine that included the information that "I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them." But I am not boiling about it. :D This is just a discussion, and I am open to learning various points of view.

 

But nothing I have read on this issue has yet produced anything that has caused me to alter my opinion that my personal choice to not move or release proxies in any way hurts the game or other geocachers.

 

Hmm... that's not how I read it at all. He notes your position on proxies in any opening line then ask for clarity on that statement.

 

He brings up a philosophical and ethical platform in the next paragraph and asks a question to the community at large. Notice he says "who should judge" rather than "who are you to judge".

 

He then follows with a closing paragraph stating his case on what he believes should be the basis of merit for pleasure and satisfaction. Of course then he follows it up with sarcasm which doesn't help his case :rolleyes:

 

At any rate my comment is raised to redirect this conversation back on topic. Which of course is what would motivate someone to deliberately destroy someone else's property? It doesn't matter that anyone chooses not to move proxies and that is not the topic at hand. Let's get back to the topic at hand. You mentioned your stats and the rate of traveling vs. non-traveling with regards to which type. I have to say that is simply amazing to me! It's the first case I've ever heard of (probably because I hear so much more about coins in general, but still...) where TBs are disappearing faster. I'm really curious if there's a way to look at the GC database to see how many coins vs. TBs are missing currently by percentage of total activated. Now that would be an eye opener I'm sure. :unsure:

 

i'm sure the SELLERS of coins we prefer that we DIDN'T know how many were missing.

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