TillaMurphs Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 On rare occasions we've come across Triangulation Stations with no Box Score. But this one goes a step further and lists only Scaled coordinates (with 3rd order vertical elevation). - I thought all tri stations were horizontal control? (Maybe I haven’t been paying close enough attention). - Also, would there be any way to find box score information for this? TR2743 *********************************************************************** TR2743 DESIGNATION - DRAYTON ISLAND 2 TR2743 PID - TR2743 TR2743 STATE/COUNTY- WA/WHATCOM TR2743 USGS QUAD - BIRCH POINT (1994) TR2743 TR2743 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL TR2743 ___________________________________________________________________ TR2743* NAD 83(1986)- 48 58 55. (N) 122 47 13. (W) SCALED TR2743* NAVD 88 - 4.22 (+/-2cm) 13.8 (feet) VERTCON TR2743 ___________________________________________________________________ TR2743 GEOID HEIGHT- -21.19 (meters) GEOID09 TR2743 VERT ORDER - THIRD ? (See Below) TR2743 TR2743.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have TR2743.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds. TR2743 TR2743.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to TR2743.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.) TR2743.The vertical order pertains to the NGVD 29 superseded value. TR2743 TR2743.The geoid height was determined by GEOID09. TR2743 TR2743 TR2743_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 10UEV155254(NAD 83) TR2743_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK TR2743_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT TR2743_SP_SET: IN CONCRETE IN A CLAY TILE PIPE TR2743_STAMPING: DRAYTON ID 2 1939 TR2743_MARK LOGO: CGS TR2743_PROJECTION: FLUSH TR2743_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL TR2743_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO TR2743+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION TR2743_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR TR2743+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - August 02, 1984 TR2743 TR2743 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By TR2743 HISTORY - 1939 MONUMENTED CGS Quote Link to comment
+m&h Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 On rare occasions we've come across Triangulation Stations with no Box Score. But this one goes a step further and lists only Scaled coordinates (with 3rd order vertical elevation). - I thought all tri stations were horizontal control? (Maybe I haven’t been paying close enough attention). - Also, would there be any way to find box score information for this? TR2743 *********************************************************************** TR2743 DESIGNATION - DRAYTON ISLAND 2 TR2743 PID - TR2743 TR2743 STATE/COUNTY- WA/WHATCOM TR2743 USGS QUAD - BIRCH POINT (1994) TR2743 TR2743 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL TR2743 ___________________________________________________________________ TR2743* NAD 83(1986)- 48 58 55. (N) 122 47 13. (W) SCALED TR2743* NAVD 88 - 4.22 (+/-2cm) 13.8 (feet) VERTCON TR2743 ___________________________________________________________________ TR2743 GEOID HEIGHT- -21.19 (meters) GEOID09 TR2743 VERT ORDER - THIRD ? (See Below) TR2743 TR2743.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have TR2743.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds. TR2743 TR2743.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to TR2743.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.) TR2743.The vertical order pertains to the NGVD 29 superseded value. TR2743 TR2743.The geoid height was determined by GEOID09. TR2743 TR2743 TR2743_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 10UEV155254(NAD 83) TR2743_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK TR2743_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT TR2743_SP_SET: IN CONCRETE IN A CLAY TILE PIPE TR2743_STAMPING: DRAYTON ID 2 1939 TR2743_MARK LOGO: CGS TR2743_PROJECTION: FLUSH TR2743_MAGNETIC: N = NO MAGNETIC MATERIAL TR2743_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO TR2743+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION TR2743_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR TR2743+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - August 02, 1984 TR2743 TR2743 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By TR2743 HISTORY - 1939 MONUMENTED CGS Quote Link to comment
+m&h Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ugh. sorry about that fill-page quote, which we did not intend. We came across the same thing with DL 2668, CAM F, just south of Anacortes. New mark. Our tentative conclusion is that the mark is actually a DB, mistyped as a Horizontal Control mark. Your case is a little more complicated by the relatively low order of the mark in either category. Cheers, Quote Link to comment
Bill93 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Note that the recovery notes talk about reference marks, etc. like it really was a tri station. You've left out part of the NGS data sheet. The superseded NAD27 values given there for horizontal are given to full precision, indicating that it was then considered a horizontally adjusted mark of some order. For some reason I can't decipher, I'm guessing they left it out of the re-adjustment for NAD83 and downgraded it. Quote Link to comment
+EdrickV Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) That is a rather fascinating datasheet read. In 1970/1971 there are logs saying it was tipped (possibly hit by something) and then was reset. At that time RM 1 was found destroyed and was replaced with RM 3. From pictures on the Geocaching.com entry, it sounds like RM 3 and RM 2 were replaced by RM 4 and RM 5 in 1984. (Not sure which replaced which.) So it sounds to me like this particular benchmark has had a rather troubled past. Incidentally, the somewhat more modern TR2745 also appears to be a triangulation station with scaled coordinates and no box score. (Whether it still exists or not appears to be unknown.) Edited September 23, 2011 by EdrickV Quote Link to comment
kayakbird Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Many (hundreds?) of the missile sites in north-central Montana have nearby geodetic survey points consisting of triangulation station disks, rm's and az with scaled lat/long and no box score. This particular complex has four PID's all with elevation to two decimal FT. O 8 T FERGUS CO MT SR0384 DESIGNATION - O 8 T ------ SR0384 PID - SR0384 SR0384* NAD 83(1986)- 47 15 47. (N) 109 17 21. (W) SCALED SR0384* NAVD 88 - 1284.073 (meters) 4212.83 (feet) ADJUSTED ------------- SR0384_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK kayakbird Quote Link to comment
Bill93 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think I've heard that the ones put in to support the missile silos were classified, so maybe the horizontal info never got on the unclassified version of the data sheet. Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Was that disk set in 1961, or am I reading it upside down? Quote Link to comment
+LSUFan Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Was that disk set in 1961, or am I reading it upside down? Jim, you dog. I caught myself turning my head to see the if the numbers were upsid..............then just started laughing. My mind is working real slow this Friday afternoon. Quote Link to comment
DaveD Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I know that station TR2743 looks strange because it has a computed NAD 27 position but only a scaled NAD 83 coordinate. The reason is that the original observations that were used to determine the NAD 27 position were not found when we automated all the triangulation data for the NAD 83 back in the late 70s, early 80s. NGS has a strict policy that we won't publish adjusted coordinates and/or heights unless we have the supporting observations and they meet the required order of accuracy. There were several thousand stations that failed to meet these requirements at the time of the adjustment. Each of these occurances was reviewed by the well named Control Requirements Analysis Profile (CRAP) team. The only reason this station is in the NGS database is that we have accurate leveling so we can publish the height. I've updated the scaled position to an HH1 using the NAD 27 coordinates and a datum transformation program. This is somewhat similar to the missile site survey marks that others posted. The big difference there is that all of the original triangulation observations were turned over to the Army Map Service/Defense Mapping Agency and they remain classified to this day - even though all the missile sites are gone and we can easily reposition them more accurately with GPS. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Each of these occurances was reviewed by the well named Control Requirements Analysis Profile (CRAP) team. Yet another confirmation that the folks at the NGS DO have a sense of humor. I LOVE this! Quote Link to comment
TillaMurphs Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 I know that station TR2743 looks strange because it has a computed NAD 27 position but only a scaled NAD 83 coordinate. The reason is that the original observations that were used to determine the NAD 27 position were not found when we automated all the triangulation data for the NAD 83 back in the late 70s, early 80s. NGS has a strict policy that we won't publish adjusted coordinates and/or heights unless we have the supporting observations and they meet the required order of accuracy. There were several thousand stations that failed to meet these requirements at the time of the adjustment. Each of these occurances was reviewed by the well named Control Requirements Analysis Profile (CRAP) team. The only reason this station is in the NGS database is that we have accurate leveling so we can publish the height. I've updated the scaled position to an HH1 using the NAD 27 coordinates and a datum transformation program. This is somewhat similar to the missile site survey marks that others posted. The big difference there is that all of the original triangulation observations were turned over to the Army Map Service/Defense Mapping Agency and they remain classified to this day - even though all the missile sites are gone and we can easily reposition them more accurately with GPS. Mr. Doyle, Thank you for providing the answer to my query and satisfying my curiosity. I know you are very busy and I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Thanks. Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.