T5 rating that can be walked to

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Another question about a cache I just placed:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=ea39c33c-07ce-443d-b7c1-824005ab8a76

 

I placed a cache that is a kayak/canoe or boat cache. Rated it T5 for that reason. I have taken a kayak and canoe to this state park a few times.

 

Three people so far found this cache and the last two mentioned walking to it! I didn't even know you could! I think the walk must be pretty far, but I never did only kayak.

 

Since I intended this to be a kayak/canoe cache, should I leave it as T5, boat required? I have a launch suggestion in the cache page itself.

 

Or do I need to change the rating down from T5 because it can be accessed without a boat?

 

Other caches that I have in a state forest, I list the parking as a waypoint and mention where the trailhead is that I used to place. Some follow that, but others take a shorter hike, which is fine but misses what I wanted to show them.

 

Same with this cache. It was meant to get on The open water, and then the beach.

 

Thoughts?

 

If you could take a look at the map that would help too. How long is that walk?

Edited September 19, 2011 by SeekerOfTheWay

[+Walts Hunting]

Don't change it. If you do all previous finders will have their stats changed and lose a T5 that they may be depending on for a challenge.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Walts Hunting

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Is that the only reason to leave it? Only 3 people found it so far. The FTF I'm sure isn't doing a challenge because he finds every local cache.

[GOF and Bacall]

Don't change it. If you do all previous finders will have their stats changed and lose a T5 that they may be depending on for a challenge.

 

I disagree. The ratings should be an honest reflection on the difficulty of the hide/terrain. Someones challenge is irrelevant. If it was a difference of a 4.5 or a five no big deal but this looks like a 2 mile round trip on established trails. Unless there is an obstacle that isn't obvious I'd rate it a T3 tops.

 

If you wanted a paddle cache you should have placed it on one of the islands.

[+DanOCan]

I see the nearby cache is rated as a T4.5.

 

From what I could see on the map, it certainly appears to be accessible by land. Not knowing the trails and terrain in that area I can't say what the rating should be, but if the boat is the only reason it is a T5 then I think it should rated differently since special equipment isn't required -- it just might be a lot easier/more pleasant.

[+dfx]

If you don't need a boat, then it's not T5. (Well, it could be T5 for other reasons, but I don't think it is.) I'd change it.

Edited September 19, 2011 by dfx

[+mpilchfamily]

Made the terrain change. If you want the cache to require a boat of some kind to get them to the cache then the cache should be placed in an area where that is the only option. Or they have to swim to it. Either way would justify a T5 rating. If there is an alternate rout that is easier cachers will find it and use it.

[Narcosynthesis]

If it can be done without the boat, I guess it should be rated appropriately for the easiest method to get there - so if you can hike it as a t3 cache, then that should be the rating.

 

If the trail is tricky enough you didn't think it was possible to start with, will it stay at t5 or close anyway?

[+BaylorGrad]

I have asked a similar question to the folks here before, and I'm going to give the answer that I received from almost everyone: Change it.

 

If people are out there working on a challange that means something to them, they'll find another cache to meet that goal. As the cache owner, your job is to ensure that the accuracy of your cache rating is maintained.

 

---

 

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Yeah, I won't leave it because of the challenge reason. I don't care about fulfilling other peoples challenges, that's not why I rate my caches.

 

I'll have to walk it myself and then decide the rating. The other cache there is a 4.5 T and this probably will be also.

 

Thanks for the input!

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Don't change it. If you do all previous finders will have their stats changed and lose a T5 that they may be depending on for a challenge.

 

I disagree. The ratings should be an honest reflection on the difficulty of the hide/terrain. Someones challenge is irrelevant. If it was a difference of a 4.5 or a five no big deal but this looks like a 2 mile round trip on established trails. Unless there is an obstacle that isn't obvious I'd rate it a T3 tops.

 

If you wanted a paddle cache you should have placed it on one of the islands.

 

The islands are really mangroves so can't place a regular cache there. I want to specifically place on this beach.

 

There's no established trails but like I said I will have to walk the whole thing myself to see how difficult.

 

However, I intend it to be kayaked only. So, I'm still conflicted. It was placed to be a paddle cache.

 

I wouldnt place it say on the nearby mangroves as a hanging micro just to ensure it can be rated a T5.

 

But it doesn't require special equipment now either so....

Edited September 19, 2011 by SeekerOfTheWay

[GOF and Bacall]

 

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

 

Yup. You still need special equipment to get the cache.

 

Try it like this. You place a cache on an island. Come winter the lake freezes. One can now walk to the cache, no special equipment needed. How do you rate the cache?

[+mpilchfamily]

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

In that case the cache would not be available in the winter and would have to be disabled until which time it is accessible again.

 

Yup. You still need special equipment to get the cache.

 

Try it like this. You place a cache on an island. Come winter the lake freezes. One can now walk to the cache, no special equipment needed. How do you rate the cache?

Thats a much better scenario to help mix things up a bit. In that case i would mark it as the higher terrain rating but make a note that the terrain may be much lower during the winter months.

Edited September 19, 2011 by mpilchfamily

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

 

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

 

Yup. You still need special equipment to get the cache.

 

Try it like this. You place a cache on an island. Come winter the lake freezes. One can now walk to the cache, no special equipment needed. How do you rate the cache?

 

That's an interesting one!

 

Now I'm confused. I have other caches that I rated based on hiking to it. One person drove to it while the gates were open for hunting season.

 

Should I lower that one to?

 

My intention when placing is clear, I write on the cache page how I placed it, how long it took me, how many miles. I can't control how others decide to go for it...but my intention when placing is to show them something specific.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

In that case the cache would not be available in the winter and would have to be disabled until which time it is accessible again.

 

Yup. You still need special equipment to get the cache.

 

Try it like this. You place a cache on an island. Come winter the lake freezes. One can now walk to the cache, no special equipment needed. How do you rate the cache?

Thats a much better scenario to help mix things up a bit. In that case i would mark it as the higher terrain rating but make a note that the terrain may be much lower during the winter months.

 

Maybe I'll do that for my cache.

[+Too Tall John]

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

Considering the inaccuracies of a GPS and the fact that, at least around here, the ice almost never freezes clear, you'd have to be digging a pretty big hole in the ice in order to find this one in the winter unless you're using a metal detector. So, you'll be using special equipment then, too: either the detector and/or the ice-safety equipment necessary for working around such a large hole.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what you'd use for a container for such a cache. It has to float and yet be durable enough to stand up to the pressures of winter ice (which can be significant) and the beating it'll take from getting chipped out of the lake. You'd be better off anchoring it deeper and making it a scuba cache. This won't stop the winter hunters, either. There's a scuba cache near me that has been found through the ice.

[GOF and Bacall]

Don't change it. If you do all previous finders will have their stats changed and lose a T5 that they may be depending on for a challenge.

 

I disagree. The ratings should be an honest reflection on the difficulty of the hide/terrain. Someones challenge is irrelevant. If it was a difference of a 4.5 or a five no big deal but this looks like a 2 mile round trip on established trails. Unless there is an obstacle that isn't obvious I'd rate it a T3 tops.

 

If you wanted a paddle cache you should have placed it on one of the islands.

 

The islands are really mangroves so can't place a regular cache there. I want to specifically place on this beach.

 

There's no established trails but like I said I will have to walk the whole thing myself to see how difficult.

 

However, I intend it to be kayaked only. So, I'm still conflicted. It was placed to be a paddle cache.

 

I wouldnt place it say on the nearby mangroves as a hanging micro just to ensure it can be rated a T5.

 

But it doesn't require special equipment now either so....

 

I've been looking at Google Earth. There are obvious trails that are well established. It doesn't look like there are any real obstacles. No major elevation changes. Only about a mile each way. It really doesn't sound like that hard an approach. But yeah, walk it and see. Or if you trust those who have found it ask them what they think the hike should be rated.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Yeah, I won't leave it because of the challenge reason. I don't care about fulfilling other peoples challenges, that's not why I rate my caches.

 

I'll have to walk it myself and then decide the rating. The other cache there is a 4.5 T and this probably will be also.

 

Thanks for the input!

 

Looking at the Bird's Eye view in Bing maps, and the park's website, it appears there's a path right to the cache location. I suspect it's closer to a 2 Terrain.

[GOF and Bacall]

But with that said, let me shake things up a bit:

 

You hide a cache that sits 6 inches below the surface of the water in the middle of a lake (Terrain=5, of course). During the winter, the lake freezes solid for about 4 months straight. a pick axe will get you to the cache in just a few minutes. What terrain rating do you give the cache? Given the risks of walking on a frozen lake, do you keep the terrain a 5?

In that case the cache would not be available in the winter and would have to be disabled until which time it is accessible again.

 

Yup. You still need special equipment to get the cache.

 

Try it like this. You place a cache on an island. Come winter the lake freezes. One can now walk to the cache, no special equipment needed. How do you rate the cache?

Thats a much better scenario to help mix things up a bit. In that case i would mark it as the higher terrain rating but make a note that the terrain may be much lower during the winter months.

 

Maybe I'll do that for my cache.

 

I don't think yours fits that scenario. The normal, available every day, rout is by way of the trails. The paddle approach is entirely optional even if it was what you had in mind.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Palmetto? What do you think?

 

I wish I could block the path! Lol.

[+Too Tall John]

Palmetto? What do you think?

 

I wish I could block the path! Lol.

I know you aren't serious, but I can't help it:

Geocache placements do not deface or destroy public or private property. Geocaches are placed so that the surrounding environment is safe from both intentional or unintentional harm. Keep both natural and human-made objects safe. No object or property may be altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Too Tall John

[+lamoracke]

I would not factor in ice walking into the terrain difficulty....I suppose I do not know your area, but I would be more afraid to walk across the ice to get a cache and almost any boat cache in your area would be under similar scenarios.

 

We have a few boat caches in the Seattle area that are 4.5 or 5 terrain that can be walked to during really dry times or really really low tides. If the vast majority of the time the cache needs a boat, I would say leave it with the high rating.

 

If one can find a low tide almost every other day or weeek and walk to it, lower it.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Palmetto? What do you think?

 

I wish I could block the path! Lol.

I know you aren't serious, but I can't help it:

Geocache placements do not deface or destroy public or private property. Geocaches are placed so that the surrounding environment is safe from both intentional or unintentional harm. Keep both natural and human-made objects safe. No object or property may be altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

I was kidding about blocking the trail, or the beach. It would be hard to block an entire beach! Lol!

 

"Palmetto" is the name of my local reviewer. I value her opinion so was shouting for her. Ha. I actually just emailed her and asked what she thought.

Edited September 19, 2011 by SeekerOfTheWay

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

I would not factor in ice walking into the terrain difficulty....I suppose I do not know your area, but I would be more afraid to walk across the ice to get a cache and almost any boat cache in your area would be under similar scenarios.

 

We have a few boat caches in the Seattle area that are 4.5 or 5 terrain that can be walked to during really dry times or really really low tides. If the vast majority of the time the cache needs a boat, I would say leave it with the high rating.

 

If one can find a low tide almost every other day or weeek and walk to it, lower it.

 

Na, looks like can be walked to all year. I think it is a 4-5 mile hike. I'm going to email the ones who walked it.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

After hearing back from the reviewer I changed it up. Changed the cache title from Paddle to Explore, changed the T rating.

 

Left on cache page that is intended to be paddle cache but is accessible from other locations, including trail.

 

Reviewer said probably most folks will get this cache by land. Is probably true.

 

If they decide to kayak, that's cool.

[+GeoTrekker26]

I would not factor in ice walking into the terrain difficulty....I suppose I do not know your area, but I would be more afraid to walk across the ice to get a cache and almost any boat cache in your area would be under similar scenarios.

 

We have a few boat caches in the Seattle area that are 4.5 or 5 terrain that can be walked to during really dry times or really really low tides. If the vast majority of the time the cache needs a boat, I would say leave it with the high rating.

 

If one can find a low tide almost every other day or weeek and walk to it, lower it.

 

Na, looks like can be walked to all year. I think it is a 4-5 mile hike. I'm going to email the ones who walked it.

 

Using the measuring tool in Google maps, it is a 1.12 mile walk from the parking lot at the end of Gulf Blvd to the cache. Note the measuring tools allows you to follow the bends and twists of a trail which I did. A pleasant 2.25 mile round trip walk would be a 2.5 or 3 star rating. The guidelines say over 2 miles is 3 star, but this is barely over 2 miles and appears to be a very easy walk (level terrain), so 2.5 would be appropriate.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

I rated it a 2 because it is level.

 

I wish people would stop walking my kayak caches!

 

Thanks for using the Google Measuring tool. I don't have a computer so I was looking at Google Maps on my phone and trying to guess how far!

Edited September 19, 2011 by SeekerOfTheWay

[+lamoracke]

as a person who is not an avid boater (or swimmer)...if it was me, I would find any way possible to walk to a cache than boat to it. Some folks are probably the reverse. Just be glad folks enjoy and do your caches, however they get there.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

as a person who is not an avid boater (or swimmer)...if it was me, I would find any way possible to walk to a cache than boat to it. Some folks are probably the reverse. Just be glad folks enjoy and do your caches, however they get there.

 

I tried that last weekend on a cache in a management area. Topos showed a trail that reached the cache.

 

Topos may have been correct at some point, but no longer. I was able to get within .25 miles and the trail dissolved into laurels and swamp. I wound up doing the cache with a kayak, but I may go back in the dead of winter and try the overland route again, just to prove to myself it can be done.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Hopefully changing the rating from a T 5 won't make it harder to search for as a kayak cache. I know when I want to canoe or kayak, I filter looking for T 5's.

[+Too Tall John]

Hopefully changing the rating from a T 5 won't make it harder to search for as a kayak cache. I know when I want to canoe or kayak, I filter looking for T 5's.

Why not filter for the "Boat Required" Attribute?

[+nittany dave]

Hopefully changing the rating from a T 5 won't make it harder to search for as a kayak cache. I know when I want to canoe or kayak, I filter looking for T 5's.

Why not filter for the "Boat Required" Attribute?

I have owned many caches that are intended for kayak/canoe access but can be hiked to. I always rate the terrain what I think the hike would be but I've never hiked to any of them so it's just a guess. I say on the cache page that access by boat is intended but not required. I also don't use the boat required attribute because technically, it isn't required if you can hike in. If you're looking for caches you can kayak to, you'll need to look at terrain and attributes and still you won't get them all.

I wish the boat required attribute had a "boat recommended" option.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Actually I still have the boat attribute that I need to remove. I'm hoping since. the map shows it near water, that those looking to ka6ak wont miss it.

[GOF and Bacall]

Start a public bookmark list of kayak friendly caches in your area. your fellow kayakers will be pleased.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Start a public bookmark list of kayak friendly caches in your area. your fellow kayakers will be pleased.

 

That's a good idea, thanks.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I've seen a few caches that were intended to be accessed via boat/kayak/canoe but could be bushwacked if you really tried. They were listed as T 4.5 with the Boat Required attribute; the description explained the situation.

[+briansnat]

If you don't need a boat, then it's not T5. (Well, it could be T5 for other reasons, but I don't think it is.) I'd change it.

 

I agree, obviously boat is not required. It still may be a pretty high terrain rating.

[+CanadianRockies]

Up here in the Great White North, I simply wait for winter to come (usually doesn't take long) then walk across the ice to find a "boat required" cache.

 

Seriously, Ms. CR and I have had some enjoyable and memorable hikes to these T5 caches, which are intended for paddlers. It's a different kind of experience, and it's cheaper than renting a boat. We're certainly not the only geocachers who do this. So far, we haven't heard any complaints from the cache owners. I'm glad they are tolerant and allow us to enjoy this activity as we see fit.

[AZcachemeister]

Many 'Boat Required' caches can be found without a boat for those willing to put out the extra effort needed.

I have seen T5 caches so rated because the owner used a 4WD vehicle to drive there. I can certainly walk anywhere a 4WD vehicle can go...it will just take me longer to get there.

[+BaylorGrad]

I would not factor in ice walking into the terrain difficulty....I suppose I do not know your area, but I would be more afraid to walk across the ice to get a cache and almost any boat cache in your area would be under similar scenarios.

 

We have a few boat caches in the Seattle area that are 4.5 or 5 terrain that can be walked to during really dry times or really really low tides. If the vast majority of the time the cache needs a boat, I would say leave it with the high rating.

 

If one can find a low tide almost every other day or weeek and walk to it, lower it.

 

In our hypothetical scenario, it wasn't the ice walking that would keep the T5, it would be the pick axe that I mentioned and then having to chop through the ice with it. The island scenario much better reflects what I was trying to say...

 

And is much more confusing!

[Clan Riffster]

Since I intended this to be a kayak/canoe cache, should I leave it as T5, boat required? I have a launch suggestion in the cache page itself.

 

Or do I need to change the rating down from T5 because it can be accessed without a boat?

At this point, I would give it a "Meh". You can't control how folks will access your cache. It probably should not have been rated as a T-5, but since it's already been found, I'd likely leave the D/T alone. You might toss in an explanation on the cache page to the effect of;

 

"This cache has two distinct routes. One route is a T-5, requiring a boat. This is by far my favorite route, as I simply love paddling these waters. The other route requires a hike of just over two miles. As you can see, the D/T is ultimately up to you. My quandary was, how to rate it? The easiest possible route, (T-2), or the hardest possible route, (T-5). Both ratings are accurate, depending on the seeker, so how to choose? Flip a coin? Ask Miss Cleo? I decided to rate it as a T-5 because I prefer paddling over hiking. I hope you will seek it out by aquatic means as well, but the choice is yours."

Edited September 20, 2011 by Clan Riffster

[GOF and Bacall]

Since I intended this to be a kayak/canoe cache, should I leave it as T5, boat required? I have a launch suggestion in the cache page itself.

 

Or do I need to change the rating down from T5 because it can be accessed without a boat?

At this point, I would give it a "Meh". You can't control how folks will access your cache. It probably should not have been rated as a T-5, but since it's already been found, I'd likely leave the D/T alone. You might toss in an explanation on the cache page to the effect of;

 

"This cache has two distinct routes. One route is a T-5, requiring a boat. This is by far my favorite route, as I simply love paddling these waters. The other route requires a hike of just over two miles. As you can see, the D/T is ultimately up to you. My quandary was, how to rate it? The easiest possible route, (T-2), or the hardest possible route, (T-5). Both ratings are accurate, depending on the seeker, so how to choose? Flip a coin? Ask Miss Cleo? I decided to rate it as a T-5 because I prefer paddling over hiking. I hope you will seek it out by aquatic means as well, but the choice is yours."

 

I still think the rating should as accurately reflect the cache as is possible. This one is a two mile round trip hike on a sandy trail. Depending on the condition of that trail two or three stars terrain. It is only 5 if the finder wants to make it harder than needed. That could be said for any cache. An average LPC is a five if you choose to get there via parachute. That doesn't mean it should be rated that way on the cache page.

[GOF and Bacall]

I would not factor in ice walking into the terrain difficulty....I suppose I do not know your area, but I would be more afraid to walk across the ice to get a cache and almost any boat cache in your area would be under similar scenarios.

 

We have a few boat caches in the Seattle area that are 4.5 or 5 terrain that can be walked to during really dry times or really really low tides. If the vast majority of the time the cache needs a boat, I would say leave it with the high rating.

 

If one can find a low tide almost every other day or weeek and walk to it, lower it.

 

In our hypothetical scenario, it wasn't the ice walking that would keep the T5, it would be the pick axe that I mentioned and then having to chop through the ice with it. The island scenario much better reflects what I was trying to say...

 

And is much more confusing!

 

We have one on an island near us. Many of the finders have walked to it when the creek is frozen.But that is actually only for a few days a year. It is rated at five stars for terrain. About as accurate as needed because the window is so small. The normal approach available is by canoe or kayak.

[+WarNinjas]

This reminds me I need to change the rating on some caches my daughter and I placed. Where we parked there was a big hill to climb. We were there the next day and found cachers that had parked at a different spot and it was actually really easy to get to. I'm glad we found them as now they are easier to maintain! Thanks for this post as we are going to be placing a couple of kayak to only caches and I will keep this in mind.

-WarNinjas

[Clan Riffster]

I still think the rating should as accurately reflect the cache as is possible.

Hard to argue with that. But I'd still give it a "Meh" at this point.

Is it inaccurate? Yeah. I would call it a T-2, at best. But what's done is done.

At least with an explanation on the cache page folks won't have to wonder about it.

If I were to hunt that one it would be by kayak.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

I still think the rating should as accurately reflect the cache as is possible.

Hard to argue with that. But I'd still give it a "Meh" at this point.

Is it inaccurate? Yeah. I would call it a T-2, at best. But what's done is done.

At least with an explanation on the cache page folks won't have to wonder about it.

If I were to hunt that one it would be by kayak.

 

Come find it! Have Dale and Barb added kayak rentals yet? When they do, I'm doing the T5s over that way!

[+A & J Tooling]

All the high difficulty river caches around here, I'm just waiting for the rivers to lower in the fall and then I'm walking to them. You can't plan for everything.

[GOF and Bacall]

I still think the rating should as accurately reflect the cache as is possible.

Hard to argue with that. But I'd still give it a "Meh" at this point.

Is it inaccurate? Yeah. I would call it a T-2, at best. But what's done is done.

At least with an explanation on the cache page folks won't have to wonder about it.

If I were to hunt that one it would be by kayak.

 

Ah, but what is done can be undone. Or did the last update break the ability to edit a cache page?

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

Haha. Well, it was undone yesterday. I already changed the cache name from Paddle...to Explore, and made the T a 2, and added some notes on te cache page.

 

I think it's good to go now.

[GOF and Bacall]

Haha. Well, it was undone yesterday. I already changed the cache name from Paddle...to Explore, and made the T a 2, and added some notes on te cache page.

 

I think it's good to go now.

 

Yeah, I saw that. I think you are just trying to kill our conversation. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, I'm just kidding already.