legal issues & guardrails

[+JL_HSTRE]

Heard from a very reputable Florida cacher:

 

They were told by a law enforcement officer that it is a federal offense to place anything on a guardrail if it is on a "highway" (defined by the officer as any federal or state road). Local roads do not fall under that same law.

 

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this? I would assume the offense is actually tampering with a guardrail; placing a magkey GRIM would only be illegal if you find an officer that wants to really loosely intemperate tampering (or whatever the legal term is). I'm sure this would have come up with a long time ago if that were exactly the law, especially when the VADOT banned GRIMs not long ago.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Addendum recieved from another FL geocacher:

 

All uses of state owned transportation rights of way, including use of structures on the rights of way, for non-transportation purposes are strictly prohibited by law. Violation of those provisions are enforced by the Florida Highway Patrol, Florida DOT Motor Carrier Compliance and other law enforcement agencies and carry penalties involving possible fine or imprisonment for each separate offense. The Department of Transportation will advise law enforcement officials if we become aware of specific instances of these activities on state rights of way because of our responsibility to ensure public safety on all state transportation facilities.

 

Ken Towcimak

Director, Office of Right of Way

Florida Deptartment of Transportation

 

Sure sounds like someone could be fined/arrested for a GRIM, though I don't think it has ever happened?

[+briansnat]

I doubt it is a federal offense but it certainly is against many state laws. I think it's Virginia where the state's DOT and attorney general have specifically stated that caches are not welcome on any DOT property, which means street signs and guardrails and I believe they also mean local roads too.

Edited September 12, 2011 by briansnat

[Clan Riffster]

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this?

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

[+t4e]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

Edited September 12, 2011 by t4e

[+GeoBain]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Which region would that be? There's not a U.S. forum. There are several subforums for different areas of the U.S., but this isn't a Northwest or Great Plains only issue. This board seems to be the most appropriate place to have the discussion.

[+EdrickV]

If the cache hider were to obtain explicit permission from the DoT then maybe it wouldn't be an issue. (Don't know specifically about Florida, but I think there are NGS benchmarks placed on/near "highway" rights of way that it seems would technically violate that kind of law if used.)

[+Manville Possum]

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this?

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

I'm one of the few that removed/relocated my guardrail hides, and I agree with you that this issue will be ignored by Groundspeak. And I'm glad it will be ignored because it all started between two geocachers. One was acting like a bully, and the other was defiant. They should have settled it on the play ground, but someone had BIG friends.

 

I'm a registered voter in the Commonwealth, and I'm a geocacher.

[+Hypnopaedia]

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this?

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

I'm one of the few that removed/relocated my guardrail hides, and I agree with you that this issue will be ignored by Groundspeak. And I'm glad it will be ignored because it all started between two geocachers. One was acting like a bully, and the other was defiant. They should have settled it on the play ground, but someone had BIG friends.

 

I'm a registered voter in the Commonwealth, and I'm a geocacher.

 

If you could elaborate on that story, sans names, I think it would be quite enlightening to us cachers who are unfamiliar with said situation.

[+Manville Possum]

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this?

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

I'm one of the few that removed/relocated my guardrail hides, and I agree with you that this issue will be ignored by Groundspeak. And I'm glad it will be ignored because it all started between two geocachers. One was acting like a bully, and the other was defiant. They should have settled it on the play ground, but someone had BIG friends.

 

I'm a registered voter in the Commonwealth, and I'm a geocacher.

 

If you could elaborate on that story, sans names, I think it would be quite enlightening to us cachers who are unfamiliar with said situation.

All I can tell you is search this thread, that's where I got my imformation. I saw a local archiving some of their listings, and knew that they worked for VDOT. Then a request (NA) popped up asking that a cache be archived to comply with VDOT, and the cache was archived by the reviewer. That's when I checked the forums and found this: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=272212&st=250&p=4746201&hl=vdot guardrails&fromsearch=1entry4746201

 

Looks like it's not to be discussed here, so you are on your own from here on out.

[+t4e]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Which region would that be? There's not a U.S. forum. There are several subforums for different areas of the U.S., but this isn't a Northwest or Great Plains only issue. This board seems to be the most appropriate place to have the discussion.

 

OP is talking about Florida, which is his home too, so South and Southeast section will be fitting

[+mikemtn]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Which region would that be? There's not a U.S. forum. There are several subforums for different areas of the U.S., but this isn't a Northwest or Great Plains only issue. This board seems to be the most appropriate place to have the discussion.

 

OP is talking about Florida, which is his home too, so South and Southeast section will be fitting

HUH!!!

[AZcachemeister]

 

 

OP is talking about Florida, which is his home too, so South and Southeast section will be fitting

 

Perhaps the issue applies equally to all (or many other) states, only we don't know it yet?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they do have such laws in most states...to prevent people from placing advertising signs is one reason I can think of.

[+GeoBain]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Which region would that be? There's not a U.S. forum. There are several subforums for different areas of the U.S., but this isn't a Northwest or Great Plains only issue. This board seems to be the most appropriate place to have the discussion.

 

OP is talking about Florida, which is his home too, so South and Southeast section will be fitting

I saw Virginia and federal mentioned too. I didn't catch the request being specific for Florida. Since federal law was mentioned I am curious if that is true or if the issue is strictly a state/regional one.

[+geodarts]

Can any law enforcement officers or other legal minds clarify this?

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

 

Most (if not all) states and other jurisdictions undoubtedly have similar laws or regulations to that raised by the OP. My state (California) broadly prohibits an "object of any kind or character placed . . . in, under or over" any state or county highway. Or to put it another way, a "device of any description" unless there is a written permit. I think that such sections could be interpreted to apply to guard rail caches, among other things. As Groundspeak stated when the original ET caches were archived, it comes down to a matter of permission.

 

However, I agree that Groundspeak will ignore the issue unless they are contacted by state officials, just as they generally will ignore permission issues with other placements unless the property owner or manager contacts them. But I also have to believe that my state is well-aware of caching, given the number of times bomb squads have been called to the side of state or county highways. So while that would not equate with the kind of authorization required by law, it is not something that the state has chosen to pursue at this time. At some point, it is possible that an agency could decide that these kind of placements are creating generalized traffic hazards and take action similar to the VDOT, but until then both parties seem to be operating under a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of situation, trying to avoid dealing with the implications of a game that was not invented when these laws were first enacted.

Edited September 12, 2011 by geodarts

[+Ike 13]

Yes, it's illegal.

Yes, Groundspeak will ignore the issue.

Not in SC. Old ones are probably still out there, but new ones are not going to be published. From what I understand in a parking lot it's okay, but along a road not so much. SCDOT would never give permission for such a placement, and would remove it if found. I doubt they would go to the trouble of a lawsuit.

[+B+L]

not an issue in Canada

That's an awfully bold assertion. Citation, please.

[+WalruZ]

If the guardrail is along a busy street or highway then it's a lame hide in the first place.

[+geodarts]

not an issue in Canada

 

Maybe or maybe not. In British Columbia, for instance, Section 63 of the Transportation Act states, "A person must not use, occupy or construct/deposit anything to a highway, or to any land or improvement related to a highway, without written authorization from the minister, or as otherwise authorized by law." So if a cache was construed as being a use or as something deposited within a right of way or to an improvement to a highway, then there could be an issue (assuming Canada has guard rails and/or guard rail hides). In general, the basic legalities seem the same most any place.

Edited September 12, 2011 by geodarts

[+JL_HSTRE]

So the verdict is they are definitely illegal in Florida and probably illegal in every other state, but so far only VA and SC are enforcing the issue - and by enforcing meaning explicitly telling Groundspeak and trashing the ones they do find)?

 

Regarding Benchmarks on such roads: I would think they are placed with permission, especially since they are usually either placed by a gov't agency or by a private company surveying for work related to the road?

[+humboldt flier]

If the guardrail is along a busy street or highway then it's a lame hide in the first place.

 

10 / 4 to that

[+Frank Broughton]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Lol - you guys (my close neighbors to the north) are killing me with your minutia, should we be looking for three days of detailed posts on the subject? hahahahahahahaha

[+t4e]

not an issue in Canada

That's an awfully bold assertion. Citation, please.

 

until i see otherwise i will maintain is not an issue

 

not an issue in Canada

 

Maybe or maybe not. In British Columbia, for instance, Section 63 of the Transportation Act states, "A person must not use, occupy or construct/deposit anything to a highway, or to any land or improvement related to a highway, without written authorization from the minister, or as otherwise authorized by law." So if a cache was construed as being a use or as something deposited within a right of way or to an improvement to a highway, then there could be an issue (assuming Canada has guard rails and/or guard rail hides). In general, the basic legalities seem the same most any place.

 

i don;t see any reference to a guard rail, besides not every road is a highway

 

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Lol - you guys (my close neighbors to the north) are killing me with your minutia, should we be looking for three days of detailed posts on the subject? hahahahahahahaha

 

aren't we adorable?

[+Coldgears]

T4E is upset he lives in America's Hat. No, but seriously. This thread belongs here, same law applies in PA, I know this for a fact. PA is not in the same region as Florida.

[Clan Riffster]

until i see otherwise i will maintain is not an issue

The Internet equivalent of closing your eyes, cramming fingers in your ears and yelling "La la la I can't hear you la la la"

[+B+L]

not an issue in Canada

That's an awfully bold assertion. Citation, please.

until i see otherwise i will maintain is not an issue

Yes, that is the prevailing conceit. It is not local to Florida. Or Canada.

[+geodarts]

i don;t see any reference to a guard rail, besides not every road is a highway

 

A guard rail, of course, would be part of the highway or an improvement related to it. And as a general rule in the province, any travelled road that is funded with public money is classified as a highway. But it is only an example to note that we have a lot in common. . . . including jurisdictions that require authorization to use certain property.

Edited September 13, 2011 by geodarts

[+Frank Broughton]

Maybe or maybe not. In British Columbia, for instance, Section 63 of the Transportation Act states, "A person must not use, occupy or construct/deposit anything to a highway, or to any land or improvement related to a highway, without written authorization from the minister, or as otherwise authorized by law." So if a cache was construed as being a use or as something deposited within a right of way or to an improvement to a highway, then there could be an issue (assuming Canada has guard rails and/or guard rail hides). In general, the basic legalities seem the same most any place.

 

i don;t see any reference to a guard rail, besides not every road is a highway

 

Yes, adorable t4e - and may I add in reference to your response above - here we go with the minutia - hahahahahahahah

[+popokiiti]

There is a new Ministry of Transportation directive for BC - have a look...

http://wizardofooze.com/%20/reviewer/ministry-of-transportation-directive

[+EdrickV]

So the verdict is they are definitely illegal in Florida and probably illegal in every other state, but so far only VA and SC are enforcing the issue - and by enforcing meaning explicitly telling Groundspeak and trashing the ones they do find)?

 

Regarding Benchmarks on such roads: I would think they are placed with permission, especially since they are usually either placed by a gov't agency or by a private company surveying for work related to the road?

 

Placing benchmarks wasn't what I was thinking about, I was thinking of surveyors using benchmarks as part of their job. Though I suppose there may be other laws that create an exception for on the job surveyors.

[+Frank Broughton]

There is a new Ministry of Transportation directive for BC - have a look...

http://wizardofooze....ation-directive

 

eh - the correct section after all..... t4e see - haha

Edited September 13, 2011 by Frank Broughton

[+wimseyguy]

File that one under 'be careful what you wish for'.

[+thebruce0]

I just think caches on guardrails along a high speed highway are simply unsafe. Off the road, perhaps. But a guardrail? Those are typically mere feet from oncoming traffic. IMO, worse than LPC's, illegal or no.

[knowschad]

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Even if your statement is true about current Canadian laws, that doesn't mean that this issue is not germane to Canadians or geocachers elsewhere. What is not true for you today may very well be true for you tomorrow. You do have guardrails there, don't you? Besides, this could also be an issue in countries other than the U.S.

[+t4e]

T4E is upset he lives in America's Hat.

 

not at all because (s)he knows that we are bigger and are on top

 

There is a new Ministry of Transportation directive for BC - have a look...

http://wizardofooze.com/%20/reviewer/ministry-of-transportation-directive

 

i sure hope that will never make its way to Nova Scotia, otherwise Canada's oldest cache is doomed, not to mention a lot more caches out there

 

There is a new Ministry of Transportation directive for BC - have a look...

http://wizardofooze....ation-directive

 

eh - the correct section after all..... t4e see - haha

 

/me covers ears and spins around singing loudly.....lalalalalalalalalalalalala

 

 

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

 

Even if your statement is true about current Canadian laws, that doesn't mean that this issue is not germane to Canadians or geocachers elsewhere. What is not true for you today may very well be true for you tomorrow. You do have guardrails there, don't you? Besides, this could also be an issue in countries other than the U.S.

 

perhaps i should have made my statement clearer....

 

there are guardrails in other places than along highways, i would think, or at least hope that no intelligent human being would put a cache on a guardrail along a busy road or highway

there are guardrails along country roads, at dead ends, along designated viewing areas along scenic routes and so on...i see no problem with putting a cache on those guardrails

Edited September 14, 2011 by t4e

[AZcachemeister]

...hope that no intelligent human being would put a cache on a guardrail along a busy road or highway

 

 

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but they do.

That's why we are discussing it here.

 

While a 'guardrail' cache may not be very creative, there is no doubt there are places where one would be acceptable.

 

For (a bad) example, I have found a cache inside the collapsing structure at a bridge abutment on a fairly busy four-lane road. To get the cache, I had to remove the plastic 'air-bag' cushion inside the structure.

 

Something like this:

[knowschad]

T4E is upset he lives in America's Hat.

 

not at all because (s)he knows that we are bigger and are on top

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

Even if your statement is true about current Canadian laws, that doesn't mean that this issue is not germane to Canadians or geocachers elsewhere. What is not true for you today may very well be true for you tomorrow. You do have guardrails there, don't you? Besides, this could also be an issue in countries other than the U.S.

perhaps i should have made my statement clearer....

 

there are guardrails in other places than along highways, i would think, or at least hope that no intelligent human being would put a cache on a guardrail along a busy road or highway

there are guardrails along country roads, at dead ends, along designated viewing areas along scenic routes and so on...i see no problem with putting a cache on those guardrails

 

If that is a clarifying statement, it sounds as though you are saying that this thread should be posted in a certain regional U.S. forum where human beings are less intelligent than your average Canadian. However, I'm sure that is not what you meant, so I must still be misunderstanding you.

[+Frank Broughton]

T4E is upset he lives in America's Hat.

 

not at all because (s)he knows that we are bigger and are on top

not an issue in Canada

since this is the general, "all nations" geocaching forums and this seems to be a US specific issue why not start the thread in that region's forum?

Even if your statement is true about current Canadian laws, that doesn't mean that this issue is not germane to Canadians or geocachers elsewhere. What is not true for you today may very well be true for you tomorrow. You do have guardrails there, don't you? Besides, this could also be an issue in countries other than the U.S.

perhaps i should have made my statement clearer....

 

there are guardrails in other places than along highways, i would think, or at least hope that no intelligent human being would put a cache on a guardrail along a busy road or highway

there are guardrails along country roads, at dead ends, along designated viewing areas along scenic routes and so on...i see no problem with putting a cache on those guardrails

 

If that is a clarifying statement, it sounds as though you are saying that this thread should be posted in a certain regional U.S. forum where human beings are less intelligent than your average Canadian. However, I'm sure that is not what you meant, so I must still be misunderstanding you.

 

You is!

[+t4e]

 

If that is a clarifying statement, it sounds as though you are saying that this thread should be posted in a certain regional U.S. forum where human beings are less intelligent than your average Canadian. However, I'm sure that is not what you meant, so I must still be misunderstanding you.

 

not saying that at all, i'm sure there's lots of such caches in Canada too

 

somewhere along the line replies got mixed up between the original comment that this should be in the Florida section, since the OP referred strictly to that state, and the challenge on my comment that placing caches on guardrails in canada is not an issue as in its not illegal

 

but i think this is starting to get confusing and easy to get off topic so we better just leave it at that before we get poked by the forum authorities

[+GeoBain]

If that is a clarifying statement, it sounds as though you are saying that this thread should be posted in a certain regional U.S. forum where human beings are less intelligent than your average Canadian. However, I'm sure that is not what you meant, so I must still be misunderstanding you.

 

Dats awright. We knows we aint as smart as dem dar kanooks is. But us rednecks can make arr own whisky and arr own smokes too. Day aint too many things us ole boyz caint do.

[+The Geo-Secret Agent]

Guardrail hides are generally magnetic micros anyway which suck eggs.Guardrail = Senseless micro, boring, no creativity, worth (NUTHIN')Why even bother with them? Go out and hide a small or better and do everyone a favor. Something big enough for SWAG.NUF SAID

[+JL_HSTRE]

For (a bad) example, I have found a cache inside the collapsing structure at a bridge abutment on a fairly busy four-lane road. To get the cache, I had to remove the plastic 'air-bag' cushion inside the structure.

 

Did you report that to a Reviewer?

[+t4e]

Guardrail hides are generally magnetic micros anyway which suck eggs.Guardrail = Senseless micro, boring, no creativity, worth (NUTHIN')Why even bother with them? Go out and hide a small or better and do everyone a favor. Something big enough for SWAG.NUF SAID

 

you like stereotyping, don't you?

 

there are always exceptions and the view you get from going for this magnetic guardrail hide is one of them

 

i thought geocaching is about taking people to a nice spot, well some nice spots can't accommodate anything bigger than a micro

 

 

[+The Geo-Secret Agent]

Guardrail hides are generally magnetic micros anyway which suck eggs.Guardrail = Senseless micro, boring, no creativity, worth (NUTHIN')Why even bother with them? Go out and hide a small or better and do everyone a favor. Something big enough for SWAG.NUF SAID

 

you like stereotyping, don't you?

 

there are always exceptions and the view you get from going for this magnetic guardrail hide is one of them

 

i thought geocaching is about taking people to a nice spot, well some nice spots can't accommodate anything bigger than a micro

 

 

 

Thank you for double confirming my point. The pictures you show here confirm my quote. Judging by the pictures shown, I could find a spot here for a nice sized container for certain, instead of just a drive by like the guardrail you show in the pictures. This area doesn't even look like it would be safe to park in, let alone a park and grab guardrail cache. So, without furthering any discussion I'll just state MY opinion (not speaking for anyone else). Guardrail drive by caches don't even set a person up for enjoying a nice view like these pictures. I'd rather pull off to park and take a short walk which would allow me more time to enjoy instead of standing next to the road, (in the open) grabbing a micro. DONE.

[Clan Riffster]

well some nice spots can't accommodate anything bigger than a micro

 

You may be right. Personally, I've never seen a spot which contained a micro, that could not support something bigger, but since I've only found a few hundred micros, I freely admit that there may, actually be such a spot, somewhere. I am curious as to why you chose that particular photograph to represent your claim? I've found a regular affixed to that same type of guardrail. It lasted 4.5 years, and 270 finds. It was archived because some locals were using the area to dump trash, and it lost its visual appeal. All it took was a smidgen of creativity to go from a hide-a-key to a full size cache.

[+t4e]

 

Thank you for double confirming my point. The pictures you show here confirm my quote. Judging by the pictures shown, I could find a spot here for a nice sized container for certain, instead of just a drive by like the guardrail you show in the pictures. This area doesn't even look like it would be safe to park in, let alone a park and grab guardrail cache. So, without furthering any discussion I'll just state MY opinion (not speaking for anyone else). Guardrail drive by caches don't even set a person up for enjoying a nice view like these pictures. I'd rather pull off to park and take a short walk which would allow me more time to enjoy instead of standing next to the road, (in the open) grabbing a micro. DONE.

 

nope, you just proved once again that you like to stereotype....other than speculations what basis do you have for your comments?

 

1st..no, the area has no possible spot for a bigger cache...behind the guardrail there's an edge about 3 feet wide leading to a 100 foot straight drop to the road bellow

 

2nd...that spot has ample parking for at least 6-7 cars because it is a designated viewing point

 

 

 

I am curious as to why you chose that particular photograph to represent your claim? I've found a regular affixed to that same type of guardrail. It lasted 4.5 years, and 270 finds. It was archived because some locals were using the area to dump trash, and it lost its visual appeal. All it took was a smidgen of creativity to go from a hide-a-key to a full size cache.

 

i choose that because it does have a micro on the guardrail and because it was in reply to The Geo-Secret Agent that wrote off every possible guardrail placement

if you read my comment above there is no way of having anything bigger, and that's because a lot of people stop there to take in the view, so a micro is less likely to be spotted

Edited September 15, 2011 by t4e

[knowschad]

What has "hide the largest cache possible" to do with guardrail legal issues?

[+GeoBain]

What has "hide the largest cache possible" to do with guardrail legal issues?

 

Where have you been? It has EVERYTHING to do with it. These are the forums after all.

[Clan Riffster]

if you read my comment above there is no way of having anything bigger, and that's because a lot of people stop there to take in the view, so a micro is less likely to be spotted

Of course there is a way to have something bigger. I've already demonstrated that. Your argument is a copout to creativity.

 

(Disclaimer: To forgo any possible concerns from any rasta-hat wearing pooches regarding bigger is better, allow me to point out that this is not the direction I was going. For those who want to hide micros on guard rails, have at it! Just don't insult our intelligence by claiming you chose that size because "there's no way of having anything bigger". We've found bigger, much bigger, in fairly active spots, so we know better. If you choose a micro because you are a cheapskate, I'm OK with that. If you choose a micro because you are too mentally lazy to apply a hint of creativity to your hides, I'm OK with that. If you choose a micro because you like micros, I'm OK with that too. As long as you are upfront about your reasons when the subject comes up.)

[+GeoBain]

If you choose a micro because you are too mentally lazy to apply a hint of creativity to your hides, I'm OK with that.

 

What if they just lack creativity altogether. Would it not follow that they would believe that nothing but a micro would work? Why does it have to be laziness?

 

And why insult us by saying you are ok with laziness and cheapness? Why not be honest and say you aren't ok with it, but at least you respect that a tiny bit more than saying you can't hide anything larger there?

 

(You're not really ok with laziness and cheapness are you?)