Trying to get it right

[+BlueMoth]

Where to start? Well, after reading some of the threads on this forum, I promptly went back and deleted most of my benchmark finds that I could not verify without a photo. There are a couple that I have photos of, and will add, I just have to dig them out of my files. Seems that there is a protocal on benchmark logging that I didn't understand. I am trying to figure it out properly, and first thing is saying thank you for all the information I see on this forum.

 

Second thing is that when I am out caching and find a benchmark, I take a photo of it. I don't actively look for them, I just find them. Going back over my photos, I have a dozen or so photos of usgs benchmarks and simply cannot figure out which ones they are, or if I do figure out which ones they are, I cannot find them on the NGS benchmark viewer or on any data sheets.

 

I just found one a couple of days ago in Marion County Oregon. The designation is BM 103 and it is within 15 feet of this cacheDead Fairies I looked on the gc topo map next to the cache, and it shows the benchmark, but it is not listed anywhere I can find, nor is it on the NGS benchmark viewer.

 

I took a photo

http://http://img.geocaching.com/cache/a3458a5f-1f36-49d7-b0d1-937f83e295b1.jpg

and you can see that it is a usgs benchmark, not in very good shape though. So now what do I do?

 

I have several examples of this, don't want to get too overwhelming and post a bunch of pics right off the bat.

 

Thanks for any help you all can give me.

Edited September 6, 2011 by BlueMoth

[+DukeOfURL01]

In order to find it, search the marks by coordinates, using the coordinates of the mark that you took at the time, the closest mark that is returned is probably it, but verify that it's the right mark by matching the markings with the one described on the datasheet. Remember, 99% of the time, only NGS benchmarks are going to be listed.

[+BlueMoth]

In order to find it, search the marks by coordinates, using the coordinates of the mark that you took at the time, the closest mark that is returned is probably it, but verify that it's the right mark by matching the markings with the one described on the datasheet. Remember, 99% of the time, only NGS benchmarks are going to be listed.

 

Well, the thing is, I have never taken the coordinates of the benchmarks I have found. Supid now in retrospect, I will have to start doing that.

 

I can usually figure out where I took a photo of a benchmark, based on my caching photos, and yes, most of them are near caches I have found.

 

The example I posted however, is not in the data sheets, nor in the NGS benchmark viewer.

[+DukeOfURL01]

Sometimes, marks are placed very close to each other though, thus making it very difficult to figure out which is the right one.

[kayakbird]

BlueMoth,

 

I think that you may have been too harsh on yourself and purged marks that were legitimate finds. Photos are not absolutely required - I logged dozens before some nudges here sent me shopping for a digital camera and then back tracked to document a few of the questionable ones. It is nice to be able verify that the stamping matches the Data Sheet.

 

Of course your photo of BM at CROWN POINT

 

 

doesn't match the stamping because of clerical errors that neglect to say that it was actually placed in 1916 and not 1938 when it was first described.

RD2197 HISTORY - 1938 MONUMENTED USGS

RD2197 HISTORY - 1951 SEE DESCRIPTION CGS

RD2197 HISTORY - 20040814 GOOD USPSQD

RD2197 HISTORY - 20060924 GOOD USPSQD

RD2197

RD2197 STATION DESCRIPTION

RD2197

RD2197'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1938 (WMS)

RD2197'STATION IS A U.S.G.S. BENCH MARK AT CROWN POINT. AN ALUMINUM

 

Your other photo does match the description

 

 

RD2197'U.S.G.S. BENCH MARK TABLET SET IN THE CENTER OF THE SCROLL-LIKE END

RD2197'OF THE CONCRETE RAIL ALONG THE WALK BORDERING THE HIGHWAY AT THE W

RD2197'END OF THE SAID RAIL AND ABOUT 2-1/2 FEET ABOVE THE WALK.

 

Did you keep any kind of field notes with location information: GPSr Lat/Long (DDD MM SS.s please) is the most helpful, but distance and direction from a cache could be used to home in on what you did find. I was unable to open your BM 103 photo.

 

I just filtered my six month old GSAK file for Oregon and see that nearly ten percent (1903 of 19698, Montana has 1772 of 15911) are USGS. I did not find your BM 103. There is a USGS 103 A at 45 42 35.0 121 30 43 (PID RC1581). Is that close to yours?

 

Please post here, or contact me off forum, with any information that you have on the ones you deleted.

 

kayakbird

[+LSUFan]

 

and you can see that it is a usgs benchmark, not in very good shape though. So now what do I do?

 

 

BlueMoth, welcome to the world of benchmarking, and congratulations on wanting to get it all correct. There is a little learning curve, but you will get it.

 

Your question is probably the most common one in these forums (I asked it myself). Hopefully, the following which is copied from the benchmarking FAQ's will help....including on what to do with USGS disks not listed in the NGS database:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/

 

Benchmarks Not in the Database

 

I found a benchmark, but it isn't in the database. Why?

 

To answer this question, you need to understand a bit about what "the database" is. The database used by Geocaching.com is a copy (from around 2000) of the database that NGS maintains. Although the NGS database has lots of marks in it, it does not have them all. In order for a mark to get into NGS's database, it has to go through a process known as "bluebooking" which ensures the disk meets the minimum requirements to be of geodetic quality (aka the highest quality possible). The NGS is not the only organization that creates and uses benchmarks and other types of control markers. In order for any mark to get "in the database" they must be "bluebooked", which can take a lot of time and effort and is often not done to save money. Remember, even though some marks might not be in the database, they are still highly important, both to businesses and to individual citizens such as your neighbors, so please treat them with respect, while enjoying the thrill of the hunt. We'll try to find other databases and add them to the site as well. If you have access to one of these databases and would like to submit it to Groundspeak, contact us.

Since the Groundspeak benchmark database was obtained from the NGS in the year 2000, newer benchmarks and recent reports on older marks will not be visible here in Groundspeak's copy. Besides new disks, there are many cases of benchmarks monumented significantly before 2000 but entered the NGS database only after the year 2000.

 

The benchmark I found is not in the database, how can I log it?

 

If the benchmark is a disk-type marker or is referenced in an online database, you can log your find in the US Benchmarks category in Groundspeak's Waymarking site.

If the benchmark is in Canada, you can log it in the Canadian Benchmarks category in Waymarking.

 

I found a U.S. Geological Survey bench mark where there is a "BM" mark on a topographic map, but it isn't in the database. Where can I find more information about this kind of mark and how can I log them?

 

The U.S. Geological survey (USGS) established thousands of benchmarks to help them make their topographic maps. The number next to the "BM" is the originally measured elevation of the disk. A large number of these USGS marks are not in the NGS database be cause they were never "bluebooked" as explained in the section above. The NGS and the USGS are separate government agencies so the inclusion of USGS marks in the NGS database is not automatic. Unfortunately the USGS did not get their paper records of benchmark location notes onto computer files. This makes those USGS marks that are not in the NGS database quite a challenge to find! You can log USGS disks you find that are not in the database in the US Benchmarks category in Groundspeak's Waymarking site.

Edited September 6, 2011 by LSUFan

[+BlueMoth]

BlueMoth,

 

I think that you may have been too harsh on yourself and purged marks that were legitimate finds. Photos are not absolutely required - I logged dozens before some nudges here sent me shopping for a digital camera and then back tracked to document a few of the questionable ones. It is nice to be able verify that the stamping matches the Data Sheet.

 

Of course your photo of BM at CROWN POINT

 

 

doesn't match the stamping because of clerical errors that neglect to say that it was actually placed in 1916 and not 1938 when it was first described.

RD2197 HISTORY - 1938 MONUMENTED USGS

RD2197 HISTORY - 1951 SEE DESCRIPTION CGS

RD2197 HISTORY - 20040814 GOOD USPSQD

RD2197 HISTORY - 20060924 GOOD USPSQD

RD2197

RD2197 STATION DESCRIPTION

RD2197

RD2197'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1938 (WMS)

RD2197'STATION IS A U.S.G.S. BENCH MARK AT CROWN POINT. AN ALUMINUM

 

Your other photo does match the description

 

 

RD2197'U.S.G.S. BENCH MARK TABLET SET IN THE CENTER OF THE SCROLL-LIKE END

RD2197'OF THE CONCRETE RAIL ALONG THE WALK BORDERING THE HIGHWAY AT THE W

RD2197'END OF THE SAID RAIL AND ABOUT 2-1/2 FEET ABOVE THE WALK.

 

Did you keep any kind of field notes with location information: GPSr Lat/Long (DDD MM SS.s please) is the most helpful, but distance and direction from a cache could be used to home in on what you did find. I was unable to open your BM 103 photo.

 

I just filtered my six month old GSAK file for Oregon and see that nearly ten percent (1903 of 19698, Montana has 1772 of 15911) are USGS. I did not find your BM 103. There is a USGS 103 A at 45 42 35.0 121 30 43 (PID RC1581). Is that close to yours?

 

Please post here, or contact me off forum, with any information that you have on the ones you deleted.

 

kayakbird

 

Oh, lord, I feel like my head is about to explode.

 

So it is ok to log a benchmark without a photo? Ok, just want to clarify that.

 

Umm, photo for BM 103

http://http://img.geocaching.com/user/31945b47-34db-4072-9ef0-97d79befe03c.jpg

 

It was withing 10 feet of the geocache, and the topo map shows it as designation BM 103, so I suppose that is what it has to be. Hope this photo comes out.

 

well, shoot that one didn't work either.. I have it downloaded both to my profile page and to an archive cache. I don't know why it isn't showing up in the link

Edited September 6, 2011 by BlueMoth

[+BlueMoth]

 

and you can see that it is a usgs benchmark, not in very good shape though. So now what do I do?

 

 

BlueMoth, welcome to the world of benchmarking, and congratulations on wanting to get it all correct. There is a little learning curve, but you will get it.

 

Your question is probably the most common one in these forums (I asked it myself). Hopefully, the following which is copied from the benchmarking FAQ's will help....including on what to do with USGS disks not listed in the NGS database:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/

 

Benchmarks Not in the Database

 

I found a benchmark, but it isn't in the database. Why?

 

To answer this question, you need to understand a bit about what "the database" is. The database used by Geocaching.com is a copy (from around 2000) of the database that NGS maintains. Although the NGS database has lots of marks in it, it does not have them all. In order for a mark to get into NGS's database, it has to go through a process known as "bluebooking" which ensures the disk meets the minimum requirements to be of geodetic quality (aka the highest quality possible). The NGS is not the only organization that creates and uses benchmarks and other types of control markers. In order for any mark to get "in the database" they must be "bluebooked", which can take a lot of time and effort and is often not done to save money. Remember, even though some marks might not be in the database, they are still highly important, both to businesses and to individual citizens such as your neighbors, so please treat them with respect, while enjoying the thrill of the hunt. We'll try to find other databases and add them to the site as well. If you have access to one of these databases and would like to submit it to Groundspeak, contact us.

Since the Groundspeak benchmark database was obtained from the NGS in the year 2000, newer benchmarks and recent reports on older marks will not be visible here in Groundspeak's copy. Besides new disks, there are many cases of benchmarks monumented significantly before 2000 but entered the NGS database only after the year 2000.

 

The benchmark I found is not in the database, how can I log it?

 

If the benchmark is a disk-type marker or is referenced in an online database, you can log your find in the US Benchmarks category in Groundspeak's Waymarking site.

If the benchmark is in Canada, you can log it in the Canadian Benchmarks category in Waymarking.

 

I found a U.S. Geological Survey bench mark where there is a "BM" mark on a topographic map, but it isn't in the database. Where can I find more information about this kind of mark and how can I log them?

 

The U.S. Geological survey (USGS) established thousands of benchmarks to help them make their topographic maps. The number next to the "BM" is the originally measured elevation of the disk. A large number of these USGS marks are not in the NGS database be cause they were never "bluebooked" as explained in the section above. The NGS and the USGS are separate government agencies so the inclusion of USGS marks in the NGS database is not automatic. Unfortunately the USGS did not get their paper records of benchmark location notes onto computer files. This makes those USGS marks that are not in the NGS database quite a challenge to find! You can log USGS disks you find that are not in the database in the US Benchmarks category in Groundspeak's Waymarking site.

 

LSUFan, thank you for the information. I guess I can try Waymarking. I think I fiugred it out and here is the photo of the benchmark

[kayakbird]

BlueMoth,

 

The photo you attached (easiest way to get it in the system is to scab it onto a PID that you have logged; with an explanation note) is of a early 1900's Coast & Geodetic Survey Bench Mark. If placed in 1916 and later it was supposed to have a designation/name and year date field stamped.

 

Can't tell if the center circle has a center slash, which after 1924 meant it was a tidal bench mark.

 

Still waiting to see its Lat/Long. kayakbird

[+LSUFan]

I know all the government agency acronyms can get confusing too.

 

The USGS (United States Geological Survey) and the USC&GS (United States Coast & Geodetic Survey)are two different agencies.....but almost have the same letters so you have to be mindful of them.

 

The USC&GS is what is now the NGS (National Geodetic Survey) and is the database we use on geocaching.com. Here are some links to both of them, and helps explain their different functions and purposes.

 

These links are great reading (when you have time)......explaining the NSRS (more acronyms) and the history of the USGS (many pages)

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/web/about_ngs/history/

 

http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/foundations/spatial/welcome.html

 

http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/c1050/intro.htm

Edited September 7, 2011 by LSUFan

[Bill93]

I think photos are a good idea but do not consider them a requirement.

 

What is really important is that you compare what you find to the stamping, the agency name, and the description of where it was placed as recorded on the data sheet. Don't get misled by scaled coordinates - read the description to see if it is the right stamping, on the right end of the bridge or whatever, and has the right kind of mounting.

 

There are sometimes discrepancies, but most of those are explainable as simple mistakes. If too many things don't match, then you have to figure that it was another disk set by somebody else, and not the one on the data sheet you were looking at.

[68-eldo]

Corrected URL for BM 103 is

http://img.geocaching.com/user/31945b47-34db-4072-9ef0-97d79befe03c.jpg

 

Too many http://'s in the other link.

[TillaMurphs]

Hi BlueMoth,

 

I also think you may have been too harsh in your self criticism. It looks like you are off to a great start with Benchmarking. You have already received a lot of great advice from many of the experts here so there is not much we can add at this point.

 

However, we live in the same general part of Oregon that you do and if you ever need any local help please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

The TillaMurphs

[+EdrickV]

If you really wanted to know more about the BM 103 disk you found, you could contact the USGS. There's a thread about the USGS here talking about their interest in recovery reports. (If I were you, I would probably go out to it some day, get a nice set of photos of the disk and it's surroundings, get some good averaged coordinates, and then contact them.) You could then create an entry for it on Waymarking.com if you wanted to. (There are some BM 103's on there, but not in Oregon. So right now that mark doesn't exist in any online database, but is probably in the USGS's paper records somewhere.)

Edited September 7, 2011 by EdrickV

[+BlueMoth]

Thank you everyone for your kind replies and support and encouragement. I really like benchmark hunting as it is like an unexpected surprise every time I stumble upon one.

 

Maybe with a little practice, I can get better at it.

 

I will read all the links provided and learn as I go.

 

As to BM 103, the nearest coordinates I can provide are that of the nearby geocache GCYK9H, which is not more than 15 or 20 feet away.

 

N45 15.758 W122 50.620

 

The benchmark is set into the wall of some kind of concrete ruins directly on the south bank of the Willamette river. I believe at this spot there was a ferry landing, which was dismantled in the 1950's.

 

So maybe it was some kind of tidal mark. The next time I am down that way, I will try to get better photos of the mark, the wall and the surroundings.

[kayakbird]

BlueMoth,

 

I pinned your L/L on GE and then went to GSAK and found two nearby 1920 strings of CGS (U.S.Coast & Geodetic Survey) marks - ALPHA 13 & 14 - which have the disk with a slash in the center circle. I was hoping that yours would fall in line and be a NONPID missing letter. No luck there - the closest is X 13 RD0251 which was logged FOUND in 2010 after being logged DESTROYED in 2008.

 

Further snooping along that level run brought me to

 

RD0247

 

which was DESTROYED in 2009 by my favorite 'ARMCHAIR' logger in 2009 and also logged FOUND by Sidetrippers with the above excellent photographic proof in 2010.

 

And another one : THREE WEEKS AGO

 

Looks like you have a lot of potential older targets out there. Hope that you will go after some of my favorite CGS+SS (COAST & GEODETIC AND STATE SURVEY) marks from 1934.

 

kayakbird

Edited September 7, 2011 by kayakbird

[Wintertime]

Where to start? Well, after reading some of the threads on this forum, I promptly went back and deleted most of my benchmark finds that I could not verify without a photo.

You really didn't need to do that! You probably saw a discussion on this forum of our frustration with people logging benchmarks incorrectly, and a suggestion that maybe a photo should be required in order to claim credit for the benchmark on Geocaching.com. But no such requirement currently exists, so if you're confident that you found the right mark, go ahead and log it!

 

I just found one a couple of days ago in Marion County Oregon. The designation is BM 103 and it is within 15 feet of this cacheDead Fairies I looked on the gc topo map next to the cache, and it shows the benchmark, but it is not listed anywhere I can find, nor is it on the NGS benchmark viewer.

Then it probably isn't in the NGS database, sorry.

 

A nice thing about marks near caches is that you can click on the "Find...all nearby benchmarks" link on the cache page and see whether the mark you found shows up on the resulting list. In the case of Dead Fairies, the closest mark in the NGS database (or rather, in Groundspeak's snapshot of the database from a decade ago) is 0.2 miles away, so I'm afraid the one you found isn't listed. But other times, checking for marks near a cache will turn up something! Good luck.

 

Patty

[TillaMurphs]

BlueMoth,

 

... Further snooping along that level run brought me to

 

RD0247

 

which was DESTROYED in 2009 by my favorite 'ARMCHAIR' logger in 2009 and also logged FOUND by Sidetrippers with the above excellent photographic proof in 2010.

 

And another one : THREE WEEKS AGO

 

kayakbird

 

Goodness - he "destroyed" both of those and one was only a few weeks ago. Congrats to m&h for quickly correcting the most recent one and to Sidetrippers for fixing the other.

 

His reports are considerably better. He is no longer destroying benchmarks just because previous datasheet descriptions had a mention of destruction or problems or difficult circumstances. It looks like he at least investigated TR0688 before destroying it. It appears he is no longer Armchairing.

Edited September 9, 2011 by TillaMurphs

[+BlueMoth]

Yeah, everyone's rants about bogus benchmark logging put the fear of great and powerful benchmark gods into me. I thought maybe I would get struck down without a photo. The ones I deleted, its ok. I can go back and get photos some other time.

 

And btw, what is the protocal about logging a benchmark find. Just factual? Not writing some longwinded thing about how I almost got flattened by a car when I crossed the road, or the knock a buzzard over smell of the dead skunk in the ditch?

 

Also, I don't get why someone would go around marking benchmarks as destroyed when they have no proof that they are. Scratches head. Is is just a mean trouble making thing?

 

Well, on to the mysterious benchmark I found. I went back and took another look and took more photos. I carefully examined the disk and someone has gouged the center out with repeated blows. Gad. Any identifying marks are completely gone. So I will probably never know what it was supposed to say.

 

The wall of the benchmark.

 

the benchmark.

 

gouge marks.

[+LSUFan]

 

And btw, what is the protocal about logging a benchmark find. Just factual? Not writing some longwinded thing about how I almost got flattened by a car when I crossed the road, or the knock a buzzard over smell of the dead skunk in the ditch?

 

 

On GC.Com logs, I think it is OK to say whatever you want. If you have an experience that deserves telling, I tend to believe that all of your fellow benchmarkers would like to read it.

 

Ex: "and the smell was so bad that it would have made a skunk commit suicide"

 

Now if you log with the NGS, just factual.........and in the same terminology as you read on the actual datasheets.

 

Edited September 11, 2011 by LSUFan

[kayakbird]

 

Well, on to the mysterious benchmark I found. I went back and took another look and took more photos. I carefully examined the disk and someone has gouged the center out with repeated blows. Gad. Any identifying marks are completely gone. So I will probably never know what it was supposed to say.

 

The wall of the benchmark.

 

 

BlueMoth,

 

Thanks for taking the time for a return visit. Did you by chance verify the Lat/Long?

 

I have convinced myself that it is Y 13, set off line in 1920 for some reason and maybe it's record was lost so it didn't get a PID. There are posters on this forum that are pretty good at pulling up information on these old level runs.

 

Another good mystery. kayakbird.

[AZcachemeister]

...it is OK to say whatever you want. If you have an experience that deserves telling, I tend to believe that all of your fellow benchmarkers would like to read it.

 

Ex: "and the smell was so bad that it would have made a skunk commit suicide"

 

Now if you log with the NGS, just factual.........and in the same terminology as you read on the actual datasheets.

/quote]

 

Ditto that.

For Geocaching logs, you may be as 'witty' as you like. Tell us about the weather. You slid down the hill on your a**?

 

NGS logs should be confined to the minimum terse facts, partly because someone actually has to manually type your text into the datasheet.

[Wintertime]

NGS logs should be confined to the minimum terse facts, partly because someone actually has to manually type your text into the datasheet.

Although amusing comments do slip into those now and again. What was the one somebody found once that suggested that people wishing to recover the mark should bring a helicopter and 25' of rope?