"Cords off just a bit"

[+Team Bad Clown]

Hello all,

 

We are Team Bad Clown. We have been in Geocaching for about a year now, 100+ finds and 5 hides so far. As geocachers we understand our GPSr isnt perfect, the system is flawed +/- 30 feet if we understand correctly. Meaning if today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide. So why do we keep getting 100's of logs saying "your cords were off just a bit"? isn't that a lame thing to say? if our combined natural error was only 5 or 10 feet we think that's a pretty good day, and part of the thrill of the hunt for our team. In closing we would just like to say, please leave those words out of the log. Thanks for your time and allowing us to blow off that bit of steam here.

[+Max and 99]

I feel your pain. I know what you mean.

15 ft. is the norm.

We have some new cachers here who placed dozens of hides in the last couple of weeks, almost all with bad coords (some over 100 ft). But these cachers are logging DNFs on so many other caches, telling the owner that "your coords are off because our gps took us 60 ft. into the woods."

They just don't get that it's THEM!!!!

 

I really understand what you are saying. If the coords are off just a little bit, do they really need to say it in the log? "A little bit" is expected! I agree that it's frustrating to get those comments in a log.

 

Take the comments with a grain of salt, and if most cachers are saying the same thing, maybe go out and adjust the coords? I have occasionally done that when a cache is new, even thought I take over 100 averages before marking the spot.

[+Chokecherry]

Well it's nice of them to just say just a bit. And it's nice for other finders to know that the coordinates will not necessarily be accurate and if you are consistently getting those logs on your caches then your coordinates are not accurate. The only caches I see that mentioned on are where many of the finders are getting there and ending up with the same problem with inaccurate coordinates. I've also see the damage inaccurate coordinates does to the surrounding area. Ripped up landscaping, trampled down vegetation, tore up areas. Just not cute.

 

There's a hider in my area who purposely will use soft coordinates because he thinks it's funny. It's really not.

 

Typically I will post how many feet and in what direction if the coordinates are really off in my logs. Yeah there's a margin or error with all units but that should not be an excuse to be less than diligent as a cache owner getting accurate coordinates. Like I said if you literally have 100's of logs on your 5 hides something is wrong with your coordinates.

[+wildchld97]

Hello all,

 

We are Team Bad Clown. We have been in Geocaching for about a year now, 100+ finds and 5 hides so far. As geocachers we understand our GPSr isnt perfect, the system is flawed +/- 30 feet if we understand correctly. Meaning if today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide. So why do we keep getting 100's of logs saying "your cords were off just a bit"? isn't that a lame thing to say? if our combined natural error was only 5 or 10 feet we think that's a pretty good day, and part of the thrill of the hunt for our team. In closing we would just like to say, please leave those words out of the log. Thanks for your time and allowing us to blow off that bit of steam here.

 

Sometimes, if there's a lot of trees it could throw the coord's off a bit. Many times, if a person goes to find a cache and they notice that the coord's are WAY off, they'll include them in the log to help others. Personally, I'm grateful for a person to mention that the coord's were off so I'm not hunting around scratching my head at GZ when it's actually 20-30 feet away.

 

The only thing I can suggest is to maybe go to the cache and re-check the coord's that you took. It just may be that you need to update them. That should end the "coord's were off a bit" logs.

[+captnemo]

If you are using a smart? phone or they are using a smart? phone that might be the problem. They are not near as good as a GPSr. When I place a cache, I average out the coordinates a 100 times or so and use what I end up with. I then leave the cache and return to it several times to verify the coordinates. I did have one finder state the coordinates were off, so I went out and checked them as above and they were right on. So I posted a note to the cache page stating so.

Edited September 5, 2011 by captnemo

[+terrkan78]

One thing you can do that might stop people from leaving logs like that is put an owner maintenance note on the cache saying you went out and rechecked your coords, that your averaged dozens of readings, etc. So they understand that you've really tried to get as accurate a reading as possible.

[+kunarion]

f today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide. So why do we keep getting 100's of logs saying "your cords were off just a bit"?

Have you taken a look at the satellite map? If you mean GC30FZJ, unless you've got a real tricky asphalt hide, your coords are off just a bit.

 

It's important to have informative logs. People should also include the direction of correction -- one local cache was off by 75 feet in one direction, noted in lots of logs. But maybe your location has jumpy readings, and that's good to know, too. One log I like is "coords were spot on", which I've gotten on my caches, coords which I went way beyond reason to obtain.

 

I agree with Chokecherry, that people are diplomatic in their logs. They may have wanted to be more, well, informative, but are being polite instead. They got to the reasonable vicinity, it's not a tough find, let's just call it close enough. Just off, a bit.

Edited September 5, 2011 by kunarion

[AZcachemeister]

I see this from time-to-time, and I just let it roll off 'Like water...'.

50-100 finds, and suddenly someone feels the need to chime in and say the numbers are off 'a bit'?

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, 'What a maroon!'

[+frogcooke]

I'm fairly new to caching, but i'll only really post that if they are a decent bit off.

 

A recent cache we visited was a good deal off. And seeing as we read the logs it was good to know. It was apparently bout 60+ some off feet off by even people with gpsr. There was a lot of trees but my droid was even telling me 120+ feet off and i knew enough that i didnt have to go bushwacking because of the posted logs.

 

Same happened with another thats about 30 feet off from the coords. While also helped us to find that particular cache as well. Since the posted coords looked to be where a cache would have been hidden.

 

Even though i use a droid it does pretty well. Most caches well within the margin of error. Some even only a few feet away.

[+Ike 13]

The expected range or error is much smaller in more modern units. I expect to be within 15-20 feet, and will usually get much much better accuracy than that on any cache placed in the last few years. I usually only comment if it's more than 30 and that's more for other searchers than the CO. I think it's good information when you're having difficulty and you can read logs where other people say the coordinates are off x feet. In some areas 30 ft accuracy is the best that can be achieved I understand that so it's not an insult it's just a piece of info to help others.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Yes. There are many cachers who think that their GPS is perfect, and that coords should lead you exactly to ground zero. They do not seem to understand the concept of accuracy. And that is their problem.

That being said, there is a magor difference between caching in the suburbs, or exurbs, or the urbs. GPS accuracy can be atrocious in a major city, like New York. Sometimes Gupy will tell me that I'm several blocks off!

Went looking for a cache today. Gupy and the maps on Gupy said 'west side of the street'. We found the cache on the east side of the street, and a bit south. Only about 65' off, but for this one I did supply corrected coords. Out in the forest, I would not have mentioned a problem at 65 feet. But in downtown Hoboken, this is a magor problem.

[+user13371]

But y'know, sometimes coords ARE a bit off.

 

This one, for example, had several logs in a row said "Coords pointed to neighbors backyard, but cache can be reached from sidewalk." Another hider around here FREQUENTLY mentions in his cache descriptions "Coords are bouncy" -- and sometimes adds "My Oregon said THIS, my iPhome said THAT, and Google Earth coords are..." Very often if you check aerial view, his coords point to the middle of a street or parking lot. A total spaz.

 

So take the logs with a grain of salt -- first time you see one, if there's any doubt, check your numbers or poll your other finders. Then fix as needed or let it go. Nobody is doing it to tweak you, they're probably trying to be genuinely helpful.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Portland Cyclist

[+Walts Hunting]

You could email everyone who does that to one of your caches and say this

 

I am sorry your GPS was off just a bit.

[+dfx]

As geocachers we understand our GPSr isnt perfect, the system is flawed +/- 30 feet if we understand correctly. Meaning if today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide.

 

That's not quite the full story. A good GPS has, under good reception conditions, a typical accuracy of well below that, below 15 feet and even below 10 feet. If the cache is then found more than double of that away, then it's safe to say that the coords are "a bit off".

[+briansnat]

If you're getting 100s of logs saying your coords are off a bit, perhaps they are off more than a bit and people are just being nice.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Maybe it's time to go back and average your coords a few more times. Just saying.

[+Too Tall John]

As geocachers we understand our GPSr isnt perfect, the system is flawed +/- 30 feet if we understand correctly. Meaning if today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide. So why do we keep getting 100's of logs saying "your cords were off just a bit"? isn't that a lame thing to say?

First: In terms of GPS error, the +- error doesn't add up, it actually forms a sort of fuzzy circle. Secondly, I've not checked it recently, but I seem to remember that my GPS is rated for closer to 15 feet than 30 feet, so even if the error ranges added up, what you're calling acceptable is twice that of what I'd call ok. Finally, you haven't received 100's of logs saying your coords are off, you haven't received 100's of logs at all. At the time of this posting, you don't even have 100! Reading over your 99 logs, I found about a half dozen references to wandering coordinates, all on one cache. Out of 32 logs, it might be worth checking your numbers, but it might be nothing.

 

Edit: Realized I only counted "Found It" logs. You can add 6 more onto the count if you want to count Notes, Needs Maintenance, and Owner Maintenance logs. 5 more if you want to count Published logs.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Too Tall John

[+edscott]

In my experience "just off a bit" is usually a nicer way of saying the coordinates are lousy.

Edited September 6, 2011 by edscott

[+Rckhnd]

Maybe try zooming in on your cache with satellite imagery and see if the location shown is indeed where you placed the cache. I did one yesterday that was on the wrong side of a trail by about 60 yards. When I got home and checked, the satellite pic did show the area I was looking in, not even close to where the cache actually was.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Rckhnd

[+edscott]

Maybe try zooming in on your cache with satellite imagery and see if the location shown is indeed where you placed the cache. I did one yesterday that was on the wrong side of a trail by about 60 yards. When I got home and checked, the satellite pic did show the area I was looking in, not even close to where the cache actually was.

 

This is true much more often than most people want to believe. Satellite images are not always perfect but they are often more accurate than the posted coordinates.

[+briansnat]

Yes. There are many cachers who think that their GPS is perfect, and that coords should lead you exactly to ground zero. They do not seem to understand the concept of accuracy. And that is their problem.

 

If he received a few of these logs I'd tend to agree with you. But he says he's getting a LOT of them. That makes me suspicious. I've placed many caches and have received thousands of logs. Out of those thousands of logs I could probably count the complaints about coordinates on my hands and toes with a digit or two left over.

 

Not that my coordinates are all that great, but they are apparently close enough that finders don't think the discrepancy is worth mentioning. If "hundreds" of people mention that coords are off, I suspect the problem is with the coordinates.

[+Packanack]

Every once in awhile you transpose a number of something similar. One time I did that an was a mile off.

 

A local guy actually made the find and his log showed on a cache that I dnf'd earlier in the same day. It turned out that the CO did not own a gps and was using google earth to place the cache.

 

Distance from original: 605.3 feet or 184.5 meters.

 

I asked him how he did it, he told me that while he was out scratching his head, the cache page was changed, which he saw on his smart phone and as he was driving away he saw the hint item mentioned.

[+edscott]

Every once in awhile you transpose a number of something similar. One time I did that an was a mile off.

 

A local guy actually made the find and his log showed on a cache that I dnf'd earlier in the same day. It turned out that the CO did not own a gps and was using google earth to place the cache.

 

Distance from original: 605.3 feet or 184.5 meters.

 

I asked him how he did it, he told me that while he was out scratching his head, the cache page was changed, which he saw on his smart phone and as he was driving away he saw the hint item mentioned.

 

Not saying Google maps are never off that far, but I'd guess the hider was also misinterpreting the satellite image.

[+hzoi]

Normally I will log that our GPSr was off of the listed coordinates by x feet, or words to that effect.

 

If the coordinates are off by more than 40 feet, I let the GPSr settle down, do some averaging, and then post the coords I got with my log. Most times, when I follow up after doing this, I read that other cachers have used our coords to go straight to the cache. So, I've got that going for me, which is nice.

[+EdrickV]

If in woods, I would not expect exact coordinates. In logs like that I may mention the the GPS jumping around or leading me around in circles, and that I used Geosenses instead to make the find. That's there as a tip for finders to come so that they may not chase the GPS as much.

 

In a relatively open area though, my Tilt smartphone has actually led me right to a cache. I'd say 15' or better. (On some test coordinates I setup for a possible future hide, the GPS leads me right to that specific spot, within a couple feet. But then, it's kind of hard to use that as an example since I know where the spot is supposed to be. I should have someone else try to find that spot using my phone.)

 

As to the cache linked to above, that looks like a relatively open spot and (I assume) a rather typical and easy hide, and if experienced Geocachers are saying the coordinates are off, then I personally would think it could use some checking. Of course, one big thing is that I don't know what kind of GPS was used to hide the cache. Some older GPS units may not be as accurate as newer ones. And I know that even newer non-WAAS GPS units can have accuracy issues at times due to stuff in the ionosphere. (Which is one thing that WAAS is designed to fix.)

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

the system is flawed +/- 30 feet if we understand correctly. Meaning if today we are off 30 feet due west and you are off 30 feet due East you will be 60 feet from our hide.

 

For one thing, from your statement above... it seems you are referring to the EPE ((Estimated Position Error). It DOES NOT mean that you ARE 30' off, only that you COULD be. Each unit is different, even among "identical" make/models at any given time. A lot of variables enter the equation. The fact that you may read such a number on the face of you GPSr really has no bearing on whether you are that far out of position or not (you could actually be further out!).

 

Coords being "off", is almost always the case anyway as any number of GPSr units give different readings at the same place and time -- usually just a miniscule difference, but not always.

[Andronicus]

On a similar note, I recently received a log

 

Like others, I searched my GZ for a while before moving over to where it was.

Dropped off a coin.

 

Thanks

with corrected coordinates. The "suggested update" is 6m (22 feet) away from my coordinates. Not to mention, I just went through all the logs, and only one (of over 50) may have implied poor coordinates, while several suggested good coordinates. Isn't 6m considered within spec anyway (especialy because there is only one place within 50m to hide a cache)? Most GPS accuracy is ±3m, add the error for the hiders and the finders, and you get 6m. I know that that is the extream case, but not that unusual.

 

I am planning to go double check my coordinates (again, I have checked them a couple of times last year while doing maintanence (cache got eaten by a lawn mower)). Kind of makes me wonder if I am crazy...

 

But then, I found a cache that was off by 9m. Almost everyone complained about bad coordinates. If the hider didn't have a WAAS enabled GPSr, 9m would be quite resonable wouldn't it? So maybe people just expect perfect coordinates (when compared to how thier GPSr is reporting when they arrive at GZ).

[+CanadianRockies]

The "suggested update" is 6m (22 feet) away from my coordinates.

I normally won't mention alternative coordinates in my logs unless my GZ is at least 10 metres away from the posted coordinates. Even then, I might omit them if my signal accuracy isn't behaving or if there are few potential hiding places.

 

On the other hand, I've occasionally provided alternative coordinates when I'm only 8-9 metres away, when my signal is very good and the area appears to be environmentally sensitive. This weekend, I also suggested an update for coordinates that put the cache 9 metres up a steep slope, in hopes that it might save a few searchers some unnecessary climbing.

[+kunarion]

please leave those words out of the log.

Ask me again why people leave blank logs.

Edited September 8, 2011 by kunarion

[+PokerLuck]

Make sure that WAAS hasn't been turned off on your GPSr. If you have a Garmin unit, note that when you update the software, it turns off WAAS, so you have to turn it back on. I found out the hard way after I placed 25 caches one day and discovered that WAAS was off, so I had to go back and remeasure the coordinates. They weren't off by much, but enough to have caused a problem for finders.

[+thebruce0]

it seems you are referring to the EPE ((Estimated Position Error). It DOES NOT mean that you ARE 30' off, only that you COULD be. Each unit is different, even among "identical" make/models at any given time. A lot of variables enter the equation. The fact that you may read such a number on the face of you GPSr really has no bearing on whether you are that far out of position or not (you could actually be further out!).

 

Coords being "off", is almost always the case anyway as any number of GPSr units give different readings at the same place and time -- usually just a miniscule difference, but not always.

Exactly.

As an exclusively iPhone geocacher (with a preference for Geosphere over the official app), I rarely use the compass and distance reading, especially within city bounds. I've found that sat imagery is almost always perfectly accurate in those settings (and I've traveled all around North America).

 

When it comes to accuracy, practically speaking, the reading could easily be centered correctly on the cache location, with the accuracy wavering from +/-17m to a couple hundred. But the estimated position is still accurate. Accuracy does not mean that you are that far away, it's just a rating of the device's certainty that the coordinates in question are accurate. One thing I like about using sat imagery is that you can visually average... for instance, on the occasion that my location might constantly update and circle a spot without me moving, there's a good chance the center of that area is GZ. That typically requires some really heavy tree cover though.

 

From my experience, my iPhone 3GS has provided me sufficiently accurate coordinates as long as I've been caching (including in a desert, thick forests, rural settings and built up urban regions). I can understand the concern over people who place caching using smartphones to read coordinates, but really the only difference between placing with a smartphone and placing with a GSPr (since everyone can be hasty, misread, or be affected by adverse environmental conditions) is that the smartphone geocacher needs to do a little more work, or spend a little more time, or understand their tools a little better. No one's immune to bad coordinates

 

Anyway, point being, I agree with above comments - take 'coordinates are off' with a grain of salt. Take it in context with the rest of the logs on the cache. All you can do is your best to ensure the listed coordinates are accurate, whether returning a few times, averaging for a long time, or consolidating others' readings as well. If it continues to be an issue in your cache, add to the description that your coordinates have been verified repeatedly (presuming they have), and recognize that it's likely GPS readings may be less accurate in general in that particular area. If that's the case, I'd tend to provide a little more in the hint to compensate.

[+dakboy]

If "hundreds" of people are telling you that your coords are wrong, those people are most likely correct. Have you gone back and re-checked them yourself? With a decent GPS, you should[/b] be able to do better than 30' EPE unless it's difficult conditions (heavy canopy, near a large wall, etc.).

 

These people are doing other cachers - and you a favor by posting in their logs that the coords are "a bit off." That should be a clear signal to you that you need to check your work.

[+Ecylram]

Coords are off...

 

With accurate coordinates you'll almost never see "Coords are off" messages. By "Almost Never" I mean no such messages or only one in every few hundred logs.

 

For comparison, here are real world examples:

1. Coordinates are ~50 feet off for an LPC. About one in 10 logs point this out.

 

2. Coordinates are ~250 feet off for FC hidden under a statue. About 90% of the find logs mentioned the coordinates were off.

 

3. Coordinates are -30 feet off for a FC in a tree and point to a different tree. About one in 15 logs mentioned this easy hide was either missing (it wasn't) or had the wrong coordinates.

 

4. Had a nearby cache placed by a cacher notorious for having bad coordinates, but the coordinates were spot on. I made the find and logged it. A couple of weeks later, the CO emailed me to find out where it was located. Apparently someone had moved the cache to the correct coordinates and didn't tell the CO. Distance was about 35-40 feet.

 

There are two cachers in our area which are known to have bad coordinates. One uses a Nuvi to place the hides. The other..I have no idea why as they use a Garmin. Most are spot on, but about 1/3 are 20-35 feet off.

 

As for using Satellite images...In my area, the Google imagery is dead on accurate for 95+% of the metro area and they may have cleaned up the other little bit in the last year. HOWEVER...I've been to a spot in a VERY rural area and the imagery was 50-100 feet off. So...just be aware. Using imagery isn't a perfect solution, but it's great for catching transposed numbers in coordinates. :-) I figure if I've got a good reading AND it matches the imagery I'm in good shape. If the Imagery shows something different I go back and remeasure with the GPSr.

[+JL_HSTRE]

My personal policy with coords being off (influenced by a mix of personal experience and past comments by others on these forums):

 

If the coords show me as off by less than 20 ft, I usually wont mention it unless the coords should be pretty spot on (i.e. little/no tree/building/powerline intereference).

 

If the coords are 20-30 ft off, I will usually leave a comment about them being off such as "GPS pointed me deeper into the bushes" or "GPS pointed me toward the road". I may leave what my GZ coordinates depending on the situation.

 

30+ ft off I will always leave my GZ coords.

 

In any case, if there are factors that might have caused GPS signal issues (tree cover, buildings, powerlines, bad weather) I will also note that in my log ("...but it may have just been the powerlines overhead").

 

Noting coords that are off or may be off is both an heads up to the CO to double check the post coords if several people have the problem. Even if the issue is uncommon or device-specific to that area, it serves as a tip to other searches they may need to expand their search radius.

 

Commenting on the coords should be done politely; you're trying to be helpful to the CO and other searchers. Don't take possible coordinates issues as some personal slight, whether you're reporting them or recieving them on your cache. Sometimes it is placement via old iPhones or using Google Maps without a GPS (usually by someone who simply doesn't know better), but most often it is a minor error that can be easily fixed.

 

There are two cachers in our area which are known to have bad coordinates. One uses a Nuvi to place the hides. The other..I have no idea why as they use a Garmin. Most are spot on, but about 1/3 are 20-35 feet off.

 

Had the latter issue with a local cacher: coords usually (but not always) off by 30 feet or so despite using a Garmin. Another cacher with the same GPSr educated this CO about better use of their GPSr and the problem was solved. Good ol' operator error...

Edited September 9, 2011 by Joshism

[+power69]

I feel your pain. I know what you mean.

15 ft. is the norm.

We have some new cachers here who placed dozens of hides in the last couple of weeks, almost all with bad coords (some over 100 ft). But these cachers are logging DNFs on so many other caches, telling the owner that "your coords are off because our gps took us 60 ft. into the woods."

They just don't get that it's THEM!!!!

 

I really understand what you are saying. If the coords are off just a little bit, do they really need to say it in the log? "A little bit" is expected! I agree that it's frustrating to get those comments in a log.

 

Take the comments with a grain of salt, and if most cachers are saying the same thing, maybe go out and adjust the coords? I have occasionally done that when a cache is new, even thought I take over 100 averages before marking the spot.

"Coords brought me to a blue spruce tree, coords must be bad"

[+baloo&bd]

Assuming the coords are really off, there ar a couple things you can do.

 

1. GPSr's have become very cheap, especially used. Maybe it is time for a change.

 

2. Acknowledge the issue on the page and ask for corrected coords to be posted.

 

3. Get a friend with another GPS they can loan you so you can check the coords.

 

4. Contrary to a previous comment, most newer smartphones are as accurate, if not more so, then our dedicated GPSr's, especially those thaty have multiple methods for acquiring positions. If you have a true smartphone, not an older model or any of the iphone models, but something like one of the newer Droids or Blackberry models you can use it to check the coords.

 

Google maps are good for checking things, but that is only relative. I would not depend on them for the actual coords useed on the online listing.

[+dakboy]

The coords.

 

4. Contrary to a previous comment, most newer smartphones are as accurate, if not more so, then our dedicated GPSr's, especially those thaty have multiple methods for acquiring positions. If you have a true smartphone, not an older model or any of the iphone models, but something like one of the newer Droids or Blackberry models you can use it to check the coords.

Sometimes

 

Just within the last few weeks, Verizon customers in several parts of the country reported that their smartphones were completely confused, showing their locations as hundreds of miles from where they were truly located.

 

And then it vanished after a couple days, and everything was seemingly normal again.

 

I've put my PN-40 & my Droid X head to head and I still trust the PN-40 over the Droid.

[+ncfinn]

If "lots" of people say it, or it is said by experienced (> 1000 finds) cachers, then the co-ords probably are off "a bit".

I don't think experienced people bother mentioning a discrepancy of less than thirty feet.

 

I normally say something like: "For me on this day with my GPSr the co-ords were off by 80 feet".

If i have some reason to think that i am right (and the CO is wrong), i will provide my readings.

[+Waazdag]

Judging from the well stomped geotrail ending at GZ, if my GPS brings me to the exact same spot as every other searcher, but the cache is 60 feet away I will note that the coords are in fact off... and suggest better ones... unless it is some G.D.F'ing nano in a pine tree 60 feet away, in which case, I would have logged a DNF unless someone more persistent had posted accurate coordinates...