Moving Logs to a Different Cache

[+targetbagger]

While caching on a so called power trail I noticed some cachers purposely moving caches with logs to different locations for time saving purposes. Although I do not know if there is an official term for this so I will call it "Log Shifting". How it works is a group of cachers working together from a vehicle remove a cache container with its log and replaces it with another container having a new log displaying only their name. The original cache container is then rushed back to the travel vehicle, opened, log removed and stamped with the cachers names. The cache container removed from the first location then replaces the next cache found on the power trail series. As each cache is retrieved by the runner (cache retriever) it is handed to the stamper inside the vehicle who opens, unrolls, stamps, reinserts log and hands it back to the runner who swaps it at the next cache location. This process is then repeated over and over.

When the "Log Shifters" were asked why they did it they responded to save time. The Log Shifters defended their actions by saying that there are different ways to play the game (caching).

 

I am not a procedural rule expert but can someone please help me understand.

 

1. Is is OK to remove a cache or its log from one location and move it to another location? If so can someone please share where this is documented?

2. Can the cache owner nulify credit to those cachers who logged the find but their log entry dosen't exist at that cache location anymore because of log shifting?

3. For non-power trail caches is it OK to move and replace any cache or its log from one mountain top to another at the whim of anyone who wants to Log Shift?

4. Since this process (log shifting) generates an extra log without a home at the end of the shifting process what happens to the surplus log containing previous entries by other cachers?

[+Harry Dolphin]

I think there's a giant collection of moldy film canisters at the end of the Power Trail.

IMHO, it's cheating. You are supposed to return the cache container where you found it!

[+BlueDeuce]

I would say that anyone who owns/maintains a power trail wouldn't care what the finders do. I just stay the heck away from those caches.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

There are many opinions. Search the forums on "throw down".

[+tozainamboku]

While caching on a so called power trail I noticed some cachers purposely moving caches with logs to different locations for time saving purposes. Although I do not know if there is an official term for this so I will call it "Log Shifting". How it works is a group of cachers working together from a vehicle remove a cache container with its log and replaces it with another container having a new log displaying only their name. The original cache container is then rushed back to the travel vehicle, opened, log removed and stamped with the cachers names. The cache container removed from the first location then replaces the next cache found on the power trail series. As each cache is retrieved by the runner (cache retriever) it is handed to the stamper inside the vehicle who opens, unrolls, stamps, reinserts log and hands it back to the runner who swaps it at the next cache location. This process is then repeated over and over.

When the "Log Shifters" were asked why they did it they responded to save time. The Log Shifters defended their actions by saying that there are different ways to play the game (caching).

 

I am not a procedural rule expert but can someone please help me understand.

 

1. Is is OK to remove a cache or its log from one location and move it to another location? If so can someone please share where this is documented?

Generally you should replace the cache back where you found it after signing the log. However the cache owners of some power trails are not that concerned about individual caches. For them the experience is about the trail itself. And they realize that some cachers will attempt to find as many caches in as short of time as possible as their goal in doing the trail. If it is OK with the cache owner, shifting caches like this is allowed, though it may still not be acceptable to all geocachers.

 

2. Can the cache owner nulify credit to those cachers who logged the find but their log entry dosen't exist at that cache location anymore because of log shifting?

This is the key. Owners of power trails who allow shifting are not going to be checking logs to see if they are signed. So they are certainly not going delete someones online log because the names are in different caches then the ones they logged. If the cache owner does not allow shifting, but it gets done anyhow, I doubt very much they will punnish someone who did some caches and didn't shift. They will likely believe that you found what ever caches you logged online.

3. For non-power trail caches is it OK to move and replace any cache or its log from one mountain top to another at the whim of anyone who wants to Log Shift?

Stealing someone's cache and placing it some place else without the owners permissiong is a no no. However, cachers often help out with maintenance particularly on remote caches. If the log book is full and needs to be replace, you can leave a new log book. If there is no room you can take the old one but see if the cache owner wants it - don't shift it to another cache. If the cache container is in really bad shape you can replace it and CITO out the old container. Don't steal someone's ammo can and replace it with Gladware though.

4. Since this process (log shifting) generates an extra log without a home at the end of the shifting process what happens to the surplus log containing previous entries by other cachers?

Generally, it is thrown away. But I suppose you could go back to the start of the power trail and leave it there.

[+Mario McTavish]

Sounds like actions taken on the ET Series. I guess if you're after 1400+ caches in a day you need to cut out as much 'dead' time as possible. Taking 10 pre-signed caches with you and replacing the first 10 with yours, whilst the original 10 are signed by a 3rd/4th person in the vehicle (#1 driving, #2 doing the running) would save a fair few seconds per cache.

May not sound like much, but it soon adds up.

 

I guess if it was my series of hundreds and hundreds of identical micros it wouldn't bother me. It would only bother me if my small/regular caches were being replaced with micros.

[+Max and 99]

 

Generally you should replace the cache back where you found it after signing the log.

 

How about always!!

[+CanadianRockies]

Generally you should replace the cache back where you found it after signing the log.

How about always!!

Yesterday, we found two very exposed caches and one on the ground that obviously was intended to be hanging from a tree branch. We did not replace those three caches where we found them.

[AZcachemeister]

Mega Power trails cause cachers attempting to 'find' 4-5-600 caches in 24 hours to do stupid things.

 

ANY expedient that serves the goal of maximum finds is rationalized as acceptable.

[+dfx]

Toz has posted in a thread like this and the P word hasn't fallen yet, I'm impressed

[+niraD]

Although I do not know if there is an official term for this so I will call it "Log Shifting".

Other terms I've heard for this technique include "Log Shuffling" and "Three Cache Monte" and "Swap and Drop". Personally, I like the term "Three Cache Monte", but some of the folks in my area object to it because it's too pejorative.

 

1. Is is OK to remove a cache or its log from one location and move it to another location? If so can someone please share where this is documented?

Without the cache owner's permission, moving caches like that would be vandalism. With the cache owner's permission, it is merely a questionable "optimization" for a numbers run.

 

As for documentation, there isn't any that I've seen. There has been plenty of discussion in the forums though. Search for threads that discuss the terms mentioned above, or that discuss some of the big numbers run trails like the Trail of the Gods, the Route 66 trail, or the ET Highway trail (either the original one of the new one).

 

2. Can the cache owner nulify credit to those cachers who logged the find but their log entry dosen't exist at that cache location anymore because of log shifting?

It is possible that the CO could declare those logs to be bogus and delete them, but logs/caches go missing for other reasons too. Most cache owners aren't going to delete the online logs of a muggled cache because there is no log with signatures in it.

 

And as others have said, the owners of numbers run trails that promote this technique are unlikely to delete online logs anyway.

 

3. For non-power trail caches is it OK to move and replace any cache or its log from one mountain top to another at the whim of anyone who wants to Log Shift?

Absolutely not.

 

It isn't even acceptable on all numbers run trails. For example, it isn't acceptable on the Yer-Mo trail: GC2KRVZ.

 

4. Since this process (log shifting) generates an extra log without a home at the end of the shifting process what happens to the surplus log containing previous entries by other cachers?

Some of them end up being reused on other numbers run trails.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Find and log the first cache.

Go home.

 

Keep an eye on the series.

As each group go through, log the next cache in the series (after all your name IS in the log at that location!)

 

Slow, but eventually you will have the whole series under your belt, with very little physical effort!

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Find and log the first cache.

Go home.

 

Keep an eye on the series.

As each group go through, log the next cache in the series (after all your name IS in the log at that location!)

 

Slow, but eventually you will have the whole series under your belt, with very little physical effort!

 

I like, I like!

 

[jholly]

Find and log the first cache.

Go home.

 

Keep an eye on the series.

As each group go through, log the next cache in the series (after all your name IS in the log at that location!)

 

Slow, but eventually you will have the whole series under your belt, with very little physical effort!

A few minor problems. First, not everyone doing 0001 does 1500. You will fail somewhere along the way. Secondly, not everyone does the trail in order. Some do segments out of order. But this probably sorts out as folks replace the logs because they are full, certainly not because they are wet

[+vegaschick]

Not all cachers will agree with your set of morals, and they find a way to justify their way of geocaching, whether it's right or wrong. And no matter how you try to limit their ability to "cheat" they will always find a way around it. Heck, I know of a few cachers (one of them is/was a highly respected member of the Nevada geocaching community) that don't even bother to log their finds online but have admitted to me that they didn't search for the cache. And as I recall, you yourself have criticized me and a number of my friends because we stamped our names in the logbooks and didn't write the date in the logbook. You will drive yourself nuts worrying about all the other cachers and their approach to caching.

 

Where do you draw the line? Some people were replacing caches, some replaced the original log with some crappy little green paper. Some people were so lazy that they stamped the top of the cache container, some people went out and found 500 caches but logged all 1500 because it was a "team" effort.

 

What are the cache owners supposed to do in response to someone "piggy backing" caches? (Log Shifting would be the correct term if the cachers were removing only the log, but since they're moving the entire cache, that name doesn't work.) They can't delete the person's logs and they have no proof it's being done or who is doing it. There were some pretty high-profile names out there doing the very same thing. Whether it's right or wrong, no sense in worrying about something that you won't be able to change and as for the people

 

Moving caches from one mountain top to another on a whim? I think you're stretching it now. People that hit the mountain top caches are generally not "numbers runners" and aren't in the sport for competition.

 

No matter what, people will always find a way to get around the "rules," so you have to look at the bright side. AT LEAST the cachers that were piggy backing the caches actually WENT to ground zero and located the cache! All you can do is take comfort in knowing that your numbers are honest and not pumped up.

 

And for the record, it isn't a "so called power trail," it IS a power trail and I would go so far as to say it's a Mega Power Trail. I wasn't out there for the numbers, I was out there to hang out with my friends, meet cachers that I've only known through e-mail and make new friends.

[+DanOCan]

Mega Power trails cause cachers attempting to 'find' 4-5-600 caches in 24 hours to do stupid things.

 

ANY expedient that serves the goal of maximum finds is rationalized as acceptable.

 

When I hear of some of the things people do when on these trails I often wonder why they even bother to stop and grab the caches to do the log shifting. They may as well just drive the whole thing and count them all as Finds.

[+Chief301]

Generally, it is thrown away. But I suppose you could go back to the start of the power trail and leave it there.

 

 

Or you could save it as the first throw down container for your next power trail....

 

Moving caches from one mountain top to another on a whim? I think you're stretching it now. People that hit the mountain top caches are generally not "numbers runners" and aren't in the sport for competition.

 

 

I think the OP was making the point that if it isn't acceptable to move somebody's cache from one mountain top to another, then it shouldn't be OK to move it 528 ft. from its original location either.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Chief301

[+targetbagger]

Thank you all for an incredible variety of input which gives me and perhaps others a broader scope on this topic. It seems this is a very controversial issue and for some triggers deep rooted emotions. For the record I specifically did not mention dates, times, specific locations, events, or names. I found it interesting that for asking generic questions I received some ad hominem attacks. But I suppose that is to be expected in a public forum. I very much enjoy geocaching and I'm always interested in learning about different perspectives.

 

Thanks Again

Targetbagger

[AZcachemeister]

Find and log the first cache.

Go home.

 

Keep an eye on the series.

As each group go through, log the next cache in the series (after all your name IS in the log at that location!)

 

Slow, but eventually you will have the whole series under your belt, with very little physical effort!

 

I like, I like!

 

 

I am definitely on-board with this!

[+Baad Daata]

I find that power trails encourage baad behaviour. Let's blame Brady.

[Clan Riffster]

1. Is is OK to remove a cache or its log from one location and move it to another location?

The owners of many power trails openly acknowledge that they don't care about cache maintenance. They encourage you to do whatever you want out there. Groundspeak has given them their blessing, regardless of the fact that they are flaunting the fact that they will not do the maintenance they agreed to perform when they created the cache(s).

2. Can the cache owner nulify credit to those cachers who logged the find but their log entry dosen't exist at that cache location anymore because of log shifting?

Again, the owners typically don't care about log etiquete and/or maintenance.

3. For non-power trail caches is it OK to move and replace any cache or its log from one mountain top to another at the whim of anyone who wants to Log Shift?

I wouldn't think it would be OK at any cache, but apparently Groundspeak thinks otherwise.

4. Since this process (log shifting) generates an extra log without a home at the end of the shifting process what happens to the surplus log containing previous entries by other cachers?

CITO.

[+Team Geo-Rangers]

Find and log the first cache.

Go home.

 

Keep an eye on the series.

As each group go through, log the next cache in the series (after all your name IS in the log at that location!)

 

Slow, but eventually you will have the whole series under your belt, with very little physical effort!

A few minor problems. First, not everyone doing 0001 does 1500. You will fail somewhere along the way. Secondly, not everyone does the trail in order. Some do segments out of order. But this probably sorts out as folks replace the logs because they are full, certainly not because they are wet

 

Interesting thread with lots of opinions on what is and isn't acceptable. The Route 66 cache owner reassured me that "log rolling" was completely acceptable and even provided replacement logs in caches for when we did it. When Peas & I did the ET Highway last year, we marked every log and left the cache where found it, even replacing them better than found when not in their lair. We tried log rolling on Route 66 and finished it very fast. We followed all the rules posted by Gus and Clay regarding this new series to find 1564 in a single calendar day - 4 Sept. Four cachers, one vehicle, two inspector ink stamps suitable for micro logs for the main trail. We even found several ammo cans that day. If power caching is not for you, I totally respect your opinion and right to ignore those caches. It's just another variety to the game, an endurance challenge, and it will take it's physical toll. The fact that this game continues to evolve and go in different directions is what has kept my family active in it since 2003. Hey, it's all good ... when you let it be.

[+dfx]

The fact that this game continues to evolve and go in different directions is what has kept my family active in it since 2003.

 

Funny how everybody that tries to incorporate controversial aspects into the game wants to argue it with "evolution", completely ignoring the fact that once things "evolve" (or mutate), they become different things. So yeah, you can "evolve" geocaching by changing it around in whatever way you wish, but then it's not geocaching any more.

Edited September 9, 2011 by dfx

[The_Hypnotoad]

I was thinking the other day that I want to start "playing my own way" and hide every cache I find 40 feet from where I found it, as long as the cache owner doesn't mind(or catches me doing it). Everyone plays differently, and that's how I want to play, so you can't argue it. I think that this will "evolve" the game.

[+jellis]

Not all cachers will agree with your set of morals, and they find a way to justify their way of geocaching, whether it's right or wrong. And no matter how you try to limit their ability to "cheat" they will always find a way around it. Heck, I know of a few cachers (one of them is/was a highly respected member of the Nevada geocaching community) that don't even bother to log their finds online but have admitted to me that they didn't search for the cache. And as I recall, you yourself have criticized me and a number of my friends because we stamped our names in the logbooks and didn't write the date in the logbook. You will drive yourself nuts worrying about all the other cachers and their approach to caching.

 

Where do you draw the line? Some people were replacing caches, some replaced the original log with some crappy little green paper. Some people were so lazy that they stamped the top of the cache container, some people went out and found 500 caches but logged all 1500 because it was a "team" effort.

 

What are the cache owners supposed to do in response to someone "piggy backing" caches? (Log Shifting would be the correct term if the cachers were removing only the log, but since they're moving the entire cache, that name doesn't work.) They can't delete the person's logs and they have no proof it's being done or who is doing it. There were some pretty high-profile names out there doing the very same thing. Whether it's right or wrong, no sense in worrying about something that you won't be able to change and as for the people

 

Moving caches from one mountain top to another on a whim? I think you're stretching it now. People that hit the mountain top caches are generally not "numbers runners" and aren't in the sport for competition.

 

No matter what, people will always find a way to get around the "rules," so you have to look at the bright side. AT LEAST the cachers that were piggy backing the caches actually WENT to ground zero and located the cache! All you can do is take comfort in knowing that your numbers are honest and not pumped up.

 

And for the record, it isn't a "so called power trail," it IS a power trail and I would go so far as to say it's a Mega Power Trail. I wasn't out there for the numbers, I was out there to hang out with my friends, meet cachers that I've only known through e-mail and make new friends.

Totally agree, also in different areas they do something similar but don't consider it "cheating"

I am not crazy about Cache Machines, Power Trails or logging an event in as many times as there is temporary caches placed at the event.

Though I did do one Cache Machine, and we left early to go on a hike instead.

Did the ET Highway and lost 5lbs from sprinting back and forth between the cache and the vehicle.

(oh the trail has 1500 not 1400 not counting the new spaceship)

Though I liked seeing I passed a lot of people on the leaderboard, I still just rather go for a nice hike in the woods with friends like we did at Monte Cristo. That to me is more of an adventure then doing the same type of cache 1500 times. But I did enjoy seeing the wild horses, coyote and Pronghorn. Oh and the piles of rock did serve another purpose. Almost everyone of them sheltered a baby lizard and one had a baby horned toad.

We just have to remember, there are no winners or losers to geocaching. It's just a game and we are here to just have fun.

[+lamoracke]

yeah, I think that hike was better than all those containers in the juniper bushes we missed out on jellis, even if we did have to hurdle some snow in the process.