Is it normal for the FTF to take 70% of the SWAG?

[+SirDonB]

I must say, I am slightly disappointed with the FTF here. AS it was stated prior, they were and still are in a unique position, they were the FTF and are the only one that can answer the unanswered questions that have been presented. Aside from the FTF Prize (bino's) taken was the cache found intact and left intact? Was the cache locked and the lock wheel spun?

[+Chokecherry]

I think we're all wondering how you fit 2 beach towels plus all that stuff in the cache, must have been a big cache?!?

 

the beach towels were those ones that are compressed down to a small package (about the size of a chewing tobacco can, only half as tall)

 

It's probably nowhere near the size of a traditional beach towel like you are probably thinking

 

tho, I call any towel that has a picture on it a "beach towell"

 

There was a scooby doo and spiderman one in there

 

sorta like this:

 

Thought is impressive when those little squished wash clothes get moist in a cache and puff right up to their natural size... would be interesting to see that with a beach towel in a cache.

[+GeoGeeBee]

I must say, I am slightly disappointed with the FTF here. AS it was stated prior, they were and still are in a unique position, they were the FTF and are the only one that can answer the unanswered questions that have been presented. Aside from the FTF Prize (bino's) taken was the cache found intact and left intact? Was the cache locked and the lock wheel spun?

 

If I were the FTF, I would be offended at being accused. I certainly wouldn't be in the mood to participate in this online inquest.

[knowschad]

Ok, finally off work... now I will post a real response

 

Scrabblehounds, The binoculars are my FTF Prize, I do not expect, nor do I want them back. I also assumed that FTF Prizes are not traded for, and I knew that going in. I thought they would be a nice FTF Gift to find and you were very appreciative of them in your log post, that was great!

 

I never ever said your name or handle on the forum, granted it could be found out with some investigation, I didn't do it.

 

No, i was not aware of the coin, i only opened the fist few pages of the log to see how many it had. Thanks for that.

 

My concern and reason for this post was the sheer amount of missing items had shocked me when i looked back in my box less than 24 hours after placing it.

 

Off the top of my head, the following items are missing from the original cache stash:

 

2 Aluminum LED flashlights, a Deck of Cards, a Bag of Marbles, Some keychains, a "barrel of slime", several balls, 2 beach towels and several other pieces. (lots more than the 3 items that are currently in the box that were not part of the original stash)

 

If you DID NOT take them, I appologize, publically, in the same thread i have basically accused you in

 

(also note that later after i calmed down i did post that i could be wrong and that it may very well not be you)

 

If it was you, so be it, i'm over it already... I'm already on to making a new container for my next hide.

 

I was angry I said what i said, and that was it...

 

Thanks

 

z0mbieCache

 

Nice post, z0mbieCache. Glad to see that you have calmed down, too.

 

2 Aluminum LED flashlights, a Deck of Cards, a Bag of Marbles, Some keychains, a "barrel of slime", several balls, 2 beach towels and several other pieces. (lots more than the 3 items that are currently in the box that were not part of the original stash)

 

Holy COW!! All I can say is that I cannot imagine a geocacher, new or old, that would take all that stuff. You were muggled. I don't know how, but I just cannot believe that it would have been a geocacher. Sorry that you lost so much thoughtful and expensive swag, though. I can understand how that hurt!

[4wheelin_fool]

It may have been a cacher that did it, and unlikely to be the first finder since they signed in. Perhaps it was someone who was upset that the FtF didn't log online quick enough and thought that they should have been entitled to it, so they clean out the swag. Or it was someone who was waiting for the swag since he previously advertised it here in the forums. You never know in these cases. The best way to keep swag intact is to place the cache several miles deep in the woods, reachable only by foot or donkey, as most thieves are lazy.

[+pnpure]

First, let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not accusing the FTF of anything. I'm betting that he had nothing to do with the swag disappearing.

 

There have been a few requests for the FTF to make a public statement about the state of the cache when he left it, and to publicly acknowledge what swag he took and what he left. There's a major problem* with this. If the FTF was the sort of person to take the majority of the swag, he certainly wouldn't be the sort to publicly acknowledge this. If he came here and denied doing this, then very likely several people would accuse him of lying. The rational being that only a liar would deny it, and he should just own up to it. The swag is gone, his is the only name on the log, therefore there exists no other possiblity than that he took it.

 

He's been publicly accused (and in some cases, already found guilty,) and he has no reasonable way to clear his name. By not denying it, he has convinced some people that he's guilty. If he were to deny it, most likely the same people would not only continue to declare him guilty, but a liar as well. He can't win.

 

Now, let's say that whoever took the swag were to return it (as has also been called for in this thread.) Again, the FTF is going to be accused because he's been publicly guilted into returning it. Any anonymous person who originally took the the stuff wouldn't return it because they got away with it, ergo, it would just have to be the FTF.

 

The FTF came here and said his piece. His tone was quite civil, for which I commend him. He was obviously offended by the whole thing, and is now planning to return the "FTF prize", (presumably because he wants nothing further to do with the whole sordid mess,) but he didn't accuse anyone of anything, didn't call names, anything like that.

 

What's the poor guy to do? He's been accused, and in our society, that is often all it takes to sully someone's good name, guilty or not.

 

(*It was a real struggle not to make this a "magor problem" )

 

edit to correct grammatical error caught immediately after posting. GRRRR!

Edited September 2, 2011 by pnpure

[knowschad]

What's the poor guy to do? He's been accused, and in our society, that is often all it takes to sully someone's good name, guilty or not.

I'm surprised that you say this. Aside from the OP, who has since cooled down and backed off on any accusations, I see almost everybody that has posted here supporting the FTF cacher. A few have cautiously said that it *could* be, and pointed out why, but I don't see any witch trial going on here, at least not by those actually posting to the thread.

[+pnpure]

What's the poor guy to do? He's been accused, and in our society, that is often all it takes to sully someone's good name, guilty or not.

I'm surprised that you say this. Aside from the OP, who has since cooled down and backed off on any accusations, I see almost everybody that has posted here supporting the FTF cacher. A few have cautiously said that it *could* be, and pointed out why, but I don't see any witch trial going on here, at least not by those actually posting to the thread.

Perhaps it's just my interpretation of the responses. I agree that the majority of the responses have been supportive of the FTF. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut and remained in lurk-mode.

[+GeoBain]

I must say, I am slightly disappointed with the FTF here. AS it was stated prior, they were and still are in a unique position, they were the FTF and are the only one that can answer the unanswered questions that have been presented. Aside from the FTF Prize (bino's) taken was the cache found intact and left intact? Was the cache locked and the lock wheel spun?

 

I'm not surprised. Scrabblehounds only has 19 posts in the forums and hasn't posted in over a year until now. Sounded to me like he was offended by the accusations and decided to return the binoculars because he felt that was part of what he was being accused of. I'm not sure he even read past the OP.

 

He's probably the smartest of us all by staying out of the forums and just geocaching.

 

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here you are innocent until proven guilty. He shouldn't need to post a response at all.

[knowschad]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here you are innocent until proven guilty. He shouldn't need to post a response at all.

I've always wanted to say this... now's my chance. I don't think that means what you think it means.

 

 

 

(actually, that wasn't as much fun to say as I thought it would be)

Edited September 2, 2011 by knowschad

[+GeoBain]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here you are innocent until proven guilty. He shouldn't need to post a response at all.

I've always wanted to say this... now's my chance. I don't think that means what you think it means.

 

 

 

(actually, that wasn't as much fun to say as I thought it would be)

 

Ok, you got me. In the United States legal system you are innocent until proven guilty. Of course in here you are guilty as soon as the accusation is made.

[+pnpure]

Of course in here you are guilty as soon as the accusation is made.

 

That was precisely my point. It's not just here, but society at large. It seems (to me at least) that once the accusation is made, not only are you guilty, no amount of proof or exoneration will ever completely clear your name. I've seen it many times. Even after it becomes accepted that the accusation was false or erroneous, that same accusation colors peoples' attitudes toward the accused for a very long time. I've known people that lost jobs and had terrible times finding new ones simply because someone, in a fit of pique, knowingly accused them of something they didn't do.

 

Edit to add that no, I'm not referring to myself as the accused here.

Edited September 2, 2011 by pnpure

[+hukilaulau]

it's one of those situations where you're angry and you say things you don't mean... everyone has done that

 

I already said i was sorry and that I believe i may have jumped the gun about 20 posts ago

 

so, my bad... think of me what you will

It's one of the bad things about new technology

When I first started this game I said some things out of frustration in the online logs. When someone called me on it I thought, "Geez, did I say that OUT LOUD?" Used to be I'd just THINK unkind things but be over it before anyone else knew.

[+Fianccetto]

Although this thread somehow illustrates why it is best not to accuse someone on the forums, this time it was not your typical scenario because of the combination lock, the chain, the booklets...and I can understand the OP posting what he did. It was heartfelt and the good thing is, the thread helped show how we shouldn't assume the last people signing the log are ones who have damaged or taken things.

 

Can also understand the FTF not stepping up to the stand to be cross examined here, it is their privilege not to, and good for them for posting here at all. It seems pretty clear they didn't take anything except the bins and they did leave a cool signature coin. Why should they put in a lot of time on the forums for this kind of questioning? It's meant to be a fun and educational game, and that seems to be what they're keeping it to. If they took away a bag full of stuff, I think they would have been protesting their innocence here or not showing at all. Also, people who steal toys don't tend to go to the trouble of making coins and giving them away, or going to events, or signing over 1000 logs. So no, the accusations don't stick, thanks to the good reasoning throughout this thread.

 

Good luck with this and future caches, ZombieCache! Happy caching. :-)

[z0mbieCache]

2 Aluminum LED flashlights, a Deck of Cards, a Bag of Marbles, Some keychains, a "barrel of slime", several balls, 2 beach towels and several other pieces. (lots more than the 3 items that are currently in the box that were not part of the original stash)

 

Holy COW!! All I can say is that I cannot imagine a geocacher, new or old, that would take all that stuff. You were muggled. I don't know how, but I just cannot believe that it would have been a geocacher. Sorry that you lost so much thoughtful and expensive swag, though. I can understand how that hurt!

 

I told you, there was A LOT of stuff removed from this box... and nice stuff inside too

 

I was hoping to make a memorable trading cache because of the amount and quality of nice stuff that was inside

 

When i placed it, you had to remove everything to even get the log book in or out, it was literally "jam-packed" to the top... now when you open it, you can see the bottom

 

Live and learn... Many do not follow the old-school "Honor System" anymore

 

Today it's all about what YOU can GET AND, in this case, get AWAY with!

 

EDIT: I noticed you said I was muggled, I still find it odd that they took the time to re-attach the chain and re-lock the box at all... it's like i was robbed by the world's nicest criminal

 

EDIT #2: Also, not everything was taken either... this was a very selective thief. They only took the nicer of the items and left behind the smaller goods

Edited September 2, 2011 by z0mbieCache

[+SirDonB]

It is sad that the old addage does not stand true anymore, nowadays, you are guilty untill proven innocent. I am willing to bet our forefathers are rolling over in their graves at what this nation and its people have become. With that said, I can see where Zombie stands and the "evidence" leading to his conclusion. I can also see the FTF's fustration and why he would want to return the FTF prize.

 

Zombie reasons that it was the FTF that did it because, only one book was missing, the cache is locked with a combo lock and chained to a solid point, and the only signature in the book was from the FTF.

 

The FTF is upset because they are being accused via "reasonable doubt" and the ftf prize would be a constant reminder of that blemish, so they want to return the prize.

 

Let me point this out, 4 of my finds, I did not sign the log because I had forgotten my pen and it was a spontanious cache with the kids to introuce them to geocaching. now I am sure that there are people out there geocahcing that go with their kids and let their kids take items and not trade fairly. Then there are those with kids that do. There are also those that will put stuff in a cache they find and take nothing. The combinations are endless to what the person will do from cache to cache. On one of my finds, I had the kids with me agian, and was ill prepared to find a micro cache with some swag in it, so since the kids wanted to take something out, I told them we could only take one thing and to pick as a group, then since I had my 1st aid kit, we left some band-aids behind. A couple of bandaids for a silly band, was it a fair trade, MAYBE. But at least I left something and got to teach them a rule of geocaching.

 

Now going back to zombie, though he did not directly accuse the FTF of cleaning him out in the actual post, the title of this thread certinly does. The title suggests that zombie's mind was already made up and that the FTF was guilty of the act based off of reasonable doubt. It is good that he cooled his jets later and appologized, but at that point it was too late, the damage had already been done.

 

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

 

There are lessons to be taken from all of this...

 

What you take from this is up to you as we will all walk away with different things that we learned, but my list is:

 

• Cool down before you click the post button.
  
• Once you click the post button, the damage is done.
  
• Make sure you have all the facts before making an accusation, and leave reasonable doubt out if it
  
• reasonable doubt leads to assumptions and assumptions are the mother of all !@#$ ups
  
• when I hide a loaded cache, buy a game trap camera and aim it on the cache so I can see if anyone gets greedy
  
• when I hide a cache, dont load it up with tons of good swag
  
• when I hide a cache, put a couple of good swag in it, then restock a few good things during maintance
  

 

I am sure I have missed something, but take what you will from it. We are all human and thus we live, we learn. It is the way of life.

[z0mbieCache]

Yeah, believe me... if i could go back and edit the title, I would have

 

but you can only edit posts for a certain amount of limited time after it is entered

 

[knowschad]

2 Aluminum LED flashlights, a Deck of Cards, a Bag of Marbles, Some keychains, a "barrel of slime", several balls, 2 beach towels and several other pieces. (lots more than the 3 items that are currently in the box that were not part of the original stash)

 

Holy COW!! All I can say is that I cannot imagine a geocacher, new or old, that would take all that stuff. You were muggled. I don't know how, but I just cannot believe that it would have been a geocacher. Sorry that you lost so much thoughtful and expensive swag, though. I can understand how that hurt!

 

I told you, there was A LOT of stuff removed from this box... and nice stuff inside too

 

I was hoping to make a memorable trading cache because of the amount and quality of nice stuff that was inside

 

When i placed it, you had to remove everything to even get the log book in or out, it was literally "jam-packed" to the top... now when you open it, you can see the bottom

 

Live and learn... Many do not follow the old-school "Honor System" anymore

 

Today it's all about what YOU can GET AND, in this case, get AWAY with!

 

EDIT: I noticed you said I was muggled, I still find it odd that they took the time to re-attach the chain and re-lock the box at all... it's like i was robbed by the world's nicest criminal

 

EDIT #2: Also, not everything was taken either... this was a very selective thief. They only took the nicer of the items and left behind the smaller goods

Well, your experience of having so much taken all at once is something that I have never heard of, but all of us here have experienced swag degradation.

 

I have an 8 gallon storage container out that originally was packed with swag, including one of those big walking "robots", picture puzzles, and similar stuff. Now there isn't much more than a few stones and marbles, and golf balls rolling around the bottom. I guess you could look at it this way: at first, it wasn't easy to trade equal or up. Few people had anything good enough with them (and for whatever reason weren't able to trade nothing), but now its easy for anybody to find something equal or better.

[knowschad]

It is sad that the old addage does not stand true anymore, nowadays, you are guilty untill proven innocent.

That is, and always has been, true only in the legal sense, and even then, only in criminal law (I think I'm right on that last bit). The proper way of putting it is, "the burden of proof is on the accuser", which means the prosecuting attorney.

[+SirDonB]

In referance to my prievious post...

 

If I were to happen upon this cache, I know at least, I would put the log back as it had no further use to me beyond this cache. Perhaps your FTF did this as well and the one who took the log is also the one who took the swag hoping that you would restock with nice stuff again and wanted to skip to the end and have the cheat sheet already.

[z0mbieCache]

In referance to my prievious post...

 

If I were to happen upon this cache, I know at least, I would put the log back as it had no further use to me beyond this cache. Perhaps your FTF did this as well and the one who took the log is also the one who took the swag hoping that you would restock with nice stuff again and wanted to skip to the end and have the cheat sheet already.

 

lolwhut?

 

the log is one of the few things that are actually left in there...

[+GeoBain]

In referance to my prievious post...

 

If I were to happen upon this cache, I know at least, I would put the log back as it had no further use to me beyond this cache. Perhaps your FTF did this as well and the one who took the log is also the one who took the swag hoping that you would restock with nice stuff again and wanted to skip to the end and have the cheat sheet already.

 

lolwhut?

 

the log is one of the few things that are actually left in there...

 

First clue: on step two of the multi cache, you must find a box containing a booklet with clues to get to the final. In this box were 10 booklets originally, only one was missing!

 

Bandit is talking about the clue booklet.

[+SirDonB]

In referance to my prievious post...

 

If I were to happen upon this cache, I know at least, I would put the log back as it had no further use to me beyond this cache. Perhaps your FTF did this as well and the one who took the log is also the one who took the swag hoping that you would restock with nice stuff again and wanted to skip to the end and have the cheat sheet already.

 

lolwhut?

 

the log is one of the few things that are actually left in there...

 

First clue: on step two of the multi cache, you must find a box containing a booklet with clues to get to the final. In this box were 10 booklets originally, only one was missing!

 

Bandit is talking about the clue booklet.

 

Thank you Geo Brain, I meant to say the clue booklet but could not remember what he called it so many posts back. I just remembered that there was another log of sorts as it was a multi and one of ten were missing.

[Luckless]

I would put a few nice items with a bunch of cheaper items (maybe some unopened Mctoys that I picked up from a yard sale for a quarter) in the cache when I put it out. Then when I do a maintenance stop after it has been visited a few times I might toss in a couple more. I would never fill a cache with all good items at once.

[knowschad]

Thank you Geo Brain

Well, there goes GeoBain's ego!!

[z0mbieCache]

Bandit is talking about the clue booklet.

 

Ahhh... Gotcha!

 

I would put a few nice items with a bunch of cheaper items (maybe some unopened Mctoys that I picked up from a yard sale for a quarter) in the cache when I put it out. Then when I do a maintenance stop after it has been visited a few times I might toss in a couple more. I would never fill a cache with all good items at once.

 

Probably what I'll be doing next time... live and learn!

[+Harry Dolphin]

Ok, you got me. In the United States legal system you are innocent until proven guilty. Of course in here you are guilty as soon as the accusation is made.

 

Under the British Legal system inherited by 49 states, that would be true. I've heard that this is not true in Louisiana, which inerited the French Legal System.

[+SirDonB]

And under the Texas legal system the Death Penalty still applies and you can be shot on site from what I understand.

[+GeoBain]

Thank you Geo Brain

Well, there goes GeoBain's ego!!

 

No problem. I already had a big head to begin with. In fact, I'm just a head. I'm all head. You could say I was at the head of my class.

[knowschad]

And under the Texas legal system the Death Penalty still applies and you can be shot on site from what I understand.

This site?

[+BlueDeuce]

Kinda upset here...

 

 

Honest question here - Will you continue to place a FTF prize?

[+The_Incredibles_]

I think we're all wondering how you fit 2 beach towels plus all that stuff in the cache, must have been a big cache?!?

 

the beach towels were those ones that are compressed down to a small package (about the size of a chewing tobacco can, only half as tall)

 

It's probably nowhere near the size of a traditional beach towel like you are probably thinking

 

tho, I call any towel that has a picture on it a "beach towell"

 

There was a scooby doo and spiderman one in there

 

sorta like this:

 

Ah, love those little towels. Nice to see someone put so much care into a cache, sorry for what happened.

[z0mbieCache]

Honest question here - Will you continue to place a FTF prize?

 

yes I will...

 

It wasn't the missing FTF Prize that was the problem... The FTF Prize going missing after the FTF found it was expected, and I expected no trade for it (i thought that was pretty common knowledge)

 

it was the other missing items that was the upsetting part

 

several items of real nice quality were removed and replaced by 2 packs of post-it notes and shampoo samples

 

There was literally over 30 things in this box for trade when it was placed... granted, not all were gems... some were bouncy balls and pencil top erasers (what i like to refer to as "smalls")

 

As it stands the last time i did a check on it, I can see the bottom of the box when I open it, and there's maybe 10-12 of the "smalls" left inside

 

short answer, yes I will most likely continue to leave FTF Prizes

[+Klatch]

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

Are you referring to this forum, or the United States legal system? If the latter, you have it totally backwards.

[+Fianccetto]

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

Are you referring to this forum, or the United States legal system? If the latter, you have it totally backwards.

That's a relief!

[knowschad]

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

Are you referring to this forum, or the United States legal system? If the latter, you have it totally backwards.

That's a relief!

 

Whew! Yeah, I was ready to just stay indoors all day.

[+SirDonB]

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

Are you referring to this forum, or the United States legal system? If the latter, you have it totally backwards.

 

I was referring to both, I lost custody of my kids twice because my ex-wife made accusations against me in a court of law with out proof. I had proof to show she was lying and they dismissed my evidence and took her for her word. I am just glad they finally wised up and took my evidence into account and I got them back yet again, and this time she has no hope of taking them from me, unless she can find another judge to lie to and take her side. But thankfully by then, the boys will be old enough that they will be able to say what they want and the court will listen

[z0mbieCache]

I was referring to both, I lost custody of my kids twice because my ex-wife made accusations against me in a court of law with out proof. I had proof to show she was lying and they dismissed my evidence and took her for her word. I am just glad they finally wised up and took my evidence into account and I got them back yet again, and this time she has no hope of taking them from me, unless she can find another judge to lie to and take her side. But thankfully by then, the boys will be old enough that they will be able to say what they want and the court will listen

 

I know how you feel man, I been dealing with the same crap for the last 9 years

 

I have full custody of my two sons now, after several years of crap made by lies!

 

They told that judge ANYTHING to try and make me the bad guy... including having to go to drug counseling, anger management, domestic abuse counseling... and none of that was proven (or true), it was just immediately assumed true!

 

At one point she even tried convincing the court that i was a satan worshipper!

 

Good luck with it... and don't let 'em bring you down, if you are persistent at it, it will go your way.

 

It's hard for the man to get custody, but It can be done!

Edited September 3, 2011 by z0mbieCache

[+popokiiti]

The FTF on the OP's multi was very complimentary in their log, which was a neat one. My gut feel is that they weren't the ones to clean out the cache...one knows where the blame will lie if something happens between your online log and the next - whether you are at fault or not.

$30 in cache swag plus binocs is very generous...I can understand why you're ticked off. Just be sure, 110% sure, that you don't accuse someone who is innocent. I wasn't there when the cache was "plundered" and neither was the OP, so neither of us know what really happened.

Just my 2 cents.......................

[+BStheTech]

 

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

 

 

I believe you have it completely backwards sir. `Reasonable Doubt` is the measure a Judge uses to NOT convict someone. If the defense can raise a reasonable doubt in the judges mind then the judge CANNOT convict. Are you thinking of probable cause?

[knowschad]

At one point she even tried convincing the court that i was a satan worshipper!

Did she bring your geocaching avatar in as evidence?

[+BlueDeuce]

Honest question here - Will you continue to place a FTF prize?

 

yes I will...

 

It wasn't the missing FTF Prize that was the problem... The FTF Prize going missing after the FTF found it was expected, and I expected no trade for it (i thought that was pretty common knowledge)

 

it was the other missing items that was the upsetting part

 

several items of real nice quality were removed and replaced by 2 packs of post-it notes and shampoo samples

 

There was literally over 30 things in this box for trade when it was placed... granted, not all were gems... some were bouncy balls and pencil top erasers (what i like to refer to as "smalls")

 

As it stands the last time i did a check on it, I can see the bottom of the box when I open it, and there's maybe 10-12 of the "smalls" left inside

 

short answer, yes I will most likely continue to leave FTF Prizes

 

Okay, Thank you.

[+BelKen]

 

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

 

 

I believe you have it completely backwards sir. `Reasonable Doubt` is the measure a Judge uses to NOT convict someone. If the defense can raise a reasonable doubt in the judges mind then the judge CANNOT convict. Are you thinking of probable cause?

That would all be true and make sense if there was a criminal case to answer. (Think OJ) This is not so in this case. So a Balance of Probabilities is enough if you wish to make a Reasonable Conclusion. So whilst you may throw other scenarios they must fit and outweigh the known events. So the OP I believe has made a reasonable conclusion on the known facts. The FTF's post did not dispute or change any of the known facts thus the reasonable conclusion can still stand.

[+SirDonB]

 

Reasonable doubt is a real PITA, it is all that is needed to convict someone, guilty or not. Reasonable doubt states that if the evidence points to you, then you are guilty no matter what proof you may have against it.

 

 

I believe you have it completely backwards sir. `Reasonable Doubt` is the measure a Judge uses to NOT convict someone. If the defense can raise a reasonable doubt in the judges mind then the judge CANNOT convict. Are you thinking of probable cause?

 

You very well may have it right. It has been many years since my Intro to Criminal Justice class in collage. My memory has been known to be faulty 200% of the time. SO with that I graciously bow to you and thank you for the correction. At least I was in the general right direction, wrong road.

 

Oh yea, adding one more to the lessons learned list...

 

If something ticks you off while playing the game, either hiding or seeking, before you go on here, sleep it off overnight, go out the next day, find a few more, then when you are calmed down, sit down and post your tread/reply after you have had some time to think clearly.

[z0mbieCache]

At one point she even tried convincing the court that i was a satan worshipper!

Did she bring your geocaching avatar in as evidence?

 

nope, they pointed at my devil tattoo...

 

I told them point blank, yes, i have a devil tattoo... i also have a tattoo of a head with three faces and three tongues, that doesn't mean i go around licking people!

 

lol

[+GeoBain]

At one point she even tried convincing the court that i was a satan worshipper!

Did she bring your geocaching avatar in as evidence?

 

nope, they pointed at my devil tattoo...

 

I told them point blank, yes, i have a devil tattoo... i also have a tattoo of a head with three faces and three tongues, that doesn't mean i go around licking people!

 

lol

,That's Knowschad's domain.

[+WarNinjas]

The warNinjas just did some room service on our popular travel bug motel. I was shocked to see there was noting in it but a bottle top and a signature thing. The log book and pen and the actual box was still there and I am grateful for that! So whatever swagg is missing no problem but I still did feel a little bad that it became that after all we had left in it to start. I noticed the logs were not as cool as when we started and I am guessing because it was empty. We filled it back up but where is the trade up or even or even trade at all I guess going?

We re stocked it and also checked another cache we had in the area and that one had gotten some cool stuff! I guess it is just the area you put it in. We will be checking this one more to make sure it has cool stuff in it. We might go add some travel bugs tomorrow to try and keep it cool. It is all good as long as they keep the box there. What else could we ask for I guess. I would be more disappointed if someone actually took the box.

-WarNinjas

[z0mbieCache]

I would be more disappointed if someone actually took the box.

-WarNinjas

 

At least you would know you got muggled and not robbed had they taken the whole box, versus picking thru everything and taking only the good stuff

 

It' a shame people can't even participate in a simple game anymore and stay honest when doing it

 

It's a simple concept after all

 

FIND

TRADE - (optional)

SIGN

HIDE

LEAVE

 

So, we have 4 basic steps of the "game" and some people can't even get that right... it's sad really

 

doesn't get much simpler...

Edited September 4, 2011 by z0mbieCache

[+EdrickV]

The warNinjas just did some room service on our popular travel bug motel. I was shocked to see there was noting in it but a bottle top and a signature thing. The log book and pen and the actual box was still there and I am grateful for that! So whatever swagg is missing no problem but I still did feel a little bad that it became that after all we had left in it to start. I noticed the logs were not as cool as when we started and I am guessing because it was empty. We filled it back up but where is the trade up or even or even trade at all I guess going?

We re stocked it and also checked another cache we had in the area and that one had gotten some cool stuff! I guess it is just the area you put it in. We will be checking this one more to make sure it has cool stuff in it. We might go add some travel bugs tomorrow to try and keep it cool. It is all good as long as they keep the box there. What else could we ask for I guess. I would be more disappointed if someone actually took the box.

-WarNinjas

 

Given it's location and how it seems to be hidden, I would think muggles may be at least partly responsible for depopulating the cache. (Can't say I've heard of a TB Hotel/Motel being hid in an area like that before.) All it takes is one kid to find it, and the swag may just vanish into their pockets. Did you put any papers in the cache that explain what Geocaching is and which mention the "trade up or even" guideline on swag?

[+Team_Searchgeo]

you know what... I take it all back

 

It doesn't matter anymore... know why?

 

 

CUZ I GOTZ THE SHAMPOO, BABY! YEAHHHH!!!!

Yea some people just don't get it. I have a cache that had some decent swag in it, nothing to nice but decent. After a while it ended up with a shower cap and soap from a local hotel and business cards from local businesses. All the other stuff was gone. This was an easy cache to get to so I guess the these people thought it was ok to do . Recently it was muggled but even the muggles would not take the shower cap!!!! So now only the ones I put way out in the woods get the good stuff all others get the cheap stuff and this one is possibly being reduced to a micro so that it does not get muggled again. I have not made a permanent decision on that yet. The worst part was the log book, I had really good statements made about the log book and now it's gone.

 

As far as what happened to you. I would say it was not the FTF only because he/she sounds like they have been around a while although that does not mean much either. Like us, we are not into numbers but quality. I have been caching over a year but am just now reaching a hundred. We are cachers that like to go for long hikes and not necessarily just run around and pick up P n'G's. We done a few PnG runs but only a couple times. Anyway sorry to hear about what happened but get used to it really. I have 24 hides and 4 right now disabled because they got muggled.