Blue Square Thing Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Blue Square Thing, Just because there is a community built around hacks and cheats does not make it right. I mean hacks, cheats, spoilers, look at the names themselves. All indicating wrong. I know that they are out there. But to me a person that actively seeks them out KNOWING what those sites are being labeled is a cheater plain and simple. I'd argue very strongly indeed that it's just another way of playing the game - blimey, a load of them are put out there by the game companies themselves - and that the names have simply arisen from the wider community looking for handy names for them really. I'd also argue that hacking isn't a bad thing at all - in the way in which I'd use it in relation to gaming, but that's another issue I suppose. It's just a different way of playing a game - if I chose to unlock all the songs on RockBand because I can't get past a particularly difficult track then is that cheating? I'm opening up the game, that's all. It's a legit way to approach the game imo - just as if I use a play testers code to jump few levels ahead and stop myself having to repeat the levels on a platform game that I know I can already complete but that will take me hours to do so. Seriously - just a different way of playing the game just as, I'm sure, I have a different way of playing this game. Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I've been involved in plenty of online communities relating to many hobbies, games, sports etc and never before have I come across such daft politics as in the geocaching community. Infact, that might have to be the topic of an upcoming video because it baffles me. It's-a-game! *Ok there is that one cache that someone will no doubt bring up, the owner is happy with this "spoiler" being live showthing the gc code - but I am not. When I'm next passing I'll video the container again so you trolls have less daft ammunition. Bunch of old bitter farts with nothing better in life to do I guess...... Francis, this is a Geocaching forum. We discuss Geocaching. Because you posted to this thread, does that mean you have nothing better in life to do? Don't think that's mean or anything, I know Frank Personally. Now for the bad news. When I googled Sven geocaching the first youtube vid that I came to was the one of the railway bridge. You said it was a submitted video. If it was submitted by the cache owner then there is no problem. HOWEVER: if it was submitted by a random geocacher and you chose to air it then that one is waaayyy in the wrong. It starts out with, "here we are at ground zero". Well, you KNOW what is in it. It shows plainly the area. Just about anyone that lives in that area would know exactly where it was. It shows the exact location of the cache, what the cache is, and even how to solve the cache. It shows how the cache works. It is obvious that the cache owner put a lot of thought and time into that cache. It is a great cache. But unless it was submitted by the cache owner or with the cache owners full permission then that one is just plain wrong for you to show. There were also some more along those lines that were not yours. Also in some there was a camera man and a few more peeps. MMm... but you say you never reveal anything to anyone. Those type caches are indeed wrong for you to have on your channel. YOUR CACHES. I do not understand why you can not be happy with just showing your caches. They are great, and I really enjoyed them and it is not wrong because they are YOURS so it is YOUR choice. Once again I think that is great. They kept me entertained. Kudos! I seem to remember that you state that you have something like 35 of your own caches. If so, that should be plenty for a person to get the idea and really get interested in geocaching. If it does not, then they are either dead or an old poop that likes to do nothing but stay in their house. So why put spoilers up of other peoples caches if you have so many? If you HAVE to have more why not just make more of your own or get a CO's permission? I do not understand. Yours are GREAT! Your vids of your caches are great, plenty to do the job. Please really consider dropping the other vids of caches that you do not have permission to post. Trust me, they are NOT needed. Sven, you really shouldn't just dismiss TeamPennyFinder as a troll. I didn't quote it, but the first three paragraph's above that complement you on your videos!! I agree fully with their thoughts about "user submitted" videos. Do they have permission of the cache owner? Sure, you can post videos of other people's caches, seeing as Groundspeak backed off in your particular case. But in the text for your YouTube channel, unless it's changed since the last time I looked, you basically invite anyone, anywhere in the world to submit videos of other peoples caches without the cache owners permission, and I too think this is just wrong. Link to comment
+Sven. Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 I too think this is just wrong. Then we're at a difference of opinion. And after 16 pages of gibberish I'm not sure either side is going to change the others opinion. I love caching. I love youtube. I love combining the two. People love seeing it. A small minority without any good reason deem it unacceptable. You can't please all the people all the time. I've changed several things to try and keep as many people as possible happy, the rest I invite not to watch. Link to comment
+Frank Broughton Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I've been involved in plenty of online communities relating to many hobbies, games, sports etc and never before have I come across such daft politics as in the geocaching community. Infact, that might have to be the topic of an upcoming video because it baffles me. It's-a-game! *Ok there is that one cache that someone will no doubt bring up, the owner is happy with this "spoiler" being live showthing the gc code - but I am not. When I'm next passing I'll video the container again so you trolls have less daft ammunition. Bunch of old bitter farts with nothing better in life to do I guess...... Francis, this is a Geocaching forum. We discuss Geocaching. Because you posted to this thread, does that mean you have nothing better in life to do? Don't think that's mean or anything, I know Frank Personally. haha - yeppers I know, I was being facetious... Mean, you My Yuck ever mean? naw.... haha Maybe the Urkman might have thought about it once or twice, but never Mr Yuck! Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) A small minority without any good reason deem it unacceptable. Perhaps you'd make more friends here (not that that's your goal or anything) if you stopped dismissing the whole "people are legitimately upset at me" thing as "no good reason". You have a difference of opinion. You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. I wager that while you may believe you have "majority" support, a majority here dislike how you've been interacting people. Your videos may be liked, but your presence and words are not. I don't think that's hard to see in this thread, if only for the fact that the debate is still going on after so many pages. Edited January 15, 2012 by thebruce0 Link to comment
+cx1 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Oh, If any of my posts sound like I'm saying he's wrong, that's only because Groundspeak, Inc. did in fact ban him for a month, no? And I can't stand all this "troll" talk. Groundspeak banned him. Does that mean CEO Jeremy Irish is a troll? Actually, he is very short. Link to comment
knowschad Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Sven, Do you not understand? No. You're saying (hypothetically) you watched spoiler videos online, then complained that I spoilt a cache for you? Yep, that is what was said.... as the owner of Mingo said recently, some take this gocaching thing too serious! The owner of Mingo's opinion is no better than anybody's. Some people take football too seriously, too. Link to comment
knowschad Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Its been a long, winding thread, but to the best of my memory, nobody has yet called Sven a stupid troll. I have seen it go the other way, however. Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 A small minority without any good reason deem it unacceptable. Perhaps you'd make more friends here (not that that's your goal or anything) if you stopped dismissing the whole "people are legitimately upset at me" thing as "no good reason". You have a difference of opinion. You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. I wager that while you may believe you have "majority" support, a majority here dislike how you've been interacting people. Your videos may be liked, but your presence and words are not. I don't think that's hard to see in this thread, if only for the fact that the debate is still going on after so many pages. I going to give qualified agreement to this. Sven does come across as a bit arrogant. Frankly I could care less if the number of subscribers to his channel is just shy of the number who subscribe the official geocaching.com YouTube channel. To me this issue has nothing to do with whether his videos are popular (though it does indicate there are many geocachers who find this kind of information useful). As I stated before, I don't know all the details, but is appears that when asked by a cache owner to take down a video, Sven's response was an arrogant "Why should I? It doesn't show any more than you show on the cache page." Had he instead say "How can I work with you to show a video we are both comfortable with?", perhaps they could have found a compromise and this whole incident could have been avoided. However, I still feel that there are those who are creating a false sense of entitlement among cache owners. It is natural for geocachers to exchange information about caches they have found. This happens all the time at geocaching events or friends talking about there caching experience. Some have extensive phone-a-friend networks where they call from the field when they have trouble finding a cache. Most cache owners her accept this. They don't go calling people share geocaching stories with each other cheaters. But if someone shares their geocaching experience with a broader circle of friends through a YouTube channel or in a blog we start to get people go berserk over caches being spoiled. People get really upset when you can search for spoilers using Google. Sven's videos don't contain enough information to show up for a search on a specific cache. Yet there are people here trying to insist this is the case. Frankly I find this whole thing silly. People post spoilers to movies, books, video games, puzzles, etc. Geocaches seem a natural extension and it should be expected. Demanding that Groundspeak punish those who share online is just ludicrous to me. As much as I am trying to understand the strong feelings some have, I just don't see what there is to get so upset about. Spoilers are going to happen, everyone seems to admit you can't stop all of them. Just because there are spoilers doesn't mean you can't still hide clever caches or tough puzzles. People who enjoy these caches more when the aren't spoiled will avoid the spoiler sites. The people who use the spoiler site are probably enjoying the find more than being frustrated by a cache that they would otherwise have to ignore. Referring to some technique someone uses to find a cache "cheating", just because you wouldn't use that technique seems every bit as arrogant as Sven. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Oh, If any of my posts sound like I'm saying he's wrong, that's only because Groundspeak, Inc. did in fact ban him for a month, no? And I can't stand all this "troll" talk. Groundspeak banned him. Does that mean CEO Jeremy Irish is a troll? Actually, he is very short. Very short? He's taller than I am. Link to comment
+cx1 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Its been a long, winding thread, but to the best of my memory, nobody has yet called Sven a stupid troll. I have seen it go the other way, however. Could be, that does not pertain to what I quoted or what I wrote though but ok. I'm not saying he is a nice guy (I've never met him) or he has excellent people skills. It does seem rather 'trollish' when some people have condemned his videos yet it turns out they had not even watched them though. So I am not sure his assessment was incorrect in every instance. Below is not directed at Knowschad specifically. As far as Groundspeak stating he was 'wrong' by giving him the temporary ban. Didn't they actually apologize, end the ban early, give him a free premium membership gift and then officially back away from their stance on trying to control 3rd party sites? Sounds almost like Sven was shown to be 'right'. Link to comment
+dfx Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Oh, If any of my posts sound like I'm saying he's wrong, that's only because Groundspeak, Inc. did in fact ban him for a month, no? And I can't stand all this "troll" talk. Groundspeak banned him. Does that mean CEO Jeremy Irish is a troll? Actually, he is very short. Very short? He's taller than I am. Then you're very short too. In fact, to me, most everybody's short. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways? Oh, If any of my posts sound like I'm saying he's wrong, that's only because Groundspeak, Inc. did in fact ban him for a month, no? And I can't stand all this "troll" talk. Groundspeak banned him. Does that mean CEO Jeremy Irish is a troll? Actually, he is very short. Very short? He's taller than I am. Then you're very short too. In fact, to me, most everybody's short. I'm 5'7", which is just above average for a woman. Of course, my husband's 6'5", so by default, most men look short next to him. Link to comment
+Sven. Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Perhaps you'd make more friends here (not that that's your goal or anything) if you stopped dismissing the whole "people are legitimately upset at me" thing as "no good reason". You have a difference of opinion. You are not "right" and they are not "wrong". Respect people's opinions. But I've yet to find anyone who is legitimately upset with me. I cannot respect respect your opinion if you think the moon is made of cheese....Much like I cannot respect your opinion if you assert my only intention is to purposely spoil everyone's cache. Oh, If any of my posts sound like I'm saying he's wrong, that's only because Groundspeak, Inc. did in fact ban him for a month, no? cx1 is correct: It does seem rather 'trollish' when some people have condemned his videos yet it turns out they had not even watched them though. So I am not sure his assessment was incorrect in every instance. Below is not directed at Knowschad specifically. As far as Groundspeak stating he was 'wrong' by giving him the temporary ban. Didn't they actually apologize, end the ban early, give him a free premium membership gift and then officially back away from their stance on trying to control 3rd party sites? Sounds almost like Sven was shown to be 'right'. Whilst my account was temporaily suspended whilst internal decisions were made the outcome was a u-turn, a restoration of my account and extra premium member time being added to compensate me for my loss. nobody has yet called Sven a stupid troll. I have seen it go the other way, however. No you haven't. I haven't called anyone a stupid troll. Calling someone a troll isn't an insult.....I said I cannot establish if they are a troll or just wilfully ignorant. And I'm still not convinced either way. As I stated before, I don't know all the details, but is appears that when asked by a cache owner to take down a video, Sven's response was an arrogant "Why should I? It doesn't show any more than you show on the cache page." Had he instead say "How can I work with you to show a video we are both comfortable with?", perhaps they could have found a compromise and this whole incident could have been avoided. *sigh* No, you don't know all the details. NONE of what you said is true. I did try to work with the CO. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 But I've yet to find anyone who is legitimately upset with me. Not that you ever had me, but you just lost me. This thread is clear evidence. If you can't see that, then there's no point in continuing Link to comment
+Sven. Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 But I've yet to find anyone who is legitimately upset with me. Not that you ever had me, but you just lost me. This thread is clear evidence. If you can't see that, then there's no point in continuing Oh i don't argue people are upset. Plenty of people go out of their way to be offended at the slightest of things. I've yet to hear legitimate complaint though. Link to comment
+TeamPennyFinder Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am not a troll. And yes, calling someone a troll on a message board IS an insult. In Sven's world, anybody that does not agree with you and happily pat you on the back is a troll. But of course you will not see it as legitimate so in Sven's world where your brain lives it is okay to do so. I was backing out of this thread but you just cannot for some reason stop poking. You artfully snip out my good comments to you from my post, you take parts out of context. To me it just looks like you want it to look like you are being persecuted. By the way even before I watched your videos it turned out that everything I was worried about was true. The answers to all my questions was yes. By the way you keep the idea going that I had not watched your videos even after I had watched them. Now a little background. I freely admit that I have a strong sense of fair play. This not only applies to geocaching. This applies to all games, sports, and life itself. I don't know, maybe it comes from my upbringing being a Navy brat, maybe from many years of coaching baseball and softball, maybe from many years of umpiring baseball. Of which I have been one of a very few umps allowed to umpire their son's games. My son's used to get so ticked off at me when I called them out. "But your our dad." "No, out here I am the ump." They only did that when they were little. They came to understand why I did it as they got older. I understand that geocaching is just a game. But even simple games have written rules and unwritten rules (etiquette). The world would be a madhouse without rules and laws. Games would be boring. "TAG YOUR IT!" "No I'm not" "Yes you are, I tagged you." "So, I think that is stupid so I am not it." The game would soon fall apart. I guess since he was unbanned it was found that he did not break any hard rules. I wonder if Sven is just going to quote that line? But IMHO he broke etiquette. Yes, that is my opinion influenced by my very strong sense of fair play. Like I have pointed out before. There is nothing wrong with him posting his own caches. I fully enjoyed them and thought they were well done. I think he needs to do more of his own. But, to me it is ummm... morally wrong to show everything about another CO's cache with out their permission. Link to comment
Keystone Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am closing this thread because folks are tired of reading "troll" accusations and so forth. The discussion has soured. Let's put away the subject of spoiler videos for awhile and not start another thread about this. Thanks. Link to comment
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