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Sven.

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This thread is an embarrassment to the Geocaching community. Most of you should be ashamed of yourselves--not because of your opinions, but because of the way you express them.

 

I am in complete agreement with the OP in every way. Keep the videos there. If you have permission from the CO (which you have clearly stated numerous times that you do) and people like your videos, keep them there. I would ignore the request to remove them.

Read thru the thread again. The OP doesn't have permission from the CO in any way. The CO brought the complaint to GS who then contacted the OP. Long story short.

 

GS can request but can't take any further action (by there own admition)

Its the OP's choice to remove the video or leave it

Said video is not a violation of the TOU

Posting a link to said video is a Violation of the TOU

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This thread is an embarrassment to the Geocaching community. Most of you should be ashamed of yourselves--not because of your opinions, but because of the way you express them.

Sorry, but I just don't read it that way. I think this has been a pretty respectful discussion. Certainly nothing to be ashamed about.
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Funny thing is I was watching his videos on youtube when I clicked over to check out the forums. The first thread I opened was this one and I have been reading from start to finish. Honestly I see his videos as spoilers to figuring out certain cache containers (but I expected that from his name). There is a really good chance I would be able to at one point or time head to England to cache (since I am in the Air Force)but I don't believe that any of his videos would spoil anything for me due to the fact I wouldn't remember them from watching them now. As for looking them up and trying to find the answer or location of a cache, there are many ways for people to do this if they want to spoil it for themselves. I won't even get into the arguement about legal rights and all that since it seems to have been settled.

 

I just wanted to put my thoughts into this. I enjoy the videos that you have put out, and I would hate to see you remove them. They have given me several hours of enjoyment on my spare time. Also, have given me some great ideas for the future. I am trying to change the fact that we don't have very many creative hides here in my area. We have one person that really seems to go out of his way to hide creative/difficult hides and I love them. So for me this just helps get my creative juices flowing. Since you seem to have permission to show the videos I would keep them coming. As with anything in this world not everyone is going to agree with you, but no laws are broken so keep them coming.

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If you have permission from the CO (which you have clearly stated numerous times that you do) and people like your videos, keep them there.

 

Finally at a pc for a few minutes, so I will try to cover this quickly.

 

The OP has CLEARLY stated 1 time that he had permission from the CO to post spoilers. And actually, he said he had permission for the video he linked to. But all along he has stated numerous times that everyone loves the videos and no one has complained. Other than Cup's (I assume that is his wife) caches, he never stated permission from CO's to post spoilers. And given his prior statements, I don't think he does have permission unless he owns all the caches and is being intentionally coy with us. But if he owned all the caches, I don't see why there would be any complaints and why he would not be forthcoming with this info.

 

I have received overwhelming positive response from these videos, I have without a doubt introduced hundreds of people to this sport. You can for yourself view the positive feedback in the comments on the videos, indeed I could provide hundreds of private messages where people thanked me for introducing them to the sport.

 

Not a statement of permission.

 

I have not had a complaint from a single cache owner. Besides it's NOT against the terms as stipulated above.

 

Not a statement of permission.

 

This channel has entertained almost 2,000 subscribers in a little over two months. It already gets 6,000 views every day. People are clearly looking.....none of them are local, according to the stats.

Not a statement of permission.

 

I posted a link to the channel, not to a video. The channel is called geocacheSPOILERS, what did you expect exactly?

 

Clearly states the link was intended to lead you to the channel, not a particular video. Also a clear statement of the intent to spoil.

 

<continued in next post due to quote limit per page>

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<continued from previous post>

Edit: Oh wait, "how would SHE feel if i posted videos of HER hides"?

 

I already have, infact I've posted all of my own hides on the youtube channel, take a look and let me know what you think :) I even tell you when they're Cup's evil ones :)

 

This is the closest thing he came to stating permission. It was already kind of assumed he had his own permission as well as that of his wife's.

 

I've never once claimed these are not spoilers. That's exactly what they are, and clearly labelled.

 

Clear admission that the purpose is to spoil.

 

There are no videos of geocaches on my channel of any caches where the CO has complained.

 

Not a statement of permission.

 

the TOS for posting links /without permission/. I have permission for everything I've posted.

 

Could be viewed as statement of permission. Given the coy nature of his earlier replies, not clear he is stating he has permission for spoilage from COs.

 

I have permission to post all the videos I've linked.

 

Again, give the coy nature of his posts, not a statement of permission to spoil. Only that he has given himself permission to post links to his videos.

 

Are you for real? The CO has given permission, to spoil the cache. Yes. Four times now.

 

Finally, a definitive YES, permission to spoil was granted statement.

 

If true, no TOU violation with posting the links so long as he is not profiting from the channel as a commercial adventure.

 

The whole thread really seems to be geared towards driving more traffic to his channel. I don't know.

 

What I do know is that nothing on his YouTube channel violates the TOU. It is only when he posts the info on Groundspeak's site that he needs to be concerned with the TOU.

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no laws are broken so keep them coming.

It's the same when non-cachers find a cache, show it to all their friends, and it gets stolen and archived. Nobody complained directly to them, nobody can "make them stop that", so anything they do is fine. And here Geocachers encourage it.

 

But I would NEVER reveal cache locations. I'd at least have a fake location at the end and probably make the whole thing a completely hypothetical hide. It could show the same clever hide styles, give the same information, without revealing actual cache locations. I cannot justify posting spoilers, then asking "anyone complain?", with passive-aggressive wrath to fall upon anyone who does.

Edited by kunarion
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Its the OP's choice to remove the video or leave it

Said video is not a violation of the TOU

Posting a link to said video is a Violation of the TOU

 

Not if I have permission from the CO, at least that's how I read the TOU, althoug the mod still seems to remove the links. Even if it's a link to my own geocache *shrug*.

 

There is a really good chance I would be able to at one point or time head to England to cache (since I am in the Air Force)but I don't believe that any of his videos would spoil anything for me due to the fact I wouldn't remember them from watching them now.

 

I love how Americans look at my island and assume it's tiny....could walk across it...I must have videod all the caches by now, right? ;)

 

Note I'm allowed to pick on Americans, Cup is a yank :) I actually live in Florida half the year but not had chance to cache there yet!

 

he never stated permission from CO's to post spoilers. And given his prior statements, I don't think he does have permission unless he owns all the caches and is being intentionally coy with us.

 

cartoon-bang-head-jpg.gif?w=200&h=200

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

You're really making my head hurt. Either you cannot read or you're just playing dumb.

 

I HAVE PERMISSION, FROM THE CO'S TO ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED. I'VE SAID THIS WHAT FEELS LIKE A DOZEN TIMES NOW.

 

I really don't know how i can make it any clearer, it's not a play on words. I have permission for those videos to be on youtube, and i've provided a link to those videos.

 

edit: What this means is the CO has seen the video and said "hey that's fine to on youtube". They're fine for the spoiler video to be there. They know it "spoils" their cache.

 

Sheesh. Why don't you ask me again.....

Edited by Sven&Cup
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I don't see it as a matter of legality or implied permissions. i see it as a matter of respect and courtesy for your fellow cachers. If you want to shoot and post video on your own caches, that's fine. Knock yourself out. But if you want to post video of anyone else's the owner of those caches should be shown the courtesy of being contacted and let them review the video first. Then, if they would prefer it be edited prior to posting or not posted at all, their wishes should be respected. Just because something may be legal, that doesn't make it right.

 

I second SQ's opinion.

 

Absence of complaints by COs does not mean no complaints would exist if all COs who had caches spoiled were aware of it.

 

And by CO permission, the polite and proper thing IMO (regardless of legality/TOS) is to ask each CO directly something along the lines of "I have videotaped my find of your cache GCxxxxx and would like to post it on my YouTube channel [channel name]. Are you okay with that?" If the CO says it is okay, you can then note in your videos that you have explicit permission from all COs who's hides you are videotaping. If the CO says no or never responds then don't post that video. It's polite, it sets a good precedent for others (spoilers are okay with explicity permission), and pretty much everyone gets to go home happy.

 

It's like opening a door for a stranger; you are under no obligation to do so, but the act is appreciated.

 

BTW are you spoiling Traditionals or finals for multis/puzzles/wherigos too?

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I HAVE PERMISSION, FROM THE CO'S TO ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED. I'VE SAID THIS WHAT FEELS LIKE A DOZEN TIMES NOW.

 

 

So who complained to Groundspeak?

Exactly. He posted a link to his channel. He's claiming he has permission to spoil all those caches. Then who complained?

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Its the OP's choice to remove the video or leave it

Said video is not a violation of the TOU

Posting a link to said video is a Violation of the TOU

 

Not if I have permission from the CO, at least that's how I read the TOU, althoug the mod still seems to remove the links. Even if it's a link to my own geocache *shrug*.

 

 

The Moderators removing the link I would think has more to do with taking people to a site determined to be commercial in nature...if people really want to look, it is easy enough to search for.

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the TOS for posting links /without permission/. I have permission for everything I've posted.

<snip>

 

Having read the guidelines I cannot find any violations I've committed? *shrug*

 

Unless you have the cache owners' permission to post the spoilers, then linking to them is a violation of the TOS.

 

I have permission to post all the videos I've linked.

 

Not quite an answer to the question. Do you have the cache owners permission? If not you are violating the TOU for GC.com.

 

The owner of the Tube site has clearly explained he has permission of the co's - like 4 times or so now. The way the average CO takes care of their caches I say they forfeit any rights to them anyways! Thus saith me! :P

No he hasn't. He has said a number of times that no one has complained but if they did he would remove the individual video. That is quite different from having permission. I guess because that seems to fly as adequate permission for most hides that he feels it is adequate for his videos as well.

 

I stand corrected..... OP do you have specific permission from the CO's?

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So who complained to Groundspeak?

 

Then who complained?

 

The member Jacaru complained because of my video of the Nuclear Bunker, watch the video carefully, I do not spoil anything to do with the geocache itself (as per the instructions that are in the cache description).

 

He sent me this email

 

From: Daryl

Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:19 PM

To: Sven

Subject: hi

 

Hiya again,

 

On second thoughts, sorry about the hassle I have been giving you. Just leave it [the video] up if you like.

 

Cheers,

 

Daryl

 

Maybe he complained before he sent that email, maybe he sent that email and then complained, no idea.

 

Sandy says there have been "complainants" only one person has moaned at me directly so I'm guessing it's either some friends of Jacaru or she has made a mistake....I asked her to clarify how many people have complained but she didn't respond.

 

So your guess is as good as mine.

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he never stated permission from CO's to post spoilers. And given his prior statements, I don't think he does have permission unless he owns all the caches and is being intentionally coy with us.

 

cartoon-bang-head-jpg.gif?w=200&h=200

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

You're really making my head hurt. Either you cannot read or you're just playing dumb.

 

I HAVE PERMISSION, FROM THE CO'S TO ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED. I'VE SAID THIS WHAT FEELS LIKE A DOZEN TIMES NOW.

 

I really don't know how i can make it any clearer, it's not a play on words. I have permission for those videos to be on youtube, and i've provided a link to those videos.

 

edit: What this means is the CO has seen the video and said "hey that's fine to on youtube". They're fine for the spoiler video to be there. They know it "spoils" their cache.

 

Sheesh. Why don't you ask me again.....

Now your confusing allot of people. You started this thread because GS sent you a notice about your video because a CO of the cache area in one of your videos didn't like it. So you don't have permission for that video, not that you need it anyway. You said in your first post:

I'll gladly provide the community relations team with evidence of overwhelming support from the community. There has been to date one negative ninny who doesn't like my videos because I videod his cache.....Well actually I didn't even video his cache and he's not happy!

 

So do you or don't you have permission to post said video on YouTube? You may have permission for all the other videos but the one in question here, the one this thread is all about, does not have permission. Once again weather you have permission or not doesn't change much but it has brought about the complaint and is the main topic of this thread. So lets get the story straight once and for all.

 

EDIT: you got a response off before i got mine in. So the story is now clear. Sorry about that. Gotta learn to think and type faster. lol

Edited by mpilchfamily
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It all seems to be getting wayyyyy off topic.

 

First the terms

Then the permission

 

I'm simply asking, is making videos of geocaches bad?

 

There's a billion folks doing it on youtube, I'm just one other.

 

Bearing in mind...I never provide the location, the general area or even the GC code - so what AM I spoiling? I'm only showing unique or cool containers.

 

There is the facility, on youtube, for me to block an entire country from viewing my videos.

 

I could block the whole of the UK. Anyone with an ip address in the UK wouldn't be able to watch a single video of mine.

 

That would solve the "problem" in one foul swoop - nobody within hundreds of miles can get a spoiler. Perhaps I'll do that....but then...I seem to be babysitting people, anyone looking at my videos is getting a clearly marked spoiler....If they don't like it, perhaps they shouldn't watch it.

 

edit: type too fast, got my muckin words fixed.

Edited by Sven&Cup
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So who complained to Groundspeak?

 

Then who complained?

 

The member Jacaru complained because of my video of the Nuclear Bunker, watch the video carefully, I do not spoil anything to do with the geocache itself (as per the instructions that are in the cache description).

 

He sent me this email

 

From: Daryl

Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:19 PM

To: Sven

Subject: hi

 

Hiya again,

 

On second thoughts, sorry about the hassle I have been giving you. Just leave it [the video] up if you like.

 

Cheers,

 

Daryl

 

Maybe he complained before he sent that email, maybe he sent that email and then complained, no idea.

 

Sandy says there have been "complainants" only one person has moaned at me directly so I'm guessing it's either some friends of Jacaru or she has made a mistake....I asked her to clarify how many people have complained but she didn't respond.

 

So your guess is as good as mine.

 

I'm glad you worked it out between the two of you. Getting Grounspeak involved certainly caused a lot of unneccesary angst here in the forum.

 

I still believe that while some cache owners get upset if spoilers are published for their cache, that there is no need for Groundspeak to police this. If they want, they are certainly free to include in their TOU restrictions on publishing spoilers (or links to spoilers) on Groundspeak websites. They have no business controlling what people say on Facebook, YouTube, or in their personal geocaching blogs. There will be spoilers and cache owners need to accept this as a fact of life and stop whining to Groundspeak to be their protector. I find Groundspeak's decision to get involved a bit puzzling.

 

After viewing your YouTube site I wonder if you aren't a glutton for punishment. I just can't imagine posting a YouTube video that says "My girlfriend is dumb". If you can do this, then certainly you don't care what people have called you in this thread.

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Bearing in mind...I never provide the location, the general area or even the GC code - so what AM I spoiling?

 

Yes, posting spoilers is bad.

 

You aren't spoiling anything? You sure picked a funny name for your YouTube channel, then.

 

I think it's rather disingenuous to post videos under the name "geocachespoilers" and then pretend to not be spoiling anything.

 

Look, you do what you want. You asked for opinions, we gave them to you. Sorry we aren't telling you what you wanted to hear, but the fact is that spoilers aren't very popular around here.

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Bearing in mind...I never provide the location, the general area or even the GC code - so what AM I spoiling?

 

Yes, posting spoilers is bad.

 

You aren't spoiling anything? You sure picked a funny name for your YouTube channel, then.

 

I think it's rather disingenuous to post videos under the name "geocachespoilers" and then pretend to not be spoiling anything.

 

Look, you do what you want. You asked for opinions, we gave them to you. Sorry we aren't telling you what you wanted to hear, but the fact is that spoilers aren't very popular around here.

I'm saying I'm only spoiling something to someone that is looking for something spoilt.....To the average Joe cacher stumbing around youtube I'm not spoiling anything...

 

but the fact is that spoilers aren't very popular around here.

 

Must be an Americanism

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IMO posting videos is fine. It may step on some CO toes as this one video has. But no one can stop you from making and posting the videos on youtube. Some people are of the opinion that making such videos is being discourteous to fellow cachers. But that is a judgement call for you to make. As this thread has shown the subject of spoilers is a very opinionated one.

 

Wonder if anyone has a problem with Strategy Guides, Walk Throughs or Cheat codes for games? I'm guessing most peoples answers will follow there opinions on the spoiler videos. Like you said... "If they don't like it, perhaps they shouldn't watch it." People have the option to play the game the way they want. If they want to be handed the answers then they certainly have that option. If not then thats there choice as well. No one is forcing these people to look at the videos and the CO probably shouldn't worry so much about how others play the game. As long as the cache was found, the log was signed, and logged online then what does it matter.

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IMO posting videos is fine. It may step on some CO toes as this one video has. But no one can stop you from making and posting the videos on youtube. Some people are of the opinion that making such videos is being discourteous to fellow cachers. But that is a judgement call for you to make. As this thread has shown the subject of spoilers is a very opinionated one.

 

Wonder if anyone has a problem with Strategy Guides, Walk Throughs or Cheat codes for games? I'm guessing most peoples answers will follow there opinions on the spoiler videos. Like you said... "If they don't like it, perhaps they shouldn't watch it." People have the option to play the game the way they want. If they want to be handed the answers then they certainly have that option. If not then thats there choice as well. No one is forcing these people to look at the videos and the CO probably shouldn't worry so much about how others play the game. As long as the cache was found, the log was signed, and logged online then what does it matter.

 

That sums up my opinion better than I could voice it, thanks.

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IMO posting videos is fine. It may step on some CO toes as this one video has. But no one can stop you from making and posting the videos on youtube. Some people are of the opinion that making such videos is being discourteous to fellow cachers. But that is a judgement call for you to make. As this thread has shown the subject of spoilers is a very opinionated one.

 

Wonder if anyone has a problem with Strategy Guides, Walk Throughs or Cheat codes for games? I'm guessing most peoples answers will follow there opinions on the spoiler videos. Like you said... "If they don't like it, perhaps they shouldn't watch it." People have the option to play the game the way they want. If they want to be handed the answers then they certainly have that option. If not then thats there choice as well. No one is forcing these people to look at the videos and the CO probably shouldn't worry so much about how others play the game. As long as the cache was found, the log was signed, and logged online then what does it matter.

 

That sums up my opinion better than I could voice it, thanks.

Probably a good point to ask the mods to close the thread because most do not agree with opinion.

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Its the OP's choice to remove the video or leave it

Said video is not a violation of the TOU

Posting a link to said video is a Violation of the TOU

 

Not if I have permission from the CO, at least that's how I read the TOU, althoug the mod still seems to remove the links. Even if it's a link to my own geocache *shrug*.

 

There is a really good chance I would be able to at one point or time head to England to cache (since I am in the Air Force)but I don't believe that any of his videos would spoil anything for me due to the fact I wouldn't remember them from watching them now.

 

I love how Americans look at my island and assume it's tiny....could walk across it...I must have videod all the caches by now, right? ;)

 

Note I'm allowed to pick on Americans, Cup is a yank :) I actually live in Florida half the year but not had chance to cache there yet!

 

he never stated permission from CO's to post spoilers. And given his prior statements, I don't think he does have permission unless he owns all the caches and is being intentionally coy with us.

 

cartoon-bang-head-jpg.gif?w=200&h=200

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

You're really making my head hurt. Either you cannot read or you're just playing dumb.

 

I HAVE PERMISSION, FROM THE CO'S TO ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED. I'VE SAID THIS WHAT FEELS LIKE A DOZEN TIMES NOW.

 

I really don't know how i can make it any clearer, it's not a play on words. I have permission for those videos to be on youtube, and i've provided a link to those videos.

 

edit: What this means is the CO has seen the video and said "hey that's fine to on youtube". They're fine for the spoiler video to be there. They know it "spoils" their cache.

 

Sheesh. Why don't you ask me again.....

 

I stand corrected as I originally said.... haha YES, YOU ARE VERY CLEAR!!!

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Probably a good point to ask the mods to close the thread because most do not agree with opinion.

 

Adult debate and civil disagreement is a good idea to ask for someone to close the thread? Why? I'm not scared of being at cross opinions with anyone. Just as they shouldn't be scared of being at cross opinions with me!

 

I'm also not scared of changing my opinion when necessary - hence the discussion around this subject.

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but the fact is that spoilers aren't very popular around here.

 

Must be an Americanism

In another thread on this subject, it was indicated that most of the spoiler sites are in (continental) Europe and in America we don't see such a problem with spoilers. I pointed out that the Puritan influence in America probably means that most Americans are not inclined to use the so-call "cheat" sites, so they aren't so popular. In non-Puritan Europe, using a spoiler is more acceptable.

 

Of course, the Puritan influence should apply somewhat to the UK as well.

 

My guess is that a lot of the anger against you stems from this Puritanism. Using the name GeocachingSpoilers, seems ot indicate a nefarious purpose to the Puritans. You might have done better just calling your site Cool Caching Containers.

 

Frankly, I don't see any problem with your videos and as you say, someone who doesn't want to see the spoilers could easily avoid your site. As far as cache owners getting a say in whether or not their cache is "spoiled", I have little sympathy. This is an internet based game and people are going to share information. The puritans may not like it but it is a fact of life.

 

And now that the word "puritan" has been used, GeoGeeBee's rule can be applied.

Edited by tozainamboku
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Its the OP's choice to remove the video or leave it

Said video is not a violation of the TOU

Posting a link to said video is a Violation of the TOU

 

Not if I have permission from the CO, at least that's how I read the TOU, althoug the mod still seems to remove the links. Even if it's a link to my own geocache *shrug*.

 

There is a really good chance I would be able to at one point or time head to England to cache (since I am in the Air Force)but I don't believe that any of his videos would spoil anything for me due to the fact I wouldn't remember them from watching them now.

 

I love how Americans look at my island and assume it's tiny....could walk across it...I must have videod all the caches by now, right? ;)

 

Note I'm allowed to pick on Americans, Cup is a yank :) I actually live in Florida half the year but not had chance to cache there yet!

 

he never stated permission from CO's to post spoilers. And given his prior statements, I don't think he does have permission unless he owns all the caches and is being intentionally coy with us.

 

cartoon-bang-head-jpg.gif?w=200&h=200

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

You're really making my head hurt. Either you cannot read or you're just playing dumb.

 

I HAVE PERMISSION, FROM THE CO'S TO ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED. I'VE SAID THIS WHAT FEELS LIKE A DOZEN TIMES NOW.

 

I really don't know how i can make it any clearer, it's not a play on words. I have permission for those videos to be on youtube, and i've provided a link to those videos.

 

edit: What this means is the CO has seen the video and said "hey that's fine to on youtube". They're fine for the spoiler video to be there. They know it "spoils" their cache.

 

Sheesh. Why don't you ask me again.....

 

I stand corrected as I originally said.... haha YES, YOU ARE VERY CLEAR!!!

If he was very clear we wouldn't be having a discussion about a co complaining. And instead of saying he's had no complaints but from one Bunny something, he could have said "I obtained spoiler permission for all videos including the 1 complainer which came a little later."

 

That would have been clear. Instead, he chose to play word games which have led me to question if he really does have permission.

 

But that point is moot as he has clarified his question which is, "are spoilers bad".

 

In my opinion, the Spoilers themselves are not bad. For me it's only a question of permission and only as a courtesy issue.

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Probably a good point to ask the mods to close the thread because most do not agree with opinion.

 

Adult debate and civil disagreement is a good idea to ask for someone to close the thread? Why? I'm not scared of being at cross opinions with anyone. Just as they shouldn't be scared of being at cross opinions with me!

 

I'm also not scared of changing my opinion when necessary - hence the discussion around this subject.

As long as you don't mind opposing viewpoints, carry on. We gots lots of them 'round here.

 

* darn auto-correct

Edited by GeoBain
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IMO posting videos is fine. It may step on some CO toes as this one video has. But no one can stop you from making and posting the videos on youtube. Some people are of the opinion that making such videos is being discourteous to fellow cachers. But that is a judgement call for you to make. As this thread has shown the subject of spoilers is a very opinionated one.

 

Wonder if anyone has a problem with Strategy Guides, Walk Throughs or Cheat codes for games? I'm guessing most peoples answers will follow there opinions on the spoiler videos. Like you said... "If they don't like it, perhaps they shouldn't watch it." People have the option to play the game the way they want. If they want to be handed the answers then they certainly have that option. If not then thats there choice as well. No one is forcing these people to look at the videos and the CO probably shouldn't worry so much about how others play the game. As long as the cache was found, the log was signed, and logged online then what does it matter.

 

That sums up my opinion better than I could voice it, thanks.

Probably a good point to ask the mods to close the thread because most do not agree with opinion.

That too is your opinion. But everyone has there opinions. Some to one side or the other and some that are in the middle. That is what makes this thread such an interesting one. There is no right answer here. Some want to be more aware of the CO's feelings. Some like my self think they need to get over it. Others want to find compromise.

 

I always thought of myself as one who liked compromise. In this case i think life is too short to be worrying about someone posting a video about my cache. In fact, if a video spoiler was posted about my cache i would consider it an honer. My cache being interesting enough for someone to go out of there way to film it and show off to the rest of the world. At the same time i see how the CO is a little miffed. He went and created a great 5/5 cache. Meant to challenge cachers. Someone comes along and and destroys the challenge behind it. But at the same time if people are trolling Youtube and decide to watch a video about a cache marked spoiler then that is there choice. They where warned so they can no get upset if they come across the cache some time later. Thats why in the end i see no problem with spoiler videos. I try to be objective about most things. I know there are many sides to a argument and prefer to get a decent understanding of both before jumping to one side or the other. Opinions can/do change as they should. I only wish more people could be objective about things. It would save allot of time and wasted effort and fighting.

 

Bit of a tangent there. Hope i didn't get off topic to much.

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Seem's we're all wrong about the sites TOS. Sandy says:

 

You are without question in violation of our Terms of Use (section 4m) - as pointed out by several responders to that thread. While I cannot force you to remove the video, as I mentioned previously, I can now impose a period of suspension from Geocaching.com. You are asked to remove that specific spoiler video from YouTube, so that you are not in violation of our Terms of Use, or you will be suspended from Geocaching.com. Please note that if we hear from other cache owners similarly affected, we will be contacting you immediately.

I will await your reply or the removal of the video.

 

 

See you when im unbanned.

 

edit: although the ban will be unjust as I do have permission *shrug*

 

edit2: also the video im being threatened of being banned for simply video of a public(?) place. No geocache, nothing that would help you find it. So it's also not a spoiler by my definition.....It only shows what the description already says is there. I'm revealing NOTHING a cacher doesn't already know by the description. As I say, the ban will be unjust.

Edited by Sven&Cup
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I guess something I don't understand is this. Let's say as a cache finder I'm highly opposed to having a cache spoiled before I can find it myself. Why then would I watch a video by CacheSpoilers, or whatever the name is, in the first place, knowing well they're likely going to be spoiling caches? Isn't it the responsibility of the cacher to look out for themselves? It should be pretty obvious what one is getting themselves into before watching any of these videos.

 

If you don't want a movie spoiled then don't go running off to moviespoilers.com and get mad about it.

 

From a cache owner perspective, sure, maybe it sucks, but in reality people talk about caches, there the whole PAF thing, and people spoil caches in logs all the time without even realizing it. I think the number of people who are going to watch these videos, and the number of caches being spoiled, are all really low as compared to the total number of caches/cachers out there. Maybe it's a jerk move to video a cache, and refuse to remove it when someone asks, but really, what can ya do?

 

It's apparant that Sven is willing to take a banning over removing the video (aside: I don't know if this is because he stands for what he believes, if he's being stubborn for the fun of it, or just attention seeking and pumping his view count). Even banned there are plenty of ways for him to continue to seek and spoil caches, so it's a wasted effort really.

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This is a sad day for geocaching, in my opinion*. They have decided that it is their right to censor what members can say on other websites. Must anyone who has a geocaching blog or who posts videos now have to get cache owner permission before sharing their experiences geocaching? What nonsense.

 

While many people may agree that it's not nice to spoil someone else's cache, it is simply a fact of life in this internet age, that information is shared online in a number of ways. Keeping people from using the internet to share information is something that dictators do (and not very successfully based on recent events). It shouldn't be something that Groundspeak does. Geocaching is advanced by sharing our experiences. Censoring what can be discussed about geocaching on other website to keep a few cache owners happy is not very good for geocaching in the long run.

 

* for knowschad.

Edited by tozainamboku
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The video does not show, or tell, the cache name or number.

It does not show the cache, or where it is hidden.

 

There is a 'slight' location give-away, with a warning on the youtube site saying

"If you're from the East Midlands then DON'T WATCH THESE VIDEOS as you will spoil local caches to you."

 

Fair enough!

 

The cache name does imply where the cache may be hidden.

There are a few hidden like that in the UK...

There's a series of them...

 

Others have cachers video's linked from the logs of finders... No one has complained about those.

 

Most cachers doing those caches expect the cache to be IN the bunker!

 

I have no problem with the video.

(In fact would have been blissfully unaware of it, if the cache owner hadn't thrown a tantrum...

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Seem's we're all wrong about the sites TOS. Sandy says:

 

You are without question in violation of our Terms of Use (section 4m) - as pointed out by several responders to that thread. While I cannot force you to remove the video, as I mentioned previously, I can now impose a period of suspension from Geocaching.com.

I'd force the issue now. If that's how they interpret the tou, then they are saying they can suspend you for helping someone over the phone or even verbally in person. There are a lot of PAF networks in jeopardy.

 

If I live in Seattle, I'd, post up a video and send them the link just they could suspend me and I could take them to small claims and have a judge interpret that clause. (I'm too cheap to hire a lawyer)

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Maybe it's a jerk move to video a cache, and refuse to remove it when someone asks, but really, what can ya do?

You can stand up for what's right.

 

The entire draw of "spoiler" videos is that they're taboo. You and I know it's the WRONG thing to do, and that's the angle: anti-establishment, sticking it to the man, just try and stop me. It appeals to that mindset, not to someone who wants to play the game with a semblance of rules. When someone posts a neon arrow pointing to a hiddden container and shouts, "Hey everyone look at this", please redirect your indignation to the person who posted it.

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While it wouldn't hold up in court its not worth the time and money to fight it. Unless the loss of your 1 year membership is that big of a deal for you.

 

I guess now we need to ask permission from COs before posting anything in the forums about there cashes. As said above we'll start seeing Geocaching blogs getting notes to stop discussing caches. I only hope they come to there senses otherwise they could have allot of bogus claims about permission issues and we'll see lots of good caching videos and blogs get taken down.

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I'd force the issue now. If that's how they interpret the tou, then they are saying they can suspend you for helping someone over the phone or even verbally in person. There are a lot of PAF networks in jeopardy.

 

There's a difference between public and private information. A video on youtube is available to anyone; the information on a PAF network is only available to those within that network.

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If that's how they interpret the tou, then they are saying they can suspend you for helping someone over the phone or even verbally in person. There are a lot of PAF networks in jeopardy.
Do you really consider talking to an individual over the phone or in person to be "publishing" anything? Because that's what section 4.(m) addresses: the publication of solutions, hints, spoilers, or hidden coordinates.

 

Sven&Cup, you have now clearly stated that you have permission from the CO of every cache depicted in "ALL THE LINKS I'VE POSTED". Thank you.

 

But do you have permission from the CO of every cache depicted in your spoiler YouTube videos? Given Groundspeak's interpretation of section 4.(m) of the guidelines, and given the existing complaints about your spoiler YouTube videos, I think that's what you need to demonstrate to appease Groundspeak.

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we'll see lots of good caching videos and blogs get taken down.

No, but the good caches get taken down. Post a video to a cache, dare the CO to do anything about it, and a recourse is archiving it.

 

It's not so much an issue of "permission". Around here, caches are supposed to have at least a slight level of secrecy to the location, and some spots were selected with more time and effort than ever would be put into a video. Once non-cachers find out about it, the process begins to eventual archiving. There are many ways that could occur, but an online video with directions is one of the cheesiest.

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I'd force the issue now. If that's how they interpret the tou, then they are saying they can suspend you for helping someone over the phone or even verbally in person. There are a lot of PAF networks in jeopardy.

 

There's a difference between public and private information. A video on youtube is available to anyone; the information on a PAF network is only available to those within that network.

 

The TOU makes no distinction between public or private. They are saying they have the right to control what you say anywhere and by any means.

 

No court would uphold it. But the OP can't fight it from the UK. Not worth the cost. So basically he's screwed. But I forsee a lot more complaints to Groundspeak about spoilers, solutions, etc. You'd think they would tire of putting themselves in the middle of all this garbage.

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Do you really consider talking to an individual over the phone or in person to be "publishing" anything? Because that's what section 4.(m) addresses: the publication of solutions, hints, spoilers, or hidden coordinates.

If TPTB think they can stretch what is in 4m to include every website on the internet, then yes, I believe they can stretch 4m to include a phone call between 2 cachers and most definitely the posting of phone numbers for a PAF network.

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***WARNING THIS IS A 2 CENTS PRODUCTION***

 

spoilers, right or wrong is no longer the issue.

 

I live near the OP and have spoken to him a few times in our local geocaching forum (online not in person ), agree he does not like to be wrong (who does?) and so far has not been convinced his opinion should change, neither have I.

 

Now GS is involved and IMHO (risking a ban probably) is flexing a "Big broher" muscle. It may interest to know that the CO who may have complained did change some of the cache page wording after the initial exchange to omit certain detail that "spoilt" the cache location.

 

This is now a question of free speech:

People died and do die everyday for the right to freedom of speech. Many band together in the face of larger and stronger opposition to uphold the notion of freedom of speech. What may have passed may not be cricket but GS to be an out an out bully is not on (that's how I see it). I say do not impose a ban, but it's your business GS, your dollars rolling in you look after it how you see fit.

 

Flame away!!!

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Clarification:

 

The problem is a link to the nuclear bunker video in the other thread.

 

Even though i have an email giving permisson for it to be on youtube from the c/o..

Even though the video isn't a spoiler at all and gives nothing away that isn't told to you in the cache description.

 

This isn't good enough for Sandy.

 

I requested the link be removed from the locked post that i am unable to edit so i can conform to the tos. Ignored she still threatens me witht the banhammer. So i've made the video private.

 

Why can't they just edit the post and be done with it???

 

 

I requested Sandy remove the link, so i can conform

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***WARNING THIS IS A 2 CENTS PRODUCTION***

 

spoilers, right or wrong is no longer the issue.

 

I live near the OP and have spoken to him a few times in our local geocaching forum (online not in person ), agree he does not like to be wrong (who does?) and so far has not been convinced his opinion should change, neither have I.

 

Now GS is involved and IMHO (risking a ban probably) is flexing a "Big broher" muscle. It may interest to know that the CO who may have complained did change some of the cache page wording after the initial exchange to omit certain detail that "spoilt" the cache location.

 

This is now a question of free speech:

People died and do die everyday for the right to freedom of speech. Many band together in the face of larger and stronger opposition to uphold the notion of freedom of speech. What may have passed may not be cricket but GS to be an out an out bully is not on (that's how I see it). I say do not impose a ban, but it's your business GS, your dollars rolling in you look after it how you see fit.

 

Flame away!!!

Personally i was trying to steer clear of the free speech issue. But i kept coming back to it. And now that its out there i still don't know if i want to harp on it or not. I really don't want to make this political but i guess thats the way its heading.

 

I'll wait and see how this plays out...

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