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Sven.

Youtube geocaching videos

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Hello community.

 

I'm rather confused. I've received this email from a "community relations" at Groundspeak. Regarding my youtube channel.

 

Hi there Sven' date='

 

Groundspeak has been informed that you are posting spoiler videos on YouTube which 'help' cachers find caches. We ask you to consider pulling these videos from the site and refrain from posting additional videos, unless you are the cache owner. The cache owners of many of these cachers are upset by the spoiler videos and we agree that this type of content is not in keeping with the spirit of caching.

 

We would appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sandy

 

Community Relations Manager

[/quote']

 

I'm confused for a few reasons.

 

I have received overwhelming positive response from these videos, I have without a doubt introduced hundreds of people to this sport. You can for yourself view the positive feedback in the comments on the videos, indeed I could provide hundreds of private messages where people thanked me for introducing them to the sport.

 

Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

 

The "community relations" say I am providing "help" so people can find these caches, this is absurd. I do not provide a location or indeed a GC code. Besides my british accent nobody would have any idea where the geocache is geographically. Even when asked in comments or privately I don't give this information away.

 

I'll gladly provide the community relations team with evidence of overwhelming support from the community. There has been to date one negative ninny who doesn't like my videos because I videod his cache.....Well actually I didn't even video his cache and he's not happy!

 

What do you think? There's only a billion other youtube videos out there detailing caches, are they getting emails from Groundspeak too? Or are they just picking on me?

 

I'm basically being asked to delete hours, no days of my life! A lot of hard work has gone into this.

 

What does the community think? Delete or keep? I feel a bit indignant to the whole situation to be honest....

Edited by Keystone
link to spoiler site removed by moderator

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I'd have to see the video's in question to be able to answer this properly.

 

It is possible that the one person who complained has complained to Groundspeak and so have deemed it necessary to contact you.

Is there any way you can get the content from that one guy's cache out of your video? Can you edit him out? He may be the squeeky wheel here. That would be my guess.

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Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

Edited by CanadianRockies

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The thread was closed on the original discussion so why try to light the fire again in a new thread?

 

Bottom line is GS stepped in and made a request. Now its up to you weather you honor that request or not. They have no way of taking action against you as i stated in the original thread. Though you could harass Youtube enough that they will take it down. They have been know to bend over at the slightest hint of another company not liking content. But chances are they will see that GS has no ownership or claim to anything presented in the video and take no action against you. But the choice is now yours.

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What does the community think? Delete or keep? I feel a bit indignant to the whole situation to be honest....

It's part of the Terms Of Use agreement, that you agree to not post spoilers. One thing that would clear it all up is to contact those cache owners. Be sure they have your blessing to post videos of their caches, and it's not a problem anymore. Ideally, do that in advance.

 

If you continue to be indignant, you may an indignant with no membership on the site. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Edited by kunarion

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Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

As someone else pointed out in the other thread. You are taking that statement out of context. That statement is in reference to using GroudSpeak's Publishing Tools and Forums. Be sure to read section 4 of the TOS fully. More problems are caused by people taking statements out of context and twisting it to there will.

http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

GS cannot control what you post outside there servers unless it pertains to things they have a copywriter, trademark, trade secret or some other means to legally claim it as there own.

Edited by mpilchfamily

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I'd have to see the video's in question to be able to answer this properly.

 

Linked in the original post.

 

Is there any way you can get the content from that one guy's cache out of your video? Can you edit him out? He may be the squeeky wheel here. That would be my guess.

I didn't video his cache container at all, or location, again, see the original post.

 

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

Indeed, but this refers to the geocaching website only, (i.e. posting this kind of stuff in logs) this doesn't apply to youtube.

 

The thread was closed on the original discussion so why try to light the fire again in a new thread?

 

Because I've had the above email tonight.

 

What does the community think? Delete or keep? I feel a bit indignant to the whole situation to be honest....

It's part of the Terms Of Use agreement, that you agree to not post spoilers. One thing that would clear it all up is to contact those cache owners. Be sure they have your blessing to post videos of their caches, and it's not a problem anymore. Ideally, do that in advance.

 

If you continue to be indignant, you may an indignant with no membership on the site. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

 

I have not had a complaint from a single cache owner. Besides it's NOT against the terms as stipulated above.

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Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

As someone else pointed out in the other thread. You are taking that statement out of context. That statement is in reference to using GroudSpeak's Publishing Tools and Forums. Be sure to read section 4 of the TOS fully. More problems are caused by people taking statements out of context and twisting it to there will.

http://www.geocachin...termsofuse.aspx

 

I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

The wording, "(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner." seems pretty clear to me. As CanadianRockies has pointed out, "The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers."

 

I just watched the video in question, and in my opinion, yes, it IS a spoiler. It would totally spoil it for me if I walked up to that spot. That is a very clever, fun hide, but it would provide no challenge to me if I had seen your video. My immediate reaction would be, "Hey! I saw this one on Youtube... its right here!".

Edited by knowschad

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If they are fairly mundane hides, I think a CO would be making a big deal about something trivial.

 

If someone has a particularly clever/difficult hide, I would think you should not post a spoiler video without the owner's permission. Even if you don't state the cache name, GC code, or your location is some can deduce it especially by looking up what caches you have logged a Find on recently or by noticing familiar things in the video (especially if they've already been to the cache before and DNF'd it).

Edited by Joshism

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Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

As someone else pointed out in the other thread. You are taking that statement out of context. That statement is in reference to using GroudSpeak's Publishing Tools and Forums. Be sure to read section 4 of the TOS fully. More problems are caused by people taking statements out of context and twisting it to there will.

http://www.geocachin...termsofuse.aspx

 

I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

The wording, "(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner." seems pretty clear to me. As CanadianRockies has pointed out, "The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers."

If GS wants to push that issue they can but it won't hold up in court. That small statement is not a stand alone clause but a supporting sub section of section 4 in the TOS. Holding you responsible for what you upload to the sites GS owns not other sites. GS reps can read it how they want and interpret it how they want but when push comes to shove the worst they can do is lock the user account but that stops nothing. The user can always come back with another account and continue to make videos. They have no legal grounds to force the removal of the videos.

Edited by mpilchfamily

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I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

Groundspeak is well aware that we have no recourse to insist or penalize you for posting videos about other people's caches on Youtube, which is why my initial email was a request and presented the cache owner's perspective.

 

That's Sandy's word.

Edited by Sven&Cup

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I'd have to see the video's in question to be able to answer this properly.

 

Linked in the original post.

 

Is there any way you can get the content from that one guy's cache out of your video? Can you edit him out? He may be the squeeky wheel here. That would be my guess.

I didn't video his cache container at all, or location, again, see the original post.

 

When you use the Groundspeak website, you agree to abide by their Terms of Use Agreement. In section 4 (Use of Publishing Tools and Forums): "You agree not to:...(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner."

 

Having many positive comments about your videos doesn't change the fact that you agreed not to publish any spoilers. The question is whether or not your videos include spoilers. The one I viewed isn't really black or white but rather gray. You don't show the name or GC code for the cache, but I might easily recognize the location and hiding place if I ever searched for that particular cache.

Indeed, but this refers to the geocaching website only, (i.e. posting this kind of stuff in logs) this doesn't apply to youtube.

 

The thread was closed on the original discussion so why try to light the fire again in a new thread?

 

Because I've had the above email tonight.

 

What does the community think? Delete or keep? I feel a bit indignant to the whole situation to be honest....

It's part of the Terms Of Use agreement, that you agree to not post spoilers. One thing that would clear it all up is to contact those cache owners. Be sure they have your blessing to post videos of their caches, and it's not a problem anymore. Ideally, do that in advance.

 

If you continue to be indignant, you may an indignant with no membership on the site. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

 

I have not had a complaint from a single cache owner. Besides it's NOT against the terms as stipulated above.

Yep. You're certainly indignant.

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If someone has a particularly clever/difficult hide, I would think you should not post a spoiler video without the owner's permission. Even if you don't state the cache name, GC code, or your location is some can deduce it especially by looking up what caches you have logged a Find on recently or by noticing familiar things in the video (especially if they've already been to the cache before and DNF'd it).

 

Anyone in that situation is only spoiling it for themselves, and those kinds of people are the sort that will use PAF and the like.

 

If they want to choose that path let them. I upload caches from a small town in middle England. The majority of my youtube viewers are from the USA. You can see the positive response to the videos yourself by looking at a handful of comments.

 

Why close the channel because the chance of 0.0001% of the audience might stumble on the videos? Anyone purposefully looking gets what they deserve, surely? No?

 

This channel has entertained almost 2,000 subscribers in a little over two months. It already gets 6,000 views every day. People are clearly looking.....none of them are local, according to the stats.

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The particular video you posted is nothing but a spoiler. There is no explanation about your experience getting to the hide, nothing about how hard you looked to find it and how you felt when you did discover it. When you said you have spent a lot of time on it I was shocked to watch such a short, simply spoiler, video as your example.

 

I know from reading your other posts that Cup likes to make difficult hides. How would she feel if you posted a spoiler video of her hides?

Edited by AmphibianTrackers

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The particular video you posted is nothing but a spoiler. There is no explanation about your experience getting to the hide, nothing about how hard you looked to find it and how you felt when you did discover it. When you said you have spent a lot of time on it I was shocked to watch such a short, simply spoiler, video as your example.

 

I posted a link to the channel, not to a video. The channel is called geocacheSPOILERS, what did you expect exactly?

 

I know from reading your other posts that Cup likes to make difficult finds. How would she feel if you posted a spoiler video of her hides?

 

I welcome it, indeed one of my caches has had many photos posted on a site. I was quite excited, infact it feels like a badge to me.Indeed, read the local cachers responses - they say the same - and it's their caches!

 

Edit: Oh wait, "how would SHE feel if i posted videos of HER hides"?

 

I already have, infact I've posted all of my own hides on the youtube channel, take a look and let me know what you think :) I even tell you when they're Cup's evil ones :)

Edited by Sven&Cup

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I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

Groundspeak is well aware that we have no recourse to insist or penalize you for posting videos about other people's caches on Youtube, which is why my initial email was a request and presented the cache owner's perspective.

 

That's Sandy's word.

 

True... she has no legal recourse to make you take them down. But she can terminate your membership if they deem that to be the best route. Look... intentionally or not, you stepped on somebody's toes. Man up and lose the video. Be the bigger person here.

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True... she has no legal recourse to make you take them down. But she can terminate your membership if they deem that to be the best route. Look... intentionally or not, you stepped on somebody's toes. Man up and lose the video. Be the bigger person here.

 

I'm being asked to delete 51 videos, hours and hours of my life, petrol, time and fun.

 

Absolutely no way in the world - sorry.

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I imagine how I would feel if there is some tricky or clever hide in my area that I have been bashing my head in trying to solve and finally getting the ah-ha moment getting the smiley. Later telling the story of my struggles to find GCXXXX to other cachers only to find that someone had posted a YouTube video walkthrough that everyone (other than the hardcore cachers) had been using.

 

Like climbing a mountain to discover an escalator going up and down the other side. Takes the challenge, and mystery out of it.

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True... she has no legal recourse to make you take them down. But she can terminate your membership if they deem that to be the best route. Look... intentionally or not, you stepped on somebody's toes. Man up and lose the video. Be the bigger person here.

 

I'm being asked to delete 51 videos, hours and hours of my life, petrol, time and fun.

 

Absolutely no way in the world - sorry.

 

Not at all! You would still have 51 videos. They just wouldn't be online.

 

But are you really being asked to delete all of them, or just that one? There are many geocaching videos out there that aren't raising any red flags.

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But are you really being asked to delete all of them, or just that one? There are many geocaching videos out there that aren't raising any red flags.

 

"We ask you to consider pulling these videos from the site and refrain from posting additional videos, "

 

Maybe Groundspeak are emailing everyone on youtube...*shrug*

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Hello community.

 

I'm rather confused. I've received this email from a "community relations" at Groundspeak. Regarding my youtube channel.

 

Hi there Sven' date='

 

Groundspeak has been informed that you are posting spoiler videos on YouTube which 'help' cachers find caches. We ask you to consider pulling these videos from the site and refrain from posting additional videos, unless you are the cache owner. The cache owners of many of these cachers are upset by the spoiler videos and we agree that this type of content is not in keeping with the spirit of caching.

 

We would appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sandy

 

Community Relations Manager

[/quote']

 

I'm confused for a few reasons.

 

I have received overwhelming positive response from these videos, I have without a doubt introduced hundreds of people to this sport. You can for yourself view the positive feedback in the comments on the videos, indeed I could provide hundreds of private messages where people thanked me for introducing them to the sport.

 

Surely videos that highlight the very best of our sport is a good thing? They are labelled spoilers....If you don't like it don't watch them?

 

The "community relations" say I am providing "help" so people can find these caches, this is absurd. I do not provide a location or indeed a GC code. Besides my british accent nobody would have any idea where the geocache is geographically. Even when asked in comments or privately I don't give this information away.

 

I'll gladly provide the community relations team with evidence of overwhelming support from the community. There has been to date one negative ninny who doesn't like my videos because I videod his cache.....Well actually I didn't even video his cache and he's not happy!

 

What do you think? There's only a billion other youtube videos out there detailing caches, are they getting emails from Groundspeak too? Or are they just picking on me?

 

I'm basically being asked to delete hours, no days of my life! A lot of hard work has gone into this.

 

What does the community think? Delete or keep? I feel a bit indignant to the whole situation to be honest....

I list geocaching videos on youtube also. I see many videos that have the GC or OX codes. It's none of GroundSpeaks business what I list on youtube. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Edited by Keystone
link to spoiler site removed by moderator

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But are you really being asked to delete all of them, or just that one? There are many geocaching videos out there that aren't raising any red flags.

 

"We ask you to consider pulling these videos from the site and refrain from posting additional videos, "

 

Maybe Groundspeak are emailing everyone on youtube...*shrug*

OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

For the record... what is your Youtube account called?

Edited by knowschad

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I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

Groundspeak is well aware that we have no recourse to insist or penalize you for posting videos about other people's caches on Youtube, which is why my initial email was a request and presented the cache owner's perspective.

 

That's Sandy's word.

 

True... she has no legal recourse to make you take them down. But she can terminate your membership if they deem that to be the best route. Look... intentionally or not, you stepped on somebody's toes. Man up and lose the video. Be the bigger person here.

True... Nazisim at work in America. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r::anibad:

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I don't know who pointed out what in the other thread, but I can assure you that it wasn't Sandy from Groundspeak, and I think that her opinion trumps that of just about anybody else here.

 

Groundspeak is well aware that we have no recourse to insist or penalize you for posting videos about other people's caches on Youtube, which is why my initial email was a request and presented the cache owner's perspective.

 

That's Sandy's word.

 

True... she has no legal recourse to make you take them down. But she can terminate your membership if they deem that to be the best route. Look... intentionally or not, you stepped on somebody's toes. Man up and lose the video. Be the bigger person here.

True... Nazisim at work in America. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r::anibad:

 

<_<

 

What on earth are you talking about? Have you a clue what Naziism was?

 

(Hyperbole and a half) ^3

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

There's a big difference between taking it and receiving it.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

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Ok, I normally stay out of these type of discussions but just had to put my $.02 in here. I have actually seen several of these videos and really don't see what the big deal is. I have gotten some good ideas on putting together some of my own hides from these videos. Many of the videos are highlighting some of the unique and interesting caches they have found but doesn't give away the GC number or any other identifying information. I mean come on....out of the millions of caches out there what are the odds you will actually come across the ones he has in the videos. I assume from his accent he is not in the US but he could be and I have no idea where any of these caches are. I enjoy watching these simply to get ideas on creating my own caches. Now if I suspected or knew that these were anywhere near my area I wouldn't watch them for the simple fact that I like the hunt and the challenge.

 

The other thing is if someone doesn't want to spoil a find for themselves then don't watch any of the spoiler videos on youtube. Also, if someone gets upset because they have struggled to find a cache just to find out that everyone else found it because of the hints or spoilers then who cares. Some people enjoy the challenge of the find and others don't. Who cares how they found it. This isn't a competition people. Stop worrying about what everybody else is doing unless it directly affects you in a negative or harmful way.

 

Now if the cache owner specifically wants you to remove a particular video with their cache in it then I would respect them and remove it but I don't think you should have to remove all of them. I know you have your own caches in the videos too. Thanks for posting them as I love the creative ideas.

 

Ok....I am tired and grumpy and will get off my soap box now. Tomorrow I will be back to being the sweet mommy I normally am. :-)

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

There's a big difference between taking it and receiving it.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

 

He put a link to his youtube channel on his original post. You can get his username from there.

 

Love your profile picture by the way!!

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

There's a big difference between taking it and receiving it.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

 

He put a link to his youtube channel on his original post. You can get his username from there.

 

Love your profile picture by the way!!

 

(yeah, I know that)

 

Thanks about the avatar, mon!!

Edited by knowschad

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

There's a big difference between taking it and receiving it.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

 

He put a link to his youtube channel on his original post. You can get his username from there.

 

Love your profile picture by the way!!

 

(yeah, I know that)

 

Thanks about the avatar, mon!!

 

Yeah...I figured that. :)

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Groundspeak made a request.

 

They followed that request with reassurance that there would be no repercussions if you chose not to take them down.

 

A simple email response to them "I have considered the issue and will / will not be leaving my videos online" would have resolved the entire matter.

 

Bringing this non-issue to the forum is just trolling for attention.

 

And MPH...that's Naziism? Go read your history books before using words you clearly don't comprehend.

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So Sven, I have no idea what you want from us at this point.

 

You have posed a question to the community, asking what we think about removing the videos.

Some have pointed out that it is against the terms of use.

Some have pointed out that they understand why that cacher would be upset about spoilers of his caches.

Most agree they are spoilers.

Most agree you should remove them.

 

Most people (although, true, not all) are in agreement here that it is the sporting thing to do to take them down.

 

I know I wouldn't want videos of my caches up.

 

Saying you won't take them down because of the time you put into them is like spending months planning a bank robbery and then telling people who try to talk you out of it that you've invested too much time to back out no matter who it hurts.

 

This is hurting someone. You don't want to admit it or realize it, but that doesn't make it go away.

I would not be happy about you posting spoilers to my caches. I don't know anyone who would.

 

You made a mistake by not reading the terms of use. You made a mistake by not taking the CO's feelings into consideration, you made a mistake by not asking permission of the cache owner.

 

Now instead of admitting your errors, you want to come in here and have us all tell you "it's all right" and pat you on the head.

 

Then when we don't do that you get mad at us.

 

You've asked our opinion. We've given it.

 

So why did you bother if you don't care???

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OK, I've said my piece. You obviously don't want any opinion that disagrees with you.

 

Not at all, I'm a big boy. I can take it :)

There's a big difference between taking it and receiving it.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

 

Okay, they seem to be wimping out of telling you.

I'll say it,

 

GEOCACHESPOILERS

 

Yes that's the name of the account they are posting videos from that they are claiming are not spoilers.

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I'll probably get raked over the coals for this, but I mostly agree with Sven.

 

Section 4 of the TOS is speaking directly to the use of Groundspeak's site tools. They do not cover what he does on another website.

 

He is also correct that the kind of people that would go to his channel are the same one's that would use the phone a friend network.

 

I can understand not wanting to take it down due to the amount of work put into it. It's NOT like planning a bank robbery. What he is doing is not illegal.

 

However, I find his actions despicable and don't think he should have invested time in this enterprise to begin with. I don't see any difference between this and the sites that post solutions to puzzles. If I were the owner of any of the caches in his videos, I would either archive them or move them around so the spoilers send them on wild goose hunts instead of walking them directly to the cache.

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

Regardless, the whole controversy could be resolved in a very straightforward way: Get permission from the cache owner(s) to publish the video spoilers on YouTube.

 

IMHO, permission should have been obtained prior to publication, but better late than never. And if permission is refused by any owner(s), then you know which video(s) you need to remove.

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The thread was closed on the original discussion so why try to light the fire again in a new thread?

Really. Then I better skip the rest of the thread so I can post my opinion* before this gets locked.

 

For whatever reason Groundspeak has decided to give in to some noisy cache owners, mostly from Europe, who continue to flood the feedback site with request to stop people from posting spoilers. This resulted in the TOU section that has been quoted, and now in Geocaching.com having their customer service representative sending "requests" to people who post spoilers on other websites asking them to stop.

 

Groundspeak needs to learn something about the Internet. They do not own it. People use various website and tools to share information. Groundspeak can remove spoilers from their sites, but trying to control what someone puts on Facebook or YouTube seem to exceed not only their capabilities but also any sensibility of what their responsibility is.

 

I realize that sometimes people use the Internet to do things that may be against the law in one country or another. But I think it's best to let law enforcement handle this. I've nothing against reporting something to law enforcement if you think it's against the law. But as far as I know there is no law against posting spoilers to geocaches.

 

Perhaps one can make an arguement that the spoilers violate the copyrights of the cache owner. In that case the cache owners ought to be the ones sending letters asking for the spoilers to be taken down. I don't see where anyone has appointed Groundspeak their agent to protect copyrights. Groundspeak may feel however that those who asked in the feedback for forum for Groundspeak to do something have, by doing so, appointed Groundspeak as an agent to protect their copyright. To me this seems a far fetch argument. I suppose the recording industry appreciates it when someone surfs the web looking for pirated music to report to the recording companies. But it's still the recording companies that go after the pirates.

 

To the cache owners whose caches are being spoiled. I really have little sympathy. I own some difficult puzzles myself. If someone finds my cache using a "cheat" site, or getting the coordinates from a friend , or brute forcing the puzzle, then good for them. The puzzles are there for those that enjoy solving puzzles and so long as the spoilers are easily avoided, I expect these people will continue to enjoy my puzzles. The others will have gotten another cache to find and since they don't enjoy puzzles, I can't see why I should force them to do a puzzle. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

 

 

*That's for knowschad.

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I'll probably get raked over the coals for this, but I mostly agree with Sven.

Section 4 of the TOS is speaking directly to the use of Groundspeak's site tools.

What did he use to find those caches in the first place? Groundspeak's site tools.

 

When it was first posted, I almost pointed to the CCC thread and said something to the effect of, "we show spoilers there, right? What's the difference?" And then I remembered that those are almost always posted by the hider, and when they haven't been, have almost always been called out by the group.

Edited by knowschad

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

By itself, it does seem that way. However, when you read the entire TOS, you see it says this:

 

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

 

All features, functions and areas of the geocaching.com website, including the Groundspeak Forums (http://forums.Groundspeak.com), are governed by this Agreement and are also subject to such additional terms and conditions as Groundspeak may, from time to time, publicize. To post in the Groundspeak Discussion Forums, you must be 18 years or older, or under the supervision of your parent or legal guardian.

 

You and not Groundspeak, are entirely responsible for all content that you upload, post or otherwise transmit via the Site. You agree not to:

 

<snip a - l>

 

(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner.

 

I am not a lawyer either, but that says to me the section is limiting how you use the site's tools. What they are in essence saying is that we don't just prevent you from posting spoiler pictures on the site. We forbid you posting pictures, text, audio, video, or any other kind of media on our site which contains solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner.

 

BTW, if I read the TOS correctly, the OP has violated the TOS by linking to his spoiler video in Groundspeak's forums. Can't do anything about his Youtube account, but they can darn well lock his account for posting a link to it here.

Edited by GeoBain

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

The "form of media" is text, video, audio, etc. Things like that. It doesn't refer to other websites. GeoBain/Avenois is right.

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The thread was closed on the original discussion so why try to light the fire again in a new thread?

Really. Then I better skip the rest of the thread so I can post my opinion*

 

*That's for knowschad.

 

Noted, and appreciated!!:lol:

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

The "form of media" is text, video, audio, etc. Things like that. It doesn't refer to other websites. GeoBain/Avenois is right.

 

But links are forms of media. So the OP have broken the TOS on at least 2 threads. I would think TPTB have sufficient grounds to lock his account if they wanted.

 

He can create a new one, but he'd be out that $30. :D

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

Regardless, the whole controversy could be resolved in a very straightforward way: Get permission from the cache owner(s) to publish the video spoilers on YouTube.

 

IMHO, permission should have been obtained prior to publication, but better late than never. And if permission is refused by any owner(s), then you know which video(s) you need to remove.

Had Groundspeak's original letter said this, it would have at least agreed with what they say in the TOU. The OP could then keep Groundspeak happy by getting permission from the owners of the videos.

 

But I'm going to assume that what happened here way one or more cache owners complained to Groundspeak and is asking them to do their dirty work. I would think that Sven&Cup may have responded differently if they had gotten email from a cache owner asking them to please take down a video that featured their cache, instead of an email from Groundspeak saying any spoiler video is "not in the spirit of geocaching."

 

It should not be Groundspeak's job to monitor spoilers on sites that are not Groundspeak sites. While TPTB may think spoilers are "not in the sprit of geocaching", spoiler sites are very much in the spirit of Internet games and puzzles. Social media sites, in particular, serve the same function as when any group of friends get together to pool resources to solve a puzzle. They ought to get used to it; as should any cache owner who posts a puzzle cache.

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But I'm going to assume that what happened here way one or more cache owners complained to Groundspeak and is asking them to do their dirty work. I would think that Sven&Cup may have responded differently if they had gotten email from a cache owner asking them to please take down a video that featured their cache, instead of an email from Groundspeak saying any spoiler video is "not in the spirit of geocaching."

I guess you didn't look at the "negative ninny" link?

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But I'm going to assume that what happened here way one or more cache owners complained to Groundspeak and is asking them to do their dirty work. I would think that Sven&Cup may have responded differently if they had gotten email from a cache owner asking them to please take down a video that featured their cache, instead of an email from Groundspeak saying any spoiler video is "not in the spirit of geocaching."

I guess you didn't look at the "negative ninny" link?

I just looked at the thread in the UK forum and see that the cache owner did ask for the spoiler to be taken down before going to Groundspeak.

 

Of course now it just appears to be your routine dispute between two Geocachers where neither would back down. It a shame these two didn't come to an agreement; instead they got one thread locked and they got Groundspeak involved adjudicating a triviality that they had no business getting involved in the first place.

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I would think that Sven&Cup may have responded differently if they had gotten email from a cache owner asking them to please take down a video that featured their cache

Those cache owners think so, too.

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The moderating team has received a number of reports about posts in this thread. Thank you to those community members filing these reports.

 

1. I have removed the link to the spoiler site from the OP and a quotation of the OP. Please don't post this link again. It serves to give more publicity to the site, rather than less attention.

 

2. Other forum guideline violations prior to the time of this post have been dealt with by the moderating team.

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I'll say it,

GEOCACHESPOILERS

 

 

What bugs me is how everyone speaks as if the OP has committed some terrible act should be treated as a public enemy. Why does it matter? No one looses anything if someone finds a cache from a spoiler instead of searching for it themselves. Groundspeak can't control what cachers do on their personal sites. They reserve the right to terminate any account without notice, reason or refund, but if they were to do so in this case I see it as very unnecessary. Is geocaching such serious business that we need to take these measures against someone who isn't harming anyone just to prevent a few people from finding a cache a few minutes faster than they would if they had worked to find it themselves? The OP is only showing some hides that he finds clever and interesting and thinks other people will too. He's not visiting caches, publishing the GC code and coordinates, then providing step by step directions to find them.

Edited by CathyH
Inappropriate content deleted about forum moderator

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too funny - so many strange people on planet earth.... I'm telling my mommy!

Edited by Frank Broughton

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IANAL, but to me, section 4.(m) seems to refer to spoilers published "in any form of media".

 

By itself, it does seem that way. However, when you read the entire TOS, you see it says this:

 

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

 

All features, functions and areas of the geocaching.com website, including the Groundspeak Forums (http://forums.Groundspeak.com), are governed by this Agreement and are also subject to such additional terms and conditions as Groundspeak may, from time to time, publicize. To post in the Groundspeak Discussion Forums, you must be 18 years or older, or under the supervision of your parent or legal guardian.

 

You and not Groundspeak, are entirely responsible for all content that you upload, post or otherwise transmit via the Site. You agree not to:

 

<snip a - l>

 

(m) Publish, in any form of media, the solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner.

 

I am not a lawyer either, but that says to me the section is limiting how you use the site's tools. What they are in essence saying is that we don't just prevent you from posting spoiler pictures on the site. We forbid you posting pictures, text, audio, video, or any other kind of media on our site which contains solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner.

 

BTW, if I read the TOS correctly, the OP has violated the TOS by linking to his spoiler video in Groundspeak's forums. Can't do anything about his Youtube account, but they can darn well lock his account for posting a link to it here.

 

I'm not a lawyer either, but to me, ANY FORM OF MEDIA means, any form of media, and includes Utube.

 

I'd love to hear Groundspeaks take on this.

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So Sven, I have no idea what you want from us at this point.

This is a discussion forum, I want a discussion :)

You made a mistake by not reading the terms of use.

 

This has been extensively covered, from groundspeaks own mouth it's not against the TOS to post spoiler videos on youtube.

 

Did you miss my question about your Youtube account name?

Okay, they seem to be wimping out of telling you.

I'll say it,

 

GEOCACHESPOILERS

 

Yes that's the name of the account they are posting videos from that they are claiming are not spoilers.

 

No, I was sleeping, it was late/early here in the UK.

 

I've never once claimed these are not spoilers. That's exactly what they are, and clearly labelled.

 

BTW, if I read the TOS correctly, the OP has violated the TOS by linking to his spoiler video in Groundspeak's forums. Can't do anything about his Youtube account, but they can darn well lock his account for posting a link to it here.

 

But links are forms of media. So the OP have broken the TOS on at least 2 threads. I would think TPTB have sufficient grounds to lock his account if they wanted.

 

He can create a new one, but he'd be out that $30. :D

 

It says it is against the TOS for posting links /without permission/. I have permission for everything I've posted :)

 

2. Other forum guideline violations prior to the time of this post have been dealt with by the moderating team.

 

Having read the guidelines I cannot find any violations I've committed? *shrug*

Edited by Sven&Cup

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