Muggled [by the Police]

[+Cache U Nutter]

Today I went out caching in Surrey and the 'Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy' cache was not as per the cache name.

Surrey Police had muggled the cache [an ammo box] - leaving only a note, crime ref no. and phone number.

They claimed on the note that the container was 'Inappropriate'.

Do they have the authority to do this ? and will this cast some doubt on the future suitability of ammo boxes for caces in the future ?

I imagine that a member of the public must have contacted the Boys in Blue and they felt obliged to do something but I would feel that the box should be replaced if it was my cache.

What do you think ?

Cache owner has of course been informed.

[+Dorsetgal & GeoDog]

Wow!

 

I found a micro in London once that the Bobbies had found and signed but had the good grace to replace as found.

[+drsolly]

Today I went out caching in Surrey and the 'Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy' cache was not as per the cache name.

Surrey Police had muggled the cache [an ammo box] - leaving only a note, crime ref no. and phone number.

They claimed on the note that the container was 'Inappropriate'.

 

 

I am offended by the word "inappropriate", and would prefer that some alternative be found.

[+Cache U Nutter]

I should add that the cache was not in an urban area, it was in the middle of woodland, adjacent to a public footpath.

Nearest housing approx 900m away.

[+Simply Paul]

Do we know if it was correctly marked on the outside as a geocache, or were all the military markings still on it, giving the impression that it's full of explosive ammunition?

[+Stokiecachers]

One main question, never mind it being marked 'Inappropriate' is - do the Police actually know what Geocaching is?

 

You have to ask yourself - their job is to observe and investigate anything suspicious and probably view geocaching as a nuisance, hence some requests by forces and councils not to place caches in certain areas of the country.

 

What do you think an officer sees when we are out geocaching - someone with either a mobile phone or handheld GPS, looking and putting their hands into places seeking a cache, looking inside bushes, in trees, inside holes in walls etc - all very odd looking compared to what ordinary members of the public do.

 

But - the next question is - how do we spread the word of 'geocaching is just harmless fun' to all forces throughout the UK - because this could also stir up a hornets next of "do we want this happening in our area?" and then more and more problems.

 

I've spoken to my Community Officer at a Residents Forum and he knows what it is and just says "we turn a blind eye to it as long as it doesn't cause a problem", especially as he knows I've got loads of caches spread throughout the area he patrols.

 

Does anyone else have any info or comments from their local force about geocaching - I'd be interested to hear them and have them shared for others.

 

Leigh.

Stoke on Trent.

[dodgydaved]

After the Wetherby incident I contacted my local TVP neighbourhood watch liaison officer.

 

His reply was that his son was a cacher and certainly in my part of leafy SEBerks the pastime in known.

[+Lonewolf_Geocaching]

I would like to see the crime ref number checked against records. The story is too vague to determine what happened. It would be nice to all the information. Just because one local officer knows about geocaching does not imply that they all know. So the details of what brought them here would be useful.

 

It be worth flagging this up with a reviewer in you area. To check if this is because of this one cache or a new local policy by the local police force in question.

[+sTeamTraen]

Presumably a nice, sturdy ammo box was "inappropriate" because it was once used to store munitions. It's totally illogical - like when the bomb disposal people blow things up with blinking LEDs on them because "it looks like a bomb" - meaning, a movie bomb.

 

Interesting that they left a crime number. I wonder what the crime was? Does the CO dare phone to ask?

 

That said, it's important to remove the markings from ammo boxes. I can imagine someone taking fright at "NATO FRAGMENTATION GRENADES" in huge yellow letters, and not seeing the tiny white Dymo saying "Contents Harmless".

[+Cache U Nutter]

Do we know if it was correctly marked on the outside as a geocache, or were all the military markings still on it, giving the impression that it's full of explosive ammunition?

Not sure if there were any markings[as it had been muggled !

The cache is here :

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=29f893ad-1e16-4856-950d-2176363df3f0

Edited August 29, 2011 by Cache U Nutter

[+drsolly]

I've spoken to my Community Officer at a Residents Forum and he knows what it is and just says "we turn a blind eye to it as long as it doesn't cause a problem", especially as he knows I've got loads of caches spread throughout the area he patrols.

 

Does he turn a blind eye to me walking down a public footpath? Does he turn a blind eye to me sitting on a public bench eating a sandwich? Does he turn a blind eye to me writing notes on a piece of paper?

 

I'm quite offended at this turn of phrase. You turn a blind eye to something that shouldn't be happening, but you'll let it go this time; for example, someone dropping a cigarette packet in the gutter. Could I suggest that you correct him on this?

[+Bradfordgull]

It looks like we are going to re-open the Weatherby debate again here as to Police and Geocaching. I know that the GAGB are working hard with the Police to raise the awareness of Geocaching amongst the different forces in the UK. It sounds like from this cache it was not in a particularly sensitive area either. The key especially with Ammo cans is to make sure they are correctly marked up with the Geocaching stickers. I expect some passerby has seen the Ammo box and was concerned by its look and potential contents and reported it to the police who removed it. If it was me I would replace the cache with another container or move it to a nearby location and see what happens. I would not bother calling the police and quoting the crime reference number if it was me as then you could end up having a trip to the Police station and we don't want another cacher with a criminal record as what happened in the Weatherby! I am sure the good work will continue with the GAGB to work with the police and the local forces. I work for the railway and we have a British Transport Police Station at the station I work. I have spoken to a number of offices at the station with regards to Geocaching. It turns out that they have challenged a few people at railway stations looking for sidetracked caches so now a lot of them at my station and surrounding stations know where they are and what people will be searching for outside of stations and just to challenge them and if they say Geocaching they know what it is and will let them get on with their search instead of taking them to task and telling them to leave the area around the station!

[+Deepdiggingmole]

I read this and was surprised by the fact that the ammo box wasn't blown up - they did it at Wetherby where by all accounts it was made known what the container was and what it contained before they blew it up and they continued to do so - it would seem that the Surrey police have found the container and instead of calling out the MOD, they picked it up and took it to the station - what if it had been a real explosive !!!!!!

Does it suggest that the container was 'appropriately' marked and they just decided it was harmless and chose to remove it for the heck of it

Oh and there wont be a crime report number - there is no crime, it would be an incident number - though if it is a crime report I would want to know what this is classified as. It would put every cache in Surrey in jeopardy of being considered an offence - If no one has challenged the local police on this (though this would ideally be the cache owner) I would suggest this needs to be done

to claim the property back and advise that if it isnt appropriately marked, it would be as per GAGB guidelines following Wetherby - they can not stop the item being placed if done so with the appropriate permissions as all caches are

 

my rant over

[+NattyBooshka]

Hehe... All caches are most certainly not placed with permissions... To assume they are is to be a little gullible, no offence. Going finding them, I can see how the words have been carefully selected to avoid the reviewer "radar", and I know to 3 or 4 that have been removed at landowner request once they found out about them, in the last few weeks.

 

As for crime reference numbers, spot on... Incident numbers yes, not crime ones. The police will not issue a crime reference number until it is proven there has been crime committed for small stuff... The reason? Well, amongst other things... These numbers are counted... Rural Derbyshire could suddenly become a high crime area... Sending house prices plummeting. Of course our boys in blue only really care about doing their job well... And not having crime levels rise.

 

Crime reference numbers and incident numbers are akin to government unemployment figures being compared to those totally dependant on benefits.

Edited August 29, 2011 by NattyBooshka

[+Hawkins2.5]

Hmm, all sounds a bit fishy to me. Is it certain the note was from the police and not just a rather elaborate prank?

[+Deepdiggingmole]

Hehe... All caches are most certainly not placed with permissions... To assume they are is to be a little gullible, no offence. Going finding them, I can see how the words have been carefully selected to avoid the reviewer "radar", and I know to 3 or 4 that have been removed at landowner request once they found out about them, in the last few weeks.

 

As for crime reference numbers, spot on... Incident numbers yes, not crime ones. The police will not issue a crime reference number until it is proven there has been crime committed for small stuff... The reason? Well, amongst other things... These numbers are counted... Rural Derbyshire could suddenly become a high crime area... Sending house prices plummeting. Of course our boys in blue only really care about doing their job well... And not having crime levels rise.

 

Crime reference numbers and incident numbers are akin to government unemployment figures being compared to those totally dependant on benefits.

 

It was said with tongue in cheek

also sadly I am well aware that crime report numbers are issued prior to the facts being established (in Kent they do) and only after an initial investigation are they then 'no-crimed' if it shown to be the case - but I am also aware that different police forces have different policies on how reports are classified from the word go.

[+thehalibutkid]

A large military style box a few hundred meters from a hospital. Actually I can kinda see why the Police might find it "inappropriate".

[+Loony Londo]

Perhaps some one other than the cache owner should make a freedom of information request to see the police records on this "incident"?

[+Cache U Nutter]

I have just recieved an email from a Surrey cacher who is also a Surrey Policeman. He wishes to remain anonomous but is prepared to look into the matter further. He has other geocachers in his division too !

I can confirm that the note was genuine and the number was a ICAD/Crime Reference No.

Still not heard from the owner yet- may get a suprise on return from holiday !

Will keep you informed

[+Babsbaby]

Two things from me.

 

1. I once signed a log immediately following a local police officer who obviously knew about the cache and had no problem with it. (A Church Micro).

 

2. I wish it had been the police that nicked an ammo box of mine a couple of years ago. I'd have been able to go to the station and claim my 'stolen' property.

[+Palujia]

Without wishing to stir up another can of worms (to nicely mix metaphors) This is one of the reasons that the GAGB has got involved in trying to liaise with various Police Forces, via ACPO, to ensure that police on the ground are aware of Geocaching and what it involves. I am sure that there are many Police Officers out there who know about caching and some actually caching themselves. As a retired Police Officer, and then 10 years as a Police Control Room Supervisor I have been involved in a lot of "suspicious" incidents concerning packages left in unusual places. Certainly within our force there were fairly rigid criteria for dealing with such incidents. These were primarily concerned with the safety of all (officers and civilians alike) The premise being "Better Safe than Sorry",in this day and age no one can be blamed for taking a conservative view of things. I am also aware of locations, types of containers and markings thereon. But again, safety being the main concern, who can critise an Officer for being, perhaps, over-zealous in his approach to what he may think is a "sus" container *ammo box*, perhaps. As one of the organisations concerned with supporting caching and cachers in the UK, GAGB is trying to address these problems with guidelines for putting out caches, markings etc., and liaising with Police re security etc., landowners for permissions and other caching organisations to try and assist all who are involved with caching. Not trying to tread on toes, or "laying down the law" (as some would have it). As all are aware, there are loads of cachers out there who do not read or participate in forums and put out caches without reference to land owners and, some without thought, to the prevalent "security" issues. These are the cachers we all need to reach and try to ensure that they are aware of the consequences. My real nightmare is that one day, someone with "malice aforthought" is going to put a device in a clearly marked geocache - does not bear thinking about !!!. In conclusion, all police actions are recorded and rigourously scrutinised these days, so anyone directly involved in any police incident can be sure that information regarding such incidents can be made available if required

[+Cache U Nutter]

Without wishing to stir up another can of worms (to nicely mix metaphors) This is one of the reasons that the GAGB has got involved in trying to liaise with various Police Forces, via ACPO, to ensure that police on the ground are aware of Geocaching and what it involves. I am sure that there are many Police Officers out there who know about caching and some actually caching themselves. As a retired Police Officer, and then 10 years as a Police Control Room Supervisor I have been involved in a lot of "suspicious" incidents concerning packages left in unusual places. Certainly within our force there were fairly rigid criteria for dealing with such incidents. These were primarily concerned with the safety of all (officers and civilians alike) The premise being "Better Safe than Sorry",in this day and age no one can be blamed for taking a conservative view of things. I am also aware of locations, types of containers and markings thereon. But again, safety being the main concern, who can critise an Officer for being, perhaps, over-zealous in his approach to what he may think is a "sus" container *ammo box*, perhaps. As one of the organisations concerned with supporting caching and cachers in the UK, GAGB is trying to address these problems with guidelines for putting out caches, markings etc., and liaising with Police re security etc., landowners for permissions and other caching organisations to try and assist all who are involved with caching. Not trying to tread on toes, or "laying down the law" (as some would have it). As all are aware, there are loads of cachers out there who do not read or participate in forums and put out caches without reference to land owners and, some without thought, to the prevalent "security" issues. These are the cachers we all need to reach and try to ensure that they are aware of the consequences. My real nightmare is that one day, someone with "malice aforthought" is going to put a device in a clearly marked geocache - does not bear thinking about !!!. In conclusion, all police actions are recorded and rigourously scrutinised these days, so anyone directly involved in any police incident can be sure that information regarding such incidents can be made available if required

I am happy to say that everything that Palujia says is relevent to this situation as is indicated by the email message I recieved from my cacher / Policeman who wishes to remain 'under cover'

 

"Had a good look at the ICAD after dropping you the quick e-mail from work last night -

 

The cache was spotted by a family out walking, near a tree stump. On the box was a picture of a gun, and "M13" written on the side. The family did not touch it, but called the Police, and directed the officer to it.

From reading the log, it appears the officer also believed it contained ammunition, so opened it to check. They saw it contained other items (Not listed what on the log), but the officer described it as a "Keepsake box". They decided to take it to Reigate police station to stop further calls from members of the public, and left a note so the owner would find it, and they could call in to collect it.

There is no crime number on the ICAD, and the log has been closed, so there will be no action taken against the owner if they decide to collect the cache.

I haven't seen the box myself, as I do not cover Reigate, but from reading the log it appears that the military markings were still displayed fully. I also don't know if there was a stash card inside the cache, explaining what it was - maybe if there was one, the officer didn't see it.

 

Hope this explains what has happened - I will also send this to the cache owner".

I hope that this is a lesson to ensure that cache boxes are clearly marked - I will certainly go back and check my ammo boxes which were placed a few years back.

[+Lonewolf_Geocaching]

I would like to see the crime ref number checked against records. The story is too vague to determine what happened. It would be nice to all the information. Just because one local officer knows about geocaching does not imply that they all know. So the details of what brought them here would be useful.

 

It be worth flagging this up with a reviewer in you area. To check if this is because of this one cache or a new local policy by the local police force in question.

I am sure that there are many Police Officers out there who know about caching and some actually caching themselves. As a retired Police Officer, and then 10 years as a Police Control Room Supervisor I have been involved in a lot of "suspicious" incidents concerning packages left in unusual places............ Certainly within our force there were fairly rigid criteria for dealing with such incidents.............. In conclusion, all police actions are recorded and rigourously scrutinised these days, so anyone directly involved in any police incident can be sure that information regarding such incidents can be made available if required

There lies the truth in the details. Without good communication. All i see here is another load of wild speculation about how the police, legal system and MOD work. Whilst nobody has any facts surrounding the case. If the note finder or CO does not want to contact the police then please contact the GAGB for a very diplomatic approach. The fact that a note was left means nothing without the background story.....

 

We need to know if this is a local misunderstanding

 

or

 

A new local police SOP

 

or

 

"Fight Club"

I am happy to say that everything that Palujia says is relevent to this situation as is indicated by the email message I recieved from my cacher / Policeman who wishes to remain 'under cover'

 

"Had a good look at the ICAD after dropping you the quick e-mail from work last night -

 

The cache was spotted by a family out walking, near a tree stump. On the box was a picture of a gun, and "M13" written on the side. The family did not touch it, but called the Police, and directed the officer to it.

From reading the log, it appears the officer also believed it contained ammunition, so opened it to check. They saw it contained other items (Not listed what on the log), but the officer described it as a "Keepsake box". They decided to take it to Reigate police station to stop further calls from members of the public, and left a note so the owner would find it, and they could call in to collect it.

There is no crime number on the ICAD, and the log has been closed, so there will be no action taken against the owner if they decide to collect the cache.

I haven't seen the box myself, as I do not cover Reigate, but from reading the log it appears that the military markings were still displayed fully. I also don't know if there was a stash card inside the cache, explaining what it was - maybe if there was one, the officer didn't see it.

 

Hope this explains what has happened - I will also send this to the cache owner".

I hope that this is a lesson to ensure that cache boxes are clearly marked - I will certainly go back and check my ammo boxes which were placed a few years back.

 

There we go folks case closed. Problem solved. Easy as that.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lonewolf_Geocaching

[+Palujia]

Thanks - let's hope the lid is back on this can of worms ! As the Yoga mantra goes - take long slow clearing breath and clear mind before taking action - We all want to enjoy caching, the joy of the fresh air, the navigation, the hunt and the find ! We should all concentrate on that!

happy (and safe!) caching to all

[Narcosynthesis]

Case closed.

 

If you are going to use a container formerly used for housing dangerous items such as munitions, make sure that you remove any such markings and have it clearly labelled as a geocache so it won't be mistakenly thought to be full of ammunition (which when found in the wild, in an unknown condition, you can forgive hte police for being a bit apprehensive...)

[patdhill]

Case closed.

 

If you are going to use a container formerly used for housing dangerous items such as munitions, make sure that you remove any such markings and have it clearly labelled as a geocache so it won't be mistakenly thought to be full of ammunition (which when found in the wild, in an unknown condition, you can forgive hte police for being a bit apprehensive...)

Hope Al-Qaeda don't read that or they'll just be sticking geocaching labels on things hoping the police will just walk on by ;-)