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So this alleged comment got me to thinking about the future of geocaching...

 

Hearsay: Someone posted that Jeremy told her at the Block Party that Challenges were released at about 50% of what he envisioned they would become, and he wants actual experience with them and the community's input to guide the rest of the feature and function development effort.

So if that's the case don't judge Challenges by what they are today but by what they might become.

 

I can easily see them becoming a replacement for today's geocaches.

 

Will geocaching become a containerless game?

 

Location is the thing, right?

 

Could it be that creating a listing with coordinates which take people to an interesting location where they can see/enjoy/learn something is the goal, and finding something hidden there is secondary to the experience?

 

The advent of Challenges and the moves by Groundspeak to adopt more social media features have me wondering if we're not about to see a major shift in how this game is played.

 

Geocaches are a lot of trouble. Expensive to build and hide, they need adequate permission, they need maintenance, they are a source of constant turmoil (who signed it, who logged it, who cheated, yada yada). A whole cadre of volunteers is required to review them, allow them to be listed or deny their listing, work with land owners, work with cache owners, resolve all sorts of issues. An unfortunate number of people want to hide a cache but don't want to invest time/money/effort or creativity and thus film cans in parking lots abound. You can bet that landowners and police would a lot rather you went somewhere and took a picture than go there and hide something or root around looking for something.

 

In a word geocaches are messy. It could be that for many people the overall messiness overwhelms the joy value of hiding/finding a hidden container.

 

Now come Challenges, which have the potential to eliminate all of that. You get the same experience of going somewhere to see/enjoy/learn with none of the mess of having a container there.

 

Now I know that's radical, but it's worth considering. I love geocaching for all the location/experience factors but actually finding the cache has always been secondary to the overall experience. I could hunt location-based Challenges and be perfectly happy with the game...after all the silliness of stupid Challenges dies down they are just like virts and locationless and waymarks and benchmarks, none of which have containers either.

 

In trying to figure out where Challenges will lead the game this to me seems a real possibility...the language of location, not containers.

 

Geocaching without the mess and control issues. I think I like it! B)

 

Caveat: Yes the question is sort of tongue-in-cheek, I don't see containers going away completely, where would we put all our trackables and broken McToys? :D Still, I think it is very possible if not likely that Challenges will replace a large number of containers and thus the question is worth considering.

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I think there are other applications and sites that do the whole location only game better than challenges do. I can't see Groundspeak fully moving that direction. In the end this is a business. It's the pay check. Right now it's a big fish in a little tiny pond as far as geocaching is concerned. If it moves over to just location based without containers they lost what makes them unique and suddenly become a tiny little minnow in the ocean. There goes the paychecks they rely on for a living.

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I hope not. I like finding a container. To me it feels like someone left me a gift. Sounds weird, I know. But after hiking a while, and then find the exact spot where the container is seems like I was invited there and am not alone. THere's a satisfaction I get finding something physical that others have touched that I don't get with an earthcache or virtual.

 

I like earthcaches and virtuals a lot too. They have their place. But I enjoy finding physical hidden treasure probably a bit more. Seems much more personal to me.

 

The fact that physical caches take time, money, work and constant attention make them personal, and possibly better quality.

 

I enjoy owning physical caches. I like maintaining them. It's neat to find weather resistant containers. I like reading actual signifies and comments in my log books. I like seeing peoples had writing. It is personal.

 

Does that make any sense? Lol

Edited by SeekerOfTheWay
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Now come Challenges, which have the potential to eliminate all of that. You get the same experience of going somewhere to see/enjoy/learn with none of the mess of having a container there.

The real fun in geocaching is to find the container. Sure I have enjoyed the 70 or so virt/earthcaches I have done but they fall short in comparing them to a mediocre cache. I doubt challenges will replace caches. (I have noticed there weren't many caches published in the state but I'll contribute that to the site being down and people being out at events).

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where would we put all our trackables and broken McToys? biggrin.gif

 

I can't help with the broken McToys, but trackables could be virtualized quite easily. Very similar to a souvenir that would be passed from profile to profile, logging its virtual mileage via the current holder's home coordinates.

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Back when virtuals were allowed and before the wow factor was implemented they were still the overwhelming minority of caches. Geocachers generally want to find geocaches.

 

There is something about finding that container, whether it's an ammo box or Bison cylinder, that makes this sport what it is. I personally geocache largely for the cool places the sport brings me, but without the container I may as well just buy a gudebook.

Edited by briansnat
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Seems like there would be an audience for all types of caches. I prefer containers because it's fun to go somewhere I haven't been and be able to bullseye a location miles away. I may be wrong here, but aren't challenges similar to Waymarking?

Looks to me like they are exactly like waymarks, without the overhead and headaches.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I'll do some challenges, sure, just like I do earthcaches. But I still like the hunt, that is a large part of the appeal to me. That 'I found it' moment is bliss to me, it is the real challenge.

 

Unfortunately, if the container aspect dwindles too much, I might have to go look at those other sites.

 

I was thinking the other day about when to create a challenge (which I call virtual below), vs a cache, vs an earthcache, vs even a waymark.

It is something of a flowchart, but I still can't quite prioritize it all:

 

Are you allowed to put a container in this area? If yes, consider a cache. If not, consider a virtual.

Are you trying to show someone something special? If yes, consider a virtual, if allowed, consider a cache.

Would you like the person to do a particular activity at this location? If so, consider a virtual.

Is there geology to learn at this location? If so, consider an earthcache.

Is there other science, art, or culture to learn at this location? If so consider a cache if allowed, or a virtual.

Is this part of a set you would like to document? If so, consider a Waymarking category.

Is the site commercial in nature, or has admission? If so, consider a virtual.

Is there an environmental impact to the area, that searching for a cache would damage? If so, consider a virtual.

If a virtual would also cause an environmental impact, then sorry, don't put either.

Is the location more general (such as the Eiffel Tower, or Mount Fuji, or Niagara Falls) or very specific (such as the particular coordinates for a particular sign)? If more general, then a virtual is probably better. If specific, then maybe an offset multi or small cache (if allowed) is appropriate.

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One thing that feeds into the question is how many times I have explained geocaching only to see the listeners eyes glaze over and lose interest when explaining the container hunt comes in.

 

Sure, there are what, 5 million geocachers is I think the number I have heard?

 

What if the whole search-for-the-container thing is what turns so many people off to our game?

 

What if Challenges bring in more Premium Members than geocaches do? Instead of a game of hide-and-seek geocaching becomes a guidebook to the world around you? I'm thinking Groundspeak could open itself to everyone who goes outside instead of the limited pool of us who like hunting geocaches. I would pay for Premium Membership to get a PQ of Challenges near me, and I suspect a lot of people who don't currently geocache would too!

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Then it's what Brian said, I'll just get a guidebook.

That is limited and out of date the moment it is printed or posted online.

 

What if you could get a guidebook that is always current and ever-changing?

 

That would be a PQ of Challenges!

 

Well, my PQ's are always out of date too it seems.

I don't have a fancy phone.

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LOL, my PQs are out of date also. That's funny. In any case, old guidebook always have the main landmarks. I buy updated guidebook and you can get them on Kindle now too.

 

I see what you're saying. But if geocaching went all virtual or challenges, I don't think I'd continue.

 

I would also stop eating so much peanut better. :)

Edited by SeekerOfTheWay
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I'll do some challenges, sure, just like I do earthcaches. But I still like the hunt, that is a large part of the appeal to me. That 'I found it' moment is bliss to me, it is the real challenge.

 

Unfortunately, if the container aspect dwindles too much, I might have to go look at those other sites.

 

I was thinking the other day about when to create a challenge (which I call virtual below), vs a cache, vs an earthcache, vs even a waymark.

It is something of a flowchart, but I still can't quite prioritize it all:

 

Are you allowed to put a container in this area? If yes, consider a cache. If not, consider a virtual.

Are you trying to show someone something special? If yes, consider a virtual, if allowed, consider a cache.

Would you like the person to do a particular activity at this location? If so, consider a virtual.

Is there geology to learn at this location? If so, consider an earthcache.

Is there other science, art, or culture to learn at this location? If so consider a cache if allowed, or a virtual.

Is this part of a set you would like to document? If so, consider a Waymarking category.

Is the site commercial in nature, or has admission? If so, consider a virtual.

Is there an environmental impact to the area, that searching for a cache would damage? If so, consider a virtual.

If a virtual would also cause an environmental impact, then sorry, don't put either.

Is the location more general (such as the Eiffel Tower, or Mount Fuji, or Niagara Falls) or very specific (such as the particular coordinates for a particular sign)? If more general, then a virtual is probably better. If specific, then maybe an offset multi or small cache (if allowed) is appropriate.

Wow, that's a lot of questions and opportunity for error and disagreement! Not to mention the tremendous overhead required to provide all of those variations.

 

What if there were only one question - Do I know of a place I would like to attract others to? If yes, create a Challenge.

 

End of process. :blink:

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I think if that were the case, you would see a dramatic decline in the audience, and a fairly rapid rise of a competing site that continued with the traditional model.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current "competing sites" all support virtual caches and some locationless caches. The vast majority of physical caches are still to be found over here and the vast majority of cachers aren't getting caught up in some emotional drama-fest and running off to other sites.

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I think if that were the case, you would see a dramatic decline in the audience, and a fairly rapid rise of a competing site that continued with the traditional model.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current "competing sites" all support virtual caches and some locationless caches. The vast majority of physical caches are still to be found over here and the vast majority of cachers aren't getting caught up in some emotional drama-fest and running off to other sites.

True, but the key to that is the phrase "vast majority of cachers". Those of us who are already geocachers are pretty loyal to this site, but we're only a fraction of the population. Virtuals (because I hate the name Challenges) in the form of a PQ, a guidebook to the world as it were, might very well draw a much larger crowd. That other sites aren't succeeding may just be a factor of how they have presented or supported them, or the fact that they have almost no audience yet established. Combine virtuals with some Facebook-like features and they may explode in popularity far beyond the pool of us geocachers.

 

As I said earlier, geocaches in their current form are messy, expensive to list and maintain, and appeal to a narrow audience. Virtuals are FAR less expensive, you don't need a big staff of programmers to publish them. I see this as Pandora's Box opened.

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Then it's what Brian said, I'll just get a guidebook.

That is limited and out of date the moment it is printed or posted online.

 

What if you could get a guidebook that is always current and ever-changing?

 

That would be a PQ of Challenges!

The virtuals that I liked showed me places of historical interest/significance or great spots in nature whether it be a view, a geological feature, or something else. Those things don't change much and new ones aren't created all that often so a guidebook just might work for me.

 

I don't think geocaching will become a containerless game. As others have said, finding the container is too much a part of the game for too many people. If it does I guess I'll find another hobby.

I hope the new challenge things (I can't call them caches, at least not yet) become more like the old virtuals. Groundspeak obviously didn't explain it well enough and now they have to get control of it. It seems to me as if they are pursuing a new audience (like they did with whymarking) but are trying to use the large number of geocachers to jump start challenges when they might be better off just pursuing a new audience on a new website and leaving us out of it.

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Further, I see Challenges virtuals

Not to detour this thread, but I tried to explain virtual caches to my lunch group one day, and I was unable to get beyond the word "virtual cache" because of the laughter and teasing. To this day, they still rib me about "virtual caches" once in a while.
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I don't see challenges as replacing physical caches, but it could "lighten the load" so to speak. Suppose somebody wants to highlight their favorite restaurant: instead of placing a micro in the parking lot and going back and forth with the reviewer three times over the wording of their listing, they just list a challenge. Then the community gets to decide if it's a good one or not. Maybe some of the cache owners that don't/can't do maintenance will list challenges instead, thereby reducing the number of broken or missing caches. The serious cache owners will always want to place and maintain physical caches, but challenges offer a good option to people who are more casual about caching.

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Further, I see Challenges virtuals as a service Groundspeak could sell to map publishers. Like Points Of Interest you put in a coordinate into Street Atlas or MapQuest and see all the virts within x number of miles or along a route.

 

And we get to create this database for them. No wonder we don't get to own our own challenges. It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

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Further, I see Challenges virtuals

Not to detour this thread, but I tried to explain virtual caches to my lunch group one day, and I was unable to get beyond the word "virtual cache" because of the laughter and teasing. To this day, they still rib me about "virtual caches" once in a while.

 

Hmmn. They sound a bit narrow minded. Is it just geocaching or does it show up in other topics as well?

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If geocaching went all virtual or challenges, I don't think I'd continue.

 

I would also stop eating so much peanut better. :)

A few people probably would rather have mostly the scenic spots, without bothering with containers. Sometimes I'll arrive in a great park, enjoying the view, and kind of dread having to then dive into the greenbriar, and get ticks and poison ivy. But the dirt is what makes it an adventure.

 

Think of what Waymarking has become, and that's where I see Challenges in a couple of years. Yeah, I know... "just me wait and see"...

 

But I was at a birthday party this weekend. There was a Challenge. "Stand with your cake and we'll take a picture". There was a container. "Open your present". Guess if there was any difference in enthusiasm between those.

Edited by kunarion
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I am on the side that wishes they would make these count the same as a benchmark. I personally love looking for a cache. I hate when I get a DNF but if i come back and find the cache it is very rewarding. Yes I enjoy finding the places. I take pictures just about everywhere I go. But I love the creativity too. South of my location is a state park called Paul Grist. It has about 100 caches in that park. The vast majority of them were hidden by a guy named woodnutt. I believe him to be the best hider I have seen. Each of these caches are off a little bit from the trails that run through the park. Every cache is hidden differently and most are very creative hides. Each time I got to a location I was so pumped about figuring out where he hid it that time. I was unable to solve 4 of the caches when I was there and I did about 42 in the park. I still think about each of those and wonder where i went wrong. And thinking back many of those caches were not at beautiful breathtaking spots. Some were. Some were great views of the lake or even in the lake. But many were just on hills or in the woods. I felt like I earned some with those. With the challenges it just seems like there are too many challenges that will drive down caching. Make it seem bland. I know that many will argue park and grabs and yes i don't care much for them either but you did sign something. Even the old virtuals, most of the ones i have found required you to read a historical marker that many people pass by and have probably never read. you can verify you were there by sending the message to the owner answering some simple questions that verify the info. For me let the challenges b e on here but not count toward the total.

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Not to detour this thread, but I tried to explain virtual caches to my lunch group one day, and I was unable to get beyond the word "virtual cache" because of the laughter and teasing. To this day, they still rib me about "virtual caches" once in a while.

 

Oh I'm not surprised :lol:

 

I remember one moment in some pub, a group of people sitting together, some of them cachers and some non-cachers. Eventually the topic of geocaching came up, and one muggle had to ask "geocaching? What's that?" So this one girl starts off explaining with "oh it's so much fun! Some of them are earthcaches ..." and I immediately thought: How's that gonna tell them what geocaching is?

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Think of what Waymarking has become, and that's where I see Challenges in a couple of years.

I think the new Challenges virtuals will be everything Waymarking could have become without the huge management structure and difficult interface.

I can't wait til Challenges get somehow integrated into Geocaching (or I dread that, not sure which). Take the Waymarking randmomness of a million McDonalds, on a completely separate site, yet shove each find in your face conveniently on Geocaching.com, and VIOLA! ...you have Challenges.

 

exemplify the KISS

Oh man, you just HAD to bring up THAT one again, huh? :rolleyes:

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Further, I see Challenges virtuals

Not to detour this thread, but I tried to explain virtual caches to my lunch group one day, and I was unable to get beyond the word "virtual cache" because of the laughter and teasing. To this day, they still rib me about "virtual caches" once in a while.

 

Hmmn. They sound a bit narrow minded. Is it just geocaching or does it show up in other topics as well?

 

Just virtual caches. They "get" geocaching. These are programming folks who know all about virtual memory, virtual drives, etc. To them. a virtual cache is just an imaginary cache.

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Just virtual caches. They "get" geocaching. These are programming folks who know all about virtual memory, virtual drives, etc. To them. a virtual cache is just an imaginary cache.

 

But that seems to be just an issue of the term virtual cache and not the concept behind it. Replace virtual cache by containerless cache and the idea remains the same and it is not a longer funny.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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Seems to me that Challenges are a good way to fill in the gaps. We have areas like National parks that don't want Geocaches in the. Or in areas that a physical cache could never be placed or last. Challenges give us the opportunity to highlight Great outdoor locations in these areas that the physical caches are not allowed. If Challenges can be limited to these areas and not overwhelm areas that already have some great caches in them i think they will have a future.

 

I also think a challenge is a good way to get people out to more remote caches. Giving them a sort of pre planned trip to follow to reach that hard to get to and seldom visited remote cache as the final goal. They should never replace the physical caches. If ever GS made that kind of a move Opencaching would have a huge boost in there numbers.

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I remember one moment in some pub, a group of people sitting together, some of them cachers and some non-cachers. Eventually the topic of geocaching came up, and one muggle had to ask "geocaching? What's that?" So this one girl starts off explaining with "oh it's so much fun! Some of them are earthcaches ..." and I immediately thought: How's that gonna tell them what geocaching is?

 

I do not see any issue with starting like that. Of course, it is more systematic to start with there are caches with containers and containerless caches and that some cachers only like caches with containers, in particular those cachers who enjoy the process of searching and finding and for whom the location is secondary. For cachers like me for whom the location and the experience on the way to the location comes first and then long comes nothing, the difference between caches with and without containers is not that large. Actually. an Earthcache somewhere in the woods some my personal idea of geocaching much closer than a powertrail along a boring road or drive in guard rail caches as my personal concept of geocaching somehow is based on locations that are wort to be visited also without no cache being there.

 

Cezanne

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IMO Geocaching is all about the location AND the container. If you can't get to the container and log it then you don't get credit. Muggles or a rock slide don't keep many people form going the extra distance with a virtual. I say let GeoFake.com or SimCache.com launch and compete with the Foursquare sort of sites that already exist and let's keep Geocaching.com about finding a physical container hidden someplace easy (1/1) or someplace insane (5/5).

 

One way or another things will probalby work out :) My preference is to have this hobby continue be on GC.com and be at least as good as it has been the last 10 years.

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Further, I see Challenges virtuals

Not to detour this thread, but I tried to explain virtual caches to my lunch group one day, and I was unable to get beyond the word "virtual cache" because of the laughter and teasing. To this day, they still rib me about "virtual caches" once in a while.

 

Hmmn. They sound a bit narrow minded. Is it just geocaching or does it show up in other topics as well?

 

Just virtual caches. They "get" geocaching. These are programming folks who know all about virtual memory, virtual drives, etc. To them. a virtual cache is just an imaginary cache.

Then they shouldn't really have a problem with virtual caches. Prior to computing virtual refered to something that had the essence or effect but not the outward appearance of something else. Or it had the somewhat opposite meaning in optics of the appearance of an object somewhere other than its actual physical location due to the reflection and refraction of light.

 

In computing virtual has become a synonym for simulated. In this respect a virtual cache is a simulation of a physical cache. Now it's likely your geeky friends laughed becuase they only thought of a computer simulations, so they may think a virtual cache is something you hide in farmville. But simulations have long been carried out in the real world. A virtual cache simulates a physical cache using an existing real world object in place of a container and a task like answering a question or taking a picture to simulate signing the log book. It's actually a very good word to describe what they are.

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TAR, if it turns out to be true, then it's been nice knowing you and meeting you in person at the Great Northern Tier Geocaching Tournament. But I prefer the container to find at the end of my journey, the online log, owning my caches and cache pages myself, having control over them, what the pages look like, being able to edit my finds, add a bunch of photos, etc.... I would hate to see it turn into a container-less game, and I would have to kiss the hobby goodbye, and take up something else. Sad, but true. I don't think it will happen though. Trackables are part of the revenue base, are they not? Hardly anyone likes proxies, so what happens to TBs and geocoins? Virtual won't work there.

Hearsay is just that, hearsay. But have you ever played "telephone"? :unsure:

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So this alleged comment got me to thinking about the future of geocaching...

 

Hearsay: Someone posted that Jeremy told her at the Block Party that Challenges were released at about 50% of what he envisioned they would become, and he wants actual experience with them and the community's input to guide the rest of the feature and function development effort.

So if that's the case don't judge Challenges by what they are today but by what they might become.

 

I can easily see them becoming a replacement for today's geocaches.

 

Will geocaching become a containerless game?

 

Location is the thing, right?

 

Could it be that creating a listing with coordinates which take people to an interesting location where they can see/enjoy/learn something is the goal, and finding something hidden there is secondary to the experience?

 

The advent of Challenges and the moves by Groundspeak to adopt more social media features have me wondering if we're not about to see a major shift in how this game is played.

 

Geocaches are a lot of trouble. Expensive to build and hide, they need adequate permission, they need maintenance, they are a source of constant turmoil (who signed it, who logged it, who cheated, yada yada). A whole cadre of volunteers is required to review them, allow them to be listed or deny their listing, work with land owners, work with cache owners, resolve all sorts of issues. An unfortunate number of people want to hide a cache but don't want to invest time/money/effort or creativity and thus film cans in parking lots abound. You can bet that landowners and police would a lot rather you went somewhere and took a picture than go there and hide something or root around looking for something.

 

In a word geocaches are messy. It could be that for many people the overall messiness overwhelms the joy value of hiding/finding a hidden container.

 

Now come Challenges, which have the potential to eliminate all of that. You get the same experience of going somewhere to see/enjoy/learn with none of the mess of having a container there.

 

Now I know that's radical, but it's worth considering. I love geocaching for all the location/experience factors but actually finding the cache has always been secondary to the overall experience. I could hunt location-based Challenges and be perfectly happy with the game...after all the silliness of stupid Challenges dies down they are just like virts and locationless and waymarks and benchmarks, none of which have containers either.

 

In trying to figure out where Challenges will lead the game this to me seems a real possibility...the language of location, not containers.

 

Geocaching without the mess and control issues. I think I like it! B)

 

Caveat: Yes the question is sort of tongue-in-cheek, I don't see containers going away completely, where would we put all our trackables and broken McToys? :D Still, I think it is very possible if not likely that Challenges will replace a large number of containers and thus the question is worth considering.

I was thinking the same sort of thing when people were having such strong reactions to the first challenges. Do they know something I don't know? Are they thinking this is how all geocaches will be in a year or two?

 

I would miss the caches, to be honest. that's because we've only found 200ish and and there's still plenty more to find, lots of areas to explore and for some of those, we need an excuse. Challenges won't be created for some places the way caches are. But perhaps the coordinates for challenges will make a bit more sense and will be at the actual site of something of interest, not the bush or tree on the path by the nearest road. Also, the challenges can mark a trail much better than caches can, whether it's a 600 mile trail that wibbles all over the place and having some sensibly placed markers with directions would help, or a trail around some interesting historical monuments or the best streets in a leafy suburb. That might be boring for some people, but personally I don't need to phoon or plank to enjoy myself, I'm easily pleased.

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One thing that feeds into the question is how many times I have explained geocaching only to see the listeners eyes glaze over and lose interest when explaining the container hunt comes in.

 

Sure, there are what, 5 million geocachers is I think the number I have heard?

 

What if the whole search-for-the-container thing is what turns so many people off to our game?

 

What if Challenges bring in more Premium Members than geocaches do? Instead of a game of hide-and-seek geocaching becomes a guidebook to the world around you? I'm thinking Groundspeak could open itself to everyone who goes outside instead of the limited pool of us who like hunting geocaches. I would pay for Premium Membership to get a PQ of Challenges near me, and I suspect a lot of people who don't currently geocache would too!

 

This would be very sad indeed. Start another site, call it something other than challenges, and people will come. (But not me)

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I think I just found the world's first geocide note. Apparently the writer wanted to to create containerless caches, but others in the group ridiculed the idea.

 

here's the link

 

+10 dave.

 

Wow! Thanks for that link. Gonna go through that page quite a bit now. I like that he said containers "severely limits the potential of this game". Without containers I would have never found this game.

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