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Completing a Challenge in the past


res2100

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I know that it's up to all of us to decide for ourselves if we have completed a challenge, but I am seeing an increased number of people marking a challenge as completed even though they visited the location well BEFORE that challenge was ever published. Ie they might take an old vacation photo of a place featured in a challenge that they may have visited a year or even just a week ago and use that as evidence that they have completed a challenge. In reality that could probably be looked at as nothing more than a couch potato log as they are not doing any effort to complete the challenge and Groundspeak has stated quite awhile ago that couch potato caching is no longer acceptable. Look at it as, how can someone complete a challenge before that challenge is even issued? I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that I was surprised to see it happening so often and am wondering if people feel it is acceptable or not.

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How other people play the game is none of my concern, but I'm of the same opinion as you. For instance, there's now a Challenge for both Mount Whitney and Half Dome, both of which I've been to/summited on more than one occasion, but which I have not logged, since I haven't been to those locations since the feature was introduced.

 

That's just me.

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Hmm. Well I must say that I'm confused by this. Seems to me one problem with challenges is that they are rule-less and rudder-less. I did a long beach hike a year ago that is now a challenge, and yes, this one is truely challenging. The creator of the challenge pointed it out to me and that I might want to log it. Wondering about whether there were any rules or ethics regarding this I searched around and found nothing regarding this at all. I went ahead and logged it. I certainly wouldn't call this couch-potato logging. I did do it and it was tough. I still do high terrain stuff, but I do see many flaws with Challenges as presented (quite a few in fact) and this is clearly something that needs defining.

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I might just add, that it doesn't quite feel right and probably wouldn't do it again.

 

However, there is some arguement for this. We have many challenge caches in the area as you probably do as well, where you may count previously done caches toward completion of the newly created challenge.

Edited by EraSeek
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I might just add, that it doesn't quite feel right and probably wouldn't do it again.

If it didn't feel right, then you soon should have the ability to delete it.

Well, as I have added "However, there is some arguement for this. We have many challenge caches in the area as you probably do as well, where you may count previously done caches toward completion of the newly created challenge".

I going to wait and see if GC makes any points about this and what the general consenses is, and then I may in fact do so.

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Personally I think it's just proof of how silly the whole concept is :unsure:

I agree! Here how I think they could make it work: Cache pages that the creator owns. Pages that you can create like regular cache pages. Challenges that the owner has done himself recently. Photo proof that the person has completed the task. Review for true quality before they are published. Challenges would have to be like following a challenging track or a quality virtual like Kilroy in DC. NOTHING LAME. THEN it could count toward numbers.

Otherwise just re-wind to what we had before. Get rid of challenges.

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I know that it's up to all of us to decide for ourselves if we have completed a challenge, but I am seeing an increased number of people marking a challenge as completed even though they visited the location well BEFORE that challenge was ever published. Ie they might take an old vacation photo of a place featured in a challenge that they may have visited a year or even just a week ago and use that as evidence that they have completed a challenge. In reality that could probably be looked at as nothing more than a couch potato log as they are not doing any effort to complete the challenge and Groundspeak has stated quite awhile ago that couch potato caching is no longer acceptable. Look at it as, how can someone complete a challenge before that challenge is even issued? I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that I was surprised to see it happening so often and am wondering if people feel it is acceptable or not.

 

It all depends how you define the "Challenge". If the Challenge is "visit this place" and I've been there 20 times, or once 20 years ago .... well, I have been there so I've met the challenge, so yes I will log it.

 

If you want to keep your "Challenge" as a future activity, you need to set it up in a way that is a future activity. Go to Disney World is a challenge sure ... and about half the people I know have been there. If, on the other hand your challenge is Go to Disney World and Phoon in front of Space Mountain, or hold up a sign with the date on it and you've just defined the Challenge as something the person has likely not done yet.

 

You can complete a challenge before it's issued. You can't log a cache before it's published because it wasn't there before you placed it. If you challenge someone to go somewhere and / or perform an action, it is quite possible they have done that already.

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I won't do it. As far as I'm concerned You can't complete a challenge before it was a challenge.

 

That's the way I view it too right now.

Challenge created T=0.

Person accepts the challenge T+1.

Person completes the challenge T+2.

Person uses a past experience to complete a challenge T-1...The challenge never existed then so you could not have completed it.

I know it's up to the individual, but it seems bad form and no effort to complete the challenge for someone to use a past experience before the challenge was created to log it as completed. Logically people should be completing the challenge AFTER they accept it. You really can't complete something BEFORE it even existed, unless you can perhaps backdate your completed log, but that is not possible with Challenges.

 

If Groundspeak on the other hand says it's ok to use a past experience to complete a challenge, then fine, atleast it would be accepted. I've looked at dozens of Challenges that I qualified for based on a past experience, but I don't see the point of marking those as complete now, unless I do it again. I don't need another smiley that bad.

 

I also see people accepting and completing challenges that are not valid. Ie, there are a lot of "locationless" challenges being created, but fortunately these are quickly archived once they are flagged.

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I know that it's up to all of us to decide for ourselves if we have completed a challenge, but I am seeing an increased number of people marking a challenge as completed even though they visited the location well BEFORE that challenge was ever published. Ie they might take an old vacation photo of a place featured in a challenge that they may have visited a year or even just a week ago and use that as evidence that they have completed a challenge. In reality that could probably be looked at as nothing more than a couch potato log as they are not doing any effort to complete the challenge and Groundspeak has stated quite awhile ago that couch potato caching is no longer acceptable. Look at it as, how can someone complete a challenge before that challenge is even issued? I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that I was surprised to see it happening so often and am wondering if people feel it is acceptable or not.

 

It all depends how you define the "Challenge". If the Challenge is "visit this place" and I've been there 20 times, or once 20 years ago .... well, I have been there so I've met the challenge, so yes I will log it.

 

If you want to keep your "Challenge" as a future activity, you need to set it up in a way that is a future activity. Go to Disney World is a challenge sure ... and about half the people I know have been there. If, on the other hand your challenge is Go to Disney World and Phoon in front of Space Mountain, or hold up a sign with the date on it and you've just defined the Challenge as something the person has likely not done yet.

 

You can complete a challenge before it's issued. You can't log a cache before it's published because it wasn't there before you placed it. If you challenge someone to go somewhere and / or perform an action, it is quite possible they have done that already.

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I might just add, that it doesn't quite feel right and probably wouldn't do it again.

 

However, there is some arguement for this. We have many challenge caches in the area as you probably do as well, where you may count previously done caches toward completion of the newly created challenge.

 

he is referring to my challenge it would seem. Have looked at many challenges, most do not say "going forward" so personally I do not think its "cheating" to use a past experience.

 

Course, there are no owners EraSeek to these challenges. I merely created it. What folks log is their own conscience. I do not feel its cheating at all, you did it. There is no date on challenges unlike cache finds or "challenge caches". Why not if you ask me.

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If Groundspeak on the other hand says it's ok to use a past experience to complete a challenge, then fine, atleast it would be accepted. I've looked at dozens of Challenges that I qualified for based on a past experience, but I don't see the point of marking those as complete now, unless I do it again. I don't need another smiley that bad.

 

Groundspeak hasn't said it's okay or that it's not okay. They haven't given the power to the creator of the challenge to say it's okay or that it's not okay. That only leaves the person accepting a challenge to decide whether it's okay or not okay to retroactively complete it. Everyone is free to define their own criteria for what constitutes a completion. Personally, I'm going to look at the challenge description and comply with what the creator is challenging me to do. If the challenges is to take a picture from a certain location on a river in Saskatchewan I'm not going to submit a picture I took six yeas ago in Switzerland (although it *is* a nice picture). Even if the creator doesn't stipulate that the action should take place after the challenge has been issued I probably won't accept the challenge if I completed it before it was created. I might make exceptions if it's someplace I think I might never visit again but that's my choice. I suppose there will be some that will accept all challenges that they've retroactively completed and some that post completed logs on challenges that it's pretty clear they did not complete as the creator intended, but as Briansnat wrote, I think they're missing the point.

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I think I wouldn't do it, but it could depend on the circumstances and that's just me.

 

For example if it was something like climb Mount Everest and I had done it before, I probably wouldn't want to do it again and I would consider logging it completed.

If it was go to Disney World and ride Space Mountain, I have done that before, but I would wait until I did it again before I logged it.

 

It would however be up to the individual player.

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I quote from a Challenge "Prior trips ARE ALLOWED to be logged as a completion " and because I will probably never go back to the spot which is 13 000km from my home location I logged it as complete?

 

I don't feel as bad about this as I did when I kissed a frog - which I deleted before it was archived!

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There's a nice almost unknown city park. In that park there is an interesting gated entrance to a tunnel, among other things.

 

There's been a Waymark there for years, its still active.

 

There's been a geocache there for years, it was recently archived.

 

A new geocache has been hidden there.

 

The Waymark requires that the cacher go to the park and have a picture made with the tunnel entrance in the background.

 

The archived geocache required cachers to find and sign a cache which was at the tunnel entrance, then invited (but did not require) cachers to post a picture with the tunnel entrance in the background.

 

The new geocache requires cachers to find and sign a cache which is near the tunnel entrance, then invites (but does not require) cachers to post a picture with the tunnel entrance in the background.

 

Now a new Challenge has been created there which requires a picture of the cacher with the tunnel entrance in the background.

 

Cachers who haven't been there learn about a nice park, see an interesting historical artifact, log a Waymark and complete a Challenge with a single picture. Then they have the opportunity to find and sign a geocache, to which they can upload the same picture if they choose.

 

The park hasn't changed. A picture of the cacher with the tunnel entrance in the background taken five years ago would be indistinguishable from the same picture being taken there today.

 

Cachers who found the pre-existing WayMark or geocache and posted their picture have visited the place and proven it.

 

Are y'all saying that cachers who have already proven that they've been there should have to go back and get a new picture just to complete the Challenge?

 

If you agree that would be silly then they should be able to use that old picture to complete the Challenge.

 

If you agree that they should be able to use that old Waymark or geocache picture to prove they were there and complete the Challenge then what's the difference if a Challenge requires a picture in front of the Washington Memorial, which you haven't visited in twenty years but do have a picture of you there as required? Should you have to make a trip to Washington to get a new picture of you in the same place, which hasn't changed in a hundred years?

 

Of course not. The Challenge is to get you to see the Washington Memorial and post a pic to prove that you were there. It isn't to prove you were there in the last two days.

 

To save you some looking here's the actual challenge:

 

A lovely hidden park, some interesting history and old technology still working. You will find all that here plus a Challenge, a Waymark and a Geocache!

 

The Challenge - Have your picture taken in front of the gated tunnel entrance and post it here to verify that you were in fact there.

 

Your Challenge is done; you may now log this Challenge as Completed!

 

Those who have already posted their picture to the WayMark or to the archived Geocache that was here may use that picture to log this Challenge. No need to go back just for a new picture, though you will want to go back to hunt the new Froggie's Rock Garden cache.

 

These are not part of the Challenge but are well worth doing while you are there:

 

Read about this place and log the WayMark at http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM4M48.

 

Find the geocache Froggy's Rock Garden GC32JXG

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I think I wouldn't do it, but it could depend on the circumstances and that's just me.

 

For example if it was something like climb Mount Everest and I had done it before, I probably wouldn't want to do it again and I would consider logging it completed.

If it was go to Disney World and ride Space Mountain, I have done that before, but I would wait until I did it again before I logged it.

 

It would however be up to the individual player.

 

Excellent examples. If a challenge is a once in a lifetime event I see no problem in logging it. If I can do the challenge again then I will not log it. I do not think I will ever go back to Colca Canyon in Peru, but if a challenge was listed to visit it - I would log it. Now, Niagara Falls, it is in my back yard - I would not log that one (quiet GOF - I will fix the experiment soon! haha).

 

I quote from a Challenge "Prior trips ARE ALLOWED to be logged as a completion " and because I will probably never go back to the spot which is 13 000km from my home location I logged it as complete?

 

I don't feel as bad about this as I did when I kissed a frog - which I deleted before it was archived!

 

You may be quoting from one of mine. Yes, on one I specifically said that, for it is a once in a lifetime experience for many around the world, and I want to see the pictures they have. I am putting the words "must be completed after this creation date" on most I create, just thought for one I would allow prior visits because of the unique situation of once in a lifetime visit. They DID complete the task after all.

 

If it's acceptable to you, it's acceptable. You answer on to yourself.

Great answer Taz er ST, but so many here cannot grasp that - they feel they need to go thumb down any that do not fit "their" world - sad!

Edited by Frank Broughton
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I'll complete challenges retroactively if it makes sense to do so. For example, I have about a billion pictures of me hiking. I was just hiking Tallulah Gorge SP, the day the challenges were released. I wasn't on the forums to read about it but I always take self pics of my hikes. So two days later, I saw the hiking challenge and uploaded my least hiking pic. Seems ok to me.

 

Same with the flora and fauna challenge. I had a picture of me in saw palmettos because they are always around when I cache. So I had to upload that pic and look up the scientitic name.

 

Again, seems ok. I'm not going to go outside and snap yet another pic of me with saw palemttos when I have billions already.

 

Now, the litter pick up challenge I will wait to complete until I go do it again, after I saw the challenge. That challenge has a purpose and I can understand that purpose and complete the challenge when I have achieved the purpose.

Edited by SeekerOfTheWay
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Unless/until GS specifically creates a rule stating you cannot retroactively log challenges, I'll backdate them.

Unless/until GS specifically creates a rule stating you cannot claim a find for a cache that was 0.3 miles away when your teammate found and signed it for you, then I'll claim those finds. On second thought, I think I'll pass. Just because I can do something doesn't mean I consider it appropriate to do so.

 

I understand that some people will be comfortable backlogging challenge completions, and that's okay. To each, their own.

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If you agree that they should be able to use that old Waymark or geocache picture to prove they were there and complete the Challenge then what's the difference if a Challenge requires a picture in front of the Washington Memorial, which you haven't visited in twenty years but do have a picture of you there as required? Should you have to make a trip to Washington to get a new picture of you in the same place, which hasn't changed in a hundred years?

 

Of course not. The Challenge is to get you to see the Washington Memorial and post a pic to prove that you were there. It isn't to prove you were there in the last two days.

 

Of course, if someone posts a different challenge to post a pic to prove you were there since the challenge was created then those that accept the challenge should actually accept it given the terms that creator has stipulated. What we're seeing way to much of is someone creating a challenge to do something, and others accepting and posting a completed log without actually meeting the criteria posed by the creator. I have no idea why this concept is so hard for some to comprehend. If someone poses a challenge to do something, and you do something else, you haven't completed the challenge.

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Of interest to this arguement is the following:

 

There is:

A title,

a coordinate,

the creators text regarding the challenge

 

What there isn't and it isn't:

There is NO creation date,

This is NOT Waymarking, geocaching, or benchmarking,

there is no box,

There is no owner,

There is no stated creator unless you dig deep in the logs.

There are no rules or guidelines other than specified in the text.

 

Maybe there should be... I'm just pointing out the elements here.

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Of interest to this arguement is the following:

 

There is:

A title,

a coordinate,

the creators text regarding the challenge

 

What there isn't and it isn't:

There is NO creation date,

This is NOT Waymarking, geocaching, or benchmarking,

there is no box,

There is no owner,

There is no stated creator unless you dig deep in the logs.

There are no rules or guidelines other than specified in the text.

 

Maybe there should be... I'm just pointing out the elements here.

There are timeframes...ie xx days ago...similar to what they did with cache logs with the latest update. Maybe they will change this to actual date.

It is not Waymarking or benchmarking...it is a part of geocaching, perhaps an extension of geocaching as we know it. If you suggest that challenges may not be geocaching, then virtuals, web cam, locationless and earthcaches may not geocaching either, but they all count and geocachers take part.

 

I do see guidelines...in the FAQ, when you create a new one, in the knowledge base...you just need to look. Unfortunately many people don't read them in detail and hence either purposely or accidently create bogus or invalid challenges.

 

For those that don't want to take part, then it doesn't affect them at all and they can continue to enjoy geocaching the way they always have.

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Yes, sorry, you are right they are part of geocaching, or rather as you say an extention. And I think it should be if it is going to work. Not another seperate game. I have looked at the FQA several times and did not see a whole lot there on rules and guidelines. Maybe you see more when you create a challenge which I have not done yet.

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I do see guidelines...in the FAQ, when you create a new one, in the knowledge base...you just need to look. Unfortunately many people don't read them in detail and hence either purposely or accidently create bogus or invalid challenges.

 

OK, I'm still not seeing what you say is there. I did find this by Jeremy in the "The Eurka Moment" blog:

"What are the guidelines for issuing a challenge? Unlike caches, there aren’t any official guidelines"

Maybe you could point out what you think people are missing on guidlines and rules. I looked in the Knowledge books and FAQ. Not much there.

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I've just had this log on one of our Challenges

 

"wooooot woooot did tht earlyer and didnt know about the chllenge"

 

<sigh>

 

It's vaguely disappointing to get a retrospective Challenge log but no more than that. I would have preferred it if the cacher had done the task after seeing the Challenge issued but at least they have been to the location.

 

It's one of those situations that "Meh" is made for.

 

MrsB :)

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I do see guidelines...in the FAQ, when you create a new one, in the knowledge base...you just need to look. Unfortunately many people don't read them in detail and hence either purposely or accidently create bogus or invalid challenges.

 

OK, I'm still not seeing what you say is there. I did find this by Jeremy in the "The Eurka Moment" blog:

"What are the guidelines for issuing a challenge? Unlike caches, there aren’t any official guidelines"

Maybe you could point out what you think people are missing on guidlines and rules. I looked in the Knowledge books and FAQ. Not much there.

 

Click on the create a challenge button and some more guidelines will pop up. I think the FAQ says it all very well too. The biggest mistake people are making is that they are trying to make play anywhere caches as a location-specific and that is not right...and unfortunately people are accepting and completing these invalid challenges. I think the FAQ is pretty clear on what location specific challenges are, but people don't seem to read it.

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I won't do it. As far as I'm concerned You can't complete a challenge before it was a challenge.

 

I challenge you to complete 1st grade.

 

Invalid challenge. It has to be: I challenge you to complete 1st grade in Red Hill, Pennsylvania.

 

:)

 

Ohhh, SNAP!

Unless Red Hill has only one elementary school and bans homeschoolers, then it's still not location-specific! :huh:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I won't do it. As far as I'm concerned You can't complete a challenge before it was a challenge.

 

I challenge you to complete 1st grade.

 

Invalid challenge. It has to be: I challenge you to complete 1st grade in Red Hill, Pennsylvania.

 

:)

 

Ohhh, SNAP!

Unless Red Hill has only one elementary school and bans homeschoolers, then it's still not location-specific! :huh:

 

Double ohSNAP! :)

 

There is only one school though. Haha.

Edited by SeekerOfTheWay
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Click on the create a challenge button and some more guidelines will pop up. I think the FAQ says it all very well too. The biggest mistake people are making is that they are trying to make play anywhere caches as a location-specific and that is not right...and unfortunately people are accepting and completing these invalid challenges. I think the FAQ is pretty clear on what location specific challenges are, but people don't seem to read it.

 

there is absolutely nothing anywhere defining "location" as it pertains to challenges

 

the only time i heard a somewhat more descriptive definition was in the podcast

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What is the point of defining your own rules for a given challenge. The Challenge description is provided by a third party, the owner, and has a intended meaning. Even if it is not communicated well, this is till the case. In the event of poor-communication or uncertainty, the authority has to be the owner. Without structure and meaning, the challenge is just a suggestion, and no one could truly claim completion. I think this is clear in the language of challenge/accept/complete. If I say, "I accept your challenge," that means that I am submitting to following your rules to attempt to prove I can complete some task as per your instruction. It doesn't mean that I do whatever until I am personally satisfied.

 

One option is to could call a 'completion' something different, like 'I've decided I'm done.' But otherwise I would rather just start a blog of random stuff I did each day, and perhaps allow comments to take suggestions.

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there is absolutely nothing anywhere defining "location" as it pertains to challenges

There's a little bit of guidance on the page that appears after a challenge has been archived and on the page that appears when you start to create a challenge:

 

Location-specific

 

The location of a challenge should be directly related to the action. "Take a picture of yourself with the Eiffel Tower" is location-specific, while "Take pictures of the night sky in Seattle" or "Find this/a geocache" are not. The goal of Challenges, and Geocaching, is to explore the world around you.

 

There should only be one location where you can complete the challenge.

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The Challenge description is provided by a third party, the owner, and has a intended meaning. Even if it is not communicated well, this is till the case. In the event of poor-communication or uncertainty, the authority has to be the owner.

Challenges have "creators" but not "owners." At this time, the creator isn't even mentioned on the challenge's page.

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To those who think you should not log as completed challenges for tasks you've done in the past and have the necessary photos to prove it :

 

What if I completed the tasks for a challenge that already exists, before knowing that the challenge exists? Should I go back and do it all over again if I want to log the challenge?

 

I probably would log it without repeating the tasks, but it seems very similar to logging as complete a challenge for something done in the past to me. If a tree falls in a forest and all that.

Edited by Chrysalides
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Question about Challenges:

Are you supposed to accept a Challenge then go do it OR are you allowed to accept a Challenge then post an old picture of you doing the activity in the past?

i.e. World Challenge - Be A Kid Again (To complete this challenge, you must take a picture of yourself climbing a tree.) - was posted only a few hours ago & already 100 people claim to have completed the Challenge. There is no way that all of these people could have completed the Challenge that quickly - plus many of the pictures have people climbing trees with specialty equipment, again not possible that quickly - and many even noted in their logs that it was a tree that they climbed in the past and an old picture.

If you can get credit for things done in the past, I can post a picture of myself doing tons of these Challenges in the past & rack up a bunch of smiles.

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Question about Challenges:

Are you supposed to accept a Challenge then go do it OR are you allowed to accept a Challenge then post an old picture of you doing the activity in the past?

i.e. World Challenge - Be A Kid Again (To complete this challenge, you must take a picture of yourself climbing a tree.) - was posted only a few hours ago & already 100 people claim to have completed the Challenge. There is no way that all of these people could have completed the Challenge that quickly - plus many of the pictures have people climbing trees with specialty equipment, again not possible that quickly - and many even noted in their logs that it was a tree that they climbed in the past and an old picture.

If you can get credit for things done in the past, I can post a picture of myself doing tons of these Challenges in the past & rack up a bunch of smiles.

Hey, any Challenge featuring chicks in trees is a good one!

 

c10fc07c-f80b-4f0f-be62-0109398e1701.jpg

 

But you're right... I know the redhead in the pic below and know when that pic was taken!

 

a01d26c0-eb2a-46b4-8f7a-ea19e3684087.jpg

 

Yes, I think it's perfectly acceptable. My one created challenge even tells folks to. I can't see making folks go back where they've been just to get a new picture.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I think it is up to the challenge creator to specify whether it is acceptable to mark a challenge "complete" if you have done it in the past. Photo challenges in particular should have an indication from the creator. I would find it perfectly acceptable to post a photo of yourself from the past if it meets the requirement of the challenge. Why not take credit for something you have done... past or present?

 

The challenge creator could easily rule out past photos by requiring that you do something specific in your photo if they want the challenge to be done after the challenge was posted. Most likely, if not specified, the challenge creator would just like to see photos of "people climbing trees" for example, and would welcome any photo of you in a tree as a completion. If not, he/she should specify so...

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