Jump to content

Challenges vs. Virtuals


Inkahoots
Followers 3

Recommended Posts

I assume the new feature added by Groundspeak "Challenges" is meant to replace the old Virtual Caches no longer available for publish. I understand why the "virtuals" were discontinued. I am told reviewers were swamped with rediculious "virtual" locations that had no educational or historical value. I totally agree with the decision to eliminate this type request.

Now, it is my opinion that virtuals should be reinstated with specific rules as to the cache value as it applies to visiting historical and educational sites. I can't see why this can't be easily accomplished!

So, now we have "Challenges"? So far I've seen more of these archived before I can even read the challenge. Looks like a fun game but so far it appears to be a joke! Tell me, which seems more educational, a cacher earning a smilie for posting a picture of someone being "challenged" to "Kiss A Frog" or visiting a Civil War Memorial and learning something along the way?

I have published one challenge located in Augusta, Ga. and will play the game for a while, however this seems to me to be far removed from the original intent of geocaching! My two cents!

I'd appreciate your opinion!

Hoots! Augusta, GA.

Link to comment

I assume the new feature added by Groundspeak "Challenges" is meant to replace the old Virtual Caches no longer available for publish. I understand why the "virtuals" were discontinued. I am told reviewers were swamped with rediculious "virtual" locations that had no educational or historical value. I totally agree with the decision to eliminate this type request.

Now, it is my opinion that virtuals should be reinstated with specific rules as to the cache value as it applies to visiting historical and educational sites. I can't see why this can't be easily accomplished!

So, now we have "Challenges"? So far I've seen more of these archived before I can even read the challenge. Looks like a fun game but so far it appears to be a joke! Tell me, which seems more educational, a cacher earning a smilie for posting a picture of someone being "challenged" to "Kiss A Frog" or visiting a Civil War Memorial and learning something along the way?

I have published one challenge located in Augusta, Ga. and will play the game for a while, however this seems to me to be far removed from the original intent of geocaching! My two cents!

I'd appreciate your opinion!

Hoots! Augusta, GA.

 

My opinion:

Virtuals are fun and have a place in geocaching

Challenges are just plain dumb and should never have been introduced

Link to comment

It is off to a pretty bad start. Ironically, it seems the "Kiss A Frog" challenge (which was created by Groundspeak) is part of the problem: while sort of on-theme (because Groundspeak's mascot is a frog), it muddles the idea of Challenges being location-based and doesn't seem quite on the same level as historic or scenic locations.

 

I think we're stuck with Challenges in some form because Groundspeak has invested too much time and effort in it to abandon it despite the backlash. This is their way to try to satisfy the cachers who miss Virtuals and Locationaless/Reverse caches.

 

I think the Challenges system does have some merits, but it's going to need alot of work. The open submission system seems to be a huge issue. Counting toward Finds seemed a great idea in theory, but now seeing what Challenges involve makes me change my stance; I would rather them not count toward my overall Finds total. That will make the people who don't want to participate not feel slighted.

 

There are some Feedback forum topics about Challenges. I don't think trying to make them go away is going to succeed; we need to put on our thinking caps and figure out how to make them better.

Link to comment

I assume the new feature added by Groundspeak "Challenges" is meant to replace the old Virtual Caches no longer available for publish. I understand why the "virtuals" were discontinued. I am told reviewers were swamped with rediculious "virtual" locations that had no educational or historical value. I totally agree with the decision to eliminate this type request.

Now, it is my opinion that virtuals should be reinstated with specific rules as to the cache value as it applies to visiting historical and educational sites. I can't see why this can't be easily accomplished!

So, now we have "Challenges"? So far I've seen more of these archived before I can even read the challenge. Looks like a fun game but so far it appears to be a joke! Tell me, which seems more educational, a cacher earning a smilie for posting a picture of someone being "challenged" to "Kiss A Frog" or visiting a Civil War Memorial and learning something along the way?

I have published one challenge located in Augusta, Ga. and will play the game for a while, however this seems to me to be far removed from the original intent of geocaching! My two cents!

I'd appreciate your opinion!

Hoots! Augusta, GA.

Many people enjoyed virtual caches because they brought you to someplace "wow". The problem is that it is not simple to define "wow". Even defining what is historical or educational is too subjective. EarthCaches have specific requirements that the the be educational regarding Earth Science. Yet there are alway controversies with the EarthCache reviewers denying a cache because it isn't Earth science or it isn't educational. They EarthCache reviewer have even decide that certain Earth science phenomenon can no longer be listed as EarthCaches because they were becoming too common and the lessons were too repetative.

 

In looking at what made something "wow" when I came up with the Best Kept Secrets Waymaring category, I discovered there were many different opinions. Having a challenge to do a particular task or take a particular photo at the location was one idea for defining "wow". In this respect, challenges are just as good as any other definition of "wow".

 

I suspect that Groundspeak chose this definition because they felt it was simple enough for people to understand and broad enough that you wouldn't need to have reviewers approve each challenge before it was published. It's clear now that the "guidelines" aren't as easily understood as was thought. The example "do anywhere" challenge of kissing a frog confused the primary goal of selecting a challenge that was tied to location. In addition, they use of community feedback to vote up or down a challenge is confusing. Does it mean this challenge is one you like or does it mean that it is one that is appropriate and meets the intent of the guidelines? Perhaps with a bit of tweaking there could be ways reduce or eliminate the inappropriate challenges.

 

It's clear that not everyone will agree with this definition of "wow". There will be some who prefer the surprise of Best Kept Secrets or the educational aspect of EarthCaches or history caches. I prefer some mix of "wow" definitions. If your virtual isn't "wow" enough for one of these, perhaps it could be published in another. Cachers could visit any or all of the these categories depending on what they prefer. (Oh wait, it sounds like I'm describing Waymarking).

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment

The open submission system is a huge problem! This needs to be fixed, get special reveiwers if necessary.

Also the fact that no one "owns" the challange once it published is a big problem too. This makes it impossible to police bogus "fınds".

 

When it comes down to it, the better solution would have to allowed the original virts back for users to make and locationless back for GS only to make.

Link to comment

Where's the 'geo'-part in this??? :unsure:

 

When my hunny told me there was sth new, called 'challenge', I thought you'd still have to go to some location and take a picture of you in a specific position.

So insyead of kissing any kind of frog, go kiss the statue in park X in city X, where you still need the coords to find the statue or a specific building or a specific tree or ... some specific place!

But where's the fun of staying home and photoshop to score finds??

This has nothing to do with GC!

 

And I would break the rule of having my coins being virtually discovered??

Thanks to those virtuals I bought 350 coins! Money in the pocket for GC!

But this has nothing to do with the new challenges :huh:

 

Skip the challenge and a revival for the virtuals!!!

Link to comment

and locationless back for GS only to make.

Why? Waymarking is the perfect locationless replacement. Creating a category is like listing a locationless. The categories are peer reviewed so the quality is high. Listing a waymark in a category is like finding a locationless. The category owners approve the waymark so there aren't any bugus waymarks just like the CO would delete bogus finds on a locationless.

 

The only difference is that listing a waymark doesn't increase your find count on geocaching.com.

Link to comment

 

Many people enjoyed virtual caches because they brought you to someplace "wow". The problem is that it is not simple to define "wow". Even defining what is historical or educational is too subjective.

 

It might be too subjective in order to guarantee that all agree that something is educative or wow, but that's comparable to that is is subjective what constitutes a nice hike.

 

It appears to me that the new challenges focus on something completely different than typical virtuals. The focus is not on sharing a location or learning something, but on putting special requirements on a visit like visiting a sight at 24:00 or performing a handstand in front of it etc. It's more like ALRs implemented in a containerless manner.

 

Cezanne

Link to comment

It appears to me that the new challenges focus on something completely different than typical virtuals. The focus is not on sharing a location or learning something, but on putting special requirements on a visit like visiting a sight at 24:00 or performing a handstand in front of it etc. It's more like ALRs implemented in a containerless manner.

Exactly! Challenges are about doing non-geocaching actions at a (sometimes arbitrary) location. Virtuals were about visiting and seeing something at a location.

 

I was hoping the photo challenges would be about taking a picture of something at a location like virtuals but they're being turned into action challenges where the creator wants to witness the action.

Link to comment

Virtuals served a purpose when a container would not surive due to muggles or that it was not appropriate. Waymarking has actually done a not too bad of job coving virtuals. (however I would prefer a virtual on gc.com to truely be the excellent spot to go and locate and not just be every mcdonalds or any cemetery).

 

Challenges feel more like the locationless caches which are not tied to any location. The world wide challenges quickly removed the location based validity of challenges. I think that having thier own site would give people a new game but they need to be cleanly removed from GC.com. (The self policing features of WM.com might also help keep the new challenges a bit higher quality...)

 

The challenge cache type I was hoping for was to clearly identify the type of puzzle cache we have today like find a cache in every country or something like that.

 

So naming convention and integration with GC.com = FAIL.

New idea and fun for a new group of people = good.

Edited by GeoBlank
Link to comment

OK, I gave it my try. I attempted and completed my first and only challenge. I think it is a rediculous idea and belittles the idea of virtual caches. Thank goodness the original virtuals have allowed to remain. Too bad new ones can not be created.

They said that virtuals were stopped because they didn't follow the geocaching guidelines of having a log to sign. Well where is the log on these challenges? I would much rather to go a statue, read a plaque and learn something than just follow someones whim of a silly picture.

Come on Groundspeak. Lets keep the integrity in this game. Virtuals can be created with specific criteria such as earthcaches and have a learning process too. There are so many interesting places to visit. At least with virtuals, you had to visit the sight and prove you were there either by questions or picture. These challenges can be accomplished right in my living room in front of a computer. Is that what you call geocaching???????

I tried it, I don't like it. To each his own, but in my opinion it was a lot of wasted manpower for a "Silly" outcome.

The SKPs

Link to comment

I like the idea, but when i first heard about it i was hoping it would show off all the "real" GC challenges out there. Like one cache in every county in a specific state, a cache in every state in the US, a cache on every continent in the world, etc etc... Im really disappointed.

 

that is what I thought I was going to find also. WRONG....... very disappointing

Link to comment

I like the new challanges, but they do not compare to virtual listings. Sure I am disappointed with what we thought we were getting when we asked for virtuals to be reinstated. I just list my real virtuals on another site that has a better logging system called a code phrase. I still think that I can have some fun with these new challanges. It's not about the numbers to me anyway. :rolleyes:

Link to comment

Personally, I believe that ALL these challenges are DUMB!

 

Ok, let's do a tribute to 911. Then all these foreign geocachers come and mark it completed!

The original Idea was good but the resulting outcomes are so severely OFFENSIVE that I just

wish that they would all just disappear!

 

No rules doesn't work!

PLEASE delete any named cacher with only challenges and BAN THEIR IP address!

 

Give me a break!

 

Edited and added:

Somebody mentioned that virtuals had no log to sign. There are either photo or other

requirements to fill and submit to the cache owner, THEN HE/SHE can approve or delete

your log?find at their discretion! THAT'S RULES!!!

 

Challenges have NO RULES!!! NO GOVERNENCE!!!

 

BOYCOTT CHALLENGES!!!

Edited by Got_4by4
Link to comment

Personally, I believe that ALL these challenges are DUMB!

 

Ok, let's do a tribute to 911. Then all these foreign geocachers come and mark it completed!

The original Idea was good but the resulting outcomes are so severely OFFENSIVE that I just

wish that they would all just disappear!

 

No rules doesn't work!

PLEASE delete any named cacher with only challenges and BAN THEIR IP address!

 

Give me a break!

 

Edited and added:

Somebody mentioned that virtuals had no log to sign. There are either photo or other

requirements to fill and submit to the cache owner, THEN HE/SHE can approve or delete

your log?find at their discretion! THAT'S RULES!!!

 

Challenges have NO RULES!!! NO GOVERNENCE!!!

 

BOYCOTT CHALLENGES!!!

Why have you completed two if they are so dumb? :anibad::lol::blink:

Link to comment

Bring back virtuals... the old ones - exactly the same. Except keep some ideas from these challenges like only premium members can create them and a thumps up/down rating system

 

Has anyone actually tried to place a Challenge like this?

Like the way on old virtual would have been placed?

 

Has everyone read the FAQ's also, seems like there is a reasonable system to keep things in order.

 

I gotta say, as one that lived through the Virtuals, Locationless and ALR debates and debacles, this system seems like a well thought out and very pliable solution.

 

It does seems like the first wave of players that decided to place a Challenge didn't give it much thought. Thanks a shame.

Hate the players, not the game.

 

Oddly enough, I think this it the first time in history geocaching that I've seen an outcry in the forums asking for more rules and regulations.

Link to comment

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

Link to comment

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

 

Sit at home and kiss a frog. Do nothing for 10 minutes. Post a picture of you and your dog. Seriously, what is the point?

Edited by Keystone
Potty language removed by moderator.
Link to comment

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

 

With the old virtuals, the creator had control over the logs and he could ask for answers to be mailed to him.

With the new system, any completed log has to stand and the creator has no control at all. Asking questions and

requiring answers to be sent are not part of the system.

For most action challenges not even a proof is required.

 

Moreover, as I mentioned above the intent of virtuals like going to a famous bridge and take a photo there, was to show the bridge and not require people to go there only at 2:00 in the night or perform a handstand there. The old activity was way more serious and not so much like making jokes. A lot of requirements remind me of the early times of ALRs for caches. There people wanted to see how far other cachers go to obtain a found it log. Some of the new challenges are of that type.

 

Certainly there are others as well where one is required e.g. just to take a photograph of a specific ruin, but such pictures are available in the internet and so armchair logging gets completely out of control.

 

 

Cezanne

Link to comment

I thought it was going to be taken seriously. I had envisioned something structured like a broadening of earthcaches. This looks more like they decided to rub the noses of the people complaining about waymarks being on another site and not counting as finds.

 

If you were required to post the picture with you at a specific location and there was some accountability then they would be moving in the right direction. But I can kiss a frog in my house or just post something I found on the internet and claim a find. How is that promoting getting outdoors?

Link to comment
' timestamp='1313739397' post='4814757']

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

 

Sit at home and kiss a frog. Do nothing for 10 minutes. Post a picture of you and your dog. Seriously, what is the point?

Just like the old virtual, just like caches always have been, just like every hobby activity ever thought of, do the ones that interest you and not the ones that you find to be lame.

 

In my mind, this is part of the beauty of 'accepting the challenge'. At your leisure, you can identify those challenges that interest you. The you have a neat list of the ones that you want to go after.

Edited by Keystone
Potty language removed from quoted post
Link to comment

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

I don't consider taking a picture of yourself or your GPSr as "doing something". As you said it's just proof you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something some not geocaching task. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there standing on your head.

Fixed that for you. There are very few challenges that just ask for a verification picture and even those have you don't something other than taking the picture.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

Looks to me like you're in the minority here. Challenges are pure distilled ALRs.

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

No, they gave us something completely new. The fact that it's no longer a cache listing shows it's a completely different animal.

Edited by Avernar
Link to comment

Just like the old virtual, just like caches always have been, just like every hobby activity ever thought of, do the ones that interest you and not the ones that you find to be lame.

 

In my mind, this is part of the beauty of 'accepting the challenge'. At your leisure, you can identify those challenges that interest you. The you have a neat list of the ones that you want to go after.

That's the problem. None of them interest me. I don't like action challenges as they're just ALRs. I was looking through the photo ones but almost all are action challenges in disguise.

 

If there was a basic review process where the basics were verified (it's location based and in the right category) then I would be more interested. Right now with the post-review system it's just anarchy.

Link to comment
' timestamp='1313739397' post='4814757']

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

Sit at home and kiss a frog. Do nothing for 10 minutes. Post a picture of you and your dog. Seriously, what is the point?

I don't believe that is what Groundspeak had in mind as they have been quickly deleting such non location based challenges. I think what they are looking for is something along the lines of what The Alabama Rambler is outlining.

 

Part of the problem is that their "Kiss a Frog" worldwide challenge is being used as a model of what a challenge should be and that is what people are submitting. It was a poor choice on their part.

 

 

Oddly enough, I think this it the first time in history geocaching that I've seen an outcry in the forums asking for more rules and regulations.

 

That is unusual.

Edited by Keystone
Potty language removed from quoted post
Link to comment
That's the problem. None of them interest me. I don't like action challenges as they're just ALRs. I was looking through the photo ones but almost all are action challenges in disguise.

 

Virtuals have always been just ALRs. Taking a photo and posting it is also an ALR, as is sending some answers to the CO. Only that since there's no cache, so there's no "A".

Link to comment

Case in point! I just completed my first "challenge" sitting here at my computer! Challenge was "Las Vegas Sign"...........Posted a pic I took back in April while caching around Vegas. WOW, now that's real Geocaching! Two smilies for the same pic! Think I'll pass on the new game! What's next..Geocaching Farmville?

Hoots!

Link to comment
What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something some not geocaching task. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there standing on your head.
Fixed that for you. There are very few challenges that just ask for a verification picture and even those have you don't something other than taking the picture.
Two of the three challenge caches near my office merely require you to go to the location and take a pic, just like the old virts. The other challenge requires you to go to a specific location and do a specific action. It further requests a pic, but doesn't require it.
It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!
Looks to me like you're in the minority here. Challenges are pure distilled ALRs.
I think TAR has it right. Challenges do a very good job of replicating the old virt and webcam caches. Worldwide challenges do a good job of replicating LCs. The very fact that you do not like that they also are an alternative to ALRs does not change this fact.
We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:
No, they gave us something completely new. The fact that it's no longer a cache listing shows it's a completely different animal.
I have owned a virt for many years now. My virt would fit very neatly into the challenge concept. The mere fact that it would have a different listing page does not mean that the experience would be at all different.
Link to comment

Case in point! I just completed my first "challenge" sitting here at my computer! Challenge was "Las Vegas Sign"...........Posted a pic I took back in April while caching around Vegas. WOW, now that's real Geocaching! Two smilies for the same pic! Think I'll pass on the new game! What's next..Geocaching Farmville?

Hoots!

As I understand your post, there is a challenge that requires you to go to the Las Vegas sign and take a pic. You went to the sign and took a pic. You submitted this pic as proof of completing the challenge.

 

What's your beef?

Link to comment

Virtuals have always been just ALRs. Taking a photo and posting it is also an ALR, as is sending some answers to the CO. Only that since there's no cache, so there's no "A".

Exactly. Since there's no A they weren't ALRs. They were proof you went to a location, not that you did something silly at a location.

 

The ALRs on caches were the do something silly at a location. You take a regular cache with an ALR, distill it to remove the Geocaching part and what you're left with is Pure ALRtm. That's what I'm talking about when I say challenges are Pure ALRstm.

Link to comment

Virtuals have always been just ALRs. Taking a photo and posting it is also an ALR, as is sending some answers to the CO. Only that since there's no cache, so there's no "A".

Exactly. Since there's no A they weren't ALRs. They were proof you went to a location, not that you did something silly at a location.

 

The ALRs on caches were the do something silly at a location. You take a regular cache with an ALR, distill it to remove the Geocaching part and what you're left with is Pure ALRtm. That's what I'm talking about when I say challenges are Pure ALRstm.

 

You didn't quite get that point. You take a regular cache with an ALR. You remove the cache, what you have left is LRs. There's no "A" because the LRs aren't "additional" to anything any more.

 

That's what virtuals were and that's what challenges are now. What makes you think that you couldn't have had a virtual that makes you do something silly at the location?

Link to comment

You didn't quite get that point. You take a regular cache with an ALR. You remove the cache, what you have left is LRs. There's no "A" because the LRs aren't "additional" to anything any more.

I got your point. Unfortunately you like to be literal with the words. People are getting tired arguing with you over semantics. "Well this letter means that when it's before this word". This is not English class. The meaning is more important than the grammatical structure of the post.

 

That's what virtuals were and that's what challenges are now. What makes you think that you couldn't have had a virtual that makes you do something silly at the location?

I have never encountered any. If there were then I'm glad they're archived. But that proves my point doesn't it? The crappy virtuals are gone, the good ones remain. Challenges, they're all like the crappy virtuals and not like the good ones.

 

The point of the photo and questions on a Virtual were just proof you were there. If silly actions were allowed then it would be very easy to ban that in the guidelines if they were returned.

Edited by Avernar
Link to comment
I got your point. Unfortunately you like to be literal with the words. People are getting tired arguing with you over semantics. "Well this letter means that when it's before this word". This is not English class. The meaning is more important than the grammatical structure of the post.

I don't get the meaning though :unsure: Posting a picture or sending an answer to something is as much an ALR as standing on your head or wearing a silly hat. Unless you're only talking about "proof of having been there" kinda things, but virtuals were much more than that. Granted, there's not a lot of them around any more, most have really simple logging requirements now, but nobody said that they should have been that way.

 

I have never encountered any. If there were then I'm glad they're archived. But that proves my point doesn't it? The crappy virtuals are gone, the good ones remain. Challenges, they're all like the crappy virtuals and not like the good ones.

Yeah, that's why they have a voting system. Since it was impossible to make a subjective distinction between good and bad, the community is there to decide now. People really only wanted the "good" virtuals back, but nobody could ever say what exactly "good" was.

Edited by dfx
Link to comment

I don't get the meaning though :unsure: Posting a picture or sending an answer to something is as much an ALR as standing on your head or wearing a silly hat. Unless you're only talking about "proof of having been there" kinda things, but virtuals were much more than that. Granted, there's not a lot of them around any more, most have really simple logging requirements now, but nobody said that they should have been that way.

It's a subtle distinction. The "proof of having been there" LR/ALR were about the location. Take a picture of you at a location. Answer these questions about that location. You move the cache to somewhere else and those LR/ARLs would have to be rewritten. Location based.

 

The "silly action" LR/ALRs have nothing or very little to do with a location. You can wear a silly hat next to the CN Tower and you can move that to the Space Needle and it's the same LR/ALR. It's not location based at all.

 

That's what I mean by Pure ALRtm. It has nothing to do with location and location is the core of Geocaching.

 

Yeah, that's why they have a voting system. Since it was impossible to make a subjective distinction between good and bad, the community is there to decide now. People really only wanted the "good" virtuals back, but nobody could ever say what exactly "good" was.

They could have put a voting system on the old virtuals and webcams.

Link to comment
It's a subtle distinction. The "proof of having been there" LR/ALR were about the location. Take a picture of you at a location. Answer these questions about that location. You move the cache to somewhere else and those LR/ARLs would have to be rewritten. Location based.

 

The "silly action" LR/ALRs have nothing or very little to do with a location. You can wear a silly hat next to the CN Tower and you can move that to the Space Needle and it's the same LR/ALR. It's not location based at all.

 

That's what I mean by Pure ALRtm. It has nothing to do with location and location is the core of Geocaching.

Yes I agree with all that. But again, there was nothing about the old virtuals that prevented you from doing the same thing with them. Heck, they even had true "locationless" virtuals around, even though they were never supposed to be there. I'm sure you remember Four Windows.

 

They could have put a voting system on the old virtuals and webcams.

Not a good idea. I'd rather see a separate section of the website (or another website) flooded with people's bad ideas. I don't need them cluttering up my PQs and map views.

Link to comment

Yeah, that's why they have a voting system. Since it was impossible to make a subjective distinction between good and bad, the community is there to decide now. People really only wanted the "good" virtuals back, but nobody could ever say what exactly "good" was.

They could have put a voting system on the old virtuals and webcams.

You are not the first to make that suggestion. However, that solution would dissatisfy everyone who didn't want virts, webcams, and LCs back. This way, they get to come back but those that can't abide by them are unaffected. they don't clutter searches or PQs or show on the maps. Everyone is a winner.

 

(I was going to add that everyone accept those that can't abide the mere existence of anything that they don't like is a winner, but then I realized that, in my opinion, many of these people are only happy when complaining, so these people get to win, also.)

Edited by sbell111
Link to comment

What was a virtual cache? One which challenged the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

What is a Challenge? One which challenges the finder to go somewhere and do something. Go to the bridge at these coordinates and post a picture of you holding your GPS to prove that you were there.

 

It looks to me like Challenges replace Virts pretty darn well!

 

We asked Groundspeak to give us back virtuals, they did. What's the problem? :rolleyes:

 

It could replace virtuals. As implemented, they do not. With a virtual cache, there was an identified CO who was responsible for maintaining the listing; they were to delete finds that did not meet the cache requirements; they were expected to return to the site periodically; by and large, the task was directed to the location itself; prohibitons against agendas and commercial content were reviewed before a cache was published.

 

With challenges, I see unidentified listings; I see photo challenges "completed" without any photo being submitted; the creators do not have to assume responsibility; you can create any number of challenges without having completed the challenge yourself or even visited the location (if there is a location). I have seen challenges requiring you to purchase certain things - perhaps if enough people mark them as spam they will eventually get deleted, but it is not a clear process and there are no basic set of rules.

 

Even the old locationless were tied to the gps and monitored in ways that challenges are not.

 

Most challenges that I see are based less on location then on the old ALR type of task - do something funny at the location. That might have more to do with my personal aesthetic than the challenge itself. But the difference is marked by one of the first challenges in my area, which is to go to the site of a particular virtual and get your picture taken doing something that might be seen as funny, I suppose. If it was a virtual, I could put it on my ignore list -- here even if I decide I want to undertake challenges, there will be much more to wade through (perhaps depending on what happens with negative votes).

 

To make challenges more like the old virtuals, I would at least have an identified owner; guidelines on commercials and agendas; a location-based task; have the creator take responsibility for the listing and for reviewing submissions; require a "site visit" or some confirmation that the creator has first completed the challenge before it can be listed. I also would limit the numbers - once a month or once every three months - because it seems like it might encourage people to think more about quality.

Edited by geodarts
Link to comment
With a virtual cache, there was an identified CO who was responsible for maintaining the listing; they were to delete finds that did not meet the cache requirements; they were expected to return to the site periodically

 

... until the CO decided that they couldn't be bothered any more :anitongue:

Link to comment
With a virtual cache, there was an identified CO who was responsible for maintaining the listing; they were to delete finds that did not meet the cache requirements; they were expected to return to the site periodically

 

... until the CO decided that they couldn't be bothered any more :anitongue:

Exactly. To combat this problem, challenges rely on community involvement to monitor logs.

Link to comment
With a virtual cache, there was an identified CO who was responsible for maintaining the listing; they were to delete finds that did not meet the cache requirements; they were expected to return to the site periodically

 

... until the CO decided that they couldn't be bothered any more :anitongue:

Exactly. To combat this problem, challenges rely on community involvement to monitor logs.

 

I see that there is community involvement to rate challenges (thumbs up or thumbs down). I don't know what this will end up meaning in practical terms. But logs? The "take a hike" photo challenge has over 805 completions and only a few actual photos (less than 50)- including photos that do not meet the terms of the challenge (take a photo of yourself on a hike; most appear to be from old hikes that were done long before the challenge, which might be within the terms, but would not have qualified for most of the old virtuals or locationless.

 

The old virtuals and locationless had a CO that had the responsibility of monitoring submissions. Who is doing the monitoring here? It is true that some decided that they could not be bothered any more, but there was a much more defined process for those and many have ended up getting archived. Here, it seems that anything goes.

 

Here, there is a thumbs up or thumbs down. If a challenge has commercial content, you can mark it as spam, but Groundspeak only states that if enough people do that, it may end up getting archived. I am all in favor of community involvement. I am not sure that the process is in place to make it work.

Edited by geodarts
Link to comment
But logs? The "take a hike" photo challenge has 805 completions and five actual photos - including photos that do not meet the terms of the challenge (take a photo of yourself on a hike; appear to be from old hikes that were done long before the challenge; or is a statement saying "bring back virtuals."

 

Those locationless challenges are not comparable to virtuals. But in any case, all "completed" logs that I see in there have a picture attached. If you see one that doesn't, feel free to flag it (not sure if it's even possible to post one like that). And nobody says that you have to perform the required task after the challenge was created.

Link to comment

Case in point! I just completed my first "challenge" sitting here at my computer! Challenge was "Las Vegas Sign"...........Posted a pic I took back in April while caching around Vegas. WOW, now that's real Geocaching! Two smilies for the same pic! Think I'll pass on the new game! What's next..Geocaching Farmville?

Hoots!

As I understand your post, there is a challenge that requires you to go to the Las Vegas sign and take a pic. You went to the sign and took a pic. You submitted this pic as proof of completing the challenge.

 

What's your beef?

 

My "beef" is simply a cacher's ability to sit at a computer, play this silly new game and up their numbers without doing anything new! I don't have anything against new "games". I agree with other posters, It's only a game and you can choose to play it or not. BUT.......you shouldn't be able to increase your numbers as I just demonstrated! I say keep the challenges, just don't allow the completions to count as finds on GC.com!.....Hoots!

 

Another thing to consider! Geocaching has always required the use of a GPSr and a set of Co-ordinates. I can recall once being scolded by a reviewer for saying "you can find it without a GPS". He disallowed that statement saying it wasn't true caching if no GPS was needed. Wonder where that reviewer stands on this subject?

Edited by Inkahoots
Link to comment

Those locationless challenges are not comparable to virtuals. But in any case, all "completed" logs that I see in there have a picture attached. If you see one that doesn't, feel free to flag it (not sure if it's even possible to post one like that). And nobody says that you have to perform the required task after the challenge was created.

 

I was comparing the number of photos in the gallery with the number of logs, so that appears to be a limitation on the web page, which in itself is another distinction with the old virtuals. In any event, it is true that you do not have to perform the required task after the challenge was created, but I noted that as a difference between the challenges and the old virtuals or locationless caches - with the locationless it was standard practice to require a gpsr in the picture -- today that may not work as well, but the intent with most of the old caches was to respond to the cache itself.

 

If the purpose of a challenge is (as Groundspeak states) to get out and about, then digging through old photos is at least less challenging and does not address the title of the challenge itself: "Go Take a Hike" . . . which is different from Find a Picture of a Hike Taken in the Past.

 

It is another reason why I am hesitant to create a challenge at this time. If I challenge you to do something, I would like you to respond to that challenge. If it means going someplace again, or getting out on the trail again, or kissing another frog again, then so be it.

Edited by geodarts
Link to comment

But again, there was nothing about the old virtuals that prevented you from doing the same thing with them. Heck, they even had true "locationless" virtuals around, even though they were never supposed to be there. I'm sure you remember Four Windows.

Were there any? And four windows should have gotten a Needs Archive in that case.

 

Not a good idea. I'd rather see a separate section of the website (or another website) flooded with people's bad ideas. I don't need them cluttering up my PQs and map views.

You can filter out the stuff you don't want on the maps and PQs. Can't currently do any of that with the challenges.

Link to comment
Were there any? And four windows should have gotten a Needs Archive in that case.

Yeah eventually it did, but only after accumulating 9400+ found logs. And it wasn't the only example of its kind. I don't know of any "do some silly thing" virtuals myself (haven't been around long enough), but I'm sure somebody can come up with some examples. I know that most webcams that I did contained some silly additional task: wave a flag, hold something red, wear something green. Of course you can argue that those are meant to make yourself more visible, so that the picture makes a better proof, but that's the point: it's arguable. Is wearing a silly hat an arbitrary task, or is it relevant to the location if it's a statue of a famous hat maker (I think Hamilton has a monument to that effect)? That's exactly the kind of problems virtuals always had: subjectiveness. So this new approach eliminates this problem by letting people do anything they want, and then use to community votes to figure out which ones are good and which ones are bad. I don't know if it's gonna work out, but why not give it a try? :unsure:

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 3
×
×
  • Create New...