Inconsistent geocache approval

[Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by JustBeingJolly:

Volkswagen: Is Volkswagen a geocacher? I was always under the impression that they were an automobile manufacturer.

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Red herring. It is a customer appreciation geocaching event that both introduces VW owners to the hobby, and takes out existing geocachers on a unique geocaching adventure. GPS units will be provided and geocaching will be the theme of the event.

 

FYI, Volkswagen is a Corporation and a brand. Don't try to ask for Mr. Volkswagen at your local dealer. Volkswagen owners are those who own Volkswagen vehicles. A Geocaching event for Volkswagen owners is an event about geocaching and involves geocaching.

 

quote:

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Is the event corporate-sponsored, or locally sponsored by a VW club? The title of the event says "VW Club", yet the text says that "Volkswagen is seeking a select few...," which implies corporate.

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Most automobile manufacturers have customer clubs. Airstream has official club events for those who own their RVs. Jeep has their own club with events around the US.

 

quote:

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The VW club might hand out membership applications and information while corporate might hand out sales brochures and model information.

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This line of reasoning is irrelevant. The entire event is entirely geocaching. Ham Radio Events are events to discuss ham radio. Apples and oranges.

 

In this event it is specifically for current VW owners, but even if it was VW creating a cache event with prizes for all Geocachers it would still fit as a geocaching event. If geocaching is the theme of an event, it bears up to scrutiny.

 

quote:

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Do participants feel comfortable, or do they dread a possible sales pitch?

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Well, the page openly says it is a VW sponsored event. If you're uncomfortable with the ramifications of that sponsorship, don't get involved.

 

quote:

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Can a seeker find the cache, take an item, sign the logbook, and leave without having to interact with the amateurs, or must he ask the amateur(s) for insruction upon arriving at the event?

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You would call this an event? Sounds like a temporary cache, which breaks another guideline.

 

quote:

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Can you make some published guidelines for various members of the geocaching.com volunteers to guide them with what they have been tasked to do.

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Seems like they're doing a great job. If anything they're being too nice.

 

quote:

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Complaints and anger among the members is a symptom of something that needs to be addressed, and failure to do so, can jeopardize your investment

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Indeed. However you don't sit there and roll over every time someone gets noisy about their perceived unfairness of a cache being approved. Reasonable geocachers would come to the conclusion that a Ham Radio event is a Ham Radio Event, and not a Geocaching Event.

 

Perhaps people lose focus of the intent of the Geocaching.com web site. It isn't CitySearch.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by sbell111:

If a group such as one of these ham operator's groups were to include geocaching in their meeting agenda, perhaps even having a temporary cache for members to go after, would it be acceptable to submit it as an event?

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Good question. If a Ham Radio group had a Ham Radio Geocaching Event, which was an event where all Ham Radio folks went geocaching and invited other geocachers to discuss the benefits of both activities, it would certainly be appropriate. Same goes if the Xterra Club decided to do an Offroad Geocaching Tourney.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+Bull Moose]

This whole thread reminds me of an argument I had with some friends years ago about the appropriateness of Star Wars cast members appearing at Star Trek conventions.

[+sbell111]

Which side of the argument were you on?

[+Bull Moose]

quote:

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Originally posted by sbell111:

Which side of the argument were you on?

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I said they should let Star Wars people come because it had such a cross over many people would enjoy both. Besides, I wanted to meet Lando.

I was later vindicated when most Star Trek conventions became "sci-fi" conventions.

 

Anyway, kind of a silly argument, which was the point.

[+BillP3rd]

Maybe I'll regret by chiming in but here are my observations after reading the entire thread:

 

I understand and agree with the premise that Event Caches are/should be about Geocaching and directed towards Geocachers.

 

It's never occurred to me to make a search of the forums before posting a cache. I look at the Cache Types page and Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines.

 

The current Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines makes NO MENTION of Event Caches.

 

The Cache Types page says about Event Caches: "There have been many cases where geocachers want to meet up at a location to share experiences and make new friends. Event geocaches are locations to meet, and after the meeting these caches are archived."

 

Relating to the FD events, I ask "Is the poster of the event a geocacher?" Yup. "Is he seeking to meet up" with other Geocachers "at a location to share experiences and make new friends?" Sounds like. Given these only two "official guidelines" it seems to me that the two FD caches in question should be allowed.

 

Absent any rules or guidelines (specific or general) relating to Event Caches, the only reasonable guideline one would have to determine appropriateness would be "What's been done and approved before?". Without written rules (law) the only reasonable arbiter should be history (case law). Until the written rules are amended to clarify the "event caches are about geocaching and for geocachers" I feel that anyone conforming to "case law" should also be grandfathered. Don't change the rules and not tell anyone. All you're going to do is make people unhappy and hurt the sport of Geocaching.

 

I recognize that Jeremy and the Groundspeak folks are busy so from post above I'd like to propose the following text be added to the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines:

 

Event Caches should include significant geocaching activities, such as placing some caches to hunt (not just a logbook on a table or a temporary cache), hunting geocaches, GPS-games, an "Intro to Geocaching" class, and so forth. There should be enough geocaching content that if a geocacher shows up there would be enough geocaching to keep them busy for the duration of the event and make the event worthwhile. The geocaching portion should be able to stand on its own, without the some other event content.

 

Groundspeak can never make everyone happy but they should at least try to be consistent. Where there are misunderstandings they should make a reasonable to address them and, when appropriate, amend the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines to reflect/clarify the new policy. Don't change the rules and then not tell anyone. If this had been done in March when this apparently first came up we wouldn't be having this conversation now. (Perhaps a changelog at the end of Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines would help with future "misunderstandings" and provide support for a Groundspeak position/policy?)

 

Groundspeak should NOT rely on the forums to disseminate rules changes. The official arbiter should be Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines.

[+sbell111]

Wow! That was a long post. I'm going to try to remoember to read it sometime.

 

Now, back to the topic...

 

Of course, Star Wars characters should not appear at Star Trek conventions. They are from completely different fictional universes. The combination of the two may destroy the universe as we know it.

[+Bull Moose]

quote:

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Originally posted by sbell111:

Now, back to the topic...

 

Of course, Star Wars characters should not appear at Star Trek conventions. They are from completely different fictional universes. The combination of the two may destroy the universe as we know it.

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Hmm.. An interesting argument. Maybe I should stop writing that Kirk meets Darth Vader fan fiction for the sake of us all.

(No, not really. I'm a nerd, but not THAT big of a nerd.)

[real deal]

I don't feel that "50 plus Amateur Radio Operators, their families," ad nauseum are worthy of an Event Cache listing on Geocaching.com...

 

This above quote was courtesy of Jeremy Irish...one of the administrators of an organization that call themselves Geocachers...who has not been informed of APRS.

 

This so called "ad nauseum" is the predecessor of what we now enjoy as recreation...

using a GPS to identify and locate individuals, equipment etc. by means of satellite technology and radio communications...

 

Without this technology...by the way did I mention that the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League) put up the first APRS (Automated Positioning Radio System) which incorporated GPS (Ground Positioning System) for it's primary operating system?

 

Be that it may 50 plus families is nothing compared to the other millions of individuals from all parts of the world that are Amateur radio operators...

 

If indeed we are the "search engine" for "our" Geocache Society... let us not limit ourselves on how we can inform others about it...stopping ourselves short of having going commercialized by advertising sponsors...but to take advantage of the opportunity.

 

Survey how many Geocachers are Amateur radio operators as well...now survey how many people that have not had the opportunity to be informed about Geocache.com and it's society who are Amateur radio operators...

 

Now AD NAUSEUM!!!...

 

By the way I had fun along with several other individuals at this event. Discussion of Geocaching was foremost the topic and even encited a few other people, not only amateurs,

into Geocaching. We also used the GPS to set up various azimuths for antennae direction. It is really unfortunate that a prior posting of mine had been deleted overnight. It was a very cordial and sincere posting informing the people who dedicate their time and expertise to make Geocaching for what it is known today. If you are going to delete this message, then delete all the messages in this topic...

[+sbell111]

I agree.

 

Please delete all the messages in this topic.

[+WE4NCS]

I regret even mentioning this issue. My raising the issue destroyed the other event geocache. Geocahcing and ham radio are supposed to fun and enjoyment.

 

I screwed up and apologize to everyone involved!

 

There are more important issues to be discussed. Lets move on!