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New "Geocaching Challenges" caches


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I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering about these. I know there was another thread (or more) but it was confusing! :unsure: So can we have some clarification, please.

 

1. Will we still need to get landowner permission for publishing these new caches coming out this week? If a potential cache site is within a SSSI or a nature reserve, would a cacher need to wait for permission to place a challenge cache the same as for a physical/other type of cache? I can guess at the answer, but would like some clarification please. (For example, I am assuming that cemetery caches in the UK will still be out of bounds, but will we need to contact the councils for every town centre challenge we place?)

 

2. I have an idea for a multicache challenge, how would that work...Do I list the different coordinates for places to find and photograph all on the one cache page, and people post their photos in their logs?

 

3. Also, can we please know what the other challenge types will be (after the Photo and Action ones) as it will affect how we apply for permissions. There are some locations which are likely to be turned down for a physical cache but where a challenge cache might be permitted, given the right circumstances.

 

4. Do we need to be local to the area of our own Geocaching Challenges?

 

5. Does it matter how close to a physical cache these are? If there's an action cache just waiting in the same park as a traditional, is that too much?

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I can't answer most of those, as I don't believe these have been formerly announced, perhaps in the next weekly mailing?

 

When asked about the return of Virtuals (or their replacement) at the Q&A at Mega Wales, Jeremy stated they would be a way of bring people to a place of interest which maybe too sensitive for a physical container.

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As the full details of the new Geocaching Challenges have not been released yet (only some tantalising snippets to pique our interest) I don't think anyone's in a position to answer the questions in the OP.

 

Just about everything I've read so far in other threads has been speculation - Fun, but not necessarily fact.

 

I think we should all have a good weekend, celebrate the First Official World Geocaching Day, then resume this discussion on Monday. :D

 

MrsB ;)

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Thank you for the link, dfx! I'd seen the videos but skipped the podcast. Very informative, well worth turning off the TV for!

 

Well Jeremy Irish seemed to be calling them caches in the podcast, I think, possibly. :unsure:

 

So, these can be placed in US national parks where a physical container cannot be placed because of a ruling about not leaving something in those locations for over 24 hours. Also good for high muggle tourist areas where there's a great monument or view or somewhere with something fun to do or an adventure to take part in. (But not to do with a location which refuses geocache placement due to the need to reduce footfall or site sensitivity for other reasons such as conservation of protected species or protected geological sites where human traffic has already worn down an area).

 

I love the crane idea at the museum. I am getting some creative ideas for my area already. There's an artist I need to write to for permission to feature his work, I think. :):ph34r:

So the saturation guidelines do not apply here, so that answers number 5. (And the community respond with thumbs up and thumbs down to address the quality (popularity). This is also used to determine whether the challenges are tasteful or appropriate. :unsure: That will work in some places better than others I think.)

 

Oh..So the commercial aspect doesn't apply either! Wow that opens up a huge number of possibilities to a lot of different people! (Can't think of any right now, but I can see how it could open things up for, say, young families).

 

I spent several hours walking around some other suburbs of my town today, looking for some cool places to set caches. They just weren't quite up to the mark, and it was so disappointing. These challenges are really exciting, lots of creativity here. Oh, and I'm getting some more ideas about my area which would make a boring micro into something much more fun and interesting, I'm sure lots of other people are too.

 

The planned release is tomorrow, 18th. (After the site down time, I guess.) I would have thought it would be better to get some of this clarified beforehand.

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As the full details of the new Geocaching Challenges have not been released yet (only some tantalising snippets to pique our interest) I don't think anyone's in a position to answer the questions in the OP.

 

Just about everything I've read so far in other threads has been speculation - Fun, but not necessarily fact.

 

I think we should all have a good weekend, celebrate the First Official World Geocaching Day, then resume this discussion on Monday. :D

 

MrsB ;)

 

It's OK Mrs B, I'm not in a rush to publish something! I'm already having ideas about these though, so I just want to try to put my efforts into something worthwhile. I'm sure I'm not the only one! (I bet there are a number of long-standing UK geocachers who have their challenge ideas all lined up already! :rolleyes: ) I've had a lot of ideas for traditional caches over the last couple of years which never got to a cache page because they weren't offering anything extra or bringing out the best in the location, and this is showing some other possibilities. (For some locations, at least).

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I am assuming that cemetery caches in the UK will still be out of bounds, but will we need to contact the councils for every town centre challenge we place?)

 

 

Cemetery's are no more out of bounds than SSSI's or any other area requiring proof of permission....ie If the incumbent or managing authority (such as the parish council or local council) says it's OK, there's nothing to stop you hiding any cache in a cemetery. :)

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OK, the newsletter is out.

 

- Only Premium Members can set a challenge, and only one per day

- It looks like instead of "go to a point and EMail an answer", it's "go to a point, and use the new Challenges App to prove you were there"

- Yes, App based, iPhone, Android or Windows Mobile.

- Peer reviewed, you give it a thumbs up or thumbs down when you log it.

 

Jeremy has said they will count towards your find count.

 

I guess we will find out more tonight, after the website update.

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So as I am a Premium member without iPhone, Android or Windows Mobile I am disenfranchised. I can't set em and I suppose I can't get 'em. :(

 

Sheesh!

 

The wording on this page "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i2DOZo_67U" says "You'll also be able to explore Geocaching Challenges through a free smartphone app", so it sounds like they will be open to traditional GPS users.

Edited by Jaz666
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Jeremy has said they will count towards your find count.

 

Well, not exactly. He said that there would basically be 2 different counts on your profile, one for standard caches and one for challenges.

 

Another cool thing he did say (imho) was that if you are out and about with a mobile device and stumble upon a fantastic location to create a challenge, such as a photo challenge then you would be able to create a listing out there in the field without having to return to your PC and write it up.

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Just logged my first challenge :laughing:

 

To start with there will be two types of challenge.

- Photo

- Action

 

Looking at the early test challenges, one of the things we will be able to do is to experience the old locationless caches again as a challenge.

Edited by Jaz666
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Dave: I don't think you'll be missing out on a lot anyway. Many waymarks require that you take a photo, and others suggest that you take some sort of action (e.g. play a round of crazy golf). Challenges are pretty much the same.

 

The big difference is that these will increment a figure on your geocaching profile, and that they have an app. So they are really for people that care about those two aspects.

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So as I am a Premium member without iPhone, Android or Windows Mobile I am disenfranchised. I can't set em and I suppose I can't get 'em. :(

 

Sheesh!

 

As I understand it from just listening to the podcast, I don't think it's exclusive to smartphones. In fact they said you can create them via their website (like you would a normal cache listing). I think they are just pushing the apps given that it's unlikely that traditional GPS will fully support challenges at launch. (They've even said you'll be unable to pocket query them at launch)

 

UPDATE: Found this on the Groundspeak blog: "We’re also releasing a whole new set of mobile applications for Challenges, on the iPhone, Android and Windows Phone 7. We expect that this new activity will be primarily accessed through these free applications, though we’ll continue to support GPS devices."

Edited by figures
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... and others suggest that you take some sort of action (e.g. play a round of crazy golf). Challenges are pretty much the same.
Play a round of crazy golf? For goodness sake, this is supposed to be a geocache listing site :mad: .

 

Rgds, Andy

 

LOL.....I know, these seem even less cache-like than waymarks did - what's the betting they'll be moved across to yet another Groundspeak site within a year?

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... and others suggest that you take some sort of action (e.g. play a round of crazy golf). Challenges are pretty much the same.
Play a round of crazy golf? For goodness sake, this is supposed to be a geocache listing site :mad: .

 

Rgds, Andy

 

LOL.....I know, these seem even less cache-like than waymarks did - what's the betting they'll be moved across to yet another Groundspeak site within a year?

 

They must be really, really bored up there in the Frog Pond

Edited by Pharisee
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Hmmm, I think I shall have to start a new Ignore list.

 

Well, of course, we haven't seen how they work on the GC.com site yet but I have downloaded the iPhone App to have a look at the test challenges that they have left in there (tip : search the App Store using "Groundspeak" rather than "Geocaching" or "Challenges" - it's way easier to find). Conspicuously, there is no "ignore" button - well, none that I can see. You can flag a challenge as "Prohibited", "Offensive", "Spam" or "Unplayable" if that's the thing though !

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Nooooooooo! We should view it as a GOOD thing!

Perhaps it will keep lazy smartphone loggers away from proper caches :D

 

 

 

Mark

 

Ok, so you might have had "tongue firmly in cheek" there but I see a grain of truth. The analogy being; the toddler pool at the swimming baths - it keeps those that just want to mess around out of the way of the serious swimmers.

 

(He says, inviting a flame-war)

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"We’re also releasing a whole new set of mobile applications for Challenges, on the iPhone, Android and Windows Phone 7. We expect that this new activity will be primarily accessed through these free applications, though we’ll continue to support GPS devices."

 

......ahhhh, so! :o

That does not say "You will be able to use a GPS device for this" :unsure:

 

I read it as they are not dropping the the GPS/box hunting/log signing side of caching...

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Hmmm, I think I shall have to start a new Ignore list.

Well, of course, we haven't seen how they work on the GC.com site yet but I have downloaded the iPhone App to have a look at the test challenges that they have left in there (tip : search the App Store using "Groundspeak" rather than "Geocaching" or "Challenges" - it's way easier to find). Conspicuously, there is no "ignore" button - well, none that I can see. You can flag a challenge as "Prohibited", "Offensive", "Spam" or "Unplayable" if that's the thing though !

Maybe if enough of us would mark every single one as "offensive" then we could make them go away.

 

Let's get one thing clear. I have no objection to these new challenges, or to waymarks, or to virtuals, etc. Indeed, I'm all in favour of them. But not here - this is a geocache listing site. None of these are geocaches, and some are nothing like geocaches. There already are sites for some of these other things, and for challenges, whatever they might turn out to be, a new site easily could be created.

 

It seems the case that some "geocachers" are less interested in geocaching than they are in increasing their "geocache find count" by any means, whether it actually involves finding a geocache or not.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited by Amberel
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The way I look at it is a challenge of playing a game of tennis at a free tennis courts, or getting together with some friends and having a kickabout, or quick cricket (or something else sporty) is better than just finding a micro in the sports park.

 

What about trig point challenges, where you take your photo beside the pillar? I like the idea of having a whole series of those on the map. But fair do's, some people won't like it. But that has been the case with geocaches.

 

Where there are interesting things to do and see in towns it could be a way to highlight some of the best a place has to offer. Trouble is, one person's idea of what is 'best' is vastly different from someone else's, especially if people think it might mean they might sell more of their burgers/coffee/cinema tickets and start encouraging their customers to publish challenges about their stores. <_<:mad: I just wonder if (and hope) it will mean people will start to get a bit more creative with geocaches as well, and it will spark off an idea or two that brings something different to geocache hides in the country too, something we haven't seen much of that more people are willing to have a go at.

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It seems the case that some "geocachers" are less interested in geocaching than they are in increasing their "geocache find count" by any means, whether it actually involves finding a geocache or not.

 

No offense, Andy (you know me in person so you know this isn't a flame at you) but I hear this time and time again. I'll admit, I do really, really enjoy the numbers aspect of the 'sport'. It's what motivates me to cache. I don't expect that to hold true for everyone - we all play the game our own way. But everything gets blamed at 'numbers cachers' as if we're sat at home armchair logging, not caring about cache quality. Trust me, after a weekend I've just had where I found 174 physical caches all on my own, quality does matter (it would get pretty boring pretty quickly otherwise).

 

Challenges will open caching to areas that have previously been closed (such as some historical buildings / monuments). From a commercial aspect it'll also allow Groundspeak to move in to territory where games such as 4square and Gowalla have made massive inroads.

 

I too have worries about this though. One of the reasons I don't do other 'brands' of caching is because I think some of their locationless caches I've seen are a bit... well naff. And I worry that we'll see silly meaningless challenges, and as much as I want to increase my find count, it'll take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

 

I think the answer is to create some really fun and quality challenges, both photo and action. Set the bar high for others to emulate, make them both fun and meaningful. I have an idea for a photo series which I plan to implement and I hope others will contribute challenges as well.

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For me, Geocaching used to be all about getting outdoors on my own to find boxes in interesting locations on long walks.

These days I still occasionally enjoy the odd solo walk, but I now get more enjoyment from Geocaching with my family.

I have a toddler, and a wife who doesn't enjoy walking as much as me, so doing the type of caching I used to enjoy with my family is very difficult.

 

If the Challenges allow us to have fun outdoors with a GPS, but still under the banner of "Geocaching", then I welcome it.

 

Groundspeak have tried launching other GPS games under various headers in the past, but they were always criticised for not being part of their biggest venture, the Geocaching Listing site, and therefore didn't get the following they deserved.

 

The call to bring back Virtuals, and Locationless Caches was the biggest topic on the feedback site.

Groundspeak have responded by bringing in something different that still covers what those two Grandfathered cache types did, for those who were interested in them.

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Rather than replying separately to the last three posters, this is a combined response.

 

> The way I look at it is a challenge of playing a game of tennis at a free tennis courts,

> or getting together with some friends and having a kickabout, or quick cricket

> (or something else sporty) is better than just finding a micro in the sports park.

 

All of that is just fine. I hope you don't think I have no other interests than caching, as I certainly do :lol: . I just cannot see ANY point in logging a kickabout as a geocache find. It's nothing whatsoever to do with geocaching. It doesn't belong on a geocache listing site.

 

> Challenges will open caching to areas that have previously been closed

> (such as some historical buildings / monuments). From a commercial aspect

> it'll also allow Groundspeak to move in to territory where games such as 4square

> and Gowalla have made massive inroads.

 

With respect, it is not bringing CACHING to areas that have previously been closed, because the examples I've seen are not caching or anything resembling it. It brings SOMETHING to these areas, but it's not caching, and therefore it doesn't belong on a geocache listing site. The locationless TerraCaches you mention are an example of just how stupid things can get when you let this happen.

 

You have quoted examples of other sites offering alternative activities, so why not use them? If they want to, Groundspeak could set up alternative sites catering for these other activities. Why must these alternative activities be shoehorned onto a geocache listing site when they have so little in common with geocaching?

 

> If the Challenges allow us to have fun outdoors with a GPS, but still

> under the banner of "Geocaching", then I welcome it.

 

But it is NOT geocaching. You can have fun outdoors with a GPS using any number of sites that have been set up for that very purpose, but geocaching.com is a CACHE listing site. Why do you feel you must put these other things on a geocache listing site when there are more appropriate alternatives?

 

The reason for my comment about the geocache find count being more important than the activity was because folks seem to want to increase their "geocache find" smiley count for almost ANY activity, no matter how remote the connection to geocaching.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited by Amberel
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You have quoted examples of other sites offering alternative activities, so why not use them? If they want to, Groundspeak could set up alternative sites catering for these other activities. Why must these alternative activities be shoehorned onto a geocache listing site when they have so little in common with geocaching?

Because they're afraid it would be a second Waymarking if they put it elsewhere :anitongue:

 

Honestly I don't have a big problem with those things being listed on gc.com, as long as they're kept separate and people realize that it's not caching. After all, benchmarks are listed here too even though they don't really fit, and it works quite well that way. On the other hand, this thread already makes me afraid that people will not realize that it's not caching.

Edited by dfx
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It seems the case that some "geocachers" are less interested in geocaching than they are in increasing their "geocache find count" by any means, whether it actually involves finding a geocache or not.

 

No offense, Andy (you know me in person so you know this isn't a flame at you) but I hear this time and time again. I'll admit, I do really, really enjoy the numbers aspect of the 'sport'. It's what motivates me to cache. I don't expect that to hold true for everyone - we all play the game our own way. But everything gets blamed at 'numbers cachers' as if we're sat at home armchair logging, not caring about cache quality. Trust me, after a weekend I've just had where I found 174 physical caches all on my own, quality does matter (it would get pretty boring pretty quickly otherwise).

 

Challenges will open caching to areas that have previously been closed (such as some historical buildings / monuments). From a commercial aspect it'll also allow Groundspeak to move in to territory where games such as 4square and Gowalla have made massive inroads.

 

I too have worries about this though. One of the reasons I don't do other 'brands' of caching is because I think some of their locationless caches I've seen are a bit... well naff. And I worry that we'll see silly meaningless challenges, and as much as I want to increase my find count, it'll take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

 

I think the answer is to create some really fun and quality challenges, both photo and action. Set the bar high for others to emulate, make them both fun and meaningful. I have an idea for a photo series which I plan to implement and I hope others will contribute challenges as well.

 

I think on balance I have to agree with Amberel.

 

I like the numbers aspect of the game, I like an FTF hunt, I like having an excuse to explore random places on my bike. If a cache is a film pot under a bench outside McDonalds then so be it, if I don't want to hunt for it when I get there I won't, and if the chance of cycling any distance only to find a film pot under a bench bothers me then I'll be a little more selective in my file outputs than "all caches I haven't found".

 

Waymarking seemed like an interesting idea at first but when I started to see branches of McDonalds listed as waymarks it suddenly seemed like a potentially very dull idea. You could spend time looking for things like London's coal posts (which I knew nothing about before geocaching took me to them), or spend time visiting every single McDonalds / Wally World / whatever within whatever counts as striking distance from home. I can see using geocaching to find interesting places when away from home (I found a few spectacular vistas in the US purely because someone put a cache) but really can't imagine taking the time out to visit the local Wal-Mart just to take a photo of myself grinning inanely at the camera in order to bag another waymark.

 

Just as geocaching has the guideline in place to ask why a cache is being placed, and the notion that placing a film pot at the base of a post just because there are no other caches within 528 feet isn't really a good reason to place a cache, at least the saturation rule means that not every post has a film pot at its base. If we see too many things that don't have this proximity guideline I can see the geocaching site being swamped with quasi-challenges like "eat a burger at McDonalds and post a photo", closely followed by "drink a coffee at Starbucks and post a photo". They might be "location based games" but surely nobody really needs to use a GPS to find their local McDonalds.

 

If they really must be included on the main geocaching database I'd really like a way to make sure they don't appear on my maps or in my pocket queries.

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You have quoted examples of other sites offering alternative activities, so why not use them? If they want to, Groundspeak could set up alternative sites catering for these other activities. Why must these alternative activities be shoehorned onto a geocache listing site when they have so little in common with geocaching?

Because they're afraid it would be a second Waymarking if they put it elsewhere :anitongue:

If the activities were popular for their own sake it would succeed as a separate entity. If it failed to take off as a separate entity, it would demonstrate that the activity itself was not the driving factor, but it was merely a means of racking up cheap "found it" smilies.

 

Rgds, Andy

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Indeed, I'm all in favour of them. But not here

There are 100,000 caches in the UK. If it bothers you, just ignore them

Hopefully we will be able to - whether we can or not remains to be seen.

 

But it would be much better if people just used the alternative facilities already available than clutter up a geocache listing site with stuff that has not the slightest connection to geocaching.

 

Rgds, Andy

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You have quoted examples of other sites offering alternative activities, so why not use them? If they want to, Groundspeak could set up alternative sites catering for these other activities. Why must these alternative activities be shoehorned onto a geocache listing site when they have so little in common with geocaching?

Because they're afraid it would be a second Waymarking if they put it elsewhere :anitongue:

If the activities were popular for their own sake it would succeed as a separate entity. If it failed to take off as a separate entity, it would demonstrate that the activity itself was not the driving factor, but it was merely a means of racking up cheap "found it" smilies.

 

That's another way of saying the same thing. Smilies are a good incentive to make geocachers do geocaching unrelated stuff. Earthcaches, anyone? :laughing:

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Just as geocaching has the guideline in place to ask why a cache is being placed, and the notion that placing a film pot at the base of a post just because there are no other caches within 528 feet isn't really a good reason to place a cache, at least the saturation rule means that not every post has a film pot at its base. If we see too many things that don't have this proximity guideline I can see the geocaching site being swamped with quasi-challenges like "eat a burger at McDonalds and post a photo", closely followed by "drink a coffee at Starbucks and post a photo". They might be "location based games" but surely nobody really needs to use a GPS to find their local McDonalds.

 

I agree. These sort of challenges worry me. However if it's more a case of "Take a picture of yourself at Stonehenge" (as an example, I know there's already a virtual) where it would not be possible to place a physical cache, I see it as no worse than a good virtual. I'd personally like to see trigpoints as challenge photo caches, especially as I refuse to log ye old survey monuments more than once (just a personal preference).

 

My other worry is that with no proximity guidelines, we'll see some locations get multiple challenges (i.e. take a picture of you running / smiling / eating a burger / etc.) There may be a case for a location having more than one challenge but it should be the exception. I tried Waymarking a while back and whilst I thought some categories were good a lot were like you say.

 

I think the key is that just as a cache needs a reason to be placed, I think challenge caches need a reason as well, either to discover something or do something pretty unique you'd not do otherwise. That's why I think rather than just ignoring them, those who have concerns should try and set the bar. However, like any caches... one man's bad cache is another man's favourite.

Edited by figures
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What about trig point challenges, where you take your photo beside the pillar? I like the idea of having a whole series of those on the map.

But we already have over 4000 of those on a Groundspeak site; U.K. and Ireland Trigpoints. And that's on top of Trigpointing UK. Why would we want a third one?

 

Precisely because they are on a different website. I do like the Waymarking idea, but just haven't got into it. It's another thing to think about.

 

I'll put it like this: I like the idea of, say doing the Severn Way walk in bits, on and off. I've already done some of the caches along the Severn way so that won't record my progress. I'd like to be able to record how much of it I do from now on, on my geocaching account. So how about having one of these challenge caches every mile or half mile along this type of national trail? I wouldn't want it to blend in with either the geocaches or the other types of challenges, so it would be good if this type of challenge were a completely different 'walker's' app which can overlay onto your own beta map, and the geocaching.com app, if you have the app, and be downloaded as PQs (eventually) or if you don't want the app, you don't have to have it. The advantage is you can record these challenges as done and tick off another mile without breaking stride, and it's clear how much you have left to do. If people want to cheat themselves and pretend they have done the walks when they haven't to rack up smileys, I really don't care, it's none of my business. The only smiley count I'm vaguely interested in is my own.

 

I don't think I want any fast food burger chains showing up on my map. It's the antithesis of what geocaching means to me. I would want fast food/chain store related challenges to be a separate category which we can choose to ignore without losing anything else.

 

OK, I have taken in that the challenges are NOT geocaches, I've got that now. :rolleyes: I have to agree that it's going to be confusing. If we do get a significant number of these they could change how people new to the game treat geocaches. It could have a detrimental affect on geocaching and getting people to understand the need to sign the paper log book could be about to become a good deal harder!

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Waymarking seemed like an interesting idea at first but when I started to see branches of McDonalds listed as waymarks it suddenly seemed like a potentially very dull idea. You could spend time looking for things like London's coal posts (which I knew nothing about before geocaching took me to them), or spend time visiting every single McDonalds / Wally World / whatever within whatever counts as striking distance from home. I can see using geocaching to find interesting places when away from home (I found a few spectacular vistas in the US purely because someone put a cache) but really can't imagine taking the time out to visit the local Wal-Mart just to take a photo of myself grinning inanely at the camera in order to bag another waymark.

I don't want to bang on about Waymarking too much (if I haven't already!), but one of its strengths is that you can make a category disappear altogether. So I (as an example) never see any Walmarts or McDonalds because I eliminated them all at the start with a couple of mouse clicks. It's as if they don't get listed at all. I've found a coal post or two and some petroglyphs, a wind harp, trig points and some other interesting stuff and they tend to take you somewhere that you wouldn't normally know about in a way that works better than a geocache.

 

I would assume that the new Challenges also allow you to eliminate the types you're not interested in. If not, it's doomed!

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What about trig point challenges, where you take your photo beside the pillar? I like the idea of having a whole series of those on the map.

But we already have over 4000 of those on a Groundspeak site; U.K. and Ireland Trigpoints. And that's on top of Trigpointing UK. Why would we want a third one?

 

Precisely because they are on a different website. I do like the Waymarking idea, but just haven't got into it. It's another thing to think about.

 

 

On that Waymarking site, the nearest one to me is about 100 miles away. When I ever get to one and see it so I can log I've found it (or when I've found 100) I might start getting into publishing/recording some. Also, those are not trig points, they are bench marks! I'm not interested in benchmarks so much. It's the mounting points for a theodolite I like, on the top of a trig pillar. (call me weird!) :laughing:

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Ooh, got to go and have a look now. (Can't see any information/link from your profile or geocache history, Mrs. B. There is no linky. maybe that will turn out to be a good thing all round! :laughing::ph34r: )

 

You're right: Although the challenge is listed there on our tab "Geocaches Found" there doesn't seem to be any way to provide a link to our (my) log and photograph of me kissing a frog. Hmmmm. You could be right... That may be a good thing ;)

 

As for it being "utter trash", I'm prepared to wait and see how it all develops over the next few weeks. The experience of having to find a suitably compliant frog to kiss, taking a photograph, uploading it and writing a brief comment log was marginally more interesting than finding some film pot in an un-inspiring location and trying to sign the obligatory damp log strip.

 

MrsB

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