+cachew nut Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Jamie Z: quote:Originally posted by cachew nut:...perhaps they should be in a hint instead of displayed, for when you really need them. Parking coordinates in the hint will land you in the "Useless Hint" thread. Tell me how parking coordinates are gonna help me when I'm stumbling around in the woods looking for a little box. I _do_ understand what you mean... but I think putting them in the hint (spelled out?) isn't going to help much, since no one will know they're there... And personally, I'd be aggrevated if I couldn't find the cache and the dern hint tells me where to park. Jamie I guess I should have been clearer, I sorta meant another field on the page like the hint field that required decryption or a mouse click to reveal, instead of always displayed. That way if you want to see them you have the option instead of it being forced upon you. Or maybe displayed only on printer friendly pages, or anything but always displayed. Link to comment
+Kite and Hawkeye Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 quote:Originally posted by cachew nut: quote:Originally posted by Jamie Z: quote:Originally posted by cachew nut:...perhaps they should be in a hint instead of displayed, for when you really need them. Parking coordinates in the hint will land you in the "Useless Hint" thread. Tell me how parking coordinates are gonna help me when I'm stumbling around in the woods looking for a little box. I _do_ understand what you mean... but I think putting them in the hint (spelled out?) isn't going to help much, since no one will know they're there... And personally, I'd be aggrevated if I couldn't find the cache and the dern hint tells me where to park. Jamie I guess I should have been clearer, I sorta meant another field on the page like the hint field that required decryption or a mouse click to reveal, instead of always displayed. That way if you want to see them you have the option instead of it being forced upon you. Or maybe displayed only on printer friendly pages, or anything but always displayed. What I don't understand is how simply seeing parking coordinates on a page can spoil things. If you don't see them mapped, or put actual brain power into interpreting how they differ from the cache coordinates, what is spoiled? If you can glance at a set of coordinates and instantly know where it is.. you've been Geocaching too long At any rate, parking coordinates, if they exist, are currently located at some random point in the cache description, generally in the clear (let's not get started on people who put them in the hint). What a new field would do is make it easier to glance at a cache and see whether parking coordinates have been supplied. I don't care much about the ease of downloading, or lack thereof, because there's no software that will work on my computer to do that; hiding parking coordinates in some GPX file or whatnot doesn't help me, and I am sad that that's Jeremy's proposed solution. It won't kill me to keep scanning cache descriptions and highlighting the parking coordinates if they're given, but I think it would be nice to standardize their location on the page for ease of use. Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Kite & Hawkeye:What I don't understand is how simply seeing parking coordinates on a page can spoil things. quote:Originally posted by Kite & Hawkeye:What a new field would do is make it easier to glance at a cache and see whether parking coordinates have been supplied. quote:Originally posted by Kite & Hawkeye:It won't kill me to keep scanning cache descriptions and highlighting the parking coordinates if they're given, but I think it would be nice to standardize their location on the page for ease of use. I hate to keep repeating something I already posted, but here it is again, in case my explanation wasn't understandable. When parking coordinates are given on a page, to me it means that I should use them, because finding parking is next to impossible, or to start from a particular spot because of some scenery or point of interest I might miss if I did not start there. The problem with having parking coordinates displayed on every page is that future hiders may start filling out those fields because if there is a place to enter them, they may feel obligated to do so. So now when I'm planning a route, I would plan it using the parking coordinates, in order not to miss something the hider might want to be showing me. That's fine with me if that is the intention of the hider. However if coordinates are put on the page to simply make it easier to find the cache, then I'd prefer to have them encrypted. This would indicate to me that they are being given as a spoiler for close parking, but not trying to show me anything in particular. Additionally, if all cache pages now have parking coordinates, the game will have been significantly changed from how it was played in the past when parking coordinates were not given. I agree with Jeremy's decision not to include them. While I can see the need for parking coordinates in some cases, I don't want to see them in all cache pages, or even most cache pages. What I wouldn't have a problem with, is parking coordinates assigned particular attributes, a differentiation between the hider wanting to show you something interesting, as opposed to a hint for making your search easier. Link to comment
+Markwell Posted December 18, 2002 Author Share Posted December 18, 2002 We're going 'round and 'round - and we're not going to agree. So, my last thoughts to cachew nut regarding hidden parking coordinates (feel free to reply, but I'm done after this): A) People have to take readings to get parking coordinates. That shows forethought. A hider would have to be at the cache site and say to himself - "Man, parking is tough here. I better take some parking coordinates." If he doesn't do that, he won't have coordinates to enter. If these fields were implemented, I don't think you'll see parking coordinates with any more frequency than we currently have. It sounds like your issue is a problem with how you want to conduct yourself on a cache hunt with provided parking coordinates. Just because parking coordinates are provided doesn't mean you have to use them. They'd be like encrypted hints. Not all cache have them, and just because a cache HAS an encrypted hint doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. The way you get around the problem you've laid out is to consider ALL parking coordinates non-essential hints. Don't use any of them unless you're stuck for parking. Then manually enter them into your GPS. quote:Additionally, if all cache pages now have parking coordinates, the game will have been significantly changed from how it was played in the past when parking coordinates were not given.How so? I have links to my caches above that already show parking coordinates. As I stated, I don't think you'll see an increase in frequency. How about a compromise? A check box for "Parking Coordinates Essential". That way, I could still download all the parking coordinates I wanted, and people who scan through the pages can make the decision of how THEY want to play the game. If the parking coordinates were essential, you really need to park there to avoid problems (law, land owners, etc.). If the parking coordinates were non-essential - it's just a suggested spot. There may be others that are better. Markwell Chicago Geocaching [This message was edited by Markwell on December 18, 2002 at 02:46 PM.] Link to comment
+cachew nut Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Markwell:We're going 'round and 'round - and we're not going to agree. So, my last thoughts to cachew nut (feel free to reply, but I'm done after this): We might not agree, but this is a forum where these things get discussed before they are implemented. I'd hate to see something get put in hastily without a proper discussion to only later find out there are regrets. quote:Originally posted by Markwell:A) People have to take readings to get parking coordinates. That shows forethought. A hider would have to be at the cache site and say to himself - "Man, parking is tough here. I better take some parking coordinates." If he doens't do that, he won't have coordinates to enter. If these fields were implemented, I don't think you'll see parking coordinates with any more frequency than we currently have. I'm not sure that there is even that much thought process that goes into it. I've made it a habit to always mark the location of my car, and I would suspect most others do this as well. You learn this early on in the game, usually after the first time you find a cache but realize you forgot where you parked. If your GPS saves tracks you can figure out where you parked as well and retrieve the parking coordinates, so a a lot of forethought isn't really necessary, the information is usually already there. quote:Originally posted by Markwell: It sounds like you have an interpretation problem with how you want to conduct yourself on a cache hunt with parking. Just because parking coordinates are provided doesn't mean you have to use them. They'd be like encrypted hints. Not all cache have them, and just because a cache HAS an encrypted hint doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. The way you get around the problem you've laid out is to consider ALL parking coordinates non-essential hints. Don't use any of them unless you're stuck for parking. Then manually enter them into your GPS. I'm not the one who has problems with parking coordinates, but I will if they start appearing on all of the cache pages. If parking coordinates are given, I use them because I assume they were put there for a reason. Perhaps to keep me from trampling through sensitive areas of a park, or to make sure I see something along the way. If they are non-essential, then what's the point of having them? I could somewhat see your point that if perhaps I was only going to find a few caches a month, locally, that I could pretty much disregard the parking coordinates, especially if I'm familiar with how to get to the area. But when I cache hunt out my local area, I plan ahead using maps, photos etc. so that I can maximize my caching adventure. I'm not sure what I will see in a place far from home, so when I'm planning my route and parking coordinates are put in the description, I assume they were meant to be used and not disregarded. Now that I've explained why I don't want to see them displayed, you will understand why I'm opposed to the idea. Don't take it personally, It's just that while having them there may make it better for you, it will make it worse for me. quote:Originally posted by cachew nut: Additionally, if all cache pages now have parking coordinates, the game will have been significantly changed from how it was played in the past when parking coordinates were not given. quote:Originally posted by Markwell:How so? You must be kidding. quote:Originally posted by Markwell: I have links to my caches above that already show parking coordinates. As I stated, I don't think you'll see an increase in frequency. Let's take a look at one of your caches, I'll put it in quotes: quote: from Markwell's cache page:The best parking for this cache is near N 41° 37.860 W088° 31.252. There is also parking available from the west entrance, but if you want a GORGEOUS walk, start here Essential or non-essential? Probably non-essential, but if I ignore them I may miss out on the gorgeous walk. What would I do? I would use them since you posted them openly on your page, and I want to see what it is you are trying to share with me. It's probably a great cache, I haven't been there but I can say that because I know you and I expect that from you. I guarantee that that is not the case with every cache I have hunted. So why give the parking coordinates for some cache littered with old mattresses and beer cans at a hobo camp? So that I can get there faster? If I had parking coordinates for each cache I went after, I would have missed out on a lot, like using a rope to get to a cache down an embankment and then finding a trail, sneaking up on some deer, finding an old boat house prison, etc. On top of that, I like reading in the logs about the different adventures the finders had getting to the cache. It would be pretty boring reading carbon copies of the same log...parked the car and walked .2 miles down the path to the cache, saw a fallen tree nearby. quote:How about a compromise? A check box for "_Parking Coordinates Essential_". That way, I could still download all the parking coordinates I wanted, and people who scan through the pages can make the decision of how THEY want to play the game. If the parking coordinates were essential, you really need to park there to avoid problems (law, land owners, etc.). If the parking coordinates were non-essential - it's just a suggested spot. There may be others that are better. I like the idea of a compromise but in this example I might or might not miss that gorgeous walk. I do think though we might be understanding what the other wants and there might be a different solution that would work for everyone. I had an idea that maybe there can be a field where the visibility is toggled by the hider, but a pocket query would create an additional e-book of parking coordinates, or even puts them in another appendix of the pocket query, but that doesn't address the problem of people just filling in the field anyway. At this point, the only way I could see this as a compromise where it's win-win is this: Have a parking field that can have the visibility toggled by the hider AND not have the blank fields on the hiding form. Entering the parking fields would be done after the form is completed by going in to edit the page. The parking coordinates could be downloaded from a pocket query, right into Easy GPS or into the GPS unit, same format as regular waypoints. The cache pages would not show the parking coordinates unless the hider gave them a visibility option, but the pocket query would have some options as well, like ALL, HIDDEN and/or VISIBLE. I think that rather than have some kind of all or nothing situation happen like with the carbon copies of emails, it's better to think it through and remember that not all people play the game the same way. I think this could probably be discussed a whole lot more. Link to comment
+Summitt Dweller Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 I've read a number of the posts in this thread and have yet to see anyone mention MY reason for wanting to have optional parking coordinates in something like .loc form... Have you ever INCORRECTLY entered the parking coordinates that someone supplied in their description? I have, more than once. On at least one occasion it could have been a real disaster. It's downright dangerous to be focused on your GPS while driving and if you entered a coordinate wrong (and are therefore not where you should be) then you've really got potential for trouble. Getting lost in the field can be rather refreshing at times... but getting lost in traffic is not so much fun. Having the option to download these coordinates along with cache locations would be great...and in some instances safer too. Mark Link to comment
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