Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 7
ArtieD

What would you do?

Recommended Posts

Well, I suppose I'll let the log stand. I just hate that someone can put so little effort into answering an EarthCache's questions.

 

You are kidding aren't you? Apparently the concept of game is not grasped by some.

Edited by Packanack

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I suppose I'll let the log stand. I just hate that someone can put so little effort into answering an EarthCache's questions.

 

You are kidding aren't you? Apparently the concept of game is not grasped by some.

 

I rather think that Earthcaches are not considered as game by everyone (I regard them as educative activity) and further that

the concept of game people have differs from person to person. Volleyball can be considered as game, but I would react quite

angry if some players are not putting their best effort into the game and/or are not following the rules.

 

Cezanne

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I suppose I'll let the log stand. I just hate that someone can put so little effort into answering an EarthCache's questions.

 

You are kidding aren't you? Apparently the concept of game is not grasped by some.

 

I rather think that Earthcaches are not considered as game by everyone (I regard them as educative activity) and further that

the concept of game people have differs from person to person. Volleyball can be considered as game, but I would react quite

angry if some players are not putting their best effort into the game and/or are not following the rules.

 

Cezanne

 

This.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I suppose I'll let the log stand. I just hate that someone can put so little effort into answering an EarthCache's questions.

 

You are kidding aren't you? Apparently the concept of game is not grasped by some.

 

Packanack,

Well said! Earthcaching is only a part of geocaching. Different from the run-of-the-mill geocaching pursuits yes, but none the less it is part of geocaching and geocaching is a game! As far as effort goes, some put more into the game than others. That doesn't make them better or worse than others. :ph34r:

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

Share this post


Link to post

When someone answers questions incorrectly, I usually send a reply to 'review question X with these answers' and let the log stand. They still learned something.

 

Personally I acknowledge every e-mail with "close enough, perfect or thanks for visiting" or I'll try to elicit the right answer or correct the mistakes.

- Some Earthcaches take a long time to set up with various amount of research involved not to mention the number of rejections or verifications we have to go through before approval is granted.

 

- The least anyone can do, wanting to earn a "Smilie", is give us some credit for setting up the Earthcache. :)

 

I know some don't like this way of earning their smilie and would rather earn it by lifting a lamppost skirt. :mad:

 

TO EACH THEIR OWN!

Share this post


Link to post

I am the CO of an earth cache, which is not too difficult (1.5/2). Recently a geocacher logged a find without bothering to send any answers to any questions.

I contacted him reminding him of the earthcaches' rules and wishing him good luck Happy New Year, then I deleted the log.

 

He logged again with 'Didn't have time to do the questions but took a photo of me and site. Tftc". So NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to ANSWER ANYTHING, not even giving a measurement estimate, which would have been dead simple .

I wrote a note on the EC page, saying: [:(] The previous log by "------" is NOT VALID as no questions were answered despite a request to do so in a separate email [:(]

 

What is the point of someone doing that? What is the solution? :mad: Second time this happened :blink:

Edited by pilot03

Share this post


Link to post
I wrote a note on the EC page, saying: [:(] The previous log by "Draygon uk" is NOT VALID as no questions were answered despite a request to do so in a separate email [:(]

 

What is the point of someone doing that? What is the solution? :mad: Second time this happened :blink:

Did you delete his second find?

 

I think the proper thing to do is keep deleting his find logs until he gets tired of the fight, rather than publicly shaming him on your cache page.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm pretty flexible with wrong answers, especially when it's clear that the person was there and that the person actually considered the questions I asked.

 

But if someone doesn't send any answers, even after I've specifically reminded them that my EC has questions that need to be answered? DELETE

Share this post


Link to post

A couple of months ago a well known armchair cacher from New Jersey logged one of my earthcaches. He tried to claim that he had emailed the answers. I didn't believe that he had ever

been to Oregon since he never logged any physical caches here. I deleted his first log and he threatened to report me to Groundspeak. He did send the right answers and Groundspeak told me I had to leave the post. Since then he has logged earthcaches in Checkoslovakia even though his cache finds are in eastern states.

I have a physical cache inside this earthcache with a code written under the lid. You don't have to find the regular cache but it helps confirm that you were there and not armchair logging

Share this post


Link to post

I have contacted the UK Reviewer to see what his/her opinion is. I'll leave the cache page as it is for the moment and will act depending on the advice I'll receive.

 

I had plans to create more ECs but it is a drag if people are not honest. What's the point?

 

We DO enjoy visiting ECs, they give an extra dimension to geocaching :D

Share this post


Link to post

I had plans to create more ECs but it is a drag if people are not honest. What's the point?

The point is the people that are honest. The people that aren't honest aren't worth worrying about.

Share this post


Link to post

I had plans to create more ECs but it is a drag if people are not honest. What's the point?

 

Of all the finds we've had on 25 earthcaches, we've had this happen exactly once so far. Not a new cacher, not his first earthcache, yet apparently he felt that just because he stopped by he was entitled to log a find. Literally. This is the quote from his original found it log.

 

Found it while taking a break from a very long road trip. No time to stop and observe to discover and email the answers.

 

Two messages from me later, he changed it to a note, after adding some passive aggressive screed about having read the cache description as well but being forced to change his find to a note (oh, the humanity). Since the description literally states three times that one needs to send answers in order to log a find, apparently he did not read it so closely. He was also kind enough to respond to my messages with "Don't get your panties in a wad."

 

But at any rate, that's my only experience. I'd treat this as an isolated experience and move on with other earthcaches, but of course that's up to you.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks everyone for your support & experience. :grin:

 

Hzoi, you have been lucky so far with your own 25 ECs. Out of 43 'finders', we already had 2 dishonest & arguing...

 

I reply to all the emails with answers, either to say 'well done' or help with unclear or wrong answers, but I accept all the logs (as per the rules) as far as someone had genuinely tried to answer

 

Yes, point taken, J Grouchy & niraD, I'll delete the log again, and again and again... :angry:

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks everyone for your support & experience. :grin:

 

Hzoi, you have been lucky so far with your own 25 ECs. Out of 43 'finders', we already had 2 dishonest & arguing...

 

I reply to all the emails with answers, either to say 'well done' or help with unclear or wrong answers, but I accept all the logs (as per the rules) as far as someone had genuinely tried to answer

 

Yes, point taken, J Grouchy & niraD, I'll delete the log again, and again and again... :angry:

 

Do not get into a power struggle with a poorly-behaved geocacher. You gave this person a fair chance to do the right thing, and now he/she is being abusive.

 

Do not respond further. Use the contact form to report what is happening (repeat fraudulent logs). Groundspeak will tell this person to back off.

 

Don't worry that you've deleted the logs. They are actually archived and still visible to Groundspeak staff.

Share this post


Link to post

We have only found 15 Earthcaches so far, and I'm always worried about our emailed answers, even though we've never received one acknowledgement one way or another on whether the answers are correct or not. Our logs haven't been deleted, so I guess we're okay. Virtuals, same thing, 10 logged, no acknowledgement, but no deletions. Honestly, it would be nice to hear something back sometime.

Share this post


Link to post

We have only found 15 Earthcaches so far, and I'm always worried about our emailed answers, even though we've never received one acknowledgement one way or another on whether the answers are correct or not. Our logs haven't been deleted, so I guess we're okay. Virtuals, same thing, 10 logged, no acknowledgement, but no deletions. Honestly, it would be nice to hear something back sometime.

 

Side issue, but I always write back for this reason. Often just to say "You got it, thanks," but if someone didn't quite get it, I let them know what we were looking for. (I still allow the find if someone was there and tried but just didn't grasp the lesson; this is geocaching, not quiz bowl.)

 

The only time I don't is if someone uses the email system and doesn't provide a return address -- I'm happy to reply to a message or an email, but I'm not going to go out of my way to go to someone's profile and contact them.

Share this post


Link to post

Having read this old thread from end to end I have one question - which probably won't get answers from the early posters but - here goes...

 

If it's only a game and on this basis a CO 'shouldn't get their knickers in a twist' - why do finders who have their logs rejected because they didn't complete the required tasks often get their knickers all twisted?

 

Surely that argument, if it has any validity at all, cuts equally both ways? :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post

Having read this old thread from end to end I have one question - which probably won't get answers from the early posters but - here goes...

 

If it's only a game and on this basis a CO 'shouldn't get their knickers in a twist' - why do finders who have their logs rejected because they didn't complete the required tasks often get their knickers all twisted?

 

Surely that argument, if it has any validity at all, cuts equally both ways? :ph34r:

One would think. But the question of whose undergarments have become ensnarled is apparently a subjective one.

Share this post


Link to post

If it's only a game and on this basis a CO 'shouldn't get their knickers in a twist' - why do finders who have their logs rejected because they didn't complete the required tasks often get their knickers all twisted?

I've observed that most, if not all, geocaching conflicts are caused by the fact that both parties are having problems with their knickers. And normally, as you point out, the easiest way out is for the seeker to accept the CO's position. That, in turn, is simple enough as long as one keeps in mind that the value is in the effort, not in counting.

Share this post


Link to post
But the question of whose undergarments have become ensnarled is apparently a subjective one.
Absolutely subjective. I can laugh at your twisted knickers much more easily than I can laugh at my own...

Share this post


Link to post

Having read this old thread from end to end I have one question - which probably won't get answers from the early posters but - here goes...

 

If it's only a game and on this basis a CO 'shouldn't get their knickers in a twist' - why do finders who have their logs rejected because they didn't complete the required tasks often get their knickers all twisted?

 

Surely that argument, if it has any validity at all, cuts equally both ways? :ph34r:

One would think. But the question of whose undergarments have become ensnarled is apparently a subjective one.

 

You need only read through this thread and look at which posters are most agitated / prone to tossing out insults about a person's mental state to answer that question - at least in the context of this thread.

 

I've seen it plenty of times in real life too though - the advocates of the it's only a game philosophy suddenly seem to take things very seriously indeed when there's something as important as a smiley at stake :unsure:

 

The irony is almost tangible.

Share this post


Link to post

I visited the description of the earthcache that's most recently at issue in this thread for the first time today.

 

Just as a side comment to pilot03, you could maybe tone down the tone of the cache listing a bit. Between the main body text and the hint, I count three separate threats of log deletion, including this one.

 

NO ANSWERS, NO SMILEY! FINGER HOVERING ON THE DELETE BUTTON!

 

(The bold text in all caps is taken just as it appears in the cache; the red text is my only change.)

 

Perhaps consider just telling them what they need to do to log a find, rather than threatening what you will do if they do not comply. The image of someone waiting around just to delete logs might be prompting people to mess with you just to provoke a reaction.

 

My two cents, take them or leave them.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks everyone for your support & experience. :grin:

 

Hzoi, you have been lucky so far with your own 25 ECs. Out of 43 'finders', we already had 2 dishonest & arguing...

 

I reply to all the emails with answers, either to say 'well done' or help with unclear or wrong answers, but I accept all the logs (as per the rules) as far as someone had genuinely tried to answer

 

Yes, point taken, J Grouchy & niraD, I'll delete the log again, and again and again... :angry:

 

As I'm sure I've mentioned elsewhere... My nephew loves EarthCaches and has hidden one of his own. The cache page mentions that you will need a magnetic compass and a magnet. Fairly easy EarthCache. Most cachers enjoy it very much. (Many cachers are quite astounded that you can attach an MKH to a rock!)

A ways back, two out-of-staters stopped by, and logged a find without supplying any answers. My nephew e-mailed and mentioned that they needed to answer the questions. The on cacher deleted the find. The other did not. After a second reminder that was ignored, the log was deleted. And relogged. And deleted. That brought a nasty, insutling and threatening e-mail. That was referred to TPTB, and that cacher was banned from logging that EarthCache.

So, sometimes that is what it takes.

Share this post


Link to post

I visited the description of the earthcache that's most recently at issue in this thread for the first time today.

 

Just as a side comment to pilot03, you could maybe tone down the tone of the cache listing a bit. Between the main body text and the hint, I count three separate threats of log deletion, including this one.

 

NO ANSWERS, NO SMILEY! FINGER HOVERING ON THE DELETE BUTTON!

 

(The bold text in all caps is taken just as it appears in the cache; the red text is my only change.)

 

Perhaps consider just telling them what they need to do to log a find, rather than threatening what you will do if they do not comply. The image of someone waiting around just to delete logs might be prompting people to mess with you just to provoke a reaction.

 

My two cents, take them or leave them.

 

Pretty much every EC I look at 'reserves the right' to delete logs with insufficient Logging Task Responses but I admit that I've never seen three individual threats or one which seemed so focused on the expectation of failure.

Share this post


Link to post

I visited the description of the earthcache that's most recently at issue in this thread for the first time today.

 

Just as a side comment to pilot03, you could maybe tone down the tone of the cache listing a bit. Between the main body text and the hint, I count three separate threats of log deletion, including this one.

 

NO ANSWERS, NO SMILEY! FINGER HOVERING ON THE DELETE BUTTON!

 

(The bold text in all caps is taken just as it appears in the cache; the red text is my only change.)

 

Perhaps consider just telling them what they need to do to log a find, rather than threatening what you will do if they do not comply. The image of someone waiting around just to delete logs might be prompting people to mess with you just to provoke a reaction.

 

My two cents, take them or leave them.

 

I understand the frustration causing one to add threats to their cache listing. But I am in agreement, the threats need to go or be toned down.

Share this post


Link to post

I visited the description of the earthcache that's most recently at issue in this thread for the first time today.

 

Just as a side comment to pilot03, you could maybe tone down the tone of the cache listing a bit. Between the main body text and the hint, I count three separate threats of log deletion, including this one.

 

NO ANSWERS, NO SMILEY! FINGER HOVERING ON THE DELETE BUTTON!

 

(The bold text in all caps is taken just as it appears in the cache; the red text is my only change.)

 

Perhaps consider just telling them what they need to do to log a find, rather than threatening what you will do if they do not comply. The image of someone waiting around just to delete logs might be prompting people to mess with you just to provoke a reaction.

 

My two cents, take them or leave them.

 

Agreed...it seems a pretty heavy threat.

 

I also noticed one thing that, if changed, might actually help. WAYYYYYY down the cache page, right before the threat that hzoi quoted, there is this:

 

Reminder on "Earthcaches": there is no container, physical cache or logbook to find information.

 

I actually would have put that all the way at the top. Like, first thing on the page, before even the description. Sometimes folks see all that text and their eyes glaze over. Anyone who is not clear on the purpose of earthcaches might not know that there is no physical container. Sometimes all it takes is saying, right at the beginning, "there is no container to find...you must answer the questions below to be able to log a find on this cache." It's a lot like stating on a mystery cache page that the container is not at the posted coordinates. Say it up front so there is much less of a chance of there being any confusion.

Edited by J Grouchy

Share this post


Link to post
Sometimes folks see all that text and their eyes glaze over. Anyone who is not clear on the purpose of earthcaches might not know that there is no physical container. Sometimes all it takes is saying, right at the beginning, "there is no container to find...you must answer the questions below to be able to log a find on this cache." It's a lot like stating on a mystery cache page that the container is not at the posted coordinates. Say it up front so there is much less of a chance of there being any confusion.
Yep. That's why I include the following paragraph at the top of my EarthCache description:

 

"This is an EarthCache, so there is no container to find. To log this EarthCache, you must read the information below, visit and observe the location, and send me your answers to 3 questions about the location's geology. Additional internet research is not needed; you need only the text and images below, and the signs at the site."

Share this post


Link to post

I understand the frustration causing one to add threats to their cache listing. But I am in agreement, the threats need to go or be toned down.

On the one hand, I agree that threats are bad. But on the other hand, a threat like this shouldn't really be taken seriously. After all, it's obviously not true that his finger hovers over the delete button all day long waiting for a bogus log, so in that sense he's undeniably joking. I have a hard time condemning someone that humorously emphasizes that there are rules and that he follows them strictly even though I'm not a big fan of a CO rigidly following the rules. I think we should save our disdain for threats that go beyond what the CO can do within the guidelines.

Share this post


Link to post

I understand the frustration causing one to add threats to their cache listing. But I am in agreement, the threats need to go or be toned down.

On the one hand, I agree that threats are bad. But on the other hand, a threat like this shouldn't really be taken seriously. After all, it's obviously not true that his finger hovers over the delete button all day long waiting for a bogus log, so in that sense he's undeniably joking. I have a hard time condemning someone that humorously emphasizes that there are rules and that he follows them strictly even though I'm not a big fan of a CO rigidly following the rules. I think we should save our disdain for threats that go beyond what the CO can do within the guidelines.

 

I got the feeling based on all of the posts above that it was much more than joking. The thing is, my opinion isn't any less valid than yours is. Although, I opt to error for non to less threatening geocache listings.

Share this post


Link to post

Let's not get too personal in this thread. So far, it's made for interesting reading.

Share this post


Link to post

There is one question - if answers should be allways accepted no matter are they correct or not, why do you set difficulty of your EC bigger that 1 star?

Share this post


Link to post
There is one question - if answers should be allways accepted no matter are they correct or not, why do you set difficulty of your EC bigger that 1 star?
What do you think the point of the difficulty rating is?

 

If it's going to take about 30 minutes to visit all the necessary waypoints and compile answers (even wrong answers) for an EC, then I think the EC should be rated D2 to communicate that fact. At least, that's my take on the relevant Help Center article.

 

The fact that the CO accepts some wrong answers has nothing to do with it. The point of the difficulty rating is to communicate something about the geocache experience to potential seekers.

Share this post


Link to post

There is one question - if answers should be allways accepted no matter are they correct or not, why do you set difficulty of your EC bigger that 1 star?

Judging from many of the answers to similar enquiries in the Forum on the subject, my guess is that most EC owners are concerned with two aspects of the Logging Requirements:

.

1. Was the Finder actually at the site?

 

2. Did the Finder make an honest effort at arriving at the correct conclusions?

 

From what I've heard of the small number of Logging disputes that have ended up at Groundspeak appeals, if the Finder can't cough up the correct answers to the Loggging Requirements, chances are pretty slim that a deleted log will get reinstated. So in general, No, I don't think incorrect answers should "always" be accepted, provided the "honest effort" issue has not been met. Poorly written EC's and/or poorly written/vague Logging Requirements all come into play when determining what an "honest effort" means. I think the answer to your question is more nuanced, and that the word, "always" is an unfortunate choice.

Share this post


Link to post

There is one question - if answers should be allways accepted no matter are they correct or not, why do you set difficulty of your EC bigger that 1 star?

 

The point of Earthcache tasks is to get the participants to demonstrate learning. Cache owners are given some latitude to determine what counts as an acceptable degree of learning.

 

It is often the case with Earthcaches that the tasks are open-ended, rather than basic question and answer. It's not always possible to assign a score or determine "correctness" with these tasks, but it can be argued that these tasks are more enriching than basic knowledge tests.

 

The difficulty of the Earthcache is determined based on the amount of effort required for a participant to put in a sincere effort to perform the tasks and learn about the site. I would argue that a high difficulty Earthcache that involves high engagement in the site should be subject to a higher tolerance for "incorrect" answers than a low difficulty Earthcache where the answers are read off a sign or come from the cache page.

 

Remember that Earthcaches should be meant to teach others, not control them.

Edited by Neos2

Share this post


Link to post

"EarthCaches must be educational."

That's the key. If the people were educated, then they met the goal. One could be educated even through wrong answers. But it depends on the answers; if they were very, very bad and showed no attempt to put thought into it or to participate in the educational aspect of EarthCaching, then I'd argue that the find was not made. So it's up to the CO. If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it. A photo alone, and no true attempt to answer the logging tasks would not be considered a "find" in the spirit of EarthCaching. But if the CO thinks the answers had some thought, observation, reasoning, learning behind them, please go ahead and accept the log.

--Matt

Share this post


Link to post

If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it.

 

"Totally terrible" is still relative. I'll make sure to keep my autistic kid from logging your earthcaches on her own. I'd hate for her to be disappointed not having the ability to understand the failure.

Share this post


Link to post

If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it.

 

"Totally terrible" is still relative. I'll make sure to keep my autistic kid from logging your earthcaches on her own. I'd hate for her to be disappointed not having the ability to understand the failure.

 

I'd like to think that any responsible parent would do the same.

Share this post


Link to post

If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it.

 

"Totally terrible" is still relative. I'll make sure to keep my autistic kid from logging your earthcaches on her own. I'd hate for her to be disappointed not having the ability to understand the failure.

 

I'd like to think that any responsible parent would do the same.

 

My autistic kid is 21 years old. There's a 50-50 chance I would even be with her when she went for it. If you went after her for "totally terrible" answers even though she made an effort, you can be assured that I will go after you (using means provided by Groundspeak).

Share this post


Link to post

If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it.

 

"Totally terrible" is still relative. I'll make sure to keep my autistic kid from logging your earthcaches on her own. I'd hate for her to be disappointed not having the ability to understand the failure.

 

I'd like to think that any responsible parent would do the same.

 

My autistic kid is 21 years old. There's a 50-50 chance I would even be with her when she went for it. If you went after her for "totally terrible" answers even though she made an effort, you can be assured that I will go after you (using means provided by Groundspeak).

 

I'll consider myself warned!

Share this post


Link to post

If they send a photo, and totally terrible answers, I'd push back and not accept it.

 

"Totally terrible" is still relative. I'll make sure to keep my autistic kid from logging your earthcaches on her own. I'd hate for her to be disappointed not having the ability to understand the failure.

 

I'd like to think that any responsible parent would do the same.

 

My autistic kid is 21 years old. There's a 50-50 chance I would even be with her when she went for it. If you went after her for "totally terrible" answers even though she made an effort, you can be assured that I will go after you (using means provided by Groundspeak).

This came out of left field, as I don't think anyone contemplated "going after" your daughter until you brought her up.

 

It begs a question, and I'm trying to phrase this very carefully, as I do not mean to accuse or offend here.

 

Your last two posts here indicate that your daughter has limitations, and you seem offended that someone might not accomodate those limitations when it comes to, say, logging an earthcache. Who would you hold responsible to explain that a particular cache may not be realistic for her or someone similarly situated? The cache owner, who is just expecting answers to earth science questions in order to keep within the earthcache guidelines? The GSA, for writing neutral guidelines that don't contemplate differently abled seekers? Groundspeak?

Share this post


Link to post

The latest comments in this thread are certainly interesting reading, but they are off topic for this thread. If you want to continue the discussion, I recommend starting a new thread. I'm temporarily locking this thread to allow tempers to cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 7

×