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I see that you don't see the difference. Completing the challenge doesn't solve the location for the cache. It is just some arbitrary hoop you make a geocacher jump through for you to give them the coordinates of the cache listing. The location of the cache has no relation to the challenge.

 

I believe that I see some difference, but I think that some of the statements you make above are misleading.

Let me concentrate on three aspects:

 

(1) It is not necessarily true that coordinates for a challenge are only available to those who have completed the challenge.

Take e.g. this challenge cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=467968dc-2c61-4203-85ea-3f18a1abf83d

Every cacher can obtain the coordinates (by solving the puzzle) and visit the location, but not everyone can claim a found it log.

I have visited the location and I have no problem at all with just writing a note.

 

(2) Many multi caches and mystery caches involve tasks that are seen by a group of cachers as arbitrary hoops they have to take to be able to log a found it log in the end. So what you call arbitrary hoops is nothing that is special for challenge caches.

 

(3) In the majority of ? caches, the puzzle (which can be seen as mental challenge) has no connection to the location.

 

There is no puzzle cache listed where the final is 2,000 miles away.

 

It might well happen that for caches with multiple stages (regardless of whether puzzles are involved or not) quite some distance lies between the starting point and the endpoint of the cache. It makes more sense to require the distance limit of 2-3 miles for the starting point of a cache as one needs to start there.

 

Take e.g. multi caches like the hiking cache that leads from Munich in Germany to Venice in Italy

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9e649f3d-7a10-43d8-ad2f-6db609c1a574

That's quite some distance and if a puzzle were involved, the cache would be a mystery cache.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Try publishing it without a cache at the end.

That's why people want virtuals back. :anibad:

 

Well that came full circle didn't it! B)

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I am not asking the task be changed. Let me clear up my post on this. The task is To claim a find on this cache, you will need to first find at least one cache of every difficulty/terrain combination (81 unique combinations/caches). The rest are rules that apply to the task, the additional logging requirements.

 

This is probably one of the best examples of a challenge cache that doesn't make any sense, since anyone in the world could attempt and complete it. So why do they need to travel to X location to log the cache? Couldn't someone create one in every city, town, or hobbit village? Why not just focus on a devious puzzle instead?

Correct me if I am wrong but, because this is one of the challenges that has been proven it can be accomplished time and time again. This means CO does not need to do it to prove it can be done so anybody who wants to can list the challenge. Leading to... someone can create one in every city, town, or hobbit village as long as they can maintain the cache.

They can even claim the Smiley after completing the challenge if they are so inclined. Might be bad form to claim your own cache but there isn't a rule/guideline/code snippet (hint hint) prohibiting the practice.

 

kidding about the hint.

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Get used to it, folks. That picture is about to become a geocaching.com legend.

 

Nod. I love it, and "Jeremy"'s message. Plus, like that trackable image, he has some rather sharp edges.

 

I just finished submitting the requirements for a particularly tedious challenge cache. I hope the death knell for these kinds of cache is soon sounded, and I'm getting somewhat of the sense of where Jeremy is going with this. A kind of ALR using the actual location in some way is what we need.

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(1) It is not necessarily true that coordinates for a challenge are only available to those who have completed the challenge.

Take e.g. this challenge cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=467968dc-2c61-4203-85ea-3f18a1abf83d

Every cacher can obtain the coordinates (by solving the puzzle) and visit the location, but not everyone can claim a found it log.

I have visited the location and I have no problem at all with just writing a note.

 

(2) Many multi caches and mystery caches involve tasks that are seen by a group of cachers as arbitrary hoops they have to take to be able to log a found it log in the end. So what you call arbitrary hoops is nothing that is special for challenge caches.

 

(3) In the majority of ? caches, the puzzle (which can be seen as mental challenge) has no connection to the location.

 

 

(1) The problem is you can't claim a found it log, even though you found it. You may not have a problem with that, but I do. A found it log means you found it. That's why it is called a found it log.

 

(2) If the things you do result in finding the cache (code breaking, math, etc), it isn't arbitrary. The task results in a solution that takes you to a cache. It is the personal whim of a geocacher to decide whether you completed a challenge cache, therefore it is arbitrary.

 

(3) The puzzle location is near the final location, so it has a connection to the cache. A challenge like finding a cache every day for 366 days doesn't have a connection to any location.

 

I'm trying to be as leading as possible here. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

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I think you are being very clear, but some do not agree with your definition of a location based action.

 

Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.

Edited by wimseyguy

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I think you are being very clear, but some do not agree with your definition of a location based action.

 

Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.

 

"to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row"

 

I'm not sure how generating GPS coordinates is not location based.

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Because they are just random numbers for the puzzle solutions until you add 3104830 to the answers of A+B+C and 720391 to the answers of D+E+F?

 

My point is that the puzzles themselves have nothing to do with geocaching, they are just number generators.

Edited by wimseyguy

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I think you are being very clear, but some do not agree with your definition of a location based action.

 

Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.

 

So are you saying that 100 days of finds, a full calendar, or the grid have anything to do with finding a cache?

 

It is on the theme of geocaches but it really has nothing to do with that particular find.

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No more or less than any puzzle does. So if this is the argument for the elimination of challenge caches, perhaps there should also be an examination of the puzzle cache category too? And shall we also bring EC's back into the discussion, or just stay focused on challenge caches?

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Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.
(emphasis mine)

 

It seems clear to me that anything you need to do to generate GPS coordinates is location based. The puzzle may otherwise have nothing to do with the location, but it is still location based if its solution generates GPS coordinates.

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I don't think you understand the rationale. If the puzzle gives you coords (lets call that a location), then it is related to the finding of that cache, no matter what the subject. It will lead you to a geocache.

 

Challenges are not related to the finding of the cache for which they are listed so these are technically ALRs although allowed.

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I think I see what is going on inside Jeremy's head, pretty scarey. Use a GPS to find a container, sign the log, and log it online. Pretty basic for a traditional. A multi is similar except it takes finding one or more locations / containers before find the final, signing the log, and log it online. Puzzles may require some up front work, but in the end you use a GPS to find a container, sign the log book, and then log it online. I see a pattern forming here.

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I think you are being very clear, but some do not agree with your definition of a location based action.

 

Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords some random numbers which can then be viewed as GPS coords with the addition of the proper numbers, is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.

 

Perhaps that post was hastily worded to get it in line behind Jeremy's?

Does this version make more sense?

 

Why bother with the mental gymnastics involved in the physics lesson etc. and just make this a traditional hides only game?

 

I agree that the control freakishness of some challenge owners has gotten out of control. But once again it seems that a bazooka is being aimed at a mosquito to solve a problem around here.

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I think I see what is going on inside Jeremy's head, pretty scarey. Use a GPS to find a container, sign the log, and log it online. Pretty basic for a traditional. A multi is similar except it takes finding one or more locations / containers before find the final, signing the log, and log it online. Puzzles may require some up front work, but in the end you use a GPS to find a container, sign the log book, and then log it online. I see a pattern forming here.

:lol::lol::lol:

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Perhaps that post was hastily worded to get it in line behind Jeremy's?

Does this version make more sense?

Hmm, I don't think so. The whole website lists random numbers that can be viewed as GPS coordinates. I don't really see your point here.

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Does this version make more sense?

 

I think you have the same resolve as before.

 

Why bother with the mental gymnastics involved in the physics lesson etc. and just make this a traditional hides only game?

 

Just another variation of the theme. Refer to post #163.

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Umm, the point is that there isn't anything location based about 'The number of episodes in the first season', or 'the Number of neutrons in the element that caused an explosion at the Fukishima Daiichi Plant in Japan whose isotope has a half-life of 12 years', or 'Paris Hilton's bra size' until you add the necessary numbers to it.

 

I agree that finding 100 caches on consecutive days is not specifically related to finding the location of that particular challenge cache with that pre-requisite, but it is as coordinate related as the above three examples in my mind. Keith Watson-stay out!

At least the challenge requirement is geocaching related, solving the puzzles is not.

 

I'm afraid I cannot make this point any clearer.

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During the discussions on ALRs, some people made a distinction between hoops you need to jump through in order to find the cache (or sign the physical log) and hoops you have to jump through in order to log a find online.

 

The wording used in the elimination of ALRs seems to follow this concept. Once the physical log has been signed you can log a find online. Challenge caches are an exception to this. They are still a hoop you have to jump through in order to log a find online.

 

Now some challenge supporters may argue that if you know you can't log it online if you haven't completed the challenge, you either don't bother looking for a cache or if you go and find the cache you know that you can only write a note. Some challenges will allow to go back and change the note to a find once you complete the challenge, while others say you need to go back to cache and sign the physical log a second time.

 

Now the difference with a puzzle, is that some people will try and brute force a puzzle (or a multi cache), others will find the cache along with a friend who solved it, and still others might accidentally stumble on the cache while looking for a place to hide their own. In all these cases, a cacher can log a find online (although some cache owners have been known to delete logs because the puzzle wasn't solved the way they wanted).

 

I think Jeremy is objecting to the use of a cache (and associated smiley) as reward for geocaching. In a geocaching challenge, you've already gotten a reward on not just the finds you logged in pursing the challenge but in completing the challenge itself. Another cache and another smiley shouldn't be necessary to get people to do challenges. Instead a separate count on the statistics page, a souvenir, or a separate tab with your challenge records could serve the same purpose.

 

The issue with challenges not being related to the location where the challenge was met in another problem. Sometimes someone completes the challenge and can't log a find on the challenge cache because there are no challenges near them. On the other hand, someone could complete a challenge and then travel to 5 different states and log 5 caches for their one accomplishment. Again, using a different system will eliminate these problems.

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but it is as coordinate related as the above three examples in my mind. Keith Watson-stay out!

 

Can I at least get under your skin? :laughing:

 

On a side note I have to know.

 

Jeremy, are you still driving that old Saturn or did you retire it?

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The only hoop I hate having to do is getting my picture with my GPS on a earth cache. My Gps is actually a camera so I have to carry both and sometimes that is a pain. I don't see the point when your picture is still in front of whatever earth someone wanted you to see.

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Having read this whole thread, several thoughts come to mind

 

Jeremy's posts made a lot of sense to me. There is little if anything related to the cache container related to the attached pre-requisites in order to log a 'challenge cache'. I'd rather see a collection of souvenirs to earn for completing tasks like the Fizzy Challenge, the 100 Days in a Row Challenge, the Found Every Cache Type Challenge... etc etc. Why do I need to travel to Alaska just to log a cache for finding the "First Cache Placed in my Home State" challenge cache? Even though I currently have eight challenge caches in place, I'd rather people be able to log them as personal goals they completed from anywhere in the world without having to come here. Nothing in 'challenges' needs to be location/coordinate based.

 

However, I don't see at all how this addresses the so-called "Return of Virtual Caches". Unless I've been mistaken for ten years, a Virtual Cache is about going to a location and seeing something then either answering a question about it or taking a photo at it.

 

} Completing a "Jasmer" is a Challenge - not coordinate based at all, people can complete it in many different places

} Taking a picture at the Space Needle is a Challenge - specific coordinate based, unattainable to most

There seems to be a disconnect between the two types that sounds like they are being painted with the same brush.

 

I'm not saying both aren't fun, just that I don't see how

} There is no need for a container for a challenge

is the same as

} Go to this specific place and do something

 

B) BQ

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Umm, the point is that there isn't anything location based about 'The number of episodes in the first season', or 'the Number of neutrons in the element that caused an explosion at the Fukishima Daiichi Plant in Japan whose isotope has a half-life of 12 years', or 'Paris Hilton's bra size' until you add the necessary numbers to it.

 

I agree that finding 100 caches on consecutive days is not specifically related to finding the location of that particular challenge cache with that pre-requisite, but it is as coordinate related as the above three examples in my mind. Keith Watson-stay out!

I understand your point, and I agree that none of these things are necessarily related to the location of a particular piece of Tupperware in the woods.

 

What makes any of them related to the location of a particular piece of Tupperware in the woods is the cache owner's decision to use those arbitrary bits of trivia to provide seekers the coordinates for that location. But once you find the cache and sign the log inside, you can log the find online.

 

Unfortunately, challenge caches don't use the challenge itself to provide the coordinates of the cache, and they don't allow anyone who finds the cache and signs the log to log their find online.

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Umm, the point is that there isn't anything location based about 'The number of episodes in the first season', or 'the Number of neutrons in the element that caused an explosion at the Fukishima Daiichi Plant in Japan whose isotope has a half-life of 12 years', or 'Paris Hilton's bra size' until you add the necessary numbers to it.

 

I agree that finding 100 caches on consecutive days is not specifically related to finding the location of that particular challenge cache with that pre-requisite, but it is as coordinate related as the above three examples in my mind. Keith Watson-stay out!

I understand your point, and I agree that none of these things are necessarily related to the location of a particular piece of Tupperware in the woods.

 

What makes any of them related to the location of a particular piece of Tupperware in the woods is the cache owner's decision to use those arbitrary bits of trivia to provide seekers the coordinates for that location. But once you find the cache and sign the log inside, you can log the find online.

 

Unfortunately, challenge caches don't use the challenge itself to provide the coordinates of the cache, and they don't allow anyone who finds the cache and signs the log to log their find online.

 

To put it another way, the puzzle is gateway to finding the Tupperware. A challenge cache is a gateway to the cache owner allowing your Find It log to stand on the website, after you have already located the Tupperware.

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The only hoop I hate having to do is getting my picture with my GPS on a earth cache. My Gps is actually a camera so I have to carry both and sometimes that is a pain. I don't see the point when your picture is still in front of whatever earth someone wanted you to see.

 

Earthcache logging guidelines have been changed. You cannot be required to post a photo of yourself nor of your GPS to log a visit to an Earthcache.

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Having read this whole thread, several thoughts come to mind

 

Jeremy's posts made a lot of sense to me. There is little if anything related to the cache container related to the attached pre-requisites in order to log a 'challenge cache'. I'd rather see a collection of souvenirs to earn for completing tasks like the Fizzy Challenge, the 100 Days in a Row Challenge, the Found Every Cache Type Challenge... etc etc. Why do I need to travel to Alaska just to log a cache for finding the "First Cache Placed in my Home State" challenge cache? Even though I currently have eight challenge caches in place, I'd rather people be able to log them as personal goals they completed from anywhere in the world without having to come here. Nothing in 'challenges' needs to be location/coordinate based.

 

<snip>

 

B) BQ

 

Thanks BQ - you expressed much more eloquently and coherently what I was trying to say in my earlier post. :wub:

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I think I see what is going on inside Jeremy's head, pretty scarey. Use a GPS to find a container, sign the log, and log it online. Pretty basic for a traditional. A multi is similar except it takes finding one or more locations / containers before find the final, signing the log, and log it online. Puzzles may require some up front work, but in the end you use a GPS to find a container, sign the log book, and then log it online. I see a pattern forming here.

 

The challenge cache I posted above as example (the only one in my area and possibly the only Austrian at all, but I am not sure about that) also fits into this framework. The prior work there not only involves solving a puzzle, but also visit caches in all neighbouring countries of Austria or at least 12 different countries. One might see this as a ALR (all challenge caches have one in a way), but also as a different kind of bonus caches. I know of several ?-caches for which one needs to visit 20 or more other caches (of various types, sometimes all of them being ?-caches themselves). So the only difference essentially is that in the first case the list of caches is not given (which is given in the second case) and that the visited caches have no influence on the coordinates of the cache to be visited.

 

So to conclude, it seems to me that the discussion is rather about ALRs and not about whether the tasks are location based.

 

Cezanne

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Unfortunately, challenge caches don't use the challenge itself to provide the coordinates of the cache,

 

That's not true. I have provided an example for which this is not true. It is also not required by the guidelines.

 

and they don't allow anyone who finds the cache and signs the log to log their find online.

 

That's true, but that is a ALR-debate and not a debate about location-based.

 

There is not a single cacher in area who has voiced a problem with this challenge cache in my area (I have used it as example above)

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=467968dc-2c61-4203-85ea-3f18a1abf83d

It has 7 favourites and I am sure that without the challenge character the cache would have less favourites, if some at all.

 

Normally cachers only solve the puzzle if they either have interest into the puzzle or want to see whether they can solve it (it costs some effort) or if they have fulfilled the criteria of the challenge or are close to meeting them. I am certainly the only one who visited the cache without having to intent to fulfill the criteria (I have visited more than 12 countries, but not for caching and I do not plan to change that). For those who do not intend to fulfill the criteria of the challenge and who are interested into found it logs, there is no motivation at all to visit the cache and that's why the caches works out very well.

 

 

Cezanne

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I think Jeremy is objecting to the use of a cache (and associated smiley) as reward for geocaching. In a geocaching challenge, you've already gotten a reward on not just the finds you logged in pursing the challenge but in completing the challenge itself. Another cache and another smiley shouldn't be necessary to get people to do challenges. Instead a separate count on the statistics page, a souvenir, or a separate tab with your challenge records could serve the same purpose.

There is no where in your list of substitutes that allow you to log your experience at finishing the challenge. Without the listing page where can I share my fun/struggles/etc. of completing the task? That's mostly why I've found some challenges (some of which I'd completed/qualified for before I'd heard of that challenge). So, for me, they wouldn't "serve the same purpose" at all.

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I think Jeremy is objecting to the use of a cache (and associated smiley) as reward for geocaching. In a geocaching challenge, you've already gotten a reward on not just the finds you logged in pursing the challenge but in completing the challenge itself. Another cache and another smiley shouldn't be necessary to get people to do challenges. Instead a separate count on the statistics page, a souvenir, or a separate tab with your challenge records could serve the same purpose.

 

What you write might be true for some challenges, but certainly not for all of them.

Moreover, as someone else has already pointed out, I feel that the chance to write a log on one's experiences is something essential.

 

One of the underlying ideas of this challenge cache in the area of Graz airport

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=467968dc-2c61-4203-85ea-3f18a1abf83d

is to assemble a map with all countries visited by one of the challenge finishers for the means of geocaching. It's somehow nice to see how many countries are covered by a relatively small group most of them know each other.

So there is a local issue involved. It's also interesting to read the reports of some finishers how they managed to meet the criteria.

 

I do not care at all how many badges, icons, awards, souvenirs etc people collect. That's their private issue.

Personally, I am not all interested into meeting caching challenge, but I have to admit that I enjoy reading the logs of caches like the one mentioned above, and in particular if I know the loggers in person. So I prefer the way to implement challenges via caches to implementing them in some electronic way.

 

Sharing stories and experiences in online logs about outdoor experiences is one of the most important aspects of geocaching for me if not the most important one. It is definitely more important for me than GPS coordinates, searching items etc. I guess that one of the reasons why I do not like Waymarking is also that there one encounters hardly any logs and if there are any, they are typically very short and do not tell stories.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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I think you are being very clear, but some do not agree with your definition of a location based action.

 

Solving a puzzle about nuclear physics, the habits of Paris Hilton, or some obscure details from the TV show Lost, and then massaging that data with a math formula to generate GPS coords is no more location based than finding a cache 100 days in a row, on every date on the calendar, or in each of the 81 D/T grids. But at least the latter three tasks are geocaching related.

 

The location disconnect that I see for a Challenge cache such as "find a cache 100 days in a row" or filling out a 81 D/T grid is that once someone has completed the Challenge (the old kind) there may be dozens if not hundreds of locations one could visit to claim a smiley.

 

Does anyone else suspect that there may be a guideline change when the new challenges are released which abolishes the creation of old style challenges and grandfathers that cache type?

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Sharing stories and experiences in online logs about outdoor experiences is one of the most important aspects of geocaching for me if not the most important one.

 

In fairness, Jeremy has pretty much stated that even he doesn't know what the solution for challenge caches looks like yet, only that it needs to be dealt with. There is no reason to believe that writing an online log couldn't be part of the eventual implementation.

 

I think it is good to bring that point up. I agree with you, it would be nice upon completion of a challenge if you somewhere had a chance to write up the experience so it could be shared with others who have either done the challenge or are working on it.

 

I believe there are ways that could be done without needing the cache at the end.

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Does anyone else suspect that there may be a guideline change when the new challenges are released which abolishes the creation of old style challenges and grandfathers that cache type?

 

I don't see them being abolished. I do see some challenge caches having the additional ALR's being revoked at which point you may see a mass archival of challenge caches by the cache owners themselves to prevent anyone else from claiming a find.

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Does anyone else suspect that there may be a guideline change when the new challenges are released which abolishes the creation of old style challenges and grandfathers that cache type?

 

maybe at a later date

 

/snip

 

I also agree that the "challenge cache" is an abused form of the former ALR, or "additional logging requirements." It makes very little sense to restrict a cache find in this way, especially since a geocacher can accomplish many of the tasks on the opposite side of the world but could never find this particular cache. This needs to be dealt with, but shouldn't be in the context of this new activity, and it won't be restricted at the same time this new activity is launched, or because this new activity is launched.

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Having read this whole thread, several thoughts come to mind

 

Jeremy's posts made a lot of sense to me. There is little if anything related to the cache container related to the attached pre-requisites in order to log a 'challenge cache'. I'd rather see a collection of souvenirs to earn for completing tasks like the Fizzy Challenge, the 100 Days in a Row Challenge, the Found Every Cache Type Challenge... etc etc. Why do I need to travel to Alaska just to log a cache for finding the "First Cache Placed in my Home State" challenge cache? Even though I currently have eight challenge caches in place, I'd rather people be able to log them as personal goals they completed from anywhere in the world without having to come here. Nothing in 'challenges' needs to be location/coordinate based.

 

<snip>

 

B) BQ

 

Thanks BQ - you expressed much more eloquently and coherently what I was trying to say in my earlier post. :wub:

If that was a correct portrayal of these new "Challenge" caches, then I can agree that throwing away the need for a final physical find makes a lot of sense to me. But I fail to see how this is any sort of replacement for virtual caches.

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If that was a correct portrayal of these new "Challenge" caches, then I can agree that throwing away the need for a final physical find makes a lot of sense to me. But I fail to see how this is any sort of replacement for virtual caches.

 

Depends. If you add a location to that "challenge", and if you allow the "challenge" to be pretty much anything, it is.

Edited by dfx

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If that was a correct portrayal of these new "Challenge" caches, then I can agree that throwing away the need for a final physical find makes a lot of sense to me. But I fail to see how this is any sort of replacement for virtual caches.

 

Depends. If you add a location to that "challenge", it is.

You mean, for example, the "challenge" could be to take a picture of you standing near the Queen Mary? Is that the idea?

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If that was a correct portrayal of these new "Challenge" caches, then I can agree that throwing away the need for a final physical find makes a lot of sense to me. But I fail to see how this is any sort of replacement for virtual caches.

 

Depends. If you add a location to that "challenge", it is.

You mean, for example, the "challenge" could be to take a picture of you standing near the Queen Mary? Is that the idea?

 

Exactly.

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If that was a correct portrayal of these new "Challenge" caches, then I can agree that throwing away the need for a final physical find makes a lot of sense to me. But I fail to see how this is any sort of replacement for virtual caches.

 

Depends. If you add a location to that "challenge", it is.

You mean, for example, the "challenge" could be to take a picture of you standing near the Queen Mary? Is that the idea?

 

Exactly.

 

Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

Edited by dfx

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

 

Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem.

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

 

Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem.

I would hope that map based challenges (Delorme, Thomas Guide, etc) survive. I've gone lots of placed because of this that I might not normally have gone.

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

 

Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem.

Well, to be honest, the confusion is very understandable when you consider that the concept of "Challenge cache" was already firmly established when Groundspeak decided to repurpose the term for this new concept instead of coming up with a unique name. Is the name "Challenge" already carved in stone?

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

 

Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem.

Well, to be honest, the confusion is very understandable when you consider that the concept of "Challenge cache" was already firmly established when Groundspeak decided to repurpose the term for this new concept instead of coming up with a unique name. Is the name "Challenge" already carved in stone?

 

He addressed that earlier in the thread.

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Ahhhh, OK. Thanks. Except, I have a feeling that very, very few of these "challenges" will be of that sort. I would bet the majority will be of the Fizzy Challenge sort. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the concept for me. Over and out.

 

Well, we don't know for sure yet what the new challenges will be like. There's a chance that they're all gonna be location based, at least for the time being. The whole comparison with challenge caches was a bit of an unrelated side discussion. I don't think there was an official confirmation that the new challenges could be used for concepts similar to challenge caches. At least not yet, they might be in the future.

 

Yes. Challenge caches are an unrelated discussion to the replacement for virtuals (or at least on the fringes). However, since people kept bringing it up, I addressed it as a problem.

Well, to be honest, the confusion is very understandable when you consider that the concept of "Challenge cache" was already firmly established when Groundspeak decided to repurpose the term for this new concept instead of coming up with a unique name. Is the name "Challenge" already carved in stone?

 

He addressed that earlier in the thread.

Thanks. I tried to follow this thread for a while, but it got too frayed after a while.

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He addressed that earlier in the thread.

Thanks. I tried to follow this thread for a while, but it got too frayed after a while.

 

Also a bit confusing is that some stuff was discussed in "The Return of Virtuals" thread. I have a hard time remembering what was discussed where.

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I think Jeremy is objecting to the use of a cache (and associated smiley) as reward for geocaching. In a geocaching challenge, you've already gotten a reward on not just the finds you logged in pursing the challenge but in completing the challenge itself. Another cache and another smiley shouldn't be necessary to get people to do challenges. Instead a separate count on the statistics page, a souvenir, or a separate tab with your challenge records could serve the same purpose.

 

What you write might be true for some challenges, but certainly not for all of them.

Moreover, as someone else has already pointed out, I feel that the chance to write a log on one's experiences is something essential.

 

One of the underlying ideas of this challenge cache in the area of Graz airport

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=467968dc-2c61-4203-85ea-3f18a1abf83d

is to assemble a map with all countries visited by one of the challenge finishers for the means of geocaching. It's somehow nice to see how many countries are covered by a relatively small group most of them know each other.

So there is a local issue involved. It's also interesting to read the reports of some finishers how they managed to meet the criteria.

 

I do not care at all how many badges, icons, awards, souvenirs etc people collect. That's their private issue.

Personally, I am not all interested into meeting caching challenge, but I have to admit that I enjoy reading the logs of caches like the one mentioned above, and in particular if I know the loggers in person. So I prefer the way to implement challenges via caches to implementing them in some electronic way.

 

Sharing stories and experiences in online logs about outdoor experiences is one of the most important aspects of geocaching for me if not the most important one. It is definitely more important for me than GPS coordinates, searching items etc. I guess that one of the reasons why I do not like Waymarking is also that there one encounters hardly any logs and if there are any, they are typically very short and do not tell stories.

 

Cezanne

Very interesting cache. It's a combination of challenge and a puzzle cache. Given the theme of the puzzle it's easy to see why the cache owner might feel the particular challenge adds something to the cache.

 

The problem is that it would work fine as stand alone puzzle. While anyone who solves the puzzle part is welcome to find the cache and sign the physical log, the cache owner is using the challenge part as an ALR to restrict who can log online.

 

As with any guideline change, should Groundspeak decide to end the exception to the ALR guideline of challenge caches, sometimes a unique or clever idea will be no longer be allowed. A cacher owner who feels that his travel themed puzzle is enhanced if he only allows people who have traveled to log it won't have that option.

 

A replacement for challenges would of course allow you to still have challenges to find caches in certain countries or in a certain number of countries. Those who enjoy traveling to find caches can still encourage others to share this experience thru whatever the replacement for challenges are. Now, it seems that form some people the logs that are written for challenges caches are valuable. I don't doubt that cachers who travel the world to find caches have many great stories to tell. My guess is that cachers would find a way to do this. But I'd have no objection if Groundspeak were to give each challenge a page like a cache page on which people could post notes chronicling there progress and a completed log when they complete the challenge.

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No more or less than any puzzle does. So if this is the argument for the elimination of challenge caches, perhaps there should also be an examination of the puzzle cache category too? And shall we also bring EC's back into the discussion, or just stay focused on challenge caches?

:lol: ow :lol: ow :lol: ow :lol: ow :lol: ow :lol: ow

Thanks! Basically +

What does any cache without a cache have to do with geocaching?

I cant believe that I didn't see that as soon as I saw this.

I see that you don't see the difference. Completing the challenge doesn't solve the location for the cache. It is just some arbitrary hoop you make a geocacher jump through for you to give them the coordinates of the cache listing. The location of the cache has no relation to the challenge.

SO solving the "what ever a CO wants" for an EC or VC doesn't solve the location...It is just some arbitrary hoop you make a geocacher jump through for you to allow them a I went to your spot I mean found it on the cache listing.

The lack of a cache forces them to have no more relation to caching than the next rock, statue or lamp post that I can get a set of coords for.

Now I really wanna see how challenges are going to work because so far, from all the speculation the seem even more vaporous then the "Don't have a cache" cache types.

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