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The Poles....


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I live in the city and there are a number of TELPHONE POLE HIDES. I've never been able to find any of these types of caches. I don't know how many times I've looked like I have just found my one and true love in a telephone pole by touching it, caressing it, staring at it, and to a point talking to it! Are there any suggestions, so I just don't look like I've fallen back into The Age of Aquarius and getting ready to go to another Grateful Dead show?!

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As far as I know, most utility companies have explicit rules against attaching anything to their equipment, including poles.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they aren't there anyway.

 

That sounds a lot like, "but officer, everybody drives over the speed limit on this road".

 

Break the law/rule, and an excuse like that isn't likely going to prevent you from suffering the consequences.

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As far as I know, most utility companies have explicit rules against attaching anything to their equipment, including poles.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they aren't there anyway.

That sounds a lot like, "but officer, everybody drives over the speed limit on this road".

 

Break the law/rule, and an excuse like that isn't likely going to prevent you from suffering the consequences.

No one said utility pole hides were legal, or that certain excuses would prevent them from suffering the consequences. The OP was stumped on them and we offered some solutions.

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As far as I know, most utility companies have explicit rules against attaching anything to their equipment, including poles.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they aren't there anyway.
That sounds a lot like, "but officer, everybody drives over the speed limit on this road".

 

Break the law/rule, and an excuse like that isn't likely going to prevent you from suffering the consequences.

No one said utility pole hides were legal, or that certain excuses would prevent them from suffering the consequences. The OP was stumped on them and we offered some solutions.
Fine, we'll connect the dots for ya:

 

Don't hunt them. If you are caught returning an unauthorized object to a utility pole, you are the one who will be in trouble. Is it worth it?

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Theres several things attached to most poles , one more little geocache doesn't hurt anybody now does it. I'm not going to pass up a geo just because its on a telephone pole. I consider them far more enjoyable than a regular street sign hide. The tougher ones are great and i dont see any problems with them. Also on a lot of those poles there are wooden wedges stuck in them which makes a perfect slot for a nano, without havn't to drill a whole or anything. No harm no foul.

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Theres several things attached to most poles , one more little geocache doesn't hurt anybody now does it. I'm not going to pass up a geo just because its on a telephone pole. I consider them far more enjoyable than a regular street sign hide. The tougher ones are great and i dont see any problems with them. Also on a lot of those poles there are wooden wedges stuck in them which makes a perfect slot for a nano, without havn't to drill a whole or anything. No harm no foul.

 

That's total bull, and these hides, along with all the tag sale signs, and lost dogs signs could hurt someone. Yes harm, yes too foul. Read this. And read it well. And hope someone doesn't come to your workplace and place dangerous objects in your way. It's illegal. It's dangerous for the linesman, and should not be happening.

Imagine climbing the pole, getting your spikes caught and sliding down the pole with your thighs grabbing twelve inch long, inch thick splinters the whole way. Have some common courtesy, and common sense.

 

There is another thread about this very thing, and a geocacher who IS A LINESMAN asked if people could please stop it. It's dangerous for them!!!

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i found a cache at a pole NOT attached at the base, it looked like a your normal cable TV cables, coming out of the ground and spliced together, you unscrew the cable and the log is inside the adapter.

 

That can be even more dangerous. Cachers will think that others could be hidden that way, and open a live wire. Stay away from utility poles. What an ugly hide anyway, on a creosote covered dead tree. Gee thanks a whole lot for bringing me here. And probably, in most cases, too close to the road for my comfort. Pardon me, does this cache make my butt look fat? And still, illegal.

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Don't hunt them.

That would be my advice to the OP. Though I am driven more by my highly biased caching aesthetics, than I am by any fear of legal action. My preferences are location based, and a telephone pole along the side of a road is not a place I choose to recreate at. Different strokes for different folks, I reckon.

 

...and i dont see any problems with them.

Gotcha. Possibly breaking the law, and most certainly breaking the guidelines are OK by you, so long as you get to increase your find count. Well, at least we've established where your priorities lie. Thank you for your honesty, at least.

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I'm pretty sure all linesmen now use bucket trucks to access the wires on utility poles. I've never seen one climbing a pole before.

I have. They still climb, bucket trucks don't go everywhere. But it does not change the fact that the poles are private property of the power company/co-op and gaining permission would be somewhere between nil and zero.

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uni brackets. One of my best cacher friends have a cache in a telephone pole in a uni bracket or uni tube or whatever its called...that big metal bracket that I have to use my fingers to search blindly in. I hate that cache (as he knows).

 

We had one cache that required you to climb the pole, that was mercifully and quickly archived by reviewers.

 

Fake metal tube at the base of the pole also is a possibility. We had one cacher build a few of those and you had to use a fishing line to get the cache way down there. Was a bugger to get, bought some special fishing line and hooks to get it out. Nothing else I had worked.

Edited by lamoracke
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Theres several things attached to most poles , one more little geocache doesn't hurt anybody now does it. I'm not going to pass up a geo just because its on a telephone pole. I consider them far more enjoyable than a regular street sign hide. The tougher ones are great and i dont see any problems with them. Also on a lot of those poles there are wooden wedges stuck in them which makes a perfect slot for a nano, without havn't to drill a whole or anything. No harm no foul.

 

That's total bull, and these hides, along with all the tag sale signs, and lost dogs signs could hurt someone. Yes harm, yes too foul. Read this. And read it well. And hope someone doesn't come to your workplace and place dangerous objects in your way. It's illegal. It's dangerous for the linesman, and should not be happening.

Imagine climbing the pole, getting your spikes caught and sliding down the pole with your thighs grabbing twelve inch long, inch thick splinters the whole way. Have some common courtesy, and common sense.

 

There is another thread about this very thing, and a geocacher who IS A LINESMAN asked if people could please stop it. It's dangerous for them!!!

 

I never said anything about a sign on a pole. Placing a micro on the lower part of a wooden tele pole will not hurt someone. Obviously film and altoid cans should be handled with extreme cation as they lead to immediate injury or death. Where i live people dont shimmy up poles. They have these futuristic space rides that have a lift on them and bring people to the tops of the poles. I dont know where they came from must be magic.

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Don't hunt them.

That would be my advice to the OP. Though I am driven more by my highly biased caching aesthetics, than I am by any fear of legal action. My preferences are location based, and a telephone pole along the side of a road is not a place I choose to recreate at. Different strokes for different folks, I reckon.

 

...and i dont see any problems with them.

Gotcha. Possibly breaking the law, and most certainly breaking the guidelines are OK by you, so long as you get to increase your find count. Well, at least we've established where your priorities lie. Thank you for your honesty, at least.

Firstly of all you can sit there a lie and say you've never done anything outside the guidelines, yea thats hard to believe. Now if there's a perfectly fine geocache on a pole I will grab it why not? I've yet to see anything on a telephone pole that would hurt anyone attempting to climb it. Oh wait there was that one magnetic key holder that almost took a chunk out of my arm. If you want to be bitter and criticize little aspects of the game thats on you, it only takes away from your enjoyment. I prefer to just find the geocaches and if it was a good challenging hide all the better. A person is far more likely to trip over an ammo can and break their leg. Maybe you shouldn't hide regular sized geocaches either. Maybe your priorities need some adjusting as well.

Edited by Night_Hiker
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Firstly of all you can sit there a lie and say you've never done anything outside the guidelines

Firstly of all? Uh... Never mind. Correcting grammar is never a valid debate tactic. Back to you saying I can lie about the guidelines... Why would I do that? Are you suggesting I should lie, (as in it's acceptable), or just saying I am physically capable of prevarication? Is spewing falsehoods your preferred means of communication? If so, might I suggest knitting, instead of geocaching as a hobby? Any lies you might spread while knitting would have less of a chance of negatively impacting other enthusiasts.

 

Now if there's a perfectly fine geocache on a pole I will grab it why not?

So long as you are OK with breaking the law, and/or violating the guidelines, and won't come in here whining when the consequences of your actions catch up to you, have at it. I am not going to hold your hand till the end of time to ensure you avoid bad behavior. Though I'm not sure how any cache, placed on a telephone pole, in violation of the guidelines, could be "perfectly fine".

 

I've yet to see anything on a telephone pole that would hurt anyone attempting to climb it.

That suggests that you are not very observant. I have yet to see a telephone pole that did not have all manner of pokey things protruding from it, all of which could, potentially injure a climber. Presumably, all of those hazards are part of the reason a lineman has to be certified before making a manual ascent.

 

If you want to be bitter and criticize little aspects of the game thats on you

What makes you think I'm bitter? If you were to brag about driving drunk, shoplifting, trespassing, or any other manner of criminal acts, and I were to suggest that your illegal acts were a bad thing, would you think I was bitter? Is that some sort of generic response anytime someone says you shouldn't break the law?

 

It only takes away from your enjoyment.

I wasn't aware that I wasn't enjoying this game. Can you cite a source? I thought I was having a grand time. If I'm not, I'd really like some proof.

 

A person it far more likely to trip over an ammo can and break their leg.

Presumably you can cite a source for this as well? No? I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask. Oh well. It's the Internet. I should expect that folks would make stuff up to better their argument. Wait... Wouldn't that be "lying"? If memory serves, you were getting pretty worked up about folks lying in here. So surely your comment was based on factual data. Care to share?

 

Maybe you shouldn't hide regular sized geocaches either.

Why not? Are regular caches a bad thing in your world?

 

Maybe your priorities need some adjusting as well.

You may be right. Let's compare priorities. My priorities are to create caches using quality containers, in scenic locations, with well written cache pages, that typically generate longer than normal logs, as folks express their gratitude for the adventure I presented them with. Your priorities are breaking the law, breaking the guidelines and getting whiny / petulant when someone suggests you shouldn't.

 

Hmmm...

 

Sorry. I'm not seeing it.

 

Maybe we should take a vote? :unsure:

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Firstly of all you can sit there a lie and say you've never done anything outside the guidelines

Firstly of all? Uh... Never mind. Correcting grammar is never a valid debate tactic. Back to you saying I can lie about the guidelines... Why would I do that? Are you suggesting I should lie, (as in it's acceptable), or just saying I am physically capable of prevarication? Is spewing falsehoods your preferred means of communication? If so, might I suggest knitting, instead of geocaching as a hobby? Any lies you might spread while knitting would have less of a chance of negatively impacting other enthusiasts.

 

Now if there's a perfectly fine geocache on a pole I will grab it why not?

So long as you are OK with breaking the law, and/or violating the guidelines, and won't come in here whining when the consequences of your actions catch up to you, have at it. I am not going to hold your hand till the end of time to ensure you avoid bad behavior. Though I'm not sure how any cache, placed on a telephone pole, in violation of the guidelines, could be "perfectly fine".

 

I've yet to see anything on a telephone pole that would hurt anyone attempting to climb it.

That suggests that you are not very observant. I have yet to see a telephone pole that did not have all manner of pokey things protruding from it, all of which could, potentially injure a climber. Presumably, all of those hazards are part of the reason a lineman has to be certified before making a manual ascent.

 

If you want to be bitter and criticize little aspects of the game thats on you

What makes you think I'm bitter? If you were to brag about driving drunk, shoplifting, trespassing, or any other manner of criminal acts, and I were to suggest that your illegal acts were a bad thing, would you think I was bitter? Is that some sort of generic response anytime someone says you shouldn't break the law?

 

It only takes away from your enjoyment.

I wasn't aware that I wasn't enjoying this game. Can you cite a source? I thought I was having a grand time. If I'm not, I'd really like some proof.

 

A person it far more likely to trip over an ammo can and break their leg.

Presumably you can cite a source for this as well? No? I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask. Oh well. It's the Internet. I should expect that folks would make stuff up to better their argument. Wait... Wouldn't that be "lying"? If memory serves, you were getting pretty worked up about folks lying in here. So surely your comment was based on factual data. Care to share?

 

Maybe you shouldn't hide regular sized geocaches either.

Why not? Are regular caches a bad thing in your world?

 

Maybe your priorities need some adjusting as well.

You may be right. Let's compare priorities. My priorities are to create caches using quality containers, in scenic locations, with well written cache pages, that typically generate longer than normal logs, as folks express their gratitude for the adventure I presented them with. Your priorities are breaking the law, breaking the guidelines and getting whiny / petulant when someone suggests you shouldn't.

 

Hmmm...

 

Sorry. I'm not seeing it.

 

Maybe we should take a vote? :unsure:

"first of all" Correcting grammar as a comeback is one of the most childish types there are. Now lets compare caches and my priorities. I have a fake fire hydrant I hand crafted, a fake hornets nest down a 5 terrain mountain side and up a tree, a 6 room birdhouse on a 15 foot pole that has a trap door geocache that is lowered down by a smaller birdhouse mounted on the pole. A fake mushroom, a fake carrot ( 2 1'2 feet long) , a fake wasp nest, a 3 cache lord of the rings based trilogy series (up the side of a nice river). Also I have a hand crafted anaconda head scaled to actual size that I've yet to hide. For a grand total of 64 favorite votes amongst them. You don't know my priorities, so don't pretend to. I don't go out intentionally breaking the law, that's bad karma, not my style. I enjoy making the caches that I like to find I enjoy finding caches that are fun, no matter their location. I much prefer a regular sized container in a nice place but that's not always what you end up going after. I give back to this game as well as anyone and from the looks of it all the caches I hide are the types you like to find. My sources are cited in my owned caches and the great logs that geocachers have provided for me. Thats why I do this. Feel free to read the log entries, but i must warn you they are rather lengthy. I rarely even hide micros and have only hidden one on a telephone pole which is doing no one any harm. A simply reflector. It actually helps vehicles see the pole at night due to it's sketchy location on a curve not 2 feet from the road ( happy to lend a hand!) Wouldn't ya know the little guy even has a favorite vote. I'm in no way bragging just defending myself. Those are my priorities sir, good day

Edited by Night_Hiker
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I rarely even hide micros and have only hidden one on a telephone pole which is doing no one any harm. A simply reflector. It actually helps vehicles see the pole at night due to it's sketchy location on a curve not 2 feet from the road ( happy to lend a hand!) Wouldn't ya know the little guy even has a favorite vote. I'm in no way bragging just defending myself. Those are my priorities sir, good day
Would that be GC306J1?
The fact remains that it is illegal in most places to attach anything to a utility pole. (Definitely against the law in New Jersey.) Thus, in those jurisdictions, it violates the geocaching guidelines. NA. It is an illegal place to hide a geocache.
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Why would anyone ever hide anything on Poles?

 

I would LOVE to find a cache on the Poles. I just need a couple of months off work, and a really big snowmobile, and...

 

The south pole supposedly has an entrance to deep within the center of the earth, underneath all the snow and ice, where a large network of honeycombed tunnels were created for humans to live in for several generations, surviving the last ice age, and which caused them to lose all of the pigmentation of their skin.

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Why would anyone ever hide anything on Poles?

 

I would LOVE to find a cache on the Poles. I just need a couple of months off work, and a really big snowmobile, and...

 

The south pole supposedly has an entrance to deep within the center of the earth, underneath all the snow and ice, where a large network of honeycombed tunnels were created for humans to live in for several generations, surviving the last ice age, and which caused them to lose all of the pigmentation of their skin.

 

Sounds like a worthy location for a geo !

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Don't hunt them.

That would be my advice to the OP. Though I am driven more by my highly biased caching aesthetics, than I am by any fear of legal action. My preferences are location based, and a telephone pole along the side of a road is not a place I choose to recreate at. Different strokes for different folks, I reckon.

 

...and i dont see any problems with them.

Gotcha. Possibly breaking the law, and most certainly breaking the guidelines are OK by you, so long as you get to increase your find count. Well, at least we've established where your priorities lie. Thank you for your honesty, at least.

CR, you've often laid down your feelings about "breaking the law" or "breaking the guidelines". The issue here is that there IS a geocache on/at/near a utility pole. This tells me that, according to placement guidelines, the cache owner has received proper permissions and the cache is "legal". We are not one to judge a placement once it is out there.

 

That is, however, unless a land owner/property manager/representative/etc notices something is awry and brings it to a cache hunter or owner's attention.

 

I have a hide in a parking garage. Private property. I got permissions, and made the hide. People have been approached by people, but the hide stays put because of permissions. I have also taken the time to get permission from my local fire marshal and public works director to hide geocaches on fire hydrants. If an owner takes the time to get proper permissions (as required by the guidelines), a cache is published and can be found. Simply assuming someone doesn't have permissions is a bit presumptuous.

 

Do you (and others here with hide permission issues) report every cache you come across that is on a hydrant, utility pole, fence post, guard rail, tree, patch of grass or bush? ...Didn't think so. Don't assume so much about a cache's placement. Most geocachers are following the guidelines with their hides, and have developed great relationships with public and private interests when it comes to hiding a geocache on their "property".

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As far as I know, most utility companies have explicit rules against attaching anything to their equipment, including poles.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they aren't there anyway.

 

That sounds a lot like, "but officer, everybody drives over the speed limit on this road".

 

Break the law/rule, and an excuse like that isn't likely going to prevent you from suffering the consequences.

 

Hey, I'm not advocating placing them there, just stating that they ARE there.

I found one that was in a quarter size hole that was drilled a couple inches into the pole--I questioned the permission on that one.

I'd probably get busted for finding, and replacing, one in a pole.

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The issue here is that there IS a geocache on/at/near a utility pole. This tells me that, according to placement guidelines, the cache owner has received proper permissions and the cache is "legal".

I understand what you're saying, but since it runs directly contrary to my own experience and observations, I'll have to disagree with that premise. Your theory depends on some logic that I don't think is correct. I've reached this conclusion by seeing many, many examples of caches which, contrary to the owner checking the little box, did not have adequate permission to be there. From a Reviewer's standpoint, all they can see is that the person who submitted the cache page has checked the box. They do not have the resources to verify this on every, or even most, caches. In the end, for many cache placements, they take the owner at his/her word that they had adequate permission.

 

Unfortunately, some folks fib. Others fail to recognize what degree of permission is necessary to reach the level of adequate. A power pole is a good example of this. As a prior poster pointed out, there are specific laws in place prohibiting folks from placing things on power poles, in some jurisdictions. If memory serves, the law which was cited was for the area where the power pole cache is.

 

If we assume that the cited law is real, and it is illegal to place stuff on power poles, what level of permission would you feel was necessary to reach the degree of "adequate", which is required by the guidelines? I think, under those circumstances, the level would be "explicit". Believing this, I find it highly unlikely that anyone at the corporate level of a power company is going to tell a citizen it is OK for them to break the law.

 

I know locally, my Reviewers will archive any cache that is determined to be affixed to one of those blue, R2-D2 looking mailboxes, for much the same reason. It is illegal to place anything on those mailboxes. As such, no one could get permission to hide a cache on one. Unless the cache owner spells it out on the cache page, the Reviewer won't know it's on a mailbox, (or power pole, for that matter), unless someone mentions it to them, or they find it themselves. I suspect that a hide-a-key hidden on a West Virginia DOT guardrail would receive the same scrutiny. WV-DOT says it's illegal to hide caches on their guardrails. Ergo, permission can't be obtained.

 

The motto?

 

Just because a cacher checks a box claiming to have permission, doesn't always mean they do have permission.

 

We are not one to judge a placement once it is out there.

Actually, I think that we, the everyday players, are the best ones to judge existing placements.

If we are unwilling to police our own ranks, someone else will.

 

Simply assuming someone doesn't have permissions is a bit presumptuous.

When a hide is on an object which has laws specifically prohibiting placing objects on it, assumptions regarding permissions are no longer presumptuous. It's merely making an observation based on available data.

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"first of all" Correcting grammar as a comeback is one of the most childish types there are.

Yeah, I think I mentioned that already. Kinda redundant to bring it up again...

Shall we get back to the issues?

 

Now lets compare caches

I'd rather not. We live in two completely different geographic regions, with different influences, affected by an entirely different group of players. Comparing the 64 favorite points which your caches have accumulated, to the 293 favorite points my caches have accumulated doesn't really tell us a whole lot, other than we both take a certain degree of pride in our hides, and as a result, we both place caches which our locals seem to enjoy. I don't see any value in comparing the two. Does my 293 points, compared to your 64 points, mean my caches are better than yours? Not at all. It's just numbers. When we break down our favorite points, your caches average 1.6 points each. Mine average 2.8 points each. Even that doesn't prove my caches are better than yours. There really is no viable way to compare the two sets of numbers.

 

I don't go out intentionally breaking the law

Kewl! That's actually good to know. It tells me that you are a reasonably conscientious person. Not surprising, as, deep down, most people are. If what some folks are claiming is true, and placing objects on power poles is illegal, (I have no idea what the laws are for Arizona, but if you'd like, I'll try and find out), will you continue to act as a reasonably conscientious person and remove it, or will you get stubborn, and insist that "It's not hurting anyone"?

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Didn't read all the entries so if this has been posted I apologize.

 

If the pole has guide lines sometimes there is a plastic sleeve over those guide lines around here they are usually yellow for identificaton. Sometimes the cache is hidden under that yellow plastic. It usually just slides up very easily.

 

Good Luck

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Didn't read all the entries so if this has been posted I apologize.

 

If the pole has guide lines sometimes there is a plastic sleeve over those guide lines around here they are usually yellow for identificaton. Sometimes the cache is hidden under that yellow plastic. It usually just slides up very easily.

 

Good Luck

I don't have time to research it right now, but when I searched the forums to find the thread I linked above, I found posts specifically mentioning those wires, and the fact that a utility employee was quoted as saying that the yellow sleeves are there to protect passers by from the off chance that it is acting as a ground to one of the wires above.

 

In other words, aside from the fact that such a hide is still illegal under the "no objects on utility poles" laws, tampering with them defeats the entire purpose of their existence.

 

Bad idea.

 

(Oh, if someone wants to look, I believe I found it by searching for "utility poles." Look for threads that I participated in...)

Edited by Too Tall John
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The issue here is that there IS a geocache on/at/near a utility pole. This tells me that, according to placement guidelines, the cache owner has received proper permissions and the cache is "legal".

I understand what you're saying, but since it runs directly contrary to my own experience and observations, I'll have to disagree with that premise. Your theory depends on some logic that I don't think is correct. I've reached this conclusion by seeing many, many examples of caches which, contrary to the owner checking the little box, did not have adequate permission to be there. From a Reviewer's standpoint, all they can see is that the person who submitted the cache page has checked the box. They do not have the resources to verify this on every, or even most, caches. In the end, for many cache placements, they take the owner at his/her word that they had adequate permission.

 

Unfortunately, some folks fib. Others fail to recognize what degree of permission is necessary to reach the level of adequate. A power pole is a good example of this. As a prior poster pointed out, there are specific laws in place prohibiting folks from placing things on power poles, in some jurisdictions. If memory serves, the law which was cited was for the area where the power pole cache is.

 

If we assume that the cited law is real, and it is illegal to place stuff on power poles, what level of permission would you feel was necessary to reach the degree of "adequate", which is required by the guidelines? I think, under those circumstances, the level would be "explicit". Believing this, I find it highly unlikely that anyone at the corporate level of a power company is going to tell a citizen it is OK for them to break the law.

 

So, you admit you are passing judgement based on your personal experiences and not by actual knowledge that someone has proper permissions. Again, a cache placer can do their best to get proper permissions. Sometimes they might find that they didn't go high enough. But, trying is key, and gaining a permission from the concerned parties is important. If you wanted to be "thorough", one could try to get to the top of the pile with management. However, this may end up being unlikely, because a CEO, board of trustees, or Executive Director may not see "geocaching" as something they would make a judgement on while concerned with running a business. They may leave that to an underling. (The only way to know is to try...which you claim you are going to pre-judge everyone that they have not gained permissions)

 

That is to say, if one gains permission from a "shot caller", that can easily be "adequate permission". And then, to boot, there is the ability for a concerned party to contact the cache owner and remove the cache if it becomes an issue. (That is one great reason to have a stash note, even in a micro.) If a cache owner has record of correspondence, they can continue the conversation with the concerned party about removal or upping the discussion on the chain of command.

 

Would I take a lineman's permission over a district manager? No. Would I take a district manager over a regional manager? No. But, if you do some simple research, the staff of businesses (small to large) will know just how to route a question about permission to place a "harmless" geocache.

 

I know locally, my Reviewers will archive any cache that is determined to be affixed to one of those blue, R2-D2 looking mailboxes, for much the same reason. It is illegal to place anything on those mailboxes.

Some things are universally not allowed for geocaches. USPS mailboxes would be one...as you may be familiar with the concept of mail bombing? This is not unlike a blanket ban on military bases and schools. <_<

 

As such, no one could get permission to hide a cache on one. Unless the cache owner spells it out on the cache page, the Reviewer won't know it's on a mailbox, (or power pole, for that matter), unless someone mentions it to them, or they find it themselves. I suspect that a hide-a-key hidden on a West Virginia DOT guardrail would receive the same scrutiny. WV-DOT says it's illegal to hide caches on their guardrails. Ergo, permission can't be obtained.

Yup. This is the story. And that is why educating a cache placer on local laws and using reporting tools for geocaches you know full-well to be "illegal" is paramount.

 

Again, would you, knowing that in Minnesota it is not generally permitted to place ANYTHING on a fire hydrant, report any geocache found on a fire hydrant? Sure, we all would. What would you say if, after your "NM" or "NA" log I respond and say that I had proper permissions to hide it. Would you take my word for it, or continue with cache vigilanteism and be presumptuous?

 

The motto?

 

Just because a cacher checks a box claiming to have permission, doesn't always mean they do have permission.

 

Very good! So that is when we can ASK the owner via a NM or NA log to clarify their permissions. Just like a private property cache or any other circumstance. I like to give the cache placer the benefit of the doubt in most, but not all, cases. If it seems sketchy, then I will report as necessary. But think of it this way: The "thou shalt not place anything on a utility pole" is a law or property right set up for things like posters, signs, etc; it predates geocaches. If a cache owner gets permissions, and checks the box, then I'm fine with seeking it and letting it be. I'll leave it up to the utility to contact/remove the cache if they end up finding it improperly permitted. For example, my local reviewer found my fire hydrant cache and immediately disabled it. I let him know that I had permissions. I contacted the fire marshal and public works manager and asked them to give me a formal correspondence that demonstrated the permissions. Does this mean ALL hydrant caches in my area are ok? Nope. I'm the only one--ever--to get permission to hide a geocache on a fire hydrant. To judge all caches, however, on the few non-permitted "bad eggs" is, by definition, presumptuous.

 

We are not one to judge a placement once it is out there.

Actually, I think that we, the everyday players, are the best ones to judge existing placements.

If we are unwilling to police our own ranks, someone else will.

We are, yes. You seemed to miss the point here. We can "judge" them as possibly illegal. You so carefully edited out a key part of my response:

That is, however, unless a land owner/property manager/representative/etc notices something is awry and brings it to a cache hunter or owner's attention.

If you or I happen to know that something like a West Virginian guard rail, or a Federal Blue Mailbox, or a Duluth utility pole is an illegal placement location for a geocache, we can pass that along to the CO in a NM or NA log. Then, if they can prove to a reviewer that they have proper permissions (as marked by the check box when they publish a cache) the cache is "ok".

 

Simply assuming someone doesn't have permissions is a bit presumptuous.

When a hide is on an object which has laws specifically prohibiting placing objects on it, assumptions regarding permissions are no longer presumptuous. It's merely making an observation based on available data.

Right. But not really. You are "going beyond what is right or proper" and being "excessively forward" when you claim, over and over, that Night_Hiker --or other cachers placing something on a utility pole--are heinous lawbreakers. And when you come here to the forums and bloviate about legality of hides, you presume that most caches in "illegal" placements are without permission. Don't assume so much about a cache's placement. Most geocachers are following the guidelines with their hides, and have developed great relationships with public and private interests when it comes to hiding a geocache on their "property".

 

But...like you, yourself said:

"Clan Riffster, on 02 August 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

'Too Tall John, on 01 August 2011 - 08:19 PM, said:

Don't hunt them.'

 

That would be my advice to the OP. Though I am driven more by my highly biased caching aesthetics, than I am by any fear of legal action. My preferences are location based, and a telephone pole along the side of a road is not a place I choose to recreate at. Different strokes for different folks, I reckon."

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Didn't read all the entries so if this has been posted I apologize.

 

If the pole has guide lines sometimes there is a plastic sleeve over those guide lines around here they are usually yellow for identificaton. Sometimes the cache is hidden under that yellow plastic. It usually just slides up very easily.

 

Good Luck

I don't have time to research it right now, but when I searched the forums to find the thread I linked above, I found posts specifically mentioning those wires, and the fact that a utility employee was quoted as saying that the yellow sleeves are there to protect passers by from the off chance that it is acting as a ground to one of the wires above.

 

In other words, aside from the fact that such a hide is still illegal under the "no objects on utility poles" laws, tampering with them defeats the entire purpose of their existence.

 

Bad idea.

 

(Oh, if someone wants to look, I believe I found it by searching for "utility poles." Look for threads that I participated in...)

 

Actually, the plastic is a safety measure for visibility and reduced injury. They are marking the guy-wire for visibility and covering the guy-wire to reduce risk of injury from impacts. (think of it this way: Bike rider hauling a**, and they clip a guy wire that isn't covered by the plastic thingy. Headless rider.)

 

Poles, when grounded, are most often done so with a bare copper wire that runs down the pole and is attached to a rod deeper in the ground.

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Here is one of the only statutes I could find:

Washington State Legislature

"RCW 70.54.090

Attachment of objects to utility poles — Penalty.

(1) It shall be unlawful to attach to utility poles any of the following: Advertising signs, posters, vending machines, or any similar object which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical workers. Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than twelve feet above the surface of the ground.

(2) A person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

[2003 c 53 § 351; 1953 c 185 § 1.]

Notes:

Intent -- Effective date -- 2003 c 53: See notes following RCW 2.48.180."

 

In this case, one might be able to talk to the municipal, public, private, or state utility and ask if a location-based study object would permitted if it was designed not to, or would not present a hazard to, electrical workers. It appears that permissions can be had, so long as one does so with the utility and if the object is not less than 12 feet above ground.

 

So, if the OP's cache hunt becomes fruitful with a find, they might want to inquire if the cache owner has permission for the hide. They just might...

 

...and one could easily discuss (not argue) the legality or implied permissions for a geocache versus the items listed. Again, these permission issues were designed to keep obstructions and advertisement/fliers off of the poles, which would hinder service. This seems to me, with my non-lawyer brain, to think this is what a person would call a "loophole", and therefore implied permission. But, others will argue that this means we should call/email/write the companies and ask for a clarification. <_<

 

...Yeah, I wonder how that will go, telling a "muggle" about geocaching and trying to explain how it wouldn't interfere with operation or safety. You might get a look like this: :blink: Or, :huh: Or, B) So, if you feel the need to get permissions, it would be in the best interest of the game to do so carefully and with planning. Thrusting "geocaching" at a muggle CEO (or similar) would likely create confusion. You need to meet them on their level and sugarcoat the pill. Call it a "GPS location study object" or something creative like that. That is, unless you want another banned geocache hide because of some fumbling, clear-as-mud explanation.

 

Edited to add the linked statute

Edited to fix "more/less" error :blink:

Edited by NeverSummer
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Here is one of the only statutes I could find:

Washington State Legislature

"RCW 70.54.090

Attachment of objects to utility poles — Penalty.

(1) . . . Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than twelve feet above the surface of the ground.

 

In this case, one might be able to talk to the municipal, public, private, or state utility and ask if a location-based study object would permitted if it was designed not to, or would not present a hazard to, electrical workers. It appears that permissions can be had, so long as one does so with the utility and if the object is not more than 12 feet above ground.

 

 

You misspelled "less."

 

If caches can only be attached to poles with permission, and they have to be more than 12 feet above the ground, all utility pole caches would have a 5-star terrain rating.

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Here is one of the only statutes I could find:

Washington State Legislature

"RCW 70.54.090

Attachment of objects to utility poles — Penalty.

(1) . . . Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than twelve feet above the surface of the ground.

 

In this case, one might be able to talk to the municipal, public, private, or state utility and ask if a location-based study object would permitted if it was designed not to, or would not present a hazard to, electrical workers. It appears that permissions can be had, so long as one does so with the utility and if the object is not more than 12 feet above ground.

 

 

You misspelled "less."

 

If caches can only be attached to poles with permission, and they have to be more than 12 feet above the ground, all utility pole caches would have a 5-star terrain rating.

You're a miracle worker! I misunderstood the legalese when I translated it. Good for you! Gold star!

 

GGB, are you just wanting to argue for arguement's sake?

 

Also, "attachment" is listed as "Advertising signs, posters, vending machines, or any similar object which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical workers". This makes sense (less the "vending machines" part) for the listed items. A properly chosen geocache would arguably not be one of the aforementioned "attachments", and would likely not "present a hazard to, or endanger the lives of, electrical workers."

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Here is one of the only statutes I could find:

Washington State Legislature

"RCW 70.54.090

Attachment of objects to utility poles — Penalty.

(1) . . . Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than twelve feet above the surface of the ground.

 

In this case, one might be able to talk to the municipal, public, private, or state utility and ask if a location-based study object would permitted if it was designed not to, or would not present a hazard to, electrical workers. It appears that permissions can be had, so long as one does so with the utility and if the object is not more than 12 feet above ground.

 

 

You misspelled "less."

 

If caches can only be attached to poles with permission, and they have to be more than 12 feet above the ground, all utility pole caches would have a 5-star terrain rating.

You're a miracle worker! I misunderstood the legalese when I translated it. Good for you! Gold star!

 

GGB, are you just wanting to argue for arguement's sake?

 

 

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that, under the law you posted, virtually every utility pole cache in existence is illegal. Unless they are rated 5-stars for terrain, due to requiring a ladder or bucket truck to reach them.

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Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that, under the law you posted, virtually every utility pole cache in existence is illegal. Unless they are rated 5-stars for terrain, due to requiring a ladder or bucket truck to reach them.

:laughing: So an incorrect terrain rating makes a cache illegal?

 

Also, this was a Washington State statute, not universal. There are lists (albeit not complete ones) that "Too Tall John" linked to from a 2008 thread including a discussion about electrical utility poles. None of those laws or property statements list anything that would seem to include a geocache.

 

Also, have you heard of getting on someone's shoulders? That is, only if the geocache were an "attachment" that required permission based on the statute, including "advertising signs, posters, vending machines, or any similar object which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical workers."

 

In addition, an International Municipal Lawyers Association article describes the "attachments" outlined in most riders or statutes as those explicitly listed above, as well as telephone, fiber optic and internet "attachments" to electricity-providing utility poles. This is to say, the respective electrical utilities are saying that other utilities (cable, phone, internet) may not be allowed to hand line on their existing utility pole infrastrucure without permission. Also, the regulations exist also to contain advertisements, fliers and the like.

 

None of these items are inclusive of geocaches with their written intent of exclusion. Simple research of the subject would show that those arguing that the word "attachment" therein means "something that attaches" instead of the legal reference to "attachment" as "an additional or supplementary device". Those arguing against utility poles as a site for geocaches are misinterpreting the legal meaning in the cited statutes or riders for utility companies. (See this article for an example for context)

 

Most statutes are regarding "bill posting" and "attachments" as described above (additional or supplementary device). None so far that I have found in legal document seaches, calls to my local electrical utility (Minnesota Power), or cited sources here in the geocaching.com forum, have demonstrated clearly the illegal nature of using a utility pole as a geocache site.

 

Approved advertisements, signs, posters and any permitted "object which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical workers" must be placed above 12 feet from the ground, yes. And the other statutes people cite refer to "attachment", meaning an additional or supplementary utility device, such as cable, phone or internet service or wires. Therefore, it would appear that, after my research of ordinance, statute, rule and ruling, geocaches that do not "present a hazard to, or endanger the lives of, electrical workers" would be allowed through implied permissions.

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Didn't read all the entries so if this has been posted I apologize.

 

If the pole has guide lines sometimes there is a plastic sleeve over those guide lines around here they are usually yellow for identificaton. Sometimes the cache is hidden under that yellow plastic. It usually just slides up very easily.

 

Good Luck

I don't have time to research it right now, but when I searched the forums to find the thread I linked above, I found posts specifically mentioning those wires, and the fact that a utility employee was quoted as saying that the yellow sleeves are there to protect passers by from the off chance that it is acting as a ground to one of the wires above.

 

In other words, aside from the fact that such a hide is still illegal under the "no objects on utility poles" laws, tampering with them defeats the entire purpose of their existence.

 

Bad idea.

 

(Oh, if someone wants to look, I believe I found it by searching for "utility poles." Look for threads that I participated in...)

 

This is hilarious. If the plastic shield is there for electrical purposes, it's a total fail as there is still plenty of exposed cable. If this were the concern, the cable would be totally insulated. But, assuming that this is the shield's true purpose, I fail to see how sticking a film can or bison tube in the back of one would defeat it's purpose.

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