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Palmable Geocaching.com Data


teamwsmf

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quote:
Originally posted by jroysdon:

As you can see, I am relatively new here. But, in following this thread, I figure I would chime in. I would think that with some of the talent that reside here, all Jeremy would have to do is ask and have more than enough volunteers to help him build a state of the art site. I heard mention of .NET, there is also JSP, and XML and even SOAP.

Being a web programmer myself, I can see a web-service solution and am willing to help out in any way that I can.

Jim icon_biggrin.gif


 

.NET = SOAP = (XML over HTTP(s)) + (vb/c++/js etc integration)

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

4525_1300.gif

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....about mirroring or copying the data off of the server. I am a subscriber, why should someone who has not paid get something for free when I paid for it? The data belongs to Groundspeak, yes?

 

What I suggest it that Groudspeak create a service that can be called upon via a RPC SOAP call where a ZIPCode (or STATE or Country) is submitted (as it is now on the main page) and a PRC or some other Palm compatible is produced and sent to the browser to be saved and placed in the PDA. Most of the coding is already done, the return would have to be formatted to be returned and that should not be too hard.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bear & Ting:

....about mirroring or copying the data off of the server. I am a subscriber, why should someone who has not paid get something for free when I paid for it? The data belongs to Groundspeak, yes?


 

I did not put data into this system to be OWNED by anyone person or company. I put data in this system to SHARE FREELY with other people.

 

I also did not become a subscriber to block this information from others. Aside from MOs, which I dont use, cache information is available to everyuone who comes to this site. This open availability is the thing that has made this site grow to become what it is. If this is going to change Id like to know.

 

In this era of infromation technoloy we live in it is a hard thing to image why palm or ce grabable pages are not either supported or offered. Heck the solution I use doesnt even require Geocaching.com to do anything at all, the guy who makes up the Palm files does all the parsing himself.

 

So wheres the freaking beef?

 

I dont know why the issue of viewing the data here in differnt formats has gone unanswered. I hope its because there is a slution being worked on that will allow folks to see the data in ways they find usefull.

 

Until such time as we have an offical word I continue to use the solutions that work for me.

And work it does.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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Another alternative that *may* fit in with various requests in other forums...

 

the .LOC files that are downloaded for EasyGPS are really .xml files in disguise... (just open one up with Notepad, or rename it to a .xml and open it with Internet Explorer)

 

SO... IF...

 

1) these .loc xml files could be expanded to include additional data fields (such as cache type, date hidden, date last found, difficulty, terrain, description, hint, ...) - if EasyGPS is properly written (and some very brief testing seems to confirm this is the case) it should not care about any additional xml tags in the file.

 

*AND*

 

2) if the number of entries on a page could be specified on a search so that one could retrieve a page with, say, 50 or 100 or ... cache entries.

Right now you can specifically code queries to geocaching.com - something like - http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?origin_lat=55.44444&origin_long=-111.11111 -- all that would be required would be to add an additional argument "num=100" to the query - the same syntax that many other search engines support.

 

THEN

 

if you hit "check all" (the script for this might need some reworking?) and then download to GPS... you would have all the info you needed in an xml format on your pc to do whatever kind of 'post processing' you wanted...

 

I would *love* to be able to do this for any of several reasons -- to put into an excel spreadsheet; to print a short summary to carry around; to load into Streets and Trips; to download to my palm in memopad format (or in any of several searchable database formats); or to download to my palm as a series of stripped down html pages like Brian has done at pathetique.com.

 

We have the technology (or rather, Jeremy does)

 

B

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Been reading about making this site portable. One possibility is for the site master to print it in Adobe .PDF format so that it is downloadable to the PDA. I believe there is some feature built in that allows the engine to auto create the files as needed. They just have to buy one copy rather than pay the subs for Avantgo. Defintely the cheaper option and portable on almost all PDAs as well as offline for the PCs.

 

Or you could buy your own PDF writer and just print the web pages you want into PDF format.

 

The PDF reader for the PDA is free . . .

 

Nice thing abount this solution is if you buy your own copy, anything you can print - documents, spreadsheets, webpages etc. can be placed into your PDA easily.

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You have not addressed this issue so I can only hope that you at least read the posts.

I am a fairly new geocacher. I love the hobby and I love the site.

I have recently become a charter member. I became a charter member to help support this site because I used it and I believed in it and I know that not too many things are free in life.

I have a Palm PDA and since I have found the source to download the caches in my area to my PDA, my life, and geocaching, has been much more fun.

I sometimes go to caches on the spur of the moment, when I happen to be in the area.

Without the ability to download the many caches in my area, my only alternative would be to print out 100 caches in my area, each consisting of about 3 pages or so each.

So that is about 300 pages to print out, that will soon go stale, just IN CASE I happen to be in that area at some time or another.

Look, I will gladly pay for this convenience if it is necessary, but without it I think that my interest in geocaching will diminish, I will quit buying the geocaching merchandise from this site, I will stop turning all my friends on to geocaching, geocaching.com and Groundspeak,will cease to be a charter member of this site, and will, once again, shake my head in disbelief at what I see as people being so greedy that they would refuse to give their fellow man a glass of water, even if the glass or the water cost them nothing.

I hope you can work something out with the guys that are writing the scripts. The suggestion that only giving the scripts to charter members seems fair to me.

I ask that whatever you do, do it soon. And in the meantime, don't hassle the guys that are busting their butts to help us, without compensation.

Jeremy, If you think that anything I have said seems unfair to you or this site, please respond, even if it's a personal email.

Thanks for listening.

-juiceman

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I agree fully. I love the palmable cache site, of course it doesn't include MOC's, I would love to see Groundspeak embrace this resource and maybe even make it directly available on this site. I don't understand why the lack of response in this forum by the folks at Groundspeak, I wish they would, I am a paying member, did so because this is fun, the site is nice, and giving a bit of my cash to keep the cache site up is worth it...but if the folks at Groundspeak are going to be so unresponsive to new ideas that would greatly improve this place, and not even comment, well then heck, maybe I made a mistake by joining up.

 

Would like to see some response in this thread from the Groundspeak crew.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Thanks Juiceman, you are right on target. I too have become a charter member, paid the one year dues. Not to get more, but to support my use of the game. I have also purchesed my products from groucnspeak this year. Any attempt to remove the original forum of this being a "Public" site will remove my support. I am waiting to see the response by the powers to be. I think this is a very crucial decision to the future of geocaching on this site. Silence only provides an uncomfortable feeling that the decision is not going to be positive towards those that have supported this site. In which case I am going to feel very betrayed and will turn my energies from support to non-support.

 

Jim

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As posted above, I'm afraid it's the slippery slope of letting raw data out the door. At least 6 months ago I sent off an email asking about user-customizable cache pages, specifically for printing on fewer pages. When that went nowhere, I asked about raw data so I could format the data myself for my printouts. Again, nothing. icon_frown.gif

 

This isn't new, unfortunately. I know the script jockeys icon_smile.gificon_smile.gif have been hacking at this longer than I have. I just wish we'd hear SOMEthing.

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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As posted above, I'm afraid it's the slippery slope of letting raw data out the door. At least 6 months ago I sent off an email asking about user-customizable cache pages, specifically for printing on fewer pages. When that went nowhere, I asked about raw data so I could format the data myself for my printouts. Again, nothing. icon_frown.gif

 

This isn't new, unfortunately. I know the script jockeys icon_smile.gificon_smile.gif have been hacking at this longer than I have. I just wish we'd hear SOMEthing.

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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Here, Here! I fully agree with the above posts. I too have paid the membership fee & use the PDA set up to actualy check on hits to the caches I have hidden! I would hate to see this go away and as I use my PDA on a daily basis this would also affect my choice of renewing my subscription when it expires. I hate to clog my GPS w/hundreds of local/semi-local points that I may or may not hit but I have the room in my PDA. I have hit quite a few sites that weren't in my gps this way. I am also strangely disquieted by the lack of response on this topic from the geo-gods above.

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We're moving to .Net, working on a palmable eBook format for geocaches (both PocketPC and Palm/Handspring), and upgrading our format of XML to the GPX format Dan at Topografix has been working on. We're also working on some intricate searching tools to get just the caches you want.

 

I'm also trying to keep up with the traffic on the site, and trimming down the code to be more efficient. Not to mention the 100+ emails a day that I have to respond to.

 

If I'm here, debating with you guys, I'm not coding. I'm not in the business of creating "quick fixes" since I will ultimately need to support it, so have been doing a lot of research as to what a full, finished solution should be. It will happen, and will happen soon.

 

Jeremy

(currently ill)

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet

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quote:
We're moving to .Net, working on a palmable eBook format for geocaches (both PocketPC and Palm/Handspring), and upgrading our format of XML to the GPX format Dan at Topografix has been working on.

 

This sounds great. .Net has some cool features and is robust enough for the traffic we are getting here. It also has the means to easily make the data stream avialble for folks who are more comfortable with rolling their own without messing up the traffic or infrastructure.

 

Now the big question is, are we goin to get tossed in the DMCA clink for using the data?

 

I keep getting quoted the Terms of Use clauses by users who point out that it is a point of concern.

 

-tomwsmf

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

I keep getting quoted the Terms of Use clauses by users who point out that it is a point of concern.


 

"Keep getting" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd say. As far as I know, I'm the only one who mentioned it, and only once.

 

It's been pointed out to me that the "for personal use" and "don't do these things" clauses are separate clauses. Thus, taken to their logical extreme, the terms of use technically forbid copying the cache description to your clipboard and pasting it into Palm Desktop ("excerpt.") They forbid printing the cache page to take with you on your hunt ("copy.") It could be argued that they forbid accessing the website through a web proxy, ("transmit") or even at all, since your browser caches the results ("copy.")

 

Obviously, this is not the intent of the terms of use. The seeming intent of the terms of use is to provide a legal basis, such as it is, to back up any action that becomes necessary as the result of a massive republication of the data, perhaps on a competing website.

 

[This message was edited by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy on April 10, 2002 at 09:09 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

and upgrading our format of XML to the GPX format Dan at Topografix has been working on.


 

Not expecting Jeremy to come back and read this, but just in case he does...

 

Will your GPX files be putting the full cache description into the element for each waypoint? That would be, as the kids say, sweeeeeeeeeeet.

 

(Hope you're feeling better soon.)

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quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Leopard:
All the rest sounds great, but .NET sounds like a move that could cut non-Microsoft folks out of the loop icon_frown.gif


 

You need to read more about .NET

 

I'm primarily focusing on XML-based technologies (in ADO.NET and ASP.NET). .NET is an excellent foundation to build on XML. Passport is another discussion altogether.

 

Jeremy

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet

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quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Leopard:
All the rest sounds great, but .NET sounds like a move that could cut non-Microsoft folks out of the loop icon_frown.gif


 

You need to read more about .NET

 

I'm primarily focusing on XML-based technologies (in ADO.NET and ASP.NET). .NET is an excellent foundation to build on XML. Passport is another discussion altogether.

 

Jeremy

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet

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Even the rabidly-pro-Microsoft folks round here seem to think Passport should be avoided like the plague, and it is the brush that's tarred .NET the worst so far, but there do seem to be plenty of doubts being expressed about other aspects like security and lock-in too. How much of that is FUD, only time will tell... Oh well...

 

Just so long as it doesn't degrade the availability or legibility of my favorite website... icon_smile.gif

 

Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

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Even the rabidly-pro-Microsoft folks round here seem to think Passport should be avoided like the plague, and it is the brush that's tarred .NET the worst so far, but there do seem to be plenty of doubts being expressed about other aspects like security and lock-in too. How much of that is FUD, only time will tell... Oh well...

 

Just so long as it doesn't degrade the availability or legibility of my favorite website... icon_smile.gif

 

Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

 

"Keep getting" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd say. As far as I know, I'm the only one who mentioned it, and only once.


 

Geocaching.com is not the only place I have had a discusion about this issue.

 

The general concensus is that yes the Terms are legal shields to prevent someone from hauling off with the entire site and making an Idiots Guide To Geocaching.com and hitting the $$wave in the bookstores.

 

But as it stands it also acts to deter/hamper creative methods to use the data like the cool palmable data dumps many of us use.

 

From all I have read and gotten from the convos in the long term the best of both worlds would be a user license to allow use of the data for non profitable endevours but still keep folks from making bank with it.

 

Not a full copyleft but not a full copywrong license either.

 

The .net stuff sounds great. I have been dealing iwth it some at work. It can be a very cool tool and it is gaining tools from third partys to make it not so MS centric. The key to keeping things away fromthe worst of the MS junk is not tieing it down with the "easy" MS solutions. For instance.. Passporticon_smile.gif- I wouldnt touch it with someones elses 10 foot poll.

 

But some folks will, then again some people watch Freinds religioulsy. It takes all kinds, the trick is finding a way so one kind does nto have to compromise thier belifes to deal with the other kinds. MS is great for forcing..er...making it easier.. for folks to play the Conform-or-Get-Cut-Out game. .Net can be used that way, but it does not have to.

 

Its a tricky road, mind the user freindly landmines.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

 

"Keep getting" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd say. As far as I know, I'm the only one who mentioned it, and only once.


 

Geocaching.com is not the only place I have had a discusion about this issue.

 

The general concensus is that yes the Terms are legal shields to prevent someone from hauling off with the entire site and making an Idiots Guide To Geocaching.com and hitting the $$wave in the bookstores.

 

But as it stands it also acts to deter/hamper creative methods to use the data like the cool palmable data dumps many of us use.

 

From all I have read and gotten from the convos in the long term the best of both worlds would be a user license to allow use of the data for non profitable endevours but still keep folks from making bank with it.

 

Not a full copyleft but not a full copywrong license either.

 

The .net stuff sounds great. I have been dealing iwth it some at work. It can be a very cool tool and it is gaining tools from third partys to make it not so MS centric. The key to keeping things away fromthe worst of the MS junk is not tieing it down with the "easy" MS solutions. For instance.. Passport:)- I wouldnt touch it with someones elses 10 foot poll.

 

But some folks will, then again some people watch Freinds religioulsy. It takes all kinds, the trick is finding a way so one kind does nto have to compromise thier belifes to deal with the other kinds. MS is great for forcing..er...making it easier.. for folks to play the Conform-or-Get-Cut-Out game. .Net can be used that way, but it does not have to.

 

Its a tricky road, mind the user freindly landmines.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
MS is great for forcing..er...making it easier.. for folks to play the Conform-or-Get-Cut-Out game. .Net can be used that way, but it does not have to.
Yeah, I get bitten time and again by webservers out in the big bad wide world where the content has been prepared in such a way that it's "best viewed with ****" (for various values of ****). In some cases what that really means is "don't even bother trying to view this unless you're using ****". The mention of .NET raised that spectre for me, 'cos some corporate stuff in my company's intranet has been going that way...

 

Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

 

 

If I'm here, debating with you guys, I'm not coding. I'm not in the business of creating "quick fixes" since I will ultimately need to support it, so have been doing a lot of research as to what a full, finished solution should be. It will happen, and will happen soon.

 

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet


 

Never asked for a debate or a quick fix. Just wanted to know your opinion on the topic.

 

Did this topic switch forums? icon_confused.gif

 

- Lone Rangers

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

 

 

If I'm here, debating with you guys, I'm not coding. I'm not in the business of creating "quick fixes" since I will ultimately need to support it, so have been doing a lot of research as to what a full, finished solution should be. It will happen, and will happen soon.

 

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet


 

Never asked for a debate or a quick fix. Just wanted to know your opinion on the topic.

 

Did this topic switch forums? icon_confused.gif

 

- Lone Rangers

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I am a Charter member and I also have a handheld device, Visor, as well as a Garmin. I use the Garmin for geocaching. I think the idea to have palmable geodata is an interesting one, but after reading Brian's log on how he does it, I am going to have to side with Jeremy. Whether people like it or not, there is an issue of proprietary information and intellectual property here. This is not the first time "who owns what on the internet" has come up. I'm sure everyone is familar with various issues regarding music and other art forms.

Let me give an example. Say, I was an outdoor sporting goods retailer and have my own website. Say, I sell the same products as REI and at the same price. Instead of creating my own photos and text, I decide to set of scripts to download that info directly from REI's pages and then post them on mine. Does this raise any flags now??? What would REI do when they found out? Why would they be upset? One good reason is that they pay for the webserver and the internet time, and the webpage designers to create all those nice pages, and on and on. They own that information they post. If you printed a copy of REI's webpage for personal use, no one would care. But if you write scripts to take data from their pages to post on yours and post it for anyone to use...well, wouldn't you call that stealing? Keep in mind the geocaching.com has to pay for the servers, and website delvelopers, and the internet time, etc. Jeremy is letting all of us have access to his site free of charge. Sorry folks, but I do not think people are really using their noggins here. I think geocaching.com has a right to block people from stealing their data...their independent work, just as much as I have a right to block hackers from stealing personal information from my computer through the use of cookies, scripts, etc. Is there an attorney out there who wishes to comment?

I think that if geocaching.com wants to go into a business venture with Brian for using a palmable format for geocaching data, then we all need to be ready to help pay for that service if we want to use it. NWClimber

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if we are supposed to watch out and not harm the inviornment then why are we wasting all this paper to print on rather than downloading. it makes no sense. i thought we have come along way (tech-wise) in that we should not even be having this discussion. if i had a project like this )very successful in over 121 countries) i would definitely be up to date. your site would only get stronger and better. think about it!!!

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I did a Geocaching PQA (For palms that support PQA's such as VII and Kyrocera Smartphone).

 

Email me: mrcpu@myrealbox.com

Make the exact subject "Send PQA" so my autoreply rule will send it to you!

 

Thanks and let me know how it works.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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quote:
Originally posted by nw climber:

 

Sorry folks, but I do not think people are really using their noggins here. I think geocaching.com has a right to block people from stealing their data...their independent work


 

Actualy geocaching.com does not make much of the data, they simply reformat waht the Users, thats me and you, put into it. You cant steal from geocaching.com what they dont own.

 

This is not a matter of content creation as it is content reguritation. The real value of geocaching.com is in how cool it makes the data we put up look. Its so cool in fact I pay to use use it. They own the look and feel and the services they wrap around the data...not the data itself.

 

The data itself, thats not geocaching.com's at all, its the property of those who put it up in the first place. This data can be used on many differnt sites and it is.

 

The crux of the orignal biscut here was being able to easily get the data into a palm pilot. The question has been rendered moot for now in that there are several methods to get all the data you want from geocaching.com and hoover it up into your palm.

 

Its a mobility problem not a legal ownership one cause geocaching.com no more owns most of the data here than the yellow page makers do phone numbers.

 

Unless geocaching.com wants to start doing DMCA style litigation and loosing hordes of its users there is no real problem that innovation cant overcome. Jeremy himself is working on a .net solution whereas others have already crafted other methods.

 

In the end though its all about geocaching, the act not the web site.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

This is not a matter of content creation as it is content reguritation. The real value of geocaching.com is in how cool it makes the data we put up look. Its so cool in fact I pay to use use it. They own the look and feel and the services they wrap around the data...not the data itself.


 

The real value of geocaching.com, to the casual cacher, is that it puts all of those caches in the same place and wraps a nice search engine around them. Go try to find the closest ten waypoints to your current location over at waypoint.org, for example, and then reflect on how easy it is to do the same thing with geocaches. I don't care how nice or not-nice it looks if I can't find it.

 

warm.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

Go try to find the closest ten waypoints to your current location over at waypoint.org, for example, and then reflect on how easy it is to do the same thing with geocaches. I don't care how nice or not-nice it looks if I can't find it.


 

Beautifully said my hot-n-furry friend.

 

I once stated a long time ago that geocaching might have started with the drop of SA, but it wouldn't have gone anywhere without this site.

 

If they re-instated SA, we'd still be able to geocache but more clues would be required. Without sites like this or some other effective way of funneling information to the masses in a way that can be readily digested, there wouldn't be a hobby of geocaching.

 

I'm a big usenet fan, but if we were supposed to post coordinates and manually look this stuff up (like the first few caches) there would be less than a hundred people practicing this hobby in the entire world.

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quote:
Originally posted by nw climber:

...Say, I was an outdoor sporting goods retailer and have my own website. Say, I sell the same products as REI and at the same price. Instead of creating my own photos and text, I decide to set of scripts to download that info directly from REI's pages and then post them on mine. Does this raise any flags now??? What would REI do when they found out? Why would they be upset? One good reason is that they pay for the webserver and the internet time, and the webpage designers to create all those nice pages, and on and on. They own that information they post. If you printed a copy of REI's webpage for personal use, no one would care. But if you write scripts to take data from their pages to post on yours and post it for anyone to use...well, wouldn't you call that stealing? ...SNIP NWClimber


 

I think we agree here... but what we are asking for (and what I think I hear Jeremy working on) is something the end user can consume.

 

For example, I (being a cacher and a charter member), log into the goecaching site. I know I am going to be visiting some friends in say Cedar Rapids. I want to search on any cache within 100 miles and less than 6 months old (or logged as found within XX number of days... since I hate old and abdandoned caches). I put in my search criteria and get back 75 or so caches. I now want to download them into my GPS, no problem. However, I have to open EACH one to print it (and kill ALOT of trees) or save and massage the data to get into my Palm. ExpertGPS imports XML FABULOUSLY and there are XML browsers for my PDA. As a matter of fact, that is how I am working this now (I still have to cut and paste the cache description into the XML code). Seems like a good fit to me, one file and BAM! I am able to consume the service as an end user.

 

Bear & Ting

 

P.S. Jeremy, if you find yourself needing any help, look me up.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

 

The real value of geocaching.com, to the casual cacher, is that it puts all of those caches in the same place and wraps a nice search engine around them. Go try to find the closest ten waypoints to your current location over at waypoint.org, for example, and then reflect on how easy it is to do the same thing with geocaches. I don't care how nice or not-nice it looks if I can't find it.

 


 

Yes, but where did that data come from ?

 

Did geocaching.com create it?

 

The idea under this is VALUE ADDED SERVICE, the added serivce is what I am paying Geocaching.com for.

 

The DATA though they are using to Add Value to is not thiers exclusivley.

 

And thats teh crux of the biscuit about using the data for use in other formats.

 

Think of it this way...AOL users pay extra money to have a nice front end put on the internet for them. Thats great...but it does not mean, as much as they want it to, AOL owns the data on the internet that AOL users see.

 

I pay money to use geocaching.com. I love the place. The data that I am seeing on the site though is not owned by geocaching.com anymore than phone numbers are by phone book manufacturers.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

 

The idea under this is VALUE ADDED SERVICE, the added serivce is what I am paying Geocaching.com for.

 

The DATA though they are using to Add Value to is not thiers exclusivley.


 

True, but that doesn't mean you can just use it. You have to get permission from the owner of that data to use it, and you just might have to get a copy of that data directly from the owner rather than from geocaching.com. Just because it's not exclusively geocaching.com's data doesn't mean you can just use it indiscriminately.

 

quote:

I pay money to use geocaching.com. I love the place. The data that I am seeing on the site though is not owned by geocaching.com anymore than phone numbers are by phone book manufacturers.


 

This is where you're wrong. Phone numbers are considered essentially public domain. The data on geocaching.com, while not owned by geocaching.com, is owned by somebody. You probably don't have that person's permission to use the data. So, in fact, geocaching.com owns the data even less than phone book manufacturers own phone numbers (in that public domain data is, in a sense, owned by everyone including phone book manufacturers.)

Again, that does not give you the right to use the data however you want to. If you want that right, you have to contact each individual owner and negotiate that right.

 

The situation is more like this: Waldenbooks sells you a handful of books. Waldenbooks does not own the text that's printed in those books. That does not mean that you get to copy those books and give the copies to your friends, does it?

 

warm.gif

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quote:
The situation is more like this: Waldenbooks sells you a handful of books. Waldenbooks does not own the text that's printed in those books. That does not mean that you get to copy those books and give the copies to your friends, does it?

 

Lets extend the analogy and play with the terms:

 

Waldonbook sells you a copy of the US Constitution. Can you copy THAT for your friends?

 

Does Waldonbook control the distribution of the Constitution or do they merely charge YOU for their reproduction of it? Do they pay royalties to the estates of the founding fathers for their intellectual property?

 

If I write a poem encapsulated with the EXPLICIT permission for it to be freely distributed, and give you a copy, could you copy it for your friends? Could you include it in a book of Poetry for you to sell? Would you owe me royalties?

 

Does EXPLICIT permission make a difference when compared to IMPLICIT permission? (i.e. the Constitution, as information, is implicitly free for distribution due to the nature of its purpose and writing. Is it a different situation than me granting similar rights for my own work?)

 

I submit that data entered by GeoCachers to this website are Implicitly free for distribution. People post caches to be viewed and found by others. Groundspeak provides a "publishing" service, to be sure. But do they own the intellectual entity created by a user of the service?

 

Does use of this site (i.e. posting a cache) grant unconditional ownership of that intellectual entity to the "publisher"?

 

If the answer to my last question is 'yes', I'll stick to racing cars and writing music and poety, and let this hobby just pass. At least then I'll know I own the stuff I build and write and I can grant usership and distribution as _I_ see fit.

 

EDIT: I also wish to add, as a caveat, that as a webmaster I understand full-well that the website itself, the "code" of it in as much as it supports the "publishing" process _IS_ indeed owned by the website. I do NOT wish to imply that Groundspeak, or any other website, should or must provide its Value-Add for free, or even for public distribution.

 

Furthermore, that bandwidth represents a "publishing cost", I fully support the notion of recovering such costs AT A PROFIT in much the same way Waldonbooks would profit from the sale of a copy of the US Constitution.

 

My questions here are only meant to guide the issue to this assertion: That information created, in any way, for free public consumption carries with it an implicit license for continued redistribution, and that the act of publishing said information does not manifest ownership or control of it.

 

[This message was edited by Herbie555 on May 30, 2002 at 06:38 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Herbie555:

Lets extend the analogy and play with the terms:


Most analogies tend to show stress fractures when extended, but okay...

quote:

Waldonbook sells you a copy of the US Constitution. Can you copy THAT for your friends?


Sure. It's in the public domain for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that it was published long enough ago that any copyright it might have been entitled to expired over a century ago. It's not at all comparable to a cache description or photograph that I might have produced last week.

quote:

If I write a poem encapsulated with the EXPLICIT permission for it to be freely distributed, and give you a copy, could you copy it for your friends? Could you include it in a book of Poetry for you to sell? Would you owe me royalties?


If you release it into the public domain, it's fair game. I can copy it, I can sell it, I can anthologize it, I can modify it, and I can perform a dramatic reading of it on the Tonight Show and I don't have to pay you a penny or acknowledge your contribution in any way.

quote:

Does EXPLICIT permission make a difference when compared to IMPLICIT permission? (i.e. the Constitution, as information, is implicitly free for distribution due to the nature of its purpose and writing. Is it a different situation than me granting similar rights for my own work?)


Again, the Constitution is a bad choice, because it's in the public domain by virtue of its age. Nothing produced in the US in the past few decades has been implicitly public domain (in fact, the Supreme Court will be hearing a case sometime this session to determine the constitutionality of a law that helped make that the case.) The only recently-created things that are in the public domain are those things that have been explicitly released into the public domain.

quote:

Does use of this site (i.e. posting a cache) grant unconditional ownership of that intellectual entity to the "publisher"?


Nobody's arguing that it does. But publishing a cache description here also doesn't relinquish all of the rights the creator already had. One of those rights is for Joe Random Internet User to not take his images and text and use them for unauthorized purposes.

quote:

My questions here are only meant to guide the issue to this assertion: That information created, in any way, for free public consumption carries with it an implicit license for continued redistribution


There is lots of information created for free public consumption that is nonetheless not in the public domain -- Billboards, radio and TV programs and ads, informational brochures, the free state highway maps you pick up at Interstate rest areas... Cache descriptions are in that category, too: you're free to read them, use the information in them, and tell your friends about them, but you need permission of some sort from the copyright owner - the cache's creator - to publish them yourself.

quote:

and that the act of publishing said information does not manifest ownership or control of it.


This is true, but basically irrelevant. It's true that Geocaching.com does not own the cache descriptions, but that doesn't mean that nobody owns them. If I loan my collection of used toothpaste tubes to the local art museum for a special exhibit, the museum doesn't own them, but that doesn't entitle you to just take them for yourself.

 

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I have my own web site scripts in PHP that extract the data into a nicely reduced form for Plucker to use. I had this script publicly available for a while, but then it was blocked.

I still use it for my own purposes though...it's great when I travel. I was just up in DC and plugged in a few zipcodes worth of caches and downloaded them into my Palm Vx. With a Minstrel wireless modem I'm also able to log them on-line, although usually I did a cursory log and then filled it in later when I had access to a real computer. icon_smile.gif

The alternative was burning thru a lot of paper on my printer for caches that I might or might not visit.

I hope this feature is added to GC.com...it's definitely workable and will be useful to many folks. I'd offer to help, but I'm sure my unix / open source guru skills won't be very handy with the Windows / .NET infrastructure here. icon_smile.gif Be glad to do whatever I can though...even if it's just alpha testing.

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I have my own web site scripts in PHP that extract the data into a nicely reduced form for Plucker to use. I had this script publicly available for a while, but then it was blocked.

I still use it for my own purposes though...it's great when I travel. I was just up in DC and plugged in a few zipcodes worth of caches and downloaded them into my Palm Vx. With a Minstrel wireless modem I'm also able to log them on-line, although usually I did a cursory log and then filled it in later when I had access to a real computer. icon_smile.gif

The alternative was burning thru a lot of paper on my printer for caches that I might or might not visit.

I hope this feature is added to GC.com...it's definitely workable and will be useful to many folks. I'd offer to help, but I'm sure my unix / open source guru skills won't be very handy with the Windows / .NET infrastructure here. icon_smile.gif Be glad to do whatever I can though...even if it's just alpha testing.

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Actually this feature is even more handy for Benchmark hunting than it is for geocaching. In my area there are hundreds of benchmarks and only dozens of caches...it's a lot easier to walk around with the benchmark data in my Palm Vx than to try to print pages up for each benchmark I might come across.

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quote:
Originally posted by infosponge:

I have my own web site scripts in PHP that extract the data into a nicely reduced form for Plucker to use. I had this script publicly available for a while, but then it was blocked.


 

Would the code for this be available somewhere? Id love tobe able to mine my own..and plucker I love to pieces.

 

quote:
Originally posted by infosponge:

 

but I'm sure my unix / open source guru skills won't be very handy with the Windows / .NET infrastructure here. icon_smile.gif Be glad to do whatever I can though...even if it's just alpha testing.


 

Same here. Windows/.net is such a great way to limit the talent pool. Hopefully the .net python hooks will get better and we can help out.

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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