Dirty Cached FTF?

[+Team Van Dyk]

We set out this series on Friday: http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=6a7ad5be-0401-4a1c-ae90-b3d098d00bbe

 

It includes a seriously difficult Multi (which, frankly, contributes substantially to the D5 rating of the Mystery final).

 

Well, turns out that someone found I-III in the series, was unable to find the Multi, but had enough info from I-III that they were able to dirty cache the Mystery final.

 

Yes, I know, this is partly on me for failing to account for that (I'll be correcting that this week).

 

But, question is, should that qualify as FTF on the Mystery final?

 

I'm inclined to say "yes" (after all, he was "first to find" regardless of how he did it), but my partner in this series is not so sure.

 

Thoughts?

 

--Matt

[+briansnat]

If the cache has been found, subsequent finders can't possibly be FTF.

[knowschad]

"Dirty cache"? What does that mean? If you mean they were smart enough to figure it out, I would hardly call that "dirty". Must be a local term. If I'm right, around here, we call it "brute forcing".

 

As to "should" it qualify as FTF? Were they the first to find it?

[+addisonbr]

But, question is, should that qualify as FTF on the Mystery final?

Hey Matt -

 

In my opinion, yes, absolutely. I think you've nailed the two most important points -

 

1) He did find it regardless of how he did it, and in some quarters brute forcing part of a puzzle (or using deduction to rule out possible answers because of the proximity rule, solving for the longitude and searching all along the latitude looking for the container, etc. etc. etc.) is a perfectly accepted part of what differentiates solving geocaching puzzles from solving other kinds of puzzles.

 

and

 

2) That it's "partly on [you]" for failing to account for that. I run into this on my puzzles occasionally myself - I'll do debriefs with my early finders and if it turns out that a lot of them solved it in a very unintended way (or "dirty cached" it, to borrow your delightful phrase which I'll be using from now on) I'll figure out how to plug the holes.

 

It seems like you're being a pretty good sport about it all... Tipping your hat to the FTF and closing the loophole is probably the healthiest way to move forward on this.

 

It's certainly not very angsty, as a lot of other possible responses would wind up being...

 

Good luck!

[+Team Van Dyk]

"Dirty cache"? What does that mean? If you mean they were smart enough to figure it out, I would hardly call that "dirty". Must be a local term. If I'm right, around here, we call it "brute forcing".

 

As to "should" it qualify as FTF? Were they the first to find it?

 

Huh, interesting. Maybe it is a local term. Means they found it without the coordinates. I don't think "dirty" refers to it being "dirty" as in "dirty pool"; I think it's a reference to not doing it "cleanly".

 

That's my sense on FTF. Just curious what others thought.

[+Chokecherry]

Shoot if they wanted to spend that much time working on the cache without the coordinates more power to them. I've done it one time on a cache that was moved in order to resurrect it and don't have the patience to ever try that again. Seems like more work than solving the puzzle would be but more power to them.

 

I know I've skipped steps in multis simply because I had information at hand (if they say get such and such from a sign or whatever). I'm have no qualms about using my knowledge and using it to my advantage.

[+t4e]

were able to dirty cache the Mystery final.

 

 

its called übercaching

[+slukster]

I guess I have "dirty cached" one time on a local 5/5 where the one stage I could not find the clue that gave me one digit of the final. Based on the hint and the math problem used to deduce the digit, I was able to figure the digit to be 1 of 3 possible digits. I plugged in three sets of coordinates into the GPSr which ended up being right in line and maybe .2 miles apart and figured I would go to each one until I found a likely spot. Ended up finding the cache at the first set of coordinates. I actually had some friction with the CO before seeking this cache (unrelated to this cache) so I didn't mention how I arrived at the final in fear he would try to justify deleting the log. I did email the next set of cache finders as to where they found the info for the stage I couldn't find and none of them has gotten back to me so I am guessing they got some help from a friend and didn't find that stage either. Or maybe they don't like me.

[+niraD]

Around here, we use the term "brute force" to describe ways of finding a cache other than the way the CO intended (e.g., without solving the puzzle, or without finding all the caches in a series for a bonus cache, or without finding all the stages of a multi-cache).

[+GeoGeeBee]

They found it, they signed the log... it's a find, no matter how they found it.

 

They found it and signed the log before anyone else found it and signed the log. That means they are FTF.

[+Doctroid]

No rule says a finder has to use the coordinates to find the cache, or has to solve the puzzle to find a puzzle cache. For that matter there are no rules regarding FTF.

 

If you as CO want to acknowledge a find, whether FTF or FTSP* or FTFAFFMAWS,** it's up to you.

I'd say they were indeed FTF, but you can disagree.

 

*First To Solve the Puzzle

**First To Find After the First Full Moon After the Winter Solstice

 

Edited July 5, 2011 by Doctroid

[+bflentje]

I brute forced the final of a multicache just yesterday. The puzzle was so poorly worded I could not make heads or tales of it. Luckily, there were enough hints for a seasoned cacher to guess the GZ and sure enough, found it in under 5 minutes of looking. Can't blame me for that.. though, I was onlt STF on this cache in question.

[+lamoracke]

its not pure, but nothing morally wrong or dirty with a brute force find. Folks only resort to brute forcing if the intended method is not working out easily. I have solved some puzzles in interesting ways doing it ways not intended. If you are in a multi and you realize that only #s 4 or 5 will keep the coordinates in the park and you have trouble with that part, nothing wrong with then trying to see which one is right by brute force...4 or 5.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Local to me that's known as Jet skiing a cache, from a cacher, Jetskier, who was quite good at just getting to the end of puzzles or multis without doing the puzzle or finding all the stages.

 

I used to do a fair amount of it, and still will on occasion. It can be an enjoyable exercise in itself.

 

There's a 5/5 multi in my part of the world, I know where the final is from pictures on the cache page. I was somewhat sure of it when the cache was new, from an image the cache owner posted; but later images of cachers has cemented my certainty. Of course, I spend as much time loafing in that swamp as the cache owner, this is not a technique that will yield a find for many, but it will for me.

 

I've found caches in parks where you're building coords, ABC DEF, and quit working on the stages when I had B and E, because that's really all I needed. Once I skipped an entire puzzle, because the cache page said the bogus coords were for parking, and from that spot, there were only 2 areas available for a new cache (big multi in the area tied it up). I checked 'em both and found the cache.

[+d+n.s]

Local to me that's known as Jet skiing a cache, from a cacher, Jetskier, who was quite good at just getting to the end of puzzles or multis without doing the puzzle or finding all the stages.

 

I used to do a fair amount of it, and still will on occasion. It can be an enjoyable exercise in itself.

 

There's a 5/5 multi in my part of the world, I know where the final is from pictures on the cache page. I was somewhat sure of it when the cache was new, from an image the cache owner posted; but later images of cachers has cemented my certainty. Of course, I spend as much time loafing in that swamp as the cache owner, this is not a technique that will yield a find for many, but it will for me.

 

I've found caches in parks where you're building coords, ABC DEF, and quit working on the stages when I had B and E, because that's really all I needed. Once I skipped an entire puzzle, because the cache page said the bogus coords were for parking, and from that spot, there were only 2 areas available for a new cache (big multi in the area tied it up). I checked 'em both and found the cache.

Woah...

Clever stuff

[+Jonovich]

They found it, they signed the log... it's a find, no matter how they found it.

 

As long as it's not a Challenge cache, where finding the cache and signing the log doesn't count unless you've met other criteria...

 

Jon

[+niraD]

FWIW, there's a mystery/puzzle cache around here that the CO intends for people to solve by brute force: http://coord.info/GC1VQVG

[+lamoracke]

Local to me that's known as Jet skiing a cache, from a cacher, Jetskier, who was quite good at just getting to the end of puzzles or multis without doing the puzzle or finding all the stages.

 

I used to do a fair amount of it, and still will on occasion. It can be an enjoyable exercise in itself.

 

There's a 5/5 multi in my part of the world, I know where the final is from pictures on the cache page. I was somewhat sure of it when the cache was new, from an image the cache owner posted; but later images of cachers has cemented my certainty. Of course, I spend as much time loafing in that swamp as the cache owner, this is not a technique that will yield a find for many, but it will for me.

 

I've found caches in parks where you're building coords, ABC DEF, and quit working on the stages when I had B and E, because that's really all I needed. Once I skipped an entire puzzle, because the cache page said the bogus coords were for parking, and from that spot, there were only 2 areas available for a new cache (big multi in the area tied it up). I checked 'em both and found the cache.

Woah...

Clever stuff

 

we had a multi around here which provided parking coords for the final and a long series of instructions for the various parts. In fact, it would have taken like over 20 miles to complete it. However, with parking coords and the knowledge of the CO's prior archived cache, we went to parking and found the cache within 30 seconds (besides, it was a regular). Thus, if you are going to make a multi that is 25 miles, make it harder to brute force.

 

Course the reality is, if you force 25 miles of driving, many friends will just share the final coordinates anyway, but that is a different subject.

[+NeverSummer]

Does this mean "found it" doesn't equal "found it"?

 

Finding a cache means finding a cache. Even muggles find caches without trying to solve anything, and they can certainly count it if they want to start logging finds on geocaching.com.

Edited July 5, 2011 by NeverSummer

[+DanOCan]

But, question is, should that qualify as FTF on the Mystery final?

 

I'm inclined to say "yes" (after all, he was "first to find" regardless of how he did it), but my partner in this series is not so sure.

 

I think you are right and your partner is wrong.

[Allie McG]

If you as CO want to acknowledge a find, whether FTF or FTSP* or FTFAFFMAWS,** it's up to you.

I'd say they were indeed FTF, but you can disagree.

 

*First To Solve the Puzzle

**First To Find After the First Full Moon After the Winter Solstice

 

Actually, fun idea. Whenever I get around to being a CO, I might just do this - come up with other 'honors' to bestow.

 

FTFOMB = First To Find On My Birthday

FTFOC1YA = First To Find On Cache's 1st Year Anniversary

OH&FTF = One Hundred and First To Find

 

I just can't think of something clever to make the acronyms FTFOMG or FTFWTF...

[+Hypnopaedia]

If you as CO want to acknowledge a find, whether FTF or FTSP* or FTFAFFMAWS,** it's up to you.

I'd say they were indeed FTF, but you can disagree.

 

*First To Solve the Puzzle

**First To Find After the First Full Moon After the Winter Solstice

 

Actually, fun idea. Whenever I get around to being a CO, I might just do this - come up with other 'honors' to bestow.

 

FTFOMB = First To Find On My Birthday

FTFOC1YA = First To Find On Cache's 1st Year Anniversary

OH&FTF = One Hundred and First To Find

 

I just can't think of something clever to make the acronyms FTFOMG or FTFWTF...

FTFWTF = First To Find With Ten Friends

[Allie McG]

FTFWTF = First To Find With Ten Friends

 

ROLF! Come to think of it, every find could be FTFWTF if you use both your hands.

[+Max and 99]

It happens here! I've done it, and others have done it to my puzzle caches. Give the cacher credit for being able to figure out the final coords. That takes skill!