+Sioneva Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (What is the FUITH group? Do I really want to know?) Best I could find is the acronym for F'd up in the head. The only group I could connect to this from my point of view are the The Westboro Baptist Church. Needless to say, I really hope thats not what they are getting at, because thats the meanest group you could tie someone to imo. Hopefully my conjecture is wrong. Internet mind reading usually is... I'm hoping you're wrong too... if you're not, I don't think I should be the only one apologizing here. And now I'm really gone. Link to comment
+Stealth Bobber Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 We were wondering if there are any gay groups that organize to do geocaching? So far, none of our gay friends seem to like geocaching as much as we do. [/quo Northwest Florida here......where are you located? Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Why are you making fun of this? If you were gay you would understand how difficult it is to be out there with people who don't approve of your lifestyle. It's easy to say just don't bring it up. But it's a part of who these people are. You can't just not talk about it any more than I can't talk about my wife and marriage. Sure, it shouldn't really be a part of the forums. The forums should be more general. But all the OP asked was if a group existed. He didn't try to gaynize any of you or push his sexual preference on anyone. And that is the whole problem in a nutshell. Most people hear the word "gay" and start thinking about sex acts. Most don't stop to think about how much of their own lives is wrapped up in their own straight sexual orientation, how much they casually talk about their wives and husbands and families and such and don't give a second of hesitation in doing so. Gay people have to stop and ask themselves constantly...is it safe to talk about my partner? Is it safe to say their name? Will I be judged and shunned simply because of WHO I AM?? It isn't any wonder that they tend to feel more at ease with people who can truly understand what that experience is like. Hence the desire to find other gay people to cache with. I agree with mresoteric concerning those coming over to the darkside to discuss the matter in the OT style. If you have to suggest people google your response, you are definitely out of line. Details about your group should not be discussed here whether someone agrees with it or not. I don't talk about my local Iowa club and neither should you. Didn't say it has to be hidden, but this isn't the place. Ask me about the club and I'll give you a link. Edited July 7, 2011 by BlueDeuce Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Dude chill. It was just getting a bit too serious so I tried to lighten the mood. I'll head on back to OT. It's not as tense there. Says the guy in drag, wearing the avatar of a female forum user. Link to comment
+ThePetersTrio Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Why are you making fun of this? If you were gay you would understand how difficult it is to be out there with people who don't approve of your lifestyle. It's easy to say just don't bring it up. But it's a part of who these people are. You can't just not talk about it any more than I can't talk about my wife and marriage. Sure, it shouldn't really be a part of the forums. The forums should be more general. But all the OP asked was if a group existed. He didn't try to gaynize any of you or push his sexual preference on anyone. And that is the whole problem in a nutshell. Most people hear the word "gay" and start thinking about sex acts. Most don't stop to think about how much of their own lives is wrapped up in their own straight sexual orientation, how much they casually talk about their wives and husbands and families and such and don't give a second of hesitation in doing so. Gay people have to stop and ask themselves constantly...is it safe to talk about my partner? Is it safe to say their name? Will I be judged and shunned simply because of WHO I AM?? It isn't any wonder that they tend to feel more at ease with people who can truly understand what that experience is like. Hence the desire to find other gay people to cache with. I agree with mresoteric concerning those coming over to the darkside to discuss the matter in the OT style. If you have to suggest people google your response, you are definitely out of line. Details about your group should not be discussed here whether someone agrees with it or not. I don't talk about my local Iowa club and neither should you. Didn't say it has to be hidden, but this isn't the place. Ask me about the club and I'll give you a link. Um...when did I say anything about Google? Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Um...when did I say anything about Google? Not you, silly. Link to comment
+ThePetersTrio Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Um...when did I say anything about Google? Not you, silly. Oh...I guess when someone uses your post as part of a quote and then replies to what you said using "you" in the reply it can sort of seem like they are talking to you. Doesn't it? [edit to add] I don't see how discussing this particular group here is any different then say topics such as, "How did you serve?" etc. If I were a mod (and thank goodness I'm not) I may move the thread to the "Organized Geocaching" section. The fact that it hasn't been moved (yet) tells me either a) the mods haven't seen it yet or B ) the thread is in the correct subforum. Time will tell which is one it is. Edited July 7, 2011 by ThePetersTrio Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Um...when did I say anything about Google? Not you, silly. Oh...I guess when someone uses your post as part of a quote and then replies to what you said using "you" in the reply it can sort of seem like they are talking to you. Doesn't it? [edit to add] I don't see how discussing this particular group here is any different then say topics such as, "How did you serve?" etc. If I were a mod (and thank goodness I'm not) I may move the thread to the "Organized Geocaching" section. The fact that it hasn't been moved (yet) tells me either a) the mods haven't seen it yet or B ) the thread is in the correct subforum. Time will tell which is one it is. Sorry. The subject and point can be hard to convey in a forum quote. Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 [edit to add] I don't see how discussing this particular group here is any different then say topics such as, "How did you serve?" etc. If I were a mod (and thank goodness I'm not) I may move the thread to the "Organized Geocaching" section. The fact that it hasn't been moved (yet) tells me either a) the mods haven't seen it yet or B ) the thread is in the correct subforum. Time will tell which is one it is. "Organized Geocaching" is in fact where you'll find the Singles thread that I linked, my point being that there is an implied "Straight" in there. So yeah, maybe this should follow suit. Link to comment
+OregonCacher Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Um...when did I say anything about Google? Not you, silly. Oh...I guess when someone uses your post as part of a quote and then replies to what you said using "you" in the reply it can sort of seem like they are talking to you. Doesn't it? [edit to add] I don't see how discussing this particular group here is any different then say topics such as, "How did you serve?" etc. If I were a mod (and thank goodness I'm not) I may move the thread to the "Organized Geocaching" section. The fact that it hasn't been moved (yet) tells me either a) the mods haven't seen it yet or B ) the thread is in the correct subforum. Time will tell which is one it is. There are many other reasons as to why this thread has not been locked, moved, or removed. What you made above is called a fallacy! Link to comment
+DonB Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 That's really all I have to say on this topic. I can't make people understand what it's like to live this life or feel the way I feel. Or have to be faced with the threats and violence I have been faced with just because of who I love. I can't ever make people understand but I wish I could. you also have to understand how many of the straight people feel. I may have homosexual friends and not even know it, but if I do they apparently don't throw it in my face. Personally the thought of having sex with another man turns my stomach. In my opinion what gives the homosexual community a bum rap with the straight people is the groups like act out or whatever they call themselves. There was an incident in Madison, WI where a bunch of lesbians went into a mans restaurant and started making out. He didn't ask them to leave he just ask them to quit doing what they were doing because other customers were getting up and leaving. They left and came back the next day and started picketing him until he ended up making a public apology. I think sexual preference or anything else sexual should be kept private. If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Link to comment
+Chokecherry Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Why can't I admit to having a girlfriend but you can admit to having a wife? You missed the point. It has NOTHING to do with a sexual fetish but a simple relationship. You cam talk about your opposite sexed partner in the open but if I talk of a same sec partner in the same capacity andanner of which you spoke of yours I am shoving my sexuality in your face. How exactly does that make sense. And it's quote obvious had you bothered to read my post I am accutely aware of te straight community's potential discomfort if not outward hate toward me ad others. Which if you had read my post you would note is why at times I prefer to be in gay groups. Link to comment
+geodarts Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) I think sexual preference or anything else sexual should be kept private. If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Sexual preference? I walk down the street with my wife, occasionally holding hands, we sit next to each other on a bench and then go to get a coffee together. Most people know our sexual preference. My married friends do the same, taking their kids to a park, holding hands and enjoying a nice afternoon - people may be able to guess their sexual preference as well - that they are both women should make no difference. I know the sexual preference of my friends and colleagues because it is part of who we are as human beings, not because any of us are advertising. Yes, if people wanted to bring their partner on a caching trip dressed in costume or come to a caching event with their wives or husbands on leash, I would probably think that I am being told more about their sexuality than I need to know at that particular time and place. I have not seen that happen as it pertains to caching, although some people (regardless of their sexual orientation) will display sexuality in public. In the ideal world we might accept everyone for who they are and sexual preference would be irrelevant to the caching community. I like to think that we come close to this where I live. But people cache together for all sorts of reasons - shared beliefs, common experiences, and even sexual preferences - the same as they do any number of other things together. There is no reason why a group, informal or formal, couldn't make that happen for anyone who is interested in this game. Edited July 7, 2011 by mulvaney Link to comment
+ThePetersTrio Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Um...when did I say anything about Google? Not you, silly. Oh...I guess when someone uses your post as part of a quote and then replies to what you said using "you" in the reply it can sort of seem like they are talking to you. Doesn't it? [edit to add] I don't see how discussing this particular group here is any different then say topics such as, "How did you serve?" etc. If I were a mod (and thank goodness I'm not) I may move the thread to the "Organized Geocaching" section. The fact that it hasn't been moved (yet) tells me either a) the mods haven't seen it yet or B ) the thread is in the correct subforum. Time will tell which is one it is. There are many other reasons as to why this thread has not been locked, moved, or removed. What you made above is called a fallacy! OMG - not a fallacy!. Please note the smiley face emoticons and the use of the phrase "tells me". It is an opinion made in a lighthearted manner, in case you couldn't tell. Frankly, I hope the thread stays here and stays open. The discussion has been quite illuminating so far. Link to comment
+ThePetersTrio Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 In the ideal world we might accept everyone for who they are and sexual preference would be irrelevant to the caching community. I like to think that we come close to this where I live. But people cache together for all sorts of reasons - shared beliefs, common experiences, and even sexual preferences - the same as they do any number of other things together. There is no reason why a group, informal or formal, couldn't make that happen for anyone who is interested in this game. Well said. It seems to be much the same way for cachers in our community. Thankfully. Link to comment
+Stealth Bobber Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I feel that it should be said that there is a keen difference between creating a geocaching group based off of one's occupation or religion, than one created solely because on one's sexual orientation. As one other poster attested to, if we are at a geocaching event for example, and some geocacher there is being obnoxious enough that others around them are informed of their sexual orientation; that's an issue in itself. We cannot compare "geocaching groups" equally across eachother. What if I created a neo-nazi geocaching group? Culturally, would that be seen as equal as a "military" geocacher's group? Something tells me there is a reason that there is a lack of "gay geocaching groups" in the community; and it has nothing to do with a "minority vs majority" issue... but moreover that sexual orientation has never had a place in this hobby, or many others for that matter; it's not culturally appropriate, regardless of which sexual preference it is. I think it has a lot to do with intolerance, mis/disinformation and good, ol' fashioned history. (And that it sounds like you only know "gays" from unfortunate stereotypes if you think "they" are "obnoxious" or feel the need to blurt our their sexual orientation at events...) It's things like that which make "them" "different" to you. "They" shouldn't have to share their orientation, as it shouldn't be an issue to you. If someone at an event didn't say a word about sexual orientation, but you "found out" that they were gay, how would you react? Would you suddenly change your behavior? Avoid them? Badmouth them? Or would you not care and look at them as a person who isn't offending you in any other way than the fact that you suddenly are fixating on their sexual orientation? Explain to me how a religiously affiliated group is different from a "gay" group. Just because you don't share views with a "gay" group, you think they don't deserve recognition? So would you be ok with a Pastafarian geocaching group, or would that upset your sensibilities as a Christian? The OP simply wanted to get into the game in a comfortable setting. This is no different than me saying something like I don't want to cache with people from the south, because they talk about different things than I do as a northerner. (Which isn't true, btw) I'm with MisterEFQ and MadamSmall. Nobody ever said that you had to hang out with a "gay geocaching group" if you don't want to. But why tell a respectful, non-violent, well-intentioned person that they cannot ask if there is a group of like-minded cachers that would make the game more welcoming? Well said! Some of the "forum regulars" need to find something else to do besides monitor the forums for any new posts just so they can start c*$p with anyone who posts in them. I am a Proud Lesbian Geocacher and if there was a Gay Geocaching group I'd surely join it. Just like I'd join a group of my co-workers if they had a group. To lcandela123, you will just have to over look the negative people on here....there aren't many, but we all know how it goes....there's always the few who ruin things for everyon else..... ... Peace Out Link to comment
+Stealth Bobber Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Some folks will fool a fella. We'd been out on the gun range with our carrier battle group. When my destroyer docked in San Diego me and some of the sailors from my division hit the bars. I latched on to this one good looking gal and started buying her drinks. We danced and as the night progressed so did the bar-room romance, until we were making out pretty good. I finally got my hand up her skirt, reaching for heaven, only to find... man parts. Ugh. I'm trying to figure out how to disentangle myself from this guy in a way that my pals won't notice when they all bust out laughing. They'd known it all along. I was totally fooled. This girl, guy, thing, whatever, was by all appearances a totally beautiful girl who gave me no clue at all as I was dancing and kissing on a man. Do you realize how deep you dig the more you post in this thread? Do I qualify for the gay cachers group yet? I would saay Gay friendly for sure....lol.....not quite "family" yet Edited July 8, 2011 by Stealth Bobber Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Because there is a big difference between the two? But thanks for posting that. You just illustrated perfectly why a separate group is justified, as well as everyone else who is downplaying it as silly. It's difficult for them to blend in with other cachers when there are attitudes out there like that. Or perhaps you are jealous? I cant tell. Edited July 7, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) In all seriousness, if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move. We have at least one gay male and a lesbian couple in my immediate circle of GeoPals. He's brought his current paramour-de-jour caching and to numerous events where they are always just part of our crowd. The girls appear totally comfortable and no one, to my knowledge, gives a dam that they're a couple. I don't think the topic of them being gay has ever come up, certainly not in public, and they are members of our group who are liked and respected by all. If something is going on in your life that makes you uncomfortable, change it. I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in Birmingham it's not an issue unless you choose to make an issue of it. Come on down! Edited July 7, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler Link to comment
+d+n.s Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 In all seriousness, if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move. We have at least one gay male and a lesbian couple in my immediate circle of GeoPals. He's brought his current paramour-de-jour caching and to numerous events where they are always just part of our crowd. The girls appear totally comfortable and no one, to my knowledge, gives a dam that they're a couple. I don't think the topic of them being gay has ever come up, certainly not in public, and they are members of our group who are liked and respected by all. If something is going on in your life that makes you uncomfortable, change it. I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in Birmingham it's not an issue unless you choose to make an issue of it. Come on down! You know, on the surface some are going to find that advice a little coarse and unrealistic. However one of my favorite relationship/sex columnists Dan Savage (the "it gets better" guy)is a homosexual and he says the exact same thing. If you live in an area where gay people are treated poorly or rare you need to move. He says that you owe yourself happiness and shouldn't settle for what is immediately available. You shouldn't make yourself a paraiah to make some grand point and needlessly suffer in the name of social change. It's interesting to see that same advice pop-up here. The first time I heard it, it seemed a little off to me, but being striaght I take things for granted. I grew up in a really small really intolerant city in Missouri. Seeing the difference between that and a place like Austin is pretty eye opening. I guess I'm a little off topic by this point, but I just wanted to say that Alabama Rambler makes a good point. I think people of like backgrounds and interests should naturally feel comfortable seeking each other out sometimes, but if it's that hard to find a place where you feel safe around others... selling everything you own and living in a studio apartment in a better place might be a better long term solution. YMMV Link to comment
+A & J Tooling Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 So now we know at least that someone here has kissed a man and he was Navy. Nothing unusual there. As others have said, if you are in an area where people hate you for who you are, move. There. Problem solved. Need a group to join? How about we invent a 'I don't give a crap about anyone's orientation or occupation or race, creed, color, faith, Nationality or anything else group? You like to cache? So do I. That's all I care about. Link to comment
mresoteric Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Some folks will fool a fella. We'd been out on the gun range with our carrier battle group. When my destroyer docked in San Diego me and some of the sailors from my division hit the bars. I latched on to this one good looking gal and started buying her drinks. We danced and as the night progressed so did the bar-room romance, until we were making out pretty good. I finally got my hand up her skirt, reaching for heaven, only to find... man parts. Ugh. I'm trying to figure out how to disentangle myself from this guy in a way that my pals won't notice when they all bust out laughing. They'd known it all along. I was totally fooled. This girl, guy, thing, whatever, was by all appearances a totally beautiful girl who gave me no clue at all as I was dancing and kissing on a man. I would saay Gay friendly for sure....lol.....not quite "family" yet Do you realize how deep you dig the more you post in this thread? Do I qualify for the gay cachers group yet? I did not say the part in red. Please edit your post. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Some folks will fool a fella. We'd been out on the gun range with our carrier battle group. When my destroyer docked in San Diego me and some of the sailors from my division hit the bars. I latched on to this one good looking gal and started buying her drinks. We danced and as the night progressed so did the bar-room romance, until we were making out pretty good. I finally got my hand up her skirt, reaching for heaven, only to find... man parts. Ugh. I'm trying to figure out how to disentangle myself from this guy in a way that my pals won't notice when they all bust out laughing. They'd known it all along. I was totally fooled. This girl, guy, thing, whatever, was by all appearances a totally beautiful girl who gave me no clue at all as I was dancing and kissing on a man. I would saay Gay friendly for sure....lol.....not quite "family" yet Do you realize how deep you dig the more you post in this thread? Do I qualify for the gay cachers group yet? I did not say the part in red. Please edit your post. You didnt say any of it. Perhaps you need to log out, and then back in again with the correct username. Edited July 7, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) In all seriousness, if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move. We have at least one gay male and a lesbian couple in my immediate circle of GeoPals. He's brought his current paramour-de-jour caching and to numerous events where they are always just part of our crowd. The girls appear totally comfortable and no one, to my knowledge, gives a dam that they're a couple. I don't think the topic of them being gay has ever come up, certainly not in public, and they are members of our group who are liked and respected by all. If something is going on in your life that makes you uncomfortable, change it. I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in Birmingham it's not an issue unless you choose to make an issue of it. Come on down! You know, on the surface some are going to find that advice a little coarse and unrealistic. However one of my favorite relationship/sex columnists Dan Savage (the "it gets better" guy)is a homosexual and he says the exact same thing. If you live in an area where gay people are treated poorly or rare you need to move. He says that you owe yourself happiness and shouldn't settle for what is immediately available. You shouldn't make yourself a paraiah to make some grand point and needlessly suffer in the name of social change. It's interesting to see that same advice pop-up here. The first time I heard it, it seemed a little off to me, but being striaght I take things for granted. I grew up in a really small really intolerant city in Missouri. Seeing the difference between that and a place like Austin is pretty eye opening. I guess I'm a little off topic by this point, but I just wanted to say that Alabama Rambler makes a good point. I think people of like backgrounds and interests should naturally feel comfortable seeking each other out sometimes, but if it's that hard to find a place where you feel safe around others... selling everything you own and living in a studio apartment in a better place might be a better long term solution. YMMV Running away doesnt solve anything. Since it affects 10% of the population universally, that really just makes the hate stronger in some areas when a few people leave, and the others have to hide what they are doing. Instead of the wall coming down, it only gets larger. When we grew up and went to school there were certain people who would hurt others that were different any way they could. By pouring their derision upon anything they did and exposing every weakness however carefully hidden by the kids. But in the town it was well known when they got home at night, their fat and psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives.. Edited July 7, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
+Sithlock Holmes Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 This thread is absolutely fascinating for anyone (like myself) who is interested in LGBT matters and how far (or how not far) our world has come into accepting these individuals. Very, very interesting. My only comment for the OP echoes what the others have said. I've never heard of a gay Geocaching group, but that doesn't mean you can't start one! I agree. This thread is a very interesting social study. Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Running away doesnt solve anything. Since it affects 10% of the population universally, that really just makes the hate stronger in some areas when a few people leave, and the others have to hide what they are doing. Cool. So stand and fight. Somebody has to. Just don't gripe about how miserable your lot in life is if that's your choice. Me, I'd move, or at least associate with people who weren't obvious in their dislike. Instead of the wall coming down, it only gets larger. When we grew up and went to school there were certain people who would hurt others that were different any way they could. By pouring their derision upon anything they did and exposing every weakness however carefully hidden by the kids. But in the town it was well known when they got home at night, their fat and psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives.. Which one's Pink? Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Running away doesnt solve anything. Since it affects 10% of the population universally, that really just makes the hate stronger in some areas when a few people leave, and the others have to hide what they are doing. Cool. So stand and fight. Somebody has to. Just don't gripe about how miserable your lot in life is if that's your choice. Me, I'd move, or at least associate with people who weren't obvious in their dislike. They shouldnt have to fight to simply go out in public. If they purposely try to rub it into peoples faces thats a little different. However, they could move to any area and still have problems. So they move, and the agressors get rewarded for their behavior and it escalates. Since that tatic worked the first time, then of course they repeat it and it encourages them to do it again. Then the next couple that find themselves in that area, gets it worse. I knew several that were targets of physical violence, and had their house burned down. One reason why they seek out others like themselves is to help others when they have problems like that. But you guys say that it's silly. I didn't know that segregation was still being promoted. Instead of trying to help them, you tell them that it's their problem, and they should leave? What about the haters? They get to stay? Edited July 7, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
+d+n.s Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) In all seriousness, if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move. We have at least one gay male and a lesbian couple in my immediate circle of GeoPals. He's brought his current paramour-de-jour caching and to numerous events where they are always just part of our crowd. The girls appear totally comfortable and no one, to my knowledge, gives a dam that they're a couple. I don't think the topic of them being gay has ever come up, certainly not in public, and they are members of our group who are liked and respected by all. If something is going on in your life that makes you uncomfortable, change it. I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in Birmingham it's not an issue unless you choose to make an issue of it. Come on down! You know, on the surface some are going to find that advice a little coarse and unrealistic. However one of my favorite relationship/sex columnists Dan Savage (the "it gets better" guy)is a homosexual and he says the exact same thing. If you live in an area where gay people are treated poorly or rare you need to move. He says that you owe yourself happiness and shouldn't settle for what is immediately available. You shouldn't make yourself a paraiah to make some grand point and needlessly suffer in the name of social change. It's interesting to see that same advice pop-up here. The first time I heard it, it seemed a little off to me, but being striaght I take things for granted. I grew up in a really small really intolerant city in Missouri. Seeing the difference between that and a place like Austin is pretty eye opening. I guess I'm a little off topic by this point, but I just wanted to say that Alabama Rambler makes a good point. I think people of like backgrounds and interests should naturally feel comfortable seeking each other out sometimes, but if it's that hard to find a place where you feel safe around others... selling everything you own and living in a studio apartment in a better place might be a better long term solution. YMMV Running away doesnt solve anything. Since it affects 10% of the population universally, that really just makes the hate stronger in some areas when a few people leave, and the others have to hide what they are doing. Instead of the wall coming down, it only gets larger. When we grew up and went to school there were certain people who would hurt others that were different any way they could. By pouring their derision upon anything they did and exposing every weakness however carefully hidden by the kids. But in the town it was well known when they got home at night, their fat and psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives.. This might all be true, but a person needn't make it their job to suffer in vain. One kid in a little nowhere town realistically won't make a difference and they deserve to find someone that they love and meet like minded people as much as people lucky enough to be born somewhere else. I knew one openly gay kid in the little town I grew up in, and honeslty looking back, his life seems like it was pretty lonely and hostile. I'm sure he moved to Kansas City or at least somewhere with a gay bar, but if he asked me whether he should have move or not... I would feel pretty uncomfortable telling him he should have stayed and fought the good fight. I mean, I left because I hated it. Most kids do that or get into meth. I wouldn't tell someone to stay somewhere they aren't happy to prove a point. I'd encourage them to save up and move. Again, I disagreed with the sentiment on a gut level the first time I heard it, but it makes sense to me now. However, it's really so far outside of my realm of experience my opinion on the matter is pretty empty and meaningless. That said, it only tangentally relates to the OP, so I feel pretty comfortable dropping it and sagreeing to disagree. Especially considering I agree with everything else you've said Edited July 7, 2011 by d+n.s Link to comment
+geodarts Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 This thread is absolutely fascinating for anyone (like myself) who is interested in LGBT matters and how far (or how not far) our world has come into accepting these individuals. Very, very interesting. My only comment for the OP echoes what the others have said. I've never heard of a gay Geocaching group, but that doesn't mean you can't start one! I agree. This thread is a very interesting social study. When this thread started, I thought it would be quick and easy: we do not know of any formal gay caching groups but organize your own, go to events and see who you meet, or find out if there is a local caching group where a group hike could be proposed. That it has gone on so long, and raised the type of issues it has, indicates how deep the issue continues to run and the layers of meaning and experience it continues to have, even among ourselves. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 But this thread isn't about problems. It was only about a gay person reaching out to find others. Somehow it was derided as silly, and for them to keep quiet about it. Now they are being told to move if theres problems, and all they wanted was to find others like themselves. Link to comment
+d+n.s Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) But this thread isn't about problems. It was only about a gay person reaching out to find others. Somehow it was derided as silly, and for them to keep quiet about it. Now they are being told to move if theres problems, and all they wanted was to find others like themselves. I think you are taking that in the worst possible way or being purposefully reductive. You shouldn't assume the worst of people. Like I said, fairly important gay rights activists advocate moving to cities with gay communities. The thread is about trying to find a gay community of sorts. There is nothing mean or "eyeroll" worthy of advising a gay person to move to an area with like minded people. If I lived in a city with only 3 women, you'd expect me to stay and be misrable to prove some emopty point? To try to change an entire city as a minority while simultaneously being lonely? Trying to frame people who say, "if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move." as being dismissive is unfair. Its actually sound advice. People move for love, jobs and culture all the time. Its the exact same impulse that drives people to make threads like this. finding like minded people is a good thing. People shouldn't necessarily be encouraged to stay in a threatening environment. I can understand the motivation to do so, but it hardly makes someone callous or whatever if they say, "Hey man, just get out of there!" Edited July 7, 2011 by d+n.s Link to comment
+OregonCacher Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 That's really all I have to say on this topic. I can't make people understand what it's like to live this life or feel the way I feel. Or have to be faced with the threats and violence I have been faced with just because of who I love. I can't ever make people understand but I wish I could. you also have to understand how many of the straight people feel. I may have homosexual friends and not even know it, but if I do they apparently don't throw it in my face. Personally the thought of having sex with another man turns my stomach. In my opinion what gives the homosexual community a bum rap with the straight people is the groups like act out or whatever they call themselves. There was an incident in Madison, WI where a bunch of lesbians went into a mans restaurant and started making out. He didn't ask them to leave he just ask them to quit doing what they were doing because other customers were getting up and leaving. They left and came back the next day and started picketing him until he ended up making a public apology. I think sexual preference or anything else sexual should be kept private. If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Not sure I could have stated that much more clearly (bold). I personally, for religious reasons and otherwise, do not approve of gay marriage (stick with me). I have a right to believe that, equally as people who are gay have the right to want it. However as said above, what really scares much of today's society (me included) away from gay relationships is how some of the gay community acts out in public to gain "notoriety" and what they think is "legitimacy". If all non-heterosexual couples acted in a manner as to not make others around them feel uncomfortable, the issue would be much less prevalent in our society today in my opinion. People have to realize that non-heterosexual relationships being seen as legitimate in society as heterosexual one's is a fairly new concept. While gay/lesbian/etc couples want to feel as equal in society as straight couples, our society is not there yet. In our society, a gay couple holding hands will take awhile to become "normalized". While the gay community is reaching out for equal rights, forcing the issue, and countering a "social norm" that our society was built upon for hundreds of years isn't a change that will take place over night. By parading and patronizing (referring to the story told in quote) members of our society who rightfully are not yet comfortable with such an activity is not a way to win this legitimacy; once the gay community realizes this, it will make lives for people who are gay much better in the long run. Our country was built and founded upon religion as well. I consider myself a very conservative Republican, but still do not care that people are gay. Gay marriage is an entirely different issue in which the gay community may never like the outcome of, but this, like other progressive things in our society take time to "find their place" culturally speaking. I am trying my best to not generalize every gay person in the above statement, because like most things, its usually a section, not the whole, that causes the issue. I feel this conversation, while off-topic, is a "constructive" one, and for the most part is respectful to both parties; thus I feel this isn't a bad conversation to be had. It is readily apparent that I am pretty far to one side (right obviously) on this issue, while others directly oppose me on the other end; this makes for a healthy discussion as it breads positive relationships and cohesion amongst this community. This post is slightly off topic of our "off topic" conversation in regards to a "gay geocaching group", but I felt like it was important this this was said. Link to comment
+Chokecherry Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 That's really all I have to say on this topic. I can't make people understand what it's like to live this life or feel the way I feel. Or have to be faced with the threats and violence I have been faced with just because of who I love. I can't ever make people understand but I wish I could. you also have to understand how many of the straight people feel. I may have homosexual friends and not even know it, but if I do they apparently don't throw it in my face. Personally the thought of having sex with another man turns my stomach. In my opinion what gives the homosexual community a bum rap with the straight people is the groups like act out or whatever they call themselves. There was an incident in Madison, WI where a bunch of lesbians went into a mans restaurant and started making out. He didn't ask them to leave he just ask them to quit doing what they were doing because other customers were getting up and leaving. They left and came back the next day and started picketing him until he ended up making a public apology. I think sexual preference or anything else sexual should be kept private. If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Not sure I could have stated that much more clearly (bold). I personally, for religious reasons and otherwise, do not approve of gay marriage (stick with me). I have a right to believe that, equally as people who are gay have the right to want it. However as said above, what really scares much of today's society (me included) away from gay relationships is how some of the gay community acts out in public to gain "notoriety" and what they think is "legitimacy". If all non-heterosexual couples acted in a manner as to not make others around them feel uncomfortable, the issue would be much less prevalent in our society today in my opinion. People have to realize that non-heterosexual relationships being seen as legitimate in society as heterosexual one's is a fairly new concept. While gay/lesbian/etc couples want to feel as equal in society as straight couples, our society is not there yet. In our society, a gay couple holding hands will take awhile to become "normalized". While the gay community is reaching out for equal rights, forcing the issue, and countering a "social norm" that our society was built upon for hundreds of years isn't a change that will take place over night. By parading and patronizing (referring to the story told in quote) members of our society who rightfully are not yet comfortable with such an activity is not a way to win this legitimacy; once the gay community realizes this, it will make lives for people who are gay much better in the long run. Our country was built and founded upon religion as well. I consider myself a very conservative Republican, but still do not care that people are gay. Gay marriage is an entirely different issue in which the gay community may never like the outcome of, but this, like other progressive things in our society take time to "find their place" culturally speaking. I am trying my best to not generalize every gay person in the above statement, because like most things, its usually a section, not the whole, that causes the issue. I feel this conversation, while off-topic, is a "constructive" one, and for the most part is respectful to both parties; thus I feel this isn't a bad conversation to be had. It is readily apparent that I am pretty far to one side (right obviously) on this issue, while others directly oppose me on the other end; this makes for a healthy discussion as it breads positive relationships and cohesion amongst this community. This post is slightly off topic of our "off topic" conversation in regards to a "gay geocaching group", but I felt like it was important this this was said. As a member of the LGBT community I think you're taking this discussion in a very productive direction with comments like these. I can understand as a straight person who has some moral issues with the idea of gay marriage where this whole things seems bizarre to you and does make you uncomfortable. And I understand that you have probably been exposed in media and in your personal life to the stereotype which probably didn't help matters any. And you probably haven't been exposed to many of us "normal" gay people knowingly either. There's a lot sub-cultures that I don't agree with for various moral and ethical reasons. And excluding a tiny number of sub-cultures I try to see the people in them as people and not as the sub-culture. For example, I'm bi and I'm not religious but I have a bunch of friends who are priests and nuns. It's not my thing. Never will be my thing but they respect me as human being and I respect them as a human being. If they pray before meals that I'm that's fine with me I respect that. I respect when they have special religious things they need to do. If I'm around them with a girlfriend they don't say boo about it because we like each other as people. I also have a myriad of very socially conservative friends and it's the same thing. These folks also respect the struggles I've had in life and don't diminish them. And I respect struggles they've had in life. The nuns and priests have had struggles I can't imagine because it's so far outside my realm of experience. But I wouldn't ever say to them well choose something different if this is so hard. Or move to a monastery so you can be in a group of you. And honestly sometimes the people most different than me and me do sit down and really talk about the gay thing or something in their life that makes me uncomfortable and we just have an open and honest talk about it. People have questions about everything. It's just better to ask them in a comfortable environment. And I'm sorry that your main experiences seem to be with the extreme. But just like I wouldn't look at you because your conservative and lump you wrongfully in "those" people I'm asking you take us on a case by case basis. Yeah the hand holding and the stuff will take time to get used to. But some of us have very normal public displays of affection. If I'm with a man or woman I have very normal behavior in public with them but that's just my personality in a relationship. I wish you could come see me and my gay friends in our normal every day lives honestly. You'd probably feel better about things in general. But I'm sure you can understand that sometimes I need to be around people like me sometimes so I don't feel like I'm walking into a group that is seething at my very existance all the time (hence why I don't mind the idea of a gay geocaching group). Just like the nuns and priests i know need to be around other nuns and priests sometimes to share their common life experiences doing a variety of hobbies. And I'm sure you want to be around people like you sometimes too doing whatever hobbies you do. It's just a comfortable and it's safe. You know? Link to comment
+_Wolverine Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) I applaud your comments Chokeberry! Heck, there is a geocaching group just for dogs.. yes..the dogs have formed their own group --> http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/geocaching-dogs-unite-2/ There's a masonic geocaching group as 4wheeling fool points out.. Yes, people.. There are indeed different geocaching groups for people with different ideology, hobbies, etc. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO JOIN THEM if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you!!!! Everyone geocaches because they love the game.. some prefer to go alone, or in groups, or in an environment they are comfortable with. Nobody is throwing anything in anyone's face. It's 2011 people.. really - why did this topic go into the depths of hatred in this day and age? Couldn't have people been more positive and geared the OP into information where she may or may not have found the answer they were looking for? But instead.... yes.. it went that way when it didn't have to. I applaud any groups that want to get into geocaching - we're supposed to be introducing geocaching to as many people as possible.. whether they be gay, straight, christian, masonic, black, white, etc. WHO CARES? I guess some do.. sigh.. where is the ignore when we need it? Edited July 7, 2011 by _Wolverine Link to comment
+_Wolverine Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 But on a side note, if you know of any in Colorado.. let me know! Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) ...It's 2011 people.. really - why did this topic go into the depths of hatred in this day and age? Couldn't have people been more positive and geared the OP into information where she may or may not have found the answer they were looking for?... Depths of hatred? Really? Where? Some of us used humor to make our point, some wrote passionately about their feelings, but no one has expressed disdain, much less hatred, for anyone. The OP got very supportive advice: We don't know of such a group, so start one! Frankly I think it's one of the tamest and most helpful conversations on the topic that I have ever read! Those of us who play in the OT forum have known that ChokeCherry was out for quite a long time. We embrace her online just as we would in person. The same would be true for everyone who revealed themselves in this thread. I think maybe you were expecting hate, so that's what you read into our posts. It's simply not there. Edited July 8, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler Link to comment
+Destitute Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) NVM Edited July 8, 2011 by Destitute Link to comment
+Starwolf013 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 ...It's 2011 people.. really - why did this topic go into the depths of hatred in this day and age? Couldn't have people been more positive and geared the OP into information where she may or may not have found the answer they were looking for?... Depths of hatred? Really? Where? Some of us used humor to make our point, some wrote passionately about their feelings, but no one has expressed disdain, much less hatred, for anyone. The OP got very supportive advice: We don't know of such a group, so start one! Frankly I think it's one of the tamest and most helpful conversations on the topic that I have ever read! Those of us who play in the OT forum have known that ChokeCherry was out for quite a long time. We embrace her online just as we would in person. The same would be true for everyone who revealed themselves in this thread. I think maybe you were expecting hate, so that's what you read into our posts. It's simply not there. The problem with that line of thinking, though, is that people that are new to the forum may not understand or realize that the forum regulars are "just playing". If I was a homosexual new geocacher that happened accross this thread looking for a quality answer, I would be disheartened by the intolerant joke responses that I had to sift through to find the answers to the question. I fully support the idea of a gay/lesbian geocaching group, and I hope that ChokeCherry or someone else in the area is inspired to create one. Having a best friend that is homosexual, I have heard about negative social reactions to his lifestyle and have witnessed some of the injustices first hand. While I was offended, I could not imagine his inward reaction to such treatment. Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 The problem with that line of thinking, though, is that people that are new to the forum may not understand or realize that the forum regulars are "just playing". If I was a homosexual new geocacher that happened accross this thread looking for a quality answer, I would be disheartened by the intolerant joke responses that I had to sift through to find the answers to the question. Intolerant? Where? I think responders have been falling all over themselves trying to be politically correct so far! If there's any intolerance voiced in this thread I haven't seen it. Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I'm not sure if "intolerant" is the right word, but I've seen several themes in this discussion which seem to reflect at least some lack of understanding what it means to be in a minority group - especially one which is not always fully accepted by everyone in society. These "themes" are: 1. That a minority group is no different than a majority group: The comment has been made "why not a straight geocaching group" - and that asking for a gay group is bigoted (post 64 for example). There is a difference between a minority and a majority group. For example, I am an Engineer (male) by profession. There is a Society of Women Engineers, which I fully support. Women are under-represented in this profession. A Society of Male Engineers would not be the same. Another example, the NAACP is a respected civil rights organisation; the NAAWP or KKK is not (in my view). So I do think it would be offensive if I tried to start a straight geocaching group. But I have no issue with someone wanting to start a gay geocaching group. 2. If a gay group, then why not bacon lovers group? This is where lots of the "jokes" come in. These comments, to me, belittle the need for people of a minority group with a strong common culture to come together. There is a difference between creating a group based on a strong culture or important shared interest, then one on something arbitrary. (If loving bacon is seriously an important part of someone's identity such that they are more comfortable with others who like bacon, then I apologise - but that wasn't the only such example). 3. That someone's sexual preference (if they are gay) should not be seen in a geocaching context. Chokecherry provided some excellent responses here. I went to an event recently with my wife and daughter; it was clear I was married to a woman. Why is that any different than a gay person arriving with a partner (or if legal where they live, a same sex spouse)? It is mostly variations of these 3 themes which I see as fuelling this long discussion. If there was agreement that: 1. Being in any minority is different from being in the majority; and often forming a minority group provides support. 2. For many gay people - who are a minority - their being gay is a big part of who they are, and they share a form of common culture with other gays. 3. Gay people have the right to provide information about their important relationships ("I'd like you to meet my partner") as straight people do ("I would like you to meet my wife". Then I think this thread would have been very short. Link to comment
+DonB Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Because there is a big difference between the two? But thanks for posting that. You just illustrated perfectly why a separate group is justified, as well as everyone else who is downplaying it as silly. It's difficult for them to blend in with other cachers when there are attitudes out there like that. Or perhaps you are jealous? I cant tell. Why is it different? Both cases would be considered abnormal by most people. In my post I never said I was against the homosexuals having their own group, more power to them. You can carry on any type of abnormal sexual activities that you like, I just don't like it when groups like this act out bunch cram it down peoples throats. If you can't tell I'll make it clear to you, it's certainly nothing to be jealous about. Link to comment
+GeoGeeBee Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 So if a gay man kisses his boyfriend (I'm talking about a quick "hello" peck, not making out) then he's "cramming it down your throat, but it's ok for a man to kiss his wife the same way? I think a gay couple should be held to exactly the same standard of behavior in public as a straight couple. But I do get where you're coming from. I have walked several times in our local Gay Pride parade, to show support for some of my friends. And I've found myself wishing that more of the "normal looking" gay people that I know would take part in the parade. I guess it's not surprising that a parade attracts exhibitionists, but I think they go too far. The general public, after seeing our local Gay Pride parade, is likely to think that all gay people are drag queens or leather freaks. The gay people that I know are just normal people leading normal lives. Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) ...The gay people that I know are just normal people leading normal lives. You were doing good 'till you got to that point. Their being NOT normal is the whole issue here, for both sides. Edited July 8, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) If I had my wife or girlfriend dress up like a 12 year old girl so I could get turned on I sure wouldn't run around advertising it to the rest of the world, so why should you run around telling everyone you are a homosexual? Because there is a big difference between the two? But thanks for posting that. You just illustrated perfectly why a separate group is justified, as well as everyone else who is downplaying it as silly. It's difficult for them to blend in with other cachers when there are attitudes out there like that. Or perhaps you are jealous? I cant tell. Why is it different? Both cases would be considered abnormal by most people. In my post I never said I was against the homosexuals having their own group, more power to them. You can carry on any type of abnormal sexual activities that you like, I just don't like it when groups like this act out bunch cram it down peoples throats. If you can't tell I'll make it clear to you, it's certainly nothing to be jealous about. You are comparing someone who fantasizes about being a sexual predator, to someone else who is in a same sex relationship. A person who fantasizes about preying on young children is a great danger to society. Their perversion is not relationship based, or lifestyle based, but only revolves around an psychopathic, egotistical desire to satify themself. Psychopathic people have absolutely no feelings towards others. This also frequently occurs with someone who is mentally disturbed about their own percieved shortcomings, and may act out in other non sexual ways to compensate for that. In many cases they believe that their behaviour is more normal to society because they are targeting the opposite sex. Such as someone who has many young wives under the age of 15, but then announces that gay people are evil. Edited July 8, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 ...The gay people that I know are just normal people leading normal lives. You were doing good 'till you got to that point. Their being NOT normal is the whole issue here, for both sides. Thats not the issue at all. Many people consider them normal in many ways other than sexual. Then there are those people who have a huge reaction when they see them doing something simple as holding hands. That is not normal. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 But this thread isn't about problems. It was only about a gay person reaching out to find others. Somehow it was derided as silly, and for them to keep quiet about it. Now they are being told to move if theres problems, and all they wanted was to find others like themselves. I think you are taking that in the worst possible way or being purposefully reductive. You shouldn't assume the worst of people. Like I said, fairly important gay rights activists advocate moving to cities with gay communities. The thread is about trying to find a gay community of sorts. There is nothing mean or "eyeroll" worthy of advising a gay person to move to an area with like minded people. If I lived in a city with only 3 women, you'd expect me to stay and be misrable to prove some emopty point? To try to change an entire city as a minority while simultaneously being lonely? Trying to frame people who say, "if you feel that uncomfortable in your environment, move." as being dismissive is unfair. Its actually sound advice. People move for love, jobs and culture all the time. Its the exact same impulse that drives people to make threads like this. finding like minded people is a good thing. People shouldn't necessarily be encouraged to stay in a threatening environment. I can understand the motivation to do so, but it hardly makes someone callous or whatever if they say, "Hey man, just get out of there!" It's something that affects every level of society and every culture. To expect them to move if they have issues does not solve the problem, especially with others that are living in fear. This country was founded as a haven by people who were escaping their own persecutions. There were many who told them it was a bad idea because the natives weren't that friendly. Suppose they should have gone back home? Later it was the natives who were being persecuted, but however they did take the advice to move to another place in the Midwest, which was an awfully long walk. How did that work out for them? The tendency for anyone who is being persecuted, is to reach out and find others like themself for help. However , they should not just expect their own to help them, everyone should. Perhaps many people only help their own, and look the other way if another culture is in trouble? When that occurs then the country has turned into the very evil it was trying to escape. If you don't stand up for the freedoms of others, then eventually you will lose your own. If that malarky was occurring in my town to any group, I would try to help them, rather than telling them the best idea would be to go. Link to comment
+A & J Tooling Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Well, I used to live in Flint, Michigan, north side. Forresthill to be exact. Highest murder per capita right now I think. We left because we were different then everyone else there and were told in no uncertain tone, our kind were not wanted around there. This is America! My grandparents weren't born here and came from Europe to get away from this crap! This city was a model for future cities of diversity back in the 50's and 60's. We did the smart thing (in my opinion) and moved. The kid that took over my older brother's paper route was killed for his money 8 days after we left. Why were we different? Skin color. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) Freedom is not something that is granted and lasts forever. It something that needs to be respected and defended continuously, despite who it's for. Many people celebrate freedom on July 4th by shooting off Chinese fireworks and flying foreign manufactured American flags. However, that's only the general date that we declared independence. There wasnt any freedom on that date, only many years later after we fought for it. Even so, not everyone was free until the Emancipation Proclamation Act many years after that. However it is often overshadowed by new year celebrations, and is largely forgotten. Edited July 8, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
+CanadianRockies Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Even so, not everyone was free until the Emancipation Proclamation Act many years after that. Even that depends on what freedoms you're talking about. Most women in the United States weren't free to vote until 1920. And most 17 year olds still cannot. Link to comment
+GeoGeeBee Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 ...The gay people that I know are just normal people leading normal lives. You were doing good 'till you got to that point. Their being NOT normal is the whole issue here, for both sides. They are normal in every way, except for who they are physically attracted to. And since I'm married, and not available for anyone other than my spouse, who they are attracted to is of no interest to me. Link to comment
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