Regarding blank logs

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

The others are correct. No matter how much we dislike them, Groundspeak has taken the stance that a blank log is a log, and is not to be deleted. If you do, and the cacher complains to Groundspeak, the blank log will be reinstated. Sorry.

 

Hmmmm, so if lots of hiders delete blank logs, Groundspeak will be flooded with requests to reinstate. Sounds like good 'ol civil disobedience. I don't have a strong opinion either way on blank logs, but do have an opinion on sitting back and waiting for change.

[+Doctroid]

But couldn't "logging a find" simply be the act of marking it Found on the website? I think so.

 

If you read the actual text of the guidelines, I don't think that interpretation is sustainable. What they explicitly say is that if you sign the log, that gives you the right to log the find online.

[mresoteric]

ꝏ

[+tozainamboku]

But couldn't "logging a find" simply be the act of marking it Found on the website? I think so.

 

If you read the actual text of the guidelines, I don't think that interpretation is sustainable. What they explicitly say is that if you sign the log, that gives you the right to log the find online.

If you read the actual text of the guidelines, it says that physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. It says nothing about what you need to say in the online log. It also doesn't say that you can log a find only if you signed the physical log. Cache owners can accept online logs whether or not you signed the online log, but they cannot start having additional requirements for logging a find online.

 

One interpretation is that they cannot require you to write anything in online log. By this interpretation they cannot delete an online log because it is blank.

 

Note that the guidelines also ask cache owners to delete online logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate.

Edited July 10, 2011 by tozainamboku

[+Klondike Mike]

I just roll my eyes and move on when finding a blank log. But that's ok, I own an Iphone with the caching app and I'll be sure to pay them back if/when they hide a cache.

[+sword fern]

Oh my. Another thread concerning blank logs. Hopefully this wont be the next argument thread.

 

Blank logs are Ok. Some cachers are to busy with their lives to tell about their adventure. Don't you understand?

 

That was what someone said somewhere... It stuck with me but i cant remember where i got it from.

[mresoteric]

I just roll my eyes and move on when finding a blank log. But that's ok, I own an Iphone with the caching app and I'll be sure to pay them back if/when they hide a cache.

 

I'm sure you are going to really hurt their feelings.

[+GrateBear]

Nope, doesn't bother me and on top of that, I don't even check the logs to see if they were actually signed, regardless of comment or no comment. The only log I've ever deleted was one that had a logging date before the date I hid it. I sent the finder two e-mail messages asking that they correct it, but never got a response. There is nothing about geocaching that causes me much angst, other than a cache I've looked for several times and still DNF

[4wheelin_fool]

But really what's the difference between a blank log and TFTC? Although TFTC is indicating thanks, many COs believe that it's a negative log anyhow. I really do not understand how the TFTC came about anyway. Typing "thanks" uses 6 keys, while "TFTC" is 5 if you use caps. On a phone it's 8 due to no caps lock, so it's really not saving any time.

[Mr.Yuck]

Oh my. Another thread concerning blank logs. Hopefully this wont be the next argument thread.

 

Blank logs are Ok. Some cachers are to busy with their lives to tell about their adventure. Don't you understand?

 

That was what someone said somewhere... It stuck with me but i cant remember where i got it from.

 

Geocaching had established Folkways and Mores for 10 years before blank logs came along. Posting blank logs to the Geocaching website is like charging into it like a bull into a china shop, and a totally clueless bull at that. Don't you understand?

[knowschad]

One solution is to archive all your caches in protest. That will teach them.

 

Yes of course. That is an option. (I'm surprised it took so long for someone to come up with that.)

 

I think that attempting to educate is a much better solution.

[knowschad]

Yes, I'd never delete a blank log. And we can't.

Well, actually, you can. But you wouldn't be able to make it stick if they complained, and after enough complaints, you would be hearing from Groundspeak. But you can deleted them.

[+sword fern]

Yes, I'd never delete a blank log. And we can't.

Well, actually, you can. But you wouldn't be able to make it stick if they complained, and after enough complaints, you would be hearing from Groundspeak. But you can deleted them.

Say you deleted them by accident.

[knowschad]

Whether or not a blank log might be off-topic or inappropriate has not been decided, though I suspect that Groundspeak would prefer that cache owners not delete these logs.

It is in Groundspeak's best interest to not let older players do things that would upset newcomers to the game. I can understand that, but I sure would love to see Groundspeak go to greater lengths to educate those newcomers about logging etiquette. One way to do that would be to pop up a messagebox with an "Are you sure" sort of message when they attempt to submit a blank log. That way, they could always say, "yes, I don't care about giving any feedback on this cache", but at least they would be made aware that it is not the normal action.

[knowschad]

It's all a matter of preference. How we play this game is up to us, the individual. It's not up to others to tell one person or a large group of people how they should be playing.

Uh, who hid those caches for you to get your smiley's with? They should have no opinion on how you play the game with their caches?

[jonnyblond]

i just started geocaching and i'm guilty of not signing a log here and there as many other people have too(i do sign the logs nowadays since most people whine and go on foolish from what i seen). but your elitist attitude is what may or may not kill geocaching just like many other casual activities that have come and gone because of this mentality. there is no professional league of geocaching so till then let people enjoy the activity it is.

 

its just whiny and just plain childish to say play by my rules. something tells me that you were the type of kid that had to have it their way or nothing at all.

 

as long as i open a cache and leave something and hide it again then so what. me and a friend play geocaching in a different way but it doesn't effect the cache nor does it change anything for the next geocacher. but all and all in the end. it's all about the find and the area it takes me where i know i would have never visited ever.

 

geocaching has got my friends off the couch to venture into the woods instead of firing up the xbox360 and getting all fat and ugly. the real success of geocaching is connecting with friends and doing something together plus getting exercise. but the hardcores and that log book....come on.

Edited July 11, 2011 by jonnyblond

[+d+n.s]

Whether or not a blank log might be off-topic or inappropriate has not been decided, though I suspect that Groundspeak would prefer that cache owners not delete these logs.

It is in Groundspeak's best interest to not let older players do things that would upset newcomers to the game. I can understand that, but I sure would love to see Groundspeak go to greater lengths to educate those newcomers about logging etiquette. One way to do that would be to pop up a messagebox with an "Are you sure" sort of message when they attempt to submit a blank log. That way, they could always say, "yes, I don't care about giving any feedback on this cache", but at least they would be made aware that it is not the normal action.

Has such a dialogue box been asked for in the feedback forum? I'd vote for it. It seems like they should do the same for attributes.

 

 

as long as i open a cache and leave something and hide it again then so what. me and a friend play geocaching in a different way but it doesn't effect the cache nor does it change anything for the next geocacher. but all and all in the end. it's all about the find and the area it takes me where i know i would have never visited ever.

You make a fair point here that I think most of us basically accept. However, the people in these forums are mostly a bit more INTO geocaching than many cachers. Thats why they post here instead of doing their jobs. They love the game.

I think a positive result of this is that they tend to hide pretty cool caches. Look around these forums and compare the ones that people who've been here for ages own to the caches you typically find.

I think you'll notice that the people in these forums, for all their whining, hide caches that are really fun and took a bit of work.

 

Next, remind yourself that your logs get sent to the e-mail of the CO. In essence you are e-mailing the CO a message when you log a find online.

 

So basically, these people put a lot of work into their cache to give back to the game they love. Most of the logs (read:e-mails) they get from cachers AT LEAST say Thank You for the Cache in acronym form

So suddenly, an e-mail hits their inbox and they are pretty excited, because they are a nerd who loves to set-up fun experiences for others... and the finder literally has nothing to say. Its blank. They just found it.

 

Does this necessarily excuse the "whining" and hand wringing over something so small? Maybe (probably?) not, but perhaps it will help you empathize and understand that the same reason they take it personal when someone doesn't log their find "politely" is the same reason some people make awesome hides. Passion and excitement for geocaching.

 

It would be one thing if some guy out there with a really lame cache was complaining, but these dudes are probably hiding the ones that you and your friends make sure to mention in their logs. I think that sense of scope could maybe help understand where they might be upset...

 

I'm making generalizations here, but I think they helped me understand the angst. When I started placing caches, I began to treasure those logs and I started to write better ones.

Edited July 11, 2011 by d+n.s

[+L0ne.R]

as long as i open a cache and leave something and hide it again then so what. me and a friend play geocaching in a different way but it doesn't effect the cache nor does it change anything for the next geocacher. but all and all in the end. it's all about the find and the area it takes me where i know i would have never visited ever.

You make a fair point here that I think most of us basically accept. However, the people in these forums are mostly a bit more INTO geocaching than many cachers. Thats why they post here instead of doing their jobs. They love the game.

I think a positive result of this is that they tend to hide pretty cool caches. Look around these forums and compare the ones that people who've been here for ages own to the caches you typically find.

I think you'll notice that the people in these forums, for all their whining, hide caches that are really fun and took a bit of work.

 

Next, remind yourself that your logs get sent to the e-mail of the CO. In essence you are e-mailing the CO a message when you log a find online.

 

So basically, these people put a lot of work into their cache to give back to the game they love. Most of the logs (read:e-mails) they get from cachers AT LEAST say Thank You for the Cache in acronym form

So suddenly, an e-mail hits their inbox and they are pretty excited, because they are a nerd who loves to set-up fun experiences for others... and the finder literally has nothing to say. Its blank. They just found it.

 

Does this necessarily excuse the "whining" and hand wringing over something so small? Maybe (probably?) not, but perhaps it will help you empathize and understand that the same reason they take it personal when someone doesn't log their find "politely" is the same reason some people make awesome hides. Passion and excitement for geocaching.

 

It would be one thing if some guy out there with a really lame cache was complaining, but these dudes are probably hiding the ones that you and your friends make sure to mention in their logs. I think that sense of scope could maybe help understand where they might be upset...

 

I'm making generalizations here, but I think they helped me understand the angst. When I started placing caches, I began to treasure those logs and I started to write better ones.

 

Yes! Well said d+n.s.

[Mr.Yuck]

i just started geocaching and i'm guilty of not signing a log here and there as many other people have too(i do sign the logs nowadays since most people whine and go on foolish from what i seen). but your elitist attitude is what may or may not kill geocaching just like many other casual activities that have come and gone because of this mentality. there is no professional league of geocaching so till then let people enjoy the activity it is.

 

its just whiny and just plain childish to say play by my rules. something tells me that you were the type of kid that had to have it their way or nothing at all.

 

as long as i open a cache and leave something and hide it again then so what. me and a friend play geocaching in a different way but it doesn't effect the cache nor does it change anything for the next geocacher. but all and all in the end. it's all about the find and the area it takes me where i know i would have never visited ever.

 

geocaching has got my friends off the couch to venture into the woods instead of firing up the xbox360 and getting all fat and ugly. the real success of geocaching is connecting with friends and doing something together plus getting exercise. but the hardcores and that log book....come on.

 

Well, that sounds like more of a "tell them off, and not look at the thread again" post, but I'll post in the event you might see it.

 

Not being sarcastic, but this is a Regarding blank logs thread, and your whole post seems to be about not signing the logbook!! Two things, no. 1, I think you're overestimating the number of, and harcoreness of "The hardcores and that logbook", and no. 2 most people would agree that this website, and it's owners, by virtue of an oft-quoted statement in the cache guidelines, are "hardcores and that logbook".

[+NeverSummer]

Has anyone considered adding a WARNING to their owned caches that blank logs will be deleted? I'm not asking for opinions about blank logs. I don't care why it's blank, iPhone issue or otherwise, there's suppose to be something in that box!

Blank physical logbook? Sure, delete. That is the only way to prove someone was there.

 

Blank log? There is nowhere that says anyone has to log something more than a "found it" to get credit on geocaching.com for a find.

[+StarBrand]

Just for the record (again):

 

I am totally against allowing blank 'found' logs online - but I won't be deleting them either. I usually send a polite note asking them to go back and edit the blank log - so far all but 2 cachers have complied. Several of them thanked me for my note - stating they didn't realize that owners enjoying reading logs.

[mresoteric]

 

Blank physical logbook? Sure, delete. That is the only way to prove someone was there.

 

 

No it's not. It's the defacto evidence promoted by Groundspeak. But you can use a number of other methods to prove someone was there. Photos are one.

[+Ginirover]

I don't have that many hidden caches (yet) but as long as the finder really did find the cache it's fine with me. Didn't get a blank log yet but my first assumption would be that it's a newbe (easily to be checked and contacted to explain how it works). Apart from that I suppose that using their time to find my cache is great, getting a nice comment is even greater but I can live with silence

[+NeverSummer]

 

Blank physical logbook? Sure, delete. That is the only way to prove someone was there.

 

 

No it's not. It's the defacto evidence promoted by Groundspeak. But you can use a number of other methods to prove someone was there. Photos are one.

Sure, we can parse this out. But to log a cache, the site Groundspeak created to track geocache finds asks that you sign a physical log. But yes, we can log in many ways, and the validity of each find is determined by the cache owner's interpretation of the guidelines. What is ok with some is not ok with others.

 

Anyway, the topic is about blank logs online, not logbooks. There is no reason to delete a log just because it is blank.

[+Avernar]

Here's a Feedback thread on the subject Disallow Blank Logs

Note status: Declined.

 

Jeremy, "We now support blank logs instead of forcing the user to type things like "." and "TFTC" to post a log. We decided to do this since "I found it" is enough of an action for those who would prefer not to post a verbose log."

It's funny that the iPhone app does complain if you try to leave a blank comment for retrieving a trackable.

[+Klondike Mike]

I just roll my eyes and move on when finding a blank log. But that's ok, I own an Iphone with the caching app and I'll be sure to pay them back if/when they hide a cache.

 

I'm sure you are going to really hurt their feelings.

 

Whatever,

[+TL&MinBHIL]

Many of you who don't like blank logs use the defense that it's impolite. Since CO's took the time to hide a cache, the least a person can do is say something. Or that we should all write a log because CO's enjoy reading them. What about all the people who copy/paste the same log 10 or 20+ times in a single day? If you ask me, that's no different than saying nothing at all. They made no effort to share their experience for each cache, just a cookie cutter log repeated dozens of times. Yet copy/pasted logs don't seem to be a problem in this forum. Let's at least call a spade a spade. In these forums, long time cachers & those with a large number of finds are held in high regard. Around here, it's those very cachers who copy/paste their logs, so there's no blaming newbies. I disagree with that practice as much as many of you disagree with blank logs, but I'm not asking they do it my way.

 

This argument is equivalent to someone who thinks a TV show is inappropriate. So instead of not watching it, they demand it be taken off the air.

 

If you read the actual text of the guidelines, I don't think that interpretation is sustainable. What they explicitly say is that if you sign the log, that gives you the right to log the find online.

If you read the actual text of the guidelines, it says that physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. It says nothing about what you need to say in the online log. It also doesn't say that you can log a find only if you signed the physical log. Cache owners can accept online logs whether or not you signed the online log, but they cannot start having additional requirements for logging a find online.

 

One interpretation is that they cannot require you to write anything in online log. By this interpretation they cannot delete an online log because it is blank.

 

Note that the guidelines also ask cache owners to delete online logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate.

Thank you for elaborating on what I said. My point was that defining "logging a cache online" is completely open to interpretation. I consider the mere act of marking it as Found to be "logging it" online, whether we comment on the cache or not. Others consider logging it online to be both marking it Found AND including a text log. Groundspeak doesn't define it either way so it could mean either.

 

I just roll my eyes and move on when finding a blank log. But that's ok, I own an Iphone with the caching app and I'll be sure to pay them back if/when they hide a cache.

I'm sure there will be many others rolling their eyes at CO's who feel the need to seek some sort of childish revenge against someone who found their cache and didn't log it in a manner they desire.

 

But really what's the difference between a blank log and TFTC? Although TFTC is indicating thanks, many COs believe that it's a negative log anyhow. I really do not understand how the TFTC came about anyway. Typing "thanks" uses 6 keys, while "TFTC" is 5 if you use caps. On a phone it's 8 due to no caps lock, so it's really not saving any time.

Personally I don't think it's about saving time. When I first started, I saw all the acronyms & took the time to find out what they meant. I view Geocachers as a relatively small, private group of people who play a game many others don't even know about, let alone play themselves. So I see the acronyms as a unique, private little language used only by those playing this game. I don't view them as a negative. If they were, chances are they never would have caught on like they did.

 

Geocaching had established Folkways and Mores for 10 years before blank logs came along. Posting blank logs to the Geocaching website is like charging into it like a bull into a china shop, and a totally clueless bull at that. Don't you understand?

Off topic, but being a fan of the show & relevant to your analogy, I thought I'd bring it up. The crew of Mythbusters tested "Like a bull in a china shop" and surprisingly enough, the bulls did quite well avoiding all of the shelves filled with china. Obviously their sheer girth caused a few broken items, but the results were nothing compared to what the old idiom suggests.

 

I think that attempting to educate is a much better solution.

But I don't think education is necessary. What are you educating these people to do? By leaving blank logs, they're not violating the rules. In Groundspeak's eyes, no real harm is done. I understand, many CO's enjoy reading logs and some are disappointed when they come across blank ones. But I have to believe there are plenty of "good" logs available to read that more than make up for blank ones. So the only thing you're educating them to do is play by your rules.

 

It is in Groundspeak's best interest to not let older players do things that would upset newcomers to the game. I can understand that, but I sure would love to see Groundspeak go to greater lengths to educate those newcomers about logging etiquette.

So are you trying to say they HAD to allow blank logs even though it may not be right? Just to pacify newcomers. Here's the thing...they don't have to go to greater lengths to educate about logging etiquette because as far as this topic is concerned, there's nothing to educate. The rules state blank logs are allowed, so there's absolutely no need to force (or "educate") people to write something out. If GS added something like, Blank logs are allowed but cache owners do enjoy reading logs, so consider sharing something, would that make everyone feel better?

 

Uh, who hid those caches for you to get your smiley's with? They should have no opinion on how you play the game with their caches?

Having & sharing an opinion is one thing, but being a CO does not give you the authority to tell others how to play the game. You go beyond simply offering an opinion when you email someone who left a blank log & coerce them into changing it. So to answer your question, yes CO's are allowed an opinion...I never said they weren't. ALL cachers have a right to share their opinion. We all invest our time, effort & money into playing this game. As long as someone is playing the game within GS guidelines, sharing opinions is where it should end, but it's going beyond that. Just because it's their cache doesn't give them the right to come up with any ole requirement they want. Variances in how individuals play this game must be allowed. Groundspeak recognizes that.

 

i just started geocaching and i'm guilty of not signing a log here and there as many other people have too(i do sign the logs nowadays since most people whine and go on foolish from what i seen). but your elitist attitude is what may or may not kill geocaching just like many other casual activities that have come and gone because of this mentality. there is no professional league of geocaching so till then let people enjoy the activity it is.

 

its just whiny and just plain childish to say play by my rules. something tells me that you were the type of kid that had to have it their way or nothing at all.

 

as long as i open a cache and leave something and hide it again then so what. me and a friend play geocaching in a different way but it doesn't effect the cache nor does it change anything for the next geocacher. but all and all in the end. it's all about the find and the area it takes me where i know i would have never visited ever.

 

geocaching has got my friends off the couch to venture into the woods instead of firing up the xbox360 and getting all fat and ugly. the real success of geocaching is connecting with friends and doing something together plus getting exercise. but the hardcores and that log book....come on.

I agree. Play how we want, but be sure to play by the rules laid out in front of us. I think there are more worthwhile topics than to argue over getting one group of cachers to play the same as another group.

 

You make a fair point here that I think most of us basically accept. However, the people in these forums are mostly a bit more INTO geocaching than many cachers. Thats why they post here instead of doing their jobs. They love the game.

I think a positive result of this is that they tend to hide pretty cool caches. Look around these forums and compare the ones that people who've been here for ages own to the caches you typically find.

I think you'll notice that the people in these forums, for all their whining, hide caches that are really fun and took a bit of work.

 

Next, remind yourself that your logs get sent to the e-mail of the CO. In essence you are e-mailing the CO a message when you log a find online.

 

So basically, these people put a lot of work into their cache to give back to the game they love. Most of the logs (read:e-mails) they get from cachers AT LEAST say Thank You for the Cache in acronym form

So suddenly, an e-mail hits their inbox and they are pretty excited, because they are a nerd who loves to set-up fun experiences for others... and the finder literally has nothing to say. Its blank. They just found it.

 

Does this necessarily excuse the "whining" and hand wringing over something so small? Maybe (probably?) not, but perhaps it will help you empathize and understand that the same reason they take it personal when someone doesn't log their find "politely" is the same reason some people make awesome hides. Passion and excitement for geocaching.

 

It would be one thing if some guy out there with a really lame cache was complaining, but these dudes are probably hiding the ones that you and your friends make sure to mention in their logs. I think that sense of scope could maybe help understand where they might be upset...

 

I'm making generalizations here, but I think they helped me understand the angst. When I started placing caches, I began to treasure those logs and I started to write better ones.

You make a very good point, passion for the game. You don't have to be a CO to be passionate about Geocaching. I thoroughly enjoy this hobby. It's given me & my family something fun to do outdoors and brought us to great locations we never would have seen otherwise. I am passionate about this game and that's one reason why I support blank logs (even though I don't do it myself). I think they have the right to play how they want and if they don't want to leave a log, it's not our place to tell them otherwise because it isn't against the rules. Does leaving a blank log automatically mean they're any less passionate about the game? No. Let's not forget that passion can be found on both sides of this debate.

Edited July 11, 2011 by TL&MinBHIL