Do i have the right to delete a log if the finder did not come at appropriate hours

[+Ambient_Skater]

How is stating that you will exercise your responsibility to delete inappropriate logs an Additional Logging Requirement?

You're telling the finder to write their log a certain way.

[+sword fern]

How is stating that you will exercise your responsibility to delete inappropriate logs an Additional Logging Requirement?

You're telling the finder to write their log a certain way.

But it's an inappropriate log as Don said. You said it yourself as the first post of this thread.

[+Don_J]

How is stating that you will exercise your responsibility to delete inappropriate logs an Additional Logging Requirement?

You're telling the finder to write their log a certain way.

 

Actually, you are telling the finder to NOT write their log in a certain way. You are asking them to omit something, which is the opposite from asking for something "additional".

[+Ambient_Skater]

But if they originally intended to write the log in a way that mentions the act you don't like, they would need to additionally process their log to omit it.

[+Castle Mischief]

But if they originally intended to write the log in a way that mentions the act you don't like, they would need to additionally process their log to omit it.

 

No. What they need to do is not be a bone-head about operating hours and then posting about it in a log. That's not an ALR.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Castle Mischief

[+tozainamboku]

But if they originally intended to write the log in a way that mentions the act you don't like, they would need to additionally process their log to omit it.

Had you been around when ALRs were allowed you might have a better idea of what TPTB were trying to control when the guidelines were changed.

 

Essentially, there was a time when the cache owner was king. They could make up any arbitrary rule for logging their cache online. Most were meant as a way to add some fun to an otherwise ordinary cache: post a picture of yourself standing on your head, write your log in haiku, trade items only with a certain theme.

 

Most cache owners were pretty reasonable with these requests. Often they ended up not deleting logs so long as the finders made some attempt at fulfilling the logging requirements. But some became sticklers. If your haiku didn't have exactly 17 syllables your log was deleted. Worse, the requests became more and more bizarre. It was as if the point was just how far could you make someone go to get a smiley.

 

TPTB decided to put an end to these sorts of ALRs. Rather than creating arbitrary rule as which ALRs were OK and which went to far, they essentially made a change that cache owners could have a simple optional task to do when logging a cache but could they could no longer delete logs solely based on whether this task was done.

 

There were of course other reasons that a log could be deleted by the cache owner. These are stated in the guidelines as logs which are bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate. It was clear that cache owners could delete not only bogus logs but logs containing spoilers and log that violated the Groundspeak Terms of Use.

 

The ALR change was unfortunate in that it emphasized that physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. That has lead to a misinterpretation that once a cache has been found and the physical logbook sign a cache owner may not delete the log. I noticed the latest revision of the guidelines have been simplified. This may make it less clear to new cachers the historic reasons for this guideline and make it more likely to misinterpreted.

[+CanadianRockies]

But if they originally intended to write the log in a way that mentions the act you don't like, they would need to additionally process their log to omit it.

And if they originally intended to write foul words and spoilers, then they would need to "additionally" process their log to omit it. But that doesn't make it an Additional Logging Requirement. As you noted yourself, inappropriate logs can deleted, and logs that mention breaking the law can be considered inappropriate by the cache owner.

Edited July 5, 2011 by CanadianRockies

[+NeverSummer]

So, I go find a cache. I don't see any other people. No cache owner, no muggles, no other cacher. I don't even get seen by a police officer or stopped by anyone in or out. I come home and log it.

 

When did I find it? Nobody knows but me...

 

But, if a cache is published after/at/around dusk, and park hours say I shouldn't be there...there isn't much stopping me from "finding" the cache if the above is what happened. A cache owner can mention the park regulations, but they cannot keep someone from breaking the law/rule/guideline. Does this mean the cacher didn't find the cache, just because it was after hours? No. They found it. You likely shouldn't be deleting their log, but as the cache owner you can send a reminder email about caching guidelines and park regulations.

 

The idea here is to keep geocaching from getting a bad name...but, who is to say that caching after hours is going to do just that? Nobody can say for sure.

 

If I get caught, am I going to tell the police officer that I was geocaching? No, not me. I'm going to tell them that I was out for a walk. What if I get seen lurking? Well, then I'm not a very good cacher, then. The whole idea is hidden in plain sight; stealthiness; knowing something that others don't know...being a wizard to their muggle.

 

Raise your hand if you have ever--in your whole life--been in a park "after hours". Ok, let me get a count here...oh, my...that's a lot of you. And now, how many have been asked to leave said park by an officer of some sort? Uh-huh...yeah, wow. Yeah, many of you have! Of those, folks, how many of you were geocaching at the time? Mmm-hmm...interesting...a good number of you have done that.

 

Well, that's a lot of logs to delete, now isn't it!

 

So, you see...we can hem and haw about all of this, or just let it be. Cache smart. Cache according to the guidelines. Follow any and all local rules, laws and guidelines. Don't be a twit. Don't sell out. Don't squeal.

 

Keep geocaching in the shadows, and learn how to be the best, well-rounded cacher you can be.

 

[+tozainamboku]

Why do people confuse finding a cache with logging a find online? Is it because the find count is the number of online finds you have? So it becomes the "score" for geocaching.

 

Nobody is say you can take away someone's find because they cached after hours. What they are saying is that you can delete a log that promotes or provides instructional information about illegal activities. Logging that you ignored signs because they are really enforced so you can get an FTF could be construed as promoting being in a park after posted hours. A person who choses to find a cache when a park is closed can certainly log a find online without mentioning that they ignored signs. It may be harder to delete a log that said "Oops I didn't see the sign or read your warning on the cache page so I found this after dark". I think the real problem are those which say "Even though I knew the park was closed, I went to look for this".

[+NeverSummer]

Speaking of FTF after hours...

I did it once.

 

A cache was published later on in the evening. I couldn't make it to GZ until just after the park closed...Uh oh.

 

So, I went for it anyway. I drove 20 minutes to miss the park closing hours by 10 minutes. I went in, hiked through the trails and made the find. As I came back to the parking lot, I was greeted by the local black-and-white parked next to my car. I walked up, said hello, and had a great conversation about the park, park hours, vandals, and methamphetamine. The officer asked that I mind the rules and not do it again.

 

I went on my way... Got home, logged the find, and mentioned the story. I got an email back from the owner of the cache about park hours, and a carefully worked reminder about following "the rules". So, between the officer and the owner, I got a lesson (about a subject I was well versed in from being a kid and playing in playgrounds after hours...hockey, sledding, swingsets...so tempting after hours as a kid!)

 

I have still gone looking for caches after posted hours. Heck, there was a "night cache" I went looking for in a park that has clearly stated hours about "after dark". That cache was still published, and nobody has complained yet. It is up to us a cachers to decide if we want to get a ticket, a tow, handcuffs or a stern talking to no matter when or where we geocache. It is a risk we take all of the time, and some of us can do so with grace.

[+NeverSummer]

Why do people confuse finding a cache with logging a find online? Is it because the find count is the number of online finds you have? So it becomes the "score" for geocaching.

 

Nobody is say you can take away someone's find because they cached after hours. What they are saying is that you can delete a log that promotes or provides instructional information about illegal activities. Logging that you ignored signs because they are really enforced so you can get an FTF could be construed as promoting being in a park after posted hours. A person who choses to find a cache when a park is closed can certainly log a find online without mentioning that they ignored signs. It may be harder to delete a log that said "Oops I didn't see the sign or read your warning on the cache page so I found this after dark". I think the real problem are those which say "Even though I knew the park was closed, I went to look for this".

I agree with everything you say but: "Logging that you ignored signs because they are really [sic] enforced so you can get an FTF could be construed as promoting being in a park after posted hours."

 

If someone reads a log about getting a FTF, and it happens to be after hours when the find occurred, the finder is hardly condoning or recommending that anyone else follow suit. My family has a home right on a trail system with posted park hours. And yet, people walk their dogs before bed...right on those very trails.

 

This is less about condoning the activity, and more about being smart with the way you cache. Follow rules. Follow the law. Adhere to the guidelines of geocaching.com and Groundspeak. But saying that finding a cache after hours equates condoning breaking laws or rules puts far too much of the onus on that finder. Each one of us can use our own heads to make decisions.

 

Think of it this way:

If a cache says that climbing equipment is recommended, yet someone finds it by scrambling up (or down) to find it, have they not used the same judgement of consequence? Cache after hours, may have to deal with a police officer. Climb without equipment? You might fall and get hurt.

 

Each cacher is responsible for their own decisions and must weigh the risks appropriate to their own sense of self.

[+Planet]

If the logs are being read by the park management, the first thing I would do is delete it if it mentions coming after hours, or sneaking in. Then i would ask the cacher to rewrite it and remove mention of breaking the law. That can get caching banned in your park. If there is no mention of being there after hours, I would let it go.

[+Don_J]

Speaking of FTF after hours...

I did it once.

 

A cache was published later on in the evening. I couldn't make it to GZ until just after the park closed...Uh oh.

 

So, I went for it anyway. I drove 20 minutes to miss the park closing hours by 10 minutes. I went in, hiked through the trails and made the find. As I came back to the parking lot, I was greeted by the local black-and-white parked next to my car. I walked up, said hello, and had a great conversation about the park, park hours, vandals, and methamphetamine. The officer asked that I mind the rules and not do it again.

 

I went on my way... Got home, logged the find, and mentioned the story. I got an email back from the owner of the cache about park hours, and a carefully worked reminder about following "the rules". So, between the officer and the owner, I got a lesson (about a subject I was well versed in from being a kid and playing in playgrounds after hours...hockey, sledding, swingsets...so tempting after hours as a kid!)

 

I have still gone looking for caches after posted hours. Heck, there was a "night cache" I went looking for in a park that has clearly stated hours about "after dark". That cache was still published, and nobody has complained yet. It is up to us a cachers to decide if we want to get a ticket, a tow, handcuffs or a stern talking to no matter when or where we geocache. It is a risk we take all of the time, and some of us can do so with grace.

 

I don't know what is stupider. Knowingly breaking posted rules and laws, or bragging about it in cache logs and on forum boards.

[+Don_J]

 

Think of it this way:

If a cache says that climbing equipment is recommended, yet someone finds it by scrambling up (or down) to find it, have they not used the same judgement of consequence? Cache after hours, may have to deal with a police officer. Climb without equipment? You might fall and get hurt.

 

Each cacher is responsible for their own decisions and must weigh the risks appropriate to their own sense of self.

 

You fail to consider the point that it is not just about you and the police officer. The owner of the land you are trespassing on is also involved. Because of your reckless actions and disregard for their property rights, they may reconsider allowing caches on their property. This could have far reaching consequences that involve countless more people than just you and the cop giving you the ticket.

 

Since you seem to have some sort of problem with distinguishing the difference between right and wrong, all we can ask is that you don't involve the rest of the Geocaching world by bragging about your illegal exploits.

[+NeverSummer]

Speaking of FTF after hours...

I did it once.

 

A cache was published later on in the evening. I couldn't make it to GZ until just after the park closed...Uh oh.

 

So, I went for it anyway. I drove 20 minutes to miss the park closing hours by 10 minutes. I went in, hiked through the trails and made the find. As I came back to the parking lot, I was greeted by the local black-and-white parked next to my car. I walked up, said hello, and had a great conversation about the park, park hours, vandals, and methamphetamine. The officer asked that I mind the rules and not do it again.

 

I went on my way... Got home, logged the find, and mentioned the story. I got an email back from the owner of the cache about park hours, and a carefully worked reminder about following "the rules". So, between the officer and the owner, I got a lesson (about a subject I was well versed in from being a kid and playing in playgrounds after hours...hockey, sledding, swingsets...so tempting after hours as a kid!)

 

I have still gone looking for caches after posted hours. Heck, there was a "night cache" I went looking for in a park that has clearly stated hours about "after dark". That cache was still published, and nobody has complained yet. It is up to us a cachers to decide if we want to get a ticket, a tow, handcuffs or a stern talking to no matter when or where we geocache. It is a risk we take all of the time, and some of us can do so with grace.

 

I don't know what is stupider. Knowingly breaking posted rules and laws, or bragging about it in cache logs and on forum boards.

 

Bragging? Puh-leeze, Don. I'd appreciate not being called stupid by a complete stranger. But that's tough for some in the forums. I get that.

[+NeverSummer]

 

Think of it this way:

If a cache says that climbing equipment is recommended, yet someone finds it by scrambling up (or down) to find it, have they not used the same judgement of consequence? Cache after hours, may have to deal with a police officer. Climb without equipment? You might fall and get hurt.

 

Each cacher is responsible for their own decisions and must weigh the risks appropriate to their own sense of self.

 

You fail to consider the point that it is not just about you and the police officer. The owner of the land you are trespassing on is also involved. Because of your reckless actions and disregard for their property rights, they may reconsider allowing caches on their property. This could have far reaching consequences that involve countless more people than just you and the cop giving you the ticket.

 

Since you seem to have some sort of problem with distinguishing the difference between right and wrong, all we can ask is that you don't involve the rest of the Geocaching world by bragging about your illegal exploits.

 

I fail at nothing, Don. The deal here is something that is apparently not clear to you:

People go into parks after hours all of the time. (Not just geocachers...and that's my point)

 

I really, really don't appreciate your tone, calling me stupid, or making assumptions that I don't "care about right and wrong". How dare you think that I have no morals. It is hardly your place to tell me how to live, first of all, and to guess that what I'm saying here is that everyone should "break the law" when searching for caches. Try getting off of your high horse and reading what I said carefully.

 

To think that a cacher can change the whole of property permissions fails to acknowledge how geocaching began: hiding something that only some knew about. If a cacher can't be just "another" person in a park, then they risk a cache being muggled, at a minimum, and the area becoming off limits at maximum. Bottom line? Cachers are responsible for their own actions. Period.

 

I have entered parks after hours without being a geocacher. Does that put use of trails for walking your dog at risk of getting barred from the park? Not likely at all. Does it mean that I might get a citation for being in a park after hours? You bet. And that is something any and all of us can decide. Do we always go precisely at or under the speed limit? If you, Don, do not, then can I call you stupid or assume that you have a problem distinguishing right from wrong? Hardly.

 

I have never, ever BRAGGED about my "illegal" exploits. I offered a story to support wise decision making when seeking a cache. I also, apparently, opened your eyes to the reality that some folks do indeed seek caches after hours and claim their finds. Just because I have (out of my nearly 800 finds) looked for 2-4 caches "after hours" does not mean that I am stupid, cocky or unable to distinguish between right and wrong. On the contrary, I clearly know "right", "wrong" and "grey area".

[+NeverSummer]

Cachers risk just as much each day by seeking caches in the daylight. Look at all of the bomb scares, police calls, angry landowners and confused muggles. Should anyone break a law to seek a cache? No. Should we follow the guidelines when seeking a cache through geocaching.com? Of course.

 

Can anyone tell you what to do? No. If you simply say "TNLNSL" for each log, nobody is the wiser about how, when or where you cache. It is up to the cacher to make a prudent, well-educated decision when seeking a cache. Geocachers assume all risks while seeking or hiding a geocache.

 

"What are the rules of geocaching? If you take something from the geocache (or "cache"), leave something of equal or greater value. Write about your find in the cache logbook. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com."

 

All local laws apply. Failure to follow the law is done at the risk of the geocacher.

 

guideline - a detailed plan or explanation to guide you in setting standards or determining a course of action

law - a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority; the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules

 

Groundspeak doesn't appear to want to get into morality or enacting law to govern the act of geocaching. Some places have specific geocaching rules (cities in MN, for example). Many other places have no specific rules whatsoever. Those that do have either come to this decision after having been contacted by someone about creation of policy, or as a direct response to a specific issue that came to light due to a geocacher/geocache (loitering, bomb scare, etc) Those without laws, rules or guidelines exist because of careful and educated use of the established geocaching.com guidelines and prudent decision making by individual geocachers.

[+Ambient_Skater]

...I really, really don't appreciate your tone, calling me stupid, or making assumptions that I don't "care about right and wrong". How dare you think that I have no morals. It is hardly your place to tell me how to live...

[+NeverSummer]

...I really, really don't appreciate your tone, calling me stupid, or making assumptions that I don't "care about right and wrong". How dare you think that I have no morals. It is hardly your place to tell me how to live...

Precisely.

(It's too hot for popcorn right now)

[+tozainamboku]

To think that a cacher can change the whole of property permissions fails to acknowledge how geocaching began: hiding something that only some knew about. If a cacher can't be just "another" person in a park, then they risk a cache being muggled, at a minimum, and the area becoming off limits at maximum. Bottom line? Cachers are responsible for their own actions. Period.

I agree with you that cachers are responsible for their own decisions and that people frequently ignore posted signs at parks when walking their dogs or just taking a short cut. In fact most of the time the park isn't really closed so much as the park puts up signs to reduce noise or neighbors concern about crime.

 

I would likely not delete logs if it were my cache because I believe that park managers know that people are often in the park after dark and they probably aren't going to be too concerned that sometimes a cacher goes in the park after hours. However, there have been cases where permission for caching in a park or park system has been revoked because park managers get the impression that geocachers don't follow rules or where they have even blamed geocachers for damaged park property. I'm not sure whether a park manager might be more upset that a log is being deleted to hide the fact that someone was in the park after hours than by the infraction itself. However, I believe it is up to the cache owner to decide whether to these delete logs and that such deletions are within the guidelines. What I most object to is the misreading of the no ALR guidelines without knowing the context in which these guidelines were created. Just as I object to those who read into the guidelines that the physical must be signed to log a find online, so do I object to those who say that a cache owner cannot delete the online once the physical log is signed.

[+RhinoInAToga]

I'm not the grammar police and don't usually correct people for grammar or spelling...but "stupider" isn't even a word. To be more specific, it's a word written in the wrong form. People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word. When used while attempting to insult someone, it has the exact opposite effect.

[+GeoGeeBee]

People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word.

General acceptance is precisely what does make it a word.

[mresoteric]

I have entered parks after hours without being a geocacher. Does that put use of trails for walking your dog at risk of getting barred from the park? Not likely at all. Does it mean that I might get a citation for being in a park after hours? You bet. And that is something any and all of us can decide. Do we always go precisely at or under the speed limit? If you, Don, do not, then can I call you stupid or assume that you have a problem distinguishing right from wrong? Hardly.

 

I have never, ever BRAGGED about my "illegal" exploits. I offered a story to support wise decision making when seeking a cache. I also, apparently, opened your eyes to the reality that some folks do indeed seek caches after hours and claim their finds. Just because I have (out of my nearly 800 finds) looked for 2-4 caches "after hours" does not mean that I am stupid, cocky or unable to distinguish between right and wrong. On the contrary, I clearly know "right", "wrong" and "grey area".

 

I agree with you to a point. While walking your dog will be more likely to just affect you (ticket, etc.) it will probably not result in walkers being barred from the park. But, breaking park rules could easily result in the banning of geocaches or the enactment of permitting policies.

 

Again, there is really no difference between the two, but we are dealing with human beings here. Not everyone in authority acts logically.

 

I just wouldn't recommend mentioning it in a log and if someone were to do it like in the op I would remove it and offer them the chance to log again without the info.

[+NeverSummer]

I have entered parks after hours without being a geocacher. Does that put use of trails for walking your dog at risk of getting barred from the park? Not likely at all. Does it mean that I might get a citation for being in a park after hours? You bet. And that is something any and all of us can decide. Do we always go precisely at or under the speed limit? If you, Don, do not, then can I call you stupid or assume that you have a problem distinguishing right from wrong? Hardly.

 

I have never, ever BRAGGED about my "illegal" exploits. I offered a story to support wise decision making when seeking a cache. I also, apparently, opened your eyes to the reality that some folks do indeed seek caches after hours and claim their finds. Just because I have (out of my nearly 800 finds) looked for 2-4 caches "after hours" does not mean that I am stupid, cocky or unable to distinguish between right and wrong. On the contrary, I clearly know "right", "wrong" and "grey area".

 

I agree with you to a point. While walking your dog will be more likely to just affect you (ticket, etc.) it will probably not result in walkers being barred from the park. But, breaking park rules could easily result in the banning of geocaches or the enactment of permitting policies.

 

Again, there is really no difference between the two, but we are dealing with human beings here. Not everyone in authority acts logically.

 

I just wouldn't recommend mentioning it in a log and if someone were to do it like in the op I would remove it and offer them the chance to log again without the info.

I think we agree with the whole deal. The main thing to realize here is, how does a security guard or police officer know you are geocaching? You tell them that's how. It's all about how you present it, and all about how you look while you cache.

 

If you use poor judgement hiding or seeking a cache in the daylight you risk being caught by someone. It doesn't matter if it is day or night. The thing that folks need to understand is how to talk to authorities, and how to not look like a vandal/terrorist/saboteur. It's a pretty simple thing, and thinking about more than just the cache will help you understand that there are many things that go into looking for a geocache, and not being an overt loiterer/vandal is one of them.

 

If you give an authority figure a chance to act logically, it's a good thing. Acting suspicious or trying to excuse your behavior is one thing...but starting your conversation with a police officer doing their job with, "I was geocaching" is bound to get a bad taste in their mouth. Open with "I'm sorry. I was walking through the park and enjoying what it has to offer. I won't do it again."

 

From there, you can gauge their response and let them ask the questions. If they are fired up about you being where you shouldn't be, it's not the best time to share with them our "secret" society of junk-in-the-woods treasure hunting. You HAVE to start with something they understand, like being out for a stroll. Then, once they get to tell you that you shouldn't be there, you have a chance to apologize and deal with the consequences. That, and you might get to talk to them and have a great conversation about what it was you were doing WHILE out walking in the park.

 

Geocachers are not entitled to cache at will. This is a game of sneakiness, through and through. We're hiding stuff where most people don't know something is hidden. And we want to keep it that way. That's what it's all about: hiding and finding items without "muggles" knowing about it.

[+GeoGeeBee]

The main thing to realize here is, how does a security guard or police officer know you are geocaching? You tell them that's how.

 

Really? You think a security guard or police officer isn't going to notice that you are walking in circles while staring at a GPSr?

 

If they know what geocaching is, they will know you are geocaching. If they don't, they are going to be very suspicious. If you try to tell them you are just out for an evening stroll to get some fresh air, they are going to know you are lying.

 

And when a cop (maybe not a security guard) knows you are lying to him, expect to be thoroughly questioned while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

[+Ambient_Skater]

That's what it's all about: hiding and finding items without "muggles" knowing about it.

I thought it was about finding items using a GPS device?

[+CanadianRockies]

That's what it's all about: hiding and finding items without "muggles" knowing about it.

I thought it was about finding items using a GPS device?

It's more about finding items using coordinates -- not GPS devices. Some geocachers find caches without using GPSrs. Most attempt to do this without "muggles" knowing about it.

[+Ambient_Skater]

Either way, the point of geocaching has never been to find containers without muggles knowing. We keep them from finding out since some might take the containers, and some people might enjoy that aspect, but it's not the main goal.

[+RhinoInAToga]

while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

 

They do this anyways, no matter what. Take it from me, we cache at night all the time. They stop at least once a night to see what we're up to. We're out at 2:00 am. It's their job. No matter where we are, or what we look like. The officers in my town are extremely familiar with caching, as the local PD has a cache on it's grounds, maintained by a local officer. (Whom we've had the pleasure to meet, he's a very nice guy.) Even he has run our plates & checked our IDs. Like I stated previously, it's what they do; it's their job. So it doesn't matter if you "act suspicious" or not. It's going to happen.

 

Consider it extra incentive to keep your nose clean.

Edited July 7, 2011 by RhinoInAToga

[+RhinoInAToga]

Double post, sorry. Hit "reply" instead of "edit". Urgh.

Edited July 7, 2011 by RhinoInAToga

[+sword fern]

People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word.

General acceptance is precisely what does make it a word.

Don't you mean Public Acceptance?

[+sword fern]

while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

]

 

They do this anyways, no matter what. Take it from me, we cache at night all the time. They stop at least once a night to see what we're up to. We're out at 2:00 am. It's their job. No matter where we are, or what we look like. The officers in my town are extremely familiar with caching, as the local PD has a cache on it's grounds, maintained by a local officer. (Whom we've had the pleasure to meet, he's a very nice guy.) Even he has run our plates & checked our IDs. Like I stated previously, it's what they do; it's their job. So it doesn't matter if you "act suspicious" or not. It's going to happen.

 

Consider it extra incentive to keep your nose clean.

 

It does matter if you act suspicious or not. If your sitting on a bench eating a tuna sandwich and an officer approaches you and asks you for an ID, you'll be wondering what you did wrong. However, if you were poking around the bushes for no apparent reason and an officer asks for your ID, you will know what you were doing to make the officer approach you.

[+Ambient_Skater]

They do this anyways, no matter what.

I was gonna say that but decided it wasn't really relevant.

 

I guess GeoGeeBee hasn't been stopped by the police very many times, but they usually check for warrants through the MDT. It's faster, and the cop and the subject doesn't have to stand there and raise their eyebrows at each other while they listen to the dispatcher read through their whole record.

[+RhinoInAToga]

People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word.

General acceptance is precisely what does make it a word.

Don't you mean Public Acceptance?

No, it really doesn't. All it means is that if someone says it, you know what they mean. My baby says "Baba" for "bottle". I know what she means..it's still not a word.

[+RhinoInAToga]

while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

]

 

They do this anyways, no matter what. Take it from me, we cache at night all the time. They stop at least once a night to see what we're up to. We're out at 2:00 am. It's their job. No matter where we are, or what we look like. The officers in my town are extremely familiar with caching, as the local PD has a cache on it's grounds, maintained by a local officer. (Whom we've had the pleasure to meet, he's a very nice guy.) Even he has run our plates & checked our IDs. Like I stated previously, it's what they do; it's their job. So it doesn't matter if you "act suspicious" or not. It's going to happen.

 

Consider it extra incentive to keep your nose clean.

 

It does matter if you act suspicious or not. If your sitting on a bench eating a tuna sandwich and an officer approaches you and asks you for an ID, you'll be wondering what you did wrong. However, if you were poking around the bushes for no apparent reason and an officer asks for your ID, you will know what you were doing to make the officer approach you.

It has nothing to do with what you are doing, and everything to do with when you are doing it. Eat that same tuna sandwich on that same bench at 3:00 am. Watch what happens.

[+Ambient_Skater]

My baby says "Baba" for "bottle". I know what she means..it's still not a word.

If you know what it means, and she knows what it means, who get's to decide if something is "a word" or not?

[mresoteric]

The main thing to realize here is, how does a security guard or police officer know you are geocaching? You tell them that's how.

 

Really? You think a security guard or police officer isn't going to notice that you are walking in circles while staring at a GPSr?

 

If they know what geocaching is, they will know you are geocaching. If they don't, they are going to be very suspicious. If you try to tell them you are just out for an evening stroll to get some fresh air, they are going to know you are lying.

 

And when a cop (maybe not a security guard) knows you are lying to him, expect to be thoroughly questioned while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

 

You wouldn't be lying. You just not be forthcoming with the entire truth, which is what NeverSummer is saying. Don't just blurt out geocaching as the first thing you say.

 

I don't know. I prefer to go places when and where I have permission to be there. If I can't be forthcoming with what I am doing then I probably should not be doing it.

[+Too Tall John]

I fail at nothing, Don. The deal here is something that is apparently not clear to you:

People go into parks after hours all of the time. (Not just geocachers...and that's my point)

What you fail miserably at is grasping the concept that we're discussing geocachers posting in their online logs for all to see that they found the cache when a park is closed. This log, if read by a concerned manager, could then mean the end of the cache, maybe a ban in the park.

I really, really don't appreciate your tone, calling me stupid, or making assumptions that I don't "care about right and wrong". How dare you think that I have no morals. It is hardly your place to tell me how to live, first of all, and to guess that what I'm saying here is that everyone should "break the law" when searching for caches. Try getting off of your high horse and reading what I said carefully.

I find it funny that you're telling someone to read carefully when it appears that you haven't read the multiple posts explaining why it is that posting your illegal activities while caching in your geocache log could be bad for the geocache.

To think that a cacher can change the whole of property permissions fails to acknowledge how geocaching began: hiding something that only some knew about. If a cacher can't be just "another" person in a park, then they risk a cache being muggled, at a minimum, and the area becoming off limits at maximum. Bottom line? Cachers are responsible for their own actions. Period.

Yes, cachers are responsible for their own actions. The actions of a single cacher have, in fact, "chang[ed] the whole of property permissions" on more than one occasion. To think that just becaue you don't get caught in the field doesn't mean you won't get caught when you detail what you did in your log is just plain ridiculous. I'll say it again: Just plain ridiculous.

I have entered parks after hours without being a geocacher. Does that put use of trails for walking your dog at risk of getting barred from the park? Not likely at all. Does it mean that I might get a citation for being in a park after hours? You bet. And that is something any and all of us can decide. Do we always go precisely at or under the speed limit? If you, Don, do not, then can I call you stupid or assume that you have a problem distinguishing right from wrong? Hardly.

In your dog walking or speeding examples, the offending party, as far as I know, does not go onto dogwalker.com or speedabit.org and then post details about how they broke the law. If they did, the results might be different.

I have never, ever BRAGGED about my "illegal" exploits. I offered a story to support wise decision making when seeking a cache. I also, apparently, opened your eyes to the reality that some folks do indeed seek caches after hours and claim their finds. Just because I have (out of my nearly 800 finds) looked for 2-4 caches "after hours" does not mean that I am stupid, cocky or unable to distinguish between right and wrong. On the contrary, I clearly know "right", "wrong" and "grey area".

Never bragged? That's a load! This was your post, right?

Speaking of FTF after hours...

I did it once.

 

A cache was published later on in the evening. I couldn't make it to GZ until just after the park closed...Uh oh.

 

So, I went for it anyway.

....

As I came back to the parking lot, I was greeted by the local black-and-white parked next to my car.

....

The officer asked that I mind the rules and not do it again.

....

I got an email back from the owner of the cache about park hours, and a carefully worked reminder about following "the rules".

....

I have still gone looking for caches after posted hours. Heck, there was a "night cache" I went looking for in a park that has clearly stated hours about "after dark".

So, the cop tells you to stop, the cache owner tells you to stop, and come to think of it, in part of the post I snipped, you say that you've been told the same thing since you were a little kid. Yet, you admit to continuing the behavior with seemingly no remorse. You may understand the concept of right and wrong, but you obviously don't think that they apply to you. Narcissistic much? Edited July 7, 2011 by Too Tall John

[+Don_J]

People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word.

General acceptance is precisely what does make it a word.

Don't you mean Public Acceptance?

No, it really doesn't. All it means is that if someone says it, you know what they mean. My baby says "Baba" for "bottle". I know what she means..it's still not a word.

 

Does it matter if it is in the Merriam Webster Dictionary?

 

stupider comparative of stu·pid (Adjective)

1. Lacking intelligence or common sense.

2. Dazed and unable to think clearly. More »

Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

[+RhinoInAToga]

People are beginning to use it more often, (I'm assuming it's because they don't know any better) but general acceptance doesn't make it a word.

General acceptance is precisely what does make it a word.

Don't you mean Public Acceptance?

No, it really doesn't. All it means is that if someone says it, you know what they mean. My baby says "Baba" for "bottle". I know what she means..it's still not a word.

 

Does it matter if it is in the Merriam Webster Dictionary?

 

stupider comparative of stu·pid (Adjective)

1. Lacking intelligence or common sense.

2. Dazed and unable to think clearly. More »

Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

Yes, it does. Only slightly, however, as it also contains "ain't". (yes, I'm southern)

The PP still should not have insulted another, and it still has the exact opposite effect. I usually would concede, but I still feel strongly that this is true. So here I stand.

I am well aware that the PP was you, Don.

Edited July 7, 2011 by RhinoInAToga

[+GeoGeeBee]

That's what it's all about: hiding and finding items without "muggles" knowing about it.

I thought it was about finding items using a GPS device?

It's more about finding items using coordinates -- not GPS devices. Some geocachers find caches without using GPSrs.

 

I think Ambient Skater is right.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307#technical

"GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and finding geocaches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions."

[+NeverSummer]

Either way, the point of geocaching has never been to find containers without muggles knowing. We keep them from finding out since some might take the containers, and some people might enjoy that aspect, but it's not the main goal.

Umm, the way geocaching started was that a select group of folks decided to hide a bucket in the woods. They gave coordinates to find it. They found it. Most people out there didn't know about it. Most people out there still don't know about it. I never said it was the "main goal". I said the point of being "stealthy" is to find caches without muggles knowing. It's all about context, here AS.

 

If non-geocachers do find out about it, some join the fun, but others call the cops, destroy the cache, or defecate in it. The idea of a cache is to keep it hidden so that it a)can keep being found and b)not be seen by non-geocaching folk.

 

If everyone geocached, then we wouldn't have to be "stealthy". It would be just like walking your dog, getting a haircut or waiting for a bus.

 

I'm sure we can let this thread be hijacked by ...SQUIRREL!

Edited July 7, 2011 by NeverSummer

[+NeverSummer]

The main thing to realize here is, how does a security guard or police officer know you are geocaching? You tell them that's how.

 

Really? You think a security guard or police officer isn't going to notice that you are walking in circles while staring at a GPSr?

 

If they know what geocaching is, they will know you are geocaching. If they don't, they are going to be very suspicious. If you try to tell them you are just out for an evening stroll to get some fresh air, they are going to know you are lying.

 

And when a cop (maybe not a security guard) knows you are lying to him, expect to be thoroughly questioned while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

It's not lying to say you were walking in a park. You were. Wow, people like to mince words!

 

And, if you are seen "walking in circles staring at a GPS unit", then it's likely you aren't very good at looking ordinary. This situation could happen day or night, no? (The answer here is "yes") So, it's a moot point. Seeking a cache without looking like a vandal/terrorist is sort of important in the realm of not raising suspicion.

[+NeverSummer]

I fail at nothing, Don. The deal here is something that is apparently not clear to you:

People go into parks after hours all of the time. (Not just geocachers...and that's my point)

What you fail miserably at is grasping the concept that we're discussing geocachers posting in their online logs for all to see that they found the cache when a park is closed. This log, if read by a concerned manager, could then mean the end of the cache, maybe a ban in the park.

I really, really don't appreciate your tone, calling me stupid, or making assumptions that I don't "care about right and wrong". How dare you think that I have no morals. It is hardly your place to tell me how to live, first of all, and to guess that what I'm saying here is that everyone should "break the law" when searching for caches. Try getting off of your high horse and reading what I said carefully.

I find it funny that you're telling someone to read carefully when it appears that you haven't read the multiple posts explaining why it is that posting your illegal activities while caching in your geocache log could be bad for the geocache.

To think that a cacher can change the whole of property permissions fails to acknowledge how geocaching began: hiding something that only some knew about. If a cacher can't be just "another" person in a park, then they risk a cache being muggled, at a minimum, and the area becoming off limits at maximum. Bottom line? Cachers are responsible for their own actions. Period.

Yes, cachers are responsible for their own actions. The actions of a single cacher have, in fact, "chang[ed] the whole of property permissions" on more than one occasion. To think that just becaue you don't get caught in the field doesn't mean you won't get caught when you detail what you did in your log is just plain ridiculous. I'll say it again: Just plain ridiculous.

I have entered parks after hours without being a geocacher. Does that put use of trails for walking your dog at risk of getting barred from the park? Not likely at all. Does it mean that I might get a citation for being in a park after hours? You bet. And that is something any and all of us can decide. Do we always go precisely at or under the speed limit? If you, Don, do not, then can I call you stupid or assume that you have a problem distinguishing right from wrong? Hardly.

In your dog walking or speeding examples, the offending party, as far as I know, does not go onto dogwalker.com or speedabit.org and then post details about how they broke the law. If they did, the results might be different.

I have never, ever BRAGGED about my "illegal" exploits. I offered a story to support wise decision making when seeking a cache. I also, apparently, opened your eyes to the reality that some folks do indeed seek caches after hours and claim their finds. Just because I have (out of my nearly 800 finds) looked for 2-4 caches "after hours" does not mean that I am stupid, cocky or unable to distinguish between right and wrong. On the contrary, I clearly know "right", "wrong" and "grey area".

Never bragged? That's a load! This was your post, right?

Speaking of FTF after hours...

I did it once.

 

A cache was published later on in the evening. I couldn't make it to GZ until just after the park closed...Uh oh.

 

So, I went for it anyway.

....

As I came back to the parking lot, I was greeted by the local black-and-white parked next to my car.

....

The officer asked that I mind the rules and not do it again.

....

I got an email back from the owner of the cache about park hours, and a carefully worked reminder about following "the rules".

....

I have still gone looking for caches after posted hours. Heck, there was a "night cache" I went looking for in a park that has clearly stated hours about "after dark".

So, the cop tells you to stop, the cache owner tells you to stop, and come to think of it, in part of the post I snipped, you say that you've been told the same thing since you were a little kid. Yet, you admit to continuing the behavior with seemingly no remorse. You may understand the concept of right and wrong, but you obviously don't think that they apply to you. Narcissistic much?

John, John, John, John...

 

I did read the entire thread. I was responding to the OP, as well as to other topics that were relevant and brought up by other cachers. So, first, I didn't fail. Not even "miserably".

 

Second, are you defending Don's insults and inappropriate comments? It seems you're enjoying a hog pile with that one. You and Don assume that, when I referenced my log for the FTF cache I found, I "gloated" about being in there after hours. I did not, and it is sad that you both took my forum post to say that. Assume makes an...

 

Third, Umm, yeah. I know. I agree. Which is why I talked about it.

 

Fourth, really? Really? You want to talk about dogwalker.com logging? There are many websites where people discuss illegal activity. And yes, I know that some land managers read the logs on geocaching.com. I never, I repeat never said anything about posting how proud you are to break the posted hours of a park.

 

Fifth, yes. Really, John. I didn't gloat. I TOLD A STORY about how I did it once. My story talked about how I was 10 minutes after park close and was greeted by a cop. That cop told me I shouldn't be there because of vandals, teenagers drinking in the woods, and meth deals that have been busted in the parking lot after hours. So, I told him what I was up to, and he said not to do it again--to make his life a little easier to focus on the "real" baddies: vandals, underage drinkers and drug dealers...NOT geocachers. So I mentioned in my log on geocaching.com that I had met a cop that reminded us all to stay out after hours FOR THOSE REASONS. It was helpful. It provided context to my find. And it showed that even 10 minutes can get you a talking-to by a cop.

 

John, you need to chill. I don't know why you have it out for me. All I am saying is that people like you can't tell me what to do. I will deal with my own decisions. Don't direct your emotion at me about the night cache in a park that has posted closure hours overnight. It was context, John. Context. I'm saying that it happens, and people can make their own decisions. I do, and I deal with the consequence. (And I'm not just talking about geocaching, John.) I hardly think that what I'm saying makes me vain or selfish. I'm giving context to the OP comment. I have looked for a few caches after hours, yes. And I have said that I don't condone breaking the law or rules or guidelines. I don't have "remorse" because I have had great interactions with the authorities when it comes to those few times I was ever in a park after hours--yes, as a kid too. I suppose I'm lucky. It would be foolhardy to not understand the complexities of our society and how geocaching fits into it. There are grey areas, and we can each choose how we want to deal with that.

 

To summarize (as I've said in other posts):

You shouldn't break laws to geocache. You should be aware of your appearance when geocaching. You should know how to interact with "muggles" (including cops) when you geocache. You should, as a cache owner, remind anyone who posts about being after hours to change their logs.

 

How wound up were you coming into the OP's thread? Care to provide context about why you are on the attack?

[+Too Tall John]

John, John, John, John...

 

I did read the entire thread. I was responding to the OP, as well as to other topics that were relevant and brought up by other cachers. So, first, I didn't fail. Not even "miserably".

Reading your past posts and this post, you seem to be saying that you've broken the law to find a couple caches. You say "people like you can't tell me what to do." Red the thread title: Do i have the right to delete a log if the finder did not come at appropriate hours. The answer, according to most in the thread is "Yes, the guidelines support deleting logs that describe finding a cache illegally." Yet, your argument seems to be "I can do it because I got away with it!" Frankly, who cares? Nobody's arguing your right to find the cache in any way you want. The question is about if someone can delete your log if you describe your illegal activity. This is why you have failed to grasp what is going on in the thread. Miserably.

Second, are you defending Don's insults and inappropriate comments? It seems you're enjoying a hog pile with that one. You and Don assume that, when I referenced my log for the FTF cache I found, I "gloated" about being in there after hours. I did not, and it is sad that you both took my forum post to say that. Assume makes an...

Without a citation to your log, all we have to go on is your description of it here. What you described sounded like gloating to me. Regardless of how the log came out, your description here in the forums sounded like a gloat, and land managers, even if they don't read here regularly, can find your post with quick google search for "geocaching after hours".

Third, Umm, yeah. I know. I agree. Which is why I talked about it.

 

Fourth, really? Really? You want to talk about dogwalker.com logging? There are many websites where people discuss illegal activity. And yes, I know that some land managers read the logs on geocaching.com. I never, I repeat never said anything about posting how proud you are to break the posted hours of a park.

...But you did post how you didn't follow the posted hours. You do see the problem with that in the view of a landowner, right?

Fifth, yes. Really, John. I didn't gloat. I TOLD A STORY about how I did it once. My story talked about how I was 10 minutes after park close and was greeted by a cop. That cop told me I shouldn't be there because of vandals, teenagers drinking in the woods, and meth deals that have been busted in the parking lot after hours. So, I told him what I was up to, and he said not to do it again--to make his life a little easier to focus on the "real" baddies: vandals, underage drinkers and drug dealers...NOT geocachers. So I mentioned in my log on geocaching.com that I had met a cop that reminded us all to stay out after hours FOR THOSE REASONS. It was helpful. It provided context to my find. And it showed that even 10 minutes can get you a talking-to by a cop.

That's not how you made it sound in your post that first described your log. Changing stories to benefit your argument, eh?

John, you need to chill. I don't know why you have it out for me. All I am saying is that people like you can't tell me what to do. I will deal with my own decisions. Don't direct your emotion at me about the night cache in a park that has posted closure hours overnight. It was context, John. Context. I'm saying that it happens, and people can make their own decisions. I do, and I deal with the consequence. (And I'm not just talking about geocaching, John.) I hardly think that what I'm saying makes me vain or selfish. I'm giving context to the OP comment. I have looked for a few caches after hours, yes. And I have said that I don't condone breaking the law or rules or guidelines. I don't have "remorse" because I have had great interactions with the authorities when it comes to those few times I was ever in a park after hours--yes, as a kid too. I suppose I'm lucky. It would be foolhardy to not understand the complexities of our society and how geocaching fits into it. There are grey areas, and we can each choose how we want to deal with that.

I agree, to a point. The moment your actions are a problem for others, though, you need to rethink your decisions. Posting logs that would put caches in a poor light to the landowner affects the cache owner, potentially other (or future) cache owners on the same property. They have the right to tell you to stop, even by deleting your log. To claim you have the right to post what you want is (to repeat myself) narcissistic.

To summarize (as I've said in other posts):

You shouldn't break laws to geocache. You should be aware of your appearance when geocaching. You should know how to interact with "muggles" (including cops) when you geocache. You should, as a cache owner, remind anyone who posts about being after hours to change their logs.

 

How wound up were you coming into the OP's thread? Care to provide context about why you are on the attack?

You came into this thread combative and making claims that seemed to oppose what it is you are claiming to have said. Don't act like you're the wounded one, here.

[+NeverSummer]

while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

]

 

They do this anyways, no matter what. Take it from me, we cache at night all the time. They stop at least once a night to see what we're up to. We're out at 2:00 am. It's their job. No matter where we are, or what we look like. The officers in my town are extremely familiar with caching, as the local PD has a cache on it's grounds, maintained by a local officer. (Whom we've had the pleasure to meet, he's a very nice guy.) Even he has run our plates & checked our IDs. Like I stated previously, it's what they do; it's their job. So it doesn't matter if you "act suspicious" or not. It's going to happen.

 

Consider it extra incentive to keep your nose clean.

 

It does matter if you act suspicious or not. If your sitting on a bench eating a tuna sandwich and an officer approaches you and asks you for an ID, you'll be wondering what you did wrong. However, if you were poking around the bushes for no apparent reason and an officer asks for your ID, you will know what you were doing to make the officer approach you.

What, exactly is it that you were doing "wrong" while poking around in a bush? Just because it attracts attention doesn't mean it's "wrong".

 

A man is seen in a park rooting around a bush near a park bench. A few people around him look on with puzzled looks on their face. Within a few moments, a city police officer stops by the park on his rounds. He watches for a beat, and then exits his squad car. The man is still rooting in the bush as the police officer approaches him. "Is everything ok, sir?" asks the officer. "Umm," stutters the man, "Yes. I just dropped my tuna sandwich in this bush."

 

It doesn't have to be geocaching to be suspicious. And what you are doing doesn't have to be wrong. Be sure to not act "wrong" when seeking a cache, or your dropped tuna sandwich.

 

(and no, John and Don, I'm NOT suggesting that this man is lying to the officer and is actually seeking a cache.)

[+NeverSummer]

John, John, John, John...

 

I did read the entire thread. I was responding to the OP, as well as to other topics that were relevant and brought up by other cachers. So, first, I didn't fail. Not even "miserably".

Reading your past posts and this post, you seem to be saying that you've broken the law to find a couple caches. You say "people like you can't tell me what to do." Red the thread title: Do i have the right to delete a log if the finder did not come at appropriate hours. The answer, according to most in the thread is "Yes, the guidelines support deleting logs that describe finding a cache illegally." Yet, your argument seems to be "I can do it because I got away with it!" Frankly, who cares? Nobody's arguing your right to find the cache in any way you want. The question is about if someone can delete your log if you describe your illegal activity. This is why you have failed to grasp what is going on in the thread. Miserably.

Second, are you defending Don's insults and inappropriate comments? It seems you're enjoying a hog pile with that one. You and Don assume that, when I referenced my log for the FTF cache I found, I "gloated" about being in there after hours. I did not, and it is sad that you both took my forum post to say that. Assume makes an...

Without a citation to your log, all we have to go on is your description of it here. What you described sounded like gloating to me. Regardless of how the log came out, your description here in the forums sounded like a gloat, and land managers, even if they don't read here regularly, can find your post with quick google search for "geocaching after hours".

Third, Umm, yeah. I know. I agree. Which is why I talked about it.

 

Fourth, really? Really? You want to talk about dogwalker.com logging? There are many websites where people discuss illegal activity. And yes, I know that some land managers read the logs on geocaching.com. I never, I repeat never said anything about posting how proud you are to break the posted hours of a park.

...But you did post how you didn't follow the posted hours. You do see the problem with that in the view of a landowner, right?

Fifth, yes. Really, John. I didn't gloat. I TOLD A STORY about how I did it once. My story talked about how I was 10 minutes after park close and was greeted by a cop. That cop told me I shouldn't be there because of vandals, teenagers drinking in the woods, and meth deals that have been busted in the parking lot after hours. So, I told him what I was up to, and he said not to do it again--to make his life a little easier to focus on the "real" baddies: vandals, underage drinkers and drug dealers...NOT geocachers. So I mentioned in my log on geocaching.com that I had met a cop that reminded us all to stay out after hours FOR THOSE REASONS. It was helpful. It provided context to my find. And it showed that even 10 minutes can get you a talking-to by a cop.

That's not how you made it sound in your post that first described your log. Changing stories to benefit your argument, eh?

John, you need to chill. I don't know why you have it out for me. All I am saying is that people like you can't tell me what to do. I will deal with my own decisions. Don't direct your emotion at me about the night cache in a park that has posted closure hours overnight. It was context, John. Context. I'm saying that it happens, and people can make their own decisions. I do, and I deal with the consequence. (And I'm not just talking about geocaching, John.) I hardly think that what I'm saying makes me vain or selfish. I'm giving context to the OP comment. I have looked for a few caches after hours, yes. And I have said that I don't condone breaking the law or rules or guidelines. I don't have "remorse" because I have had great interactions with the authorities when it comes to those few times I was ever in a park after hours--yes, as a kid too. I suppose I'm lucky. It would be foolhardy to not understand the complexities of our society and how geocaching fits into it. There are grey areas, and we can each choose how we want to deal with that.

I agree, to a point. The moment your actions are a problem for others, though, you need to rethink your decisions. Posting logs that would put caches in a poor light to the landowner affects the cache owner, potentially other (or future) cache owners on the same property. They have the right to tell you to stop, even by deleting your log. To claim you have the right to post what you want is (to repeat myself) narcissistic.

To summarize (as I've said in other posts):

You shouldn't break laws to geocache. You should be aware of your appearance when geocaching. You should know how to interact with "muggles" (including cops) when you geocache. You should, as a cache owner, remind anyone who posts about being after hours to change their logs.

 

How wound up were you coming into the OP's thread? Care to provide context about why you are on the attack?

You came into this thread combative and making claims that seemed to oppose what it is you are claiming to have said. Don't act like you're the wounded one, here.

John, what is with you, man? Seriously? Do we need to take this of forum to email?

 

My first post in this thread says "So, you see...we can hem and haw about all of this, or just let it be. Cache smart. Cache according to the guidelines. Follow any and all local rules, laws and guidelines. Don't be a twit. Don't sell out. Don't squeal."

 

That post discussed both the OP question and some other continuing rhetoric about finding caches after hours. So, not "miserably" failing. And with the high horse you keep riding when replying to me, check the plank in your eye before worrying about the speck in mine while discussing "narcissism". I also described my take on the OP subject here

 

I mentioned in the log for that FTF that I was 10 minutes late and met a police officer, which reinforces the "park hours" being important for the cache. The owner sent me an email telling me that it was good that I said it, and that they were happy that I had provided a reminder to not be in after hours. I apologized in my email back to them, and edited my log. I don't remember the cache, just the story. I'm sorry I didn't provide you the link to the log so you could cross-examine. Jeez, John. Take it easy, and stop reading into people's forum posts to get all fired up,

 

And to say I'm "changing stories to benefit [my] arguement, eh?"? Seriously, John, you watched too much of the Casey Anthony trial. I explained the same story with detail to put your mind at ease. You had a problem with the detail I provided (or apparent lack thereof), so I gave more context.

 

Cachers do have a right to post what they want. It just can't be offensive, abusive or profane. The owner can delete any log they want. Finders can appeal the log deletion. This thread is about opinion and well-intentioned guidance. It is hardly narcissistic to post "what you want". To "post what you want" in a demeaning, offensive, profane or abusive way is a sign of someone who doesn't have regard for the guidelines. Someone who posts that they made a find, either implied or clearly stated, after hours doesn't deserve the same treatment as someone who didn't find the cache, gave away crucial hide information, or is profane. If they are "gloating" (ie: Found it after the park was closed. No big deal, I didn't get caught. FTF goes to the most risky cacher, I guess...haha, suckers!), sure. Delete.

 

And combative? No. Defensive? Sure. Don called me stupid because he read my post incorrectly. You did the same, essentially. I didn't gloat. If you read it that way, I'm sorry. That is why I have provided more context--to help you understand my intent with what I posted. I was related to my previous post (as cited above). It gave context--a story about an after-hours find, and how it didn't turn SNAFU. Meanwhile, I have provided explanation of what I mean, and it still isn't good enough for you.

 

You clearly have experiences that guide your hard line opinion. You came here with them, and read my post in a way I did not intend. I hope that you can calm down and read my clarifications and move on. I stated a summary. Do you have issue with my stance? Again, my summary is in line with what many have said. What is going on here is that you admit that you interpreted my posts to be contradictory. I have discussed how they are not. Your interpretation is just that: YOURS.

 

I interpret your, and Don's replies to mine as combative. Before calling me stupid, narcissistic or whatever else you have for an insult, how about asking kindly for clarification instead of jumping all over someone?

 

Again, do you condone Don's calling of me stupid? Are you ok with calling me a failure? Speaking like that to someone isn't really kind, you know? (please don't make another comment about me "acting" wounded. Check yourself)

Edited July 7, 2011 by NeverSummer

[mresoteric]

The problem is not the original cache you talked about, which you seemed to have handled in a manner that made the CO happy.

 

What John is talking about is the fact that you admit to continuing to go into parks after posted hours even after having been called on it by a police officer and apparently having been taught not to do so while growing up.

[+GeoGeeBee]

The main thing to realize here is, how does a security guard or police officer know you are geocaching? You tell them that's how.

 

Really? You think a security guard or police officer isn't going to notice that you are walking in circles while staring at a GPSr?

 

If they know what geocaching is, they will know you are geocaching. If they don't, they are going to be very suspicious. If you try to tell them you are just out for an evening stroll to get some fresh air, they are going to know you are lying.

 

And when a cop (maybe not a security guard) knows you are lying to him, expect to be thoroughly questioned while he radios in for a complete check on your criminal history and warrant status.

 

You wouldn't be lying. You just not be forthcoming with the entire truth, which is what NeverSummer is saying. Don't just blurt out geocaching as the first thing you say.

 

Why?

 

Seriously. If I am geocaching, and a police officer asks me what I am doing, I am going to say "I'm geocaching."

 

Why on earth would I say anything else?

[+NeverSummer]

The problem is not the original cache you talked about, which you seemed to have handled in a manner that made the CO happy.

 

What John is talking about is the fact that you admit to continuing to go into parks after posted hours even after having been called on it by a police officer and apparently having been taught not to do so while growing up.

Taught? No. I happened to go sledding and stay "after hours". I lived in a nice, quaint suburb with cops that saw no harm in kids sledding on a weekend after hours. Each situation is different, and I happen to know the opinions of the police where grew up, and where I have lived through the years. It helps to know these things--not just for caching.

 

I don't "continue" to go into parks after hours. I have, out of nearly 800 caches, found a few (I can only recall 2 or 3) after hours--including the one I referenced above. I don't wave it in anyone's face. Rather, I provide context that people can, and do go into parks after hours for various reasons. To not acknowledge such is foolhardy. Does that make them "right" or condone their behavior? No. I even mention that many times in my posts. People SHOULD follow the rules. But some don't, and nobody here can stop them.

 

Does that mean we should stop providing guidance and try to encourage people to make the "right" decision? No.

 

The bottom line is, that in context with the OP's question, you have to ask what the issue is. Is it that they mentioned being in after hours intentionally? Or is it just being peeved that folks didn't wait for the morning when the park re-opened?

 

"So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit [sic] morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment? "

 

The right? Sure! ...but "should" you? That's where this discussion went. One can delete a log, yes. But there are many, many things that go into why you might want to, and if you really should bother with it.

 

Did they actually SAY they were in after hours? (or are you just guessing, based on notifications or that you, personally, didn't get the FTF and arrived at 8am on the dot?) How did they say it?

 

Are you just miffed because you didn't get a FTF, and they did...presumedly after hours?

 

Can the issue be solved by asking them to change their log to not say that they were in after hours? (as it can be a bad thing for land managers/owners to see repeated?)

 

Are they rubbing it in your face that they got a FTF after hours?

 

Are they known to do this regularly?

 

And so on. To jump all over me for discussing my experiences and mentioning that we all assume risks and are responsible for our own decisions to cache "after hours" is not ok. I used my story, with context, to explain the side of this situation that happens when someone just says "FTF. TFTC" You can't assume they did anything illegal. You don't know what happened, or where they were, or anything. Heck, you don't actually know they were there without checking a physical log. So, it doesn't make sense to get undies in a bundle if one gets a FTF on a cache published after a park has closed.

 

I happened to have a story that talked about going in *just* after a park closed. I met johnny law. The owner of the cache and the officer were not upset, and did a good job of "encouraging" the "right" behavior, based on the park hours. 'Nuf said. I assumed all risks of going in after hours, and had to deal with the consequences. (in this case, just a conversation with a cop about the park and what goes on there after hours)

 

I DON'T CONTINUE to break the law. And I DON'T gloat in logs about it. The fact that I told a story about something that happened to me to give context to the complexity (not "black and white") that goes into the OP's question was a problem for John and Don. They saw it as gloating, rather than just context.

 

They didn't bother to look at the rest of my posts, or at least decided that my story about getting a FTF trumped out any and every other comment I made about how we all "should" follow rules, guidelines and laws, but sometimes people make their own decisions about risk. It isn't the job of anyone here to tell a cacher how to cache. We can guide them and admonish as necessary, sure. But to get this bent out of shape about an admittance that I have been in a park after hours? Really? Is John going to keep me from walking a dog after hours? Is Don going to be there to kick me off the swings at :01? No. But this also DOESN'T mean that I should just disregard park hours, does it? No. And I get that. And I've never said otherwise.