Do i have the right to delete a log if the finder did not come at appropriate hours

July 2, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

1k · July 2, 2011

No, you can't. If they signed the logbook they can keep their online log, barring all the usual stuff (ie. foul language, spoilers).

July 2, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

There's not a clear "yes" or "no" for this one. As the CO, you CAN delete their log. Will they be angry? Yes. They did find it, after all. Deleting their log is deleting their find.

However, they didn't follow the rules of the area. Which not only puts your cache at risk, it also puts Geocaching in general in a bad light & puts other caches within that park at risk as well, not to mention future caches for the area. So, you wouldn't necessarily be in the wrong by deleting it.

Does the log include that they went to find it after dusk? You can email them asking them to edit the log (or else you'll have no choice but to delete it) to exclude the fact that they broke the rules of the area where the cache is, in order not to encourage the behavior in others.

Also, you don't *have* to honor FTF's..it's just a side game not recognized by Groundspeak.

July 2, 2011

Maybe it would be best to wait until the cache actually gets found before assuming that someone is going to break the park rules for a FTF. It looks like you made it very clear in the listing what the hours are. If someone does indeed go in after hours, I see nothing wrong with posting a note log reminding cachers in a firm but polite way to please respect the park hours in order to ensure that geocachers remains welcome there. Deleting logs is just going to cause a bunch of drama, and really, who needs that.

1k · July 2, 2011

^ What he said. Instead of waiting, just add a line in bold to the cache description reminding people to cache within the park's hours.

1.7k · July 2, 2011

Errm, if nobody broke park rules yet, your best bet is to ask the reviewer to publish it mid morning when the park opens, rather then just deleting a log. Deleting the log doesn't change the fact they broke the rules, however, publishing it in the day will make sure they can't*.

*They can, but nobody will have a reason too after the FTF...

8k · July 2, 2011

A cache owner can delete any log they want. Your question may better be what would happen if you deleted a log in this case. Cache owners should only delete logs that are bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate. Finders can always relog the find with a log that is not bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate.

Now if the finder believes there log was improperly deleted they can appeal to Groundspeak and the log may be reinstate (or the finder may be told to relog the cache with a log that is not inappropriate).

More information is in the knowledge books.

The specific topic of cachers who find caches during off hours (or who violate any laws and regulations when finding caches) has been brought up many times. There has not, to the best of my knowledge, ever been a response from Groundspeak as to whether or not these logs can be deleted. Some feel that boasting in a log that you broke the law is inappropriate and can be deleted. Other argue that it is just sharing the experience of finding the cache and therefore should not be deleted. It is generally considered that if the log is signed the find is not bogus so you can't say this is a bogus find because it was found off-hours. This may be a side effect of the logging of physical caches guidelines added when Additional Logging Requirements were nullified.

8.6k · July 2, 2011

Errm, if nobody broke park rules yet, your best bet is to ask the reviewer to publish it mid morning when the park opens, rather then just deleting a log. Deleting the log doesn't change the fact they broke the rules, however, publishing it in the day will make sure they can't*.

*They can, but nobody will have a reason too after the FTF...

Yes, I agree with Coldgears - Best suggestion, avoid the problem:

Put a brief explanation in 'Note to Reviewer' asking for publication near the park opening time.

MrsB

2.5k · July 2, 2011

If someone writes a log stating they broke rules set forth by a land manager, I'd say delete the log immediately and send the offending logger an email explaining that you don't want that land manager finding out that people are breaking their rules in order to find the cache. If you wait around for them to edit their own log, it is sitting out there for all to see: land managers AND other cachers who might decide that it's ok for them to break the rules, too. Also, that cacher might think twice about breaking the rules next time.

3.1k · July 2, 2011

Groundspeak guidelines allow you to delete any logs (FTF or otherwise) if they conflict with Groundspeak's Terms of Use Agreement.

Logs that fail to meet stated requirements (such as Found It logs by people who have never found the cache) or logs that conflict with our Terms of Use Agreement may be deleted.

From Section 4 of the Terms of Use Agreement:

You agree not to: ... (i) Violate any applicable local, state, national or international law.

So, if someone violates local laws regarding park hours, then you are entitled to delete their log.

As other posters here have noted, you probably should be proactive and note the park hours in your listing. And, as the guidelines point out, if you do decide that a log is inappropriate, then you might want to think twice before actually deleting it.

2k · July 2, 2011

folks in the Seattle area have asked Groundspeak on this question. They say NO. There have been a few FTFs that this issue got hotly debated and sometimes, it reached Groundspeak directly.

The owner can ask the finder to delete any reference to the offending time they went, but if the finder then relogs it as TFTC, it cannot be deleted. I imagine if the deleting continues, the finder can then ask GS to lock the log entry.

If it was me and it bothered me, as the CO, I would just ask the offender to change the log to not admit it there and move on with life.

Edited July 2, 2011 by lamoracke

July 2, 2011

You may want to put a caveat on the cache page, "Finds that are logged before or after park hours will be deleted" or something to that effect.

Just an idea....

July 2, 2011

Or don't publish the cache and you can definitely know that no one will break the rules of your cache.

Maybe try publishing the cache in a location that is accessible 24 hours a day, it takes creativity and patience, but it avoids these kind of headaches.

2.2k · July 2, 2011

looks like the FTF changed their log and resolved the issue.

Several different ways of handling it were suggested, all of them reasonable (except for the silly one about only hiding caches in locations that can be accessed 24 hours a day. That would eliminate all caches in many city, county and state parks.)

If a cacher mentions doing something illegal while finding one of my caches, I will delete the log and send an email asking them to relog without offending details. I'm not asking them not to DO it, just don't brag about it.

July 2, 2011

except for the silly one about only hiding caches in locations that can be accessed 24 hours a day. That would eliminate all caches in many city, county and state parks.

I don't see how it is silly. We are talking about the problem of having to make decisions about people acting outside of what we find appropriate. Having a realistic expectation of people and the fact that they may not do as they are told will help you avoid headaches.

Do you know how many times I have seen people walking a trail and when they see a "shortcut" they would rather bomb it through the forest than continue on the looping trail? Someone put the trail as a guideline and usually the CO wants us to follow the trail until we get to their cache. Unless you can be there to stop people, you have to expect that some are going to side step the rules.

If it bothers you that they do it, I am suggesting a solution for avoiding that.

If it only bothers you to hear about it, then I have nothing to help you with there. I don't know how to help the turning of a blind eye.

July 2, 2011

People find geocaches for their own personal fun. As long as they leave a good log i don't see much of a problem. cachers should be more aware tho. Like if theres security guards or camping sites close

Edited July 2, 2011 by Night_Hiker

22k · July 2, 2011

If someone writes a log stating they broke rules set forth by a land manager, I'd say delete the log immediately and send the offending logger an email explaining that you don't want that land manager finding out that people are breaking their rules in order to find the cache. If you wait around for them to edit their own log, it is sitting out there for all to see: land managers AND other cachers who might decide that it's ok for them to break the rules, too. Also, that cacher might think twice about breaking the rules next time.

yep.

5k · July 2, 2011

People find geocaches for their own personal fun. As long as they leave a good log i don't see much of a problem. cachers should be more aware tho. Like if theres security guards or camping sites close

Personal fun, or good logs, does not trump the land managers posted ours of operation. Trespassing, as long as there's no guard present, is not okay. That's like saying that it's okay to run a red light, as long as a cop isn't looking.

2.2k · July 2, 2011

except for the silly one about only hiding caches in locations that can be accessed 24 hours a day. That would eliminate all caches in many city, county and state parks.

I don't see how it is silly. We are talking about the problem of having to make decisions about people acting outside of what we find appropriate. Having a realistic expectation of people and the fact that they may not do as they are told will help you avoid headaches.

Do you know how many times I have seen people walking a trail and when they see a "shortcut" they would rather bomb it through the forest than continue on the looping trail? Someone put the trail as a guideline and usually the CO wants us to follow the trail until we get to their cache. Unless you can be there to stop people, you have to expect that some are going to side step the rules.

If it bothers you that they do it, I am suggesting a solution for avoiding that.

If it only bothers you to hear about it, then I have nothing to help you with there. I don't know how to help the turning of a blind eye.

2.2k · July 2, 2011

OK, I misunderstood you. You're suggesting a solution for avoiding the problem if it bothers you. I still don't quite agree, but the suggestion is not silly given the context you intended.

1.4k · July 3, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

I would suggest that in the reviewer note when submitting the cache you explain the problem and let the reviewer know what is going on. He most likely will publish it during daylight hrs...... BTW you are not in Southwest Washington are you specifically Vancouver, Washington ????? :laughing:

Scubasonic

Edited July 3, 2011 by Scubasonic

July 3, 2011

I'd delete and offer them the opportunity to relog without the part about breaking park rules. I'm pretty sure Groundspeak would back you on it.

3.2k · July 3, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

1.2k · July 3, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

DING DING DING, we have a winner.

July 3, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

Huh? Your saying that following the law is an ALR? If the CO is stating the park hours its basically saying come at this time and nowhere near to an ALR.

1k · July 4, 2011

Your saying that following the law is an ALR?

Yes, it technically would be. The CO can say whatever they want on the cache listing, but saying "come during park hours" is no different from "you must arrive in a minivan" or "you must find the cache while wearing your hat backwards".

July 4, 2011

Your saying that following the law is an ALR?

Yes, it technically would be. The CO can say whatever they want on the cache listing, but saying "come during park hours" is no different from "you must arrive in a minivan" or "you must find the cache while wearing your hat backwards".

In common sense, following the law would be the right thing to do. If the listing says "Don't do drugs while finding the cache" it would be different than the ones stated up there right? Its common sense.

3.1k · July 4, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

Groundspeak guidelines allow you to delete any logs that conflict with Groundspeak's Terms of Use Agreement.

Logs that fail to meet stated requirements (such as Found It logs by people who have never found the cache) or logs that conflict with our Terms of Use Agreement may be deleted.

From Section 4 of the Terms of Use Agreement:

You agree not to: ... (i) Violate any applicable local, state, national or international law.

So, if someone violates local laws regarding park hours, then you're entitled to delete their log...at least until they remove their comments about violating local laws.

July 4, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

DING DING DING, we have a winner.

Not quite. It might be an ALR if he didn't allow a find log at all. But asking him to remove the illegal activity when logging his find should be fine.

1k · July 4, 2011

In common sense, following the law would be the right thing to do. If the listing says "Don't do drugs while finding the cache" it would be different than the ones stated up there right? Its common sense.

Common sense? Where do you draw the line? What if I didn't pick up after my dog while finding the cache? Or if I parked my hypothetical car more that 30 cms from the curb, or if I skated in a park that doesn't allow skateboarding? Are you gonna delete my log for that?

2.5k · July 4, 2011

In common sense, following the law would be the right thing to do. If the listing says "Don't do drugs while finding the cache" it would be different than the ones stated up there right? Its common sense.
Common sense? Where do you draw the line? What if I didn't pick up after my dog while finding the cache? Or if I parked my hypothetical car more that 30 cms from the curb, or if I skated in a park that doesn't allow skateboarding? Are you gonna delete my log for that?

If I thought the concerned land manager would read your log about how you disobeyed their rules while looking for my cache? You betcha!

July 4, 2011

In common sense, following the law would be the right thing to do. If the listing says "Don't do drugs while finding the cache" it would be different than the ones stated up there right? Its common sense.

Common sense? Where do you draw the line? What if I didn't pick up after my dog while finding the cache? Or if I parked my hypothetical car more that 30 cms from the curb, or if I skated in a park that doesn't allow skateboarding? Are you gonna delete my log for that?

Well, doing the things you stated above are independent from geocaching. Coming before and after park hours to FIND a geocache is part of finding a cache and gives others an impression that geocaching is bad. If you skated in a park when the park said no skating, would it give the CO, and geocaching a bad name? Do you see the difference?

1k · July 4, 2011

Well, doing the things you stated above are independent from geocaching. Coming before and after park hours to FIND a geocache is part of finding a cache and gives others an impression that geocaching is bad. If you skated in a park when the park said no skating, would it give the CO, and geocaching a bad name? Do you see the difference?

If I mentioned it in my log, it would.

July 4, 2011

Well, doing the things you stated above are independent from geocaching. Coming before and after park hours to FIND a geocache is part of finding a cache and gives others an impression that geocaching is bad. If you skated in a park when the park said no skating, would it give the CO, and geocaching a bad name? Do you see the difference?

If I mentioned it in my log, it would.

WHy would you?

1k · July 4, 2011

Because I like to leave nice long logs depicting every single detail of my trip. If I saw how something like that could be relevant in my log, I'll include it.

2.5k · July 4, 2011

Because I like to leave nice long logs depicting every single detail of my trip. If I saw how something like that could be relevant in my log, I'll include it.

I'd delete such a log without batting an eye. Why? You might see including how you felt you were above the rules in your log as "relevant in my log" but I would see it as a threat to the cache's longevity. Cache Permanence is also in the guidelines. If you want to brag about how you were skating in a no-skating park, do it on a skateboarding forum, not my cache page.

If someone writes a log stating they broke rules set forth by a land manager, I'd say delete the log immediately and send the offending logger an email explaining that you don't want that land manager finding out that people are breaking their rules in order to find the cache. If you wait around for them to edit their own log, it is sitting out there for all to see: land managers AND other cachers who might decide that it's ok for them to break the rules, too. Also, that cacher might think twice about breaking the rules next time.

5.7k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

No. They broke park rules because of a cache that you placed. They took a chance just to get a FTF.

22k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

No. They broke park rules because of a cache that you placed. They took a chance just to get a FTF.

The perfect excuse to tell the cops.

8k · July 4, 2011

Some people are missing the point of the ALR rule.

The ALR guidelines were changed for one purpose only, that was to get rid of additional logging requirements that had been allowed up till that time in one form or another. It used to be the case that cache owners could request that cache finder perform some sort of task in order to log a find. That tasked often involve writing something particular in the log or writing the log in a certain style. One could certainly write on their cache page "Don't visit the park after hours", but this would not likely be considered an ALR. For one thing, how was the cache owner going to determine the park was visit after hours?

Of course if the finder posted "I was in the park after hours" you might suppose they were and delete their log. And there were some occasion when the cache was published after hours and the FTF showed up a few minutes later - it may pretty obvious they found the cache after hours. But there is no evidence that TPTB would consider deleting these logs ALRs - particularly if the cache owners allow the find to be relogged without the incriminating evidence.

The change to guidelines for ending ALRs used the unfortunate statement that "once the physical log is signed you can log a find online". This has led some to interpret that cache owners may not delete logs so long as the physical is signed. However cache owners can and should delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate. The Groundspeak Terms or Use has been quoted as a source for determining if a log is inappropriate. In particular you agree not to promote or provide instructional information about illegal activities. Mentioning that you ignored park rules in order to find the cache (or to get a FTF) could be construed as promoting this activity.

2.5k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?
No. They broke park rules because of a cache that you placed. They took a chance just to get a FTF.

And this post right here is an example of what happens when someone doesn't read an entire post. MPH, you do realize now that it has been shown that the guidelines support such a deletion, right? <_<

3.2k · July 4, 2011

Not that I agree with breaking park rules, but isn't that between the cacher and the park? If the CO tries to enforce the park's rules then isn't it an ALR, which is not acceptable per the guidelines?

Huh? Your saying that following the law is an ALR? If the CO is stating the park hours its basically saying come at this time and nowhere near to an ALR.

Not at all. I'm saying that for the Cache Owner to project himself into the role of a Park Administrator is wrong. He can certainly note rules on the page, but it is not his job to enforce them.

July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

If logger stated they broke the speed limit going to the cache, would you delete that log?

2.5k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?
If logger stated they broke the speed limit going to the cache, would you delete that log?

If the land the cache was hidden on was managed by an entity where speeding would make a difference in their permission? Yes.

If the cache were hidden with permission of a community association, and you talked about how you were speeding through that community, I'd delete your log. If you posted about how you sped through the parking lot at the local playground where the cache was hidden, yes, I'd delete your log.

In general, land managers are concerned with what you are doing on their property. If you break the rules/law on that property, that is when they will become concerned. That is when I'd delete your log.

With the option of relogging without bragging about/condoning such activities, of course.

Fortunately, most cachers around here aren't foolish enough to brag about their illegal activities, so I haven't had to delete any such logs.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Too Tall John

6.1k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?
If logger stated they broke the speed limit going to the cache, would you delete that log?
If the land the cache was hidden on was managed by an entity where speeding would make a difference in their permission? Yes.
If the cache were hidden with permission of a community association, and you talked about how you were speeding through that community, I'd delete your log. If you posted about how you sped through the parking lot at the local playground where the cache was hidden, yes, I'd delete your log.

In general, land managers are concerned with what you are doing on their property. If you break the rules/law on that property, that is when they will become concerned. That is when I'd delete your log.

With the option of relogging without bragging about/condoning such activities, of course.

Fortunately, most cachers around here aren't foolish enough to brag about their illegal activities, so I haven't had to delete any such logs.

+3.1

That's what I was thinking. If the lawbreaking could have a negative impact on permissions or land manager impressions of the game, the online log should be removed. Speeding enroute on a major highway would be different than if the cacher mentioned that they did 60 through a park where the posted limit is 15 or so, or smoking the tires in the parking lot. Although it is mainly between the cacher and the land manager, the cache hider is being dragged into the situation as a third party involuntarily, as they are the one that invited the other cachers.

Edited July 4, 2011 by 4wheelin_fool

5.7k · July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?
No. They broke park rules because of a cache that you placed. They took a chance just to get a FTF.
And this post right here is an example of what happens when someone doesn't read an entire post. MPH, you do realize now that it has been shown that the guidelines support such a deletion, right?

I know that the olny purpose the finders were there was looking for that cache. Delete some law breakers log, I would expect to see my cache get muggled. I know how silly geocachers can be.

July 4, 2011

So, this is the problem with getting a cache published at near dusk. Some FtF hounds can't wait unfit morning to get the FtF, as park hours are 8am to dusk. Now if the FTF logs the find while breaking the park rule, do i have the right to remove their comment?

If logger stated they broke the speed limit going to the cache, would you delete that log?

That has nothing to do with the actual hide where park hours do.

3.2k · July 4, 2011

I think some people are missing some of the posts here.

Deleting the log because it talks about breaking the law is probably OK, but still questionable.

Putting in your description that you will delete any logs that mention they were there after hours is stating an ALR and, as such, would probably get push back from a reviewer that was paying attention.

6.1k · July 4, 2011

I think some people are missing some of the posts here.

Deleting the log because it talks about breaking the law is probably OK, but still questionable.

Putting in your description that you will delete any logs that mention they were there after hours is stating an ALR and, as such, would probably get push back from a reviewer that was paying attention.

Well, they could write "if your logs indicate that you violated the TOU, they will be deleted".

I dont think that would be an ALR, but it's up go TPTB to decide that.

5k · July 5, 2011

I think some people are missing some of the posts here.

Deleting the log because it talks about breaking the law is probably OK, but still questionable.

Putting in your description that you will delete any logs that mention they were there after hours is stating an ALR and, as such, would probably get push back from a reviewer that was paying attention.

How is stating that you will exercise your responsibility to delete inappropriate logs an Additional Logging Requirement?

15.3k · July 5, 2011

Deleting the log because it talks about breaking the law is probably OK, but still questionable.

Yep. Deleting the log might antagonize someone who has demonstrated (1) that they know where your cache is, and (2) they have limited respect for rules and laws.

FWIW, I've had success pointing out the limited hours of the location, and asking the finder to edit their log so as not to encourage others to violate those hours.

Do i have the right to delete a log if the finder did not come at appropriate hours

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