MINGO in jeopardy?

3.6k · January 10, 2012

Mango will be archived anyhow, as the hole is filled with cement, and the reviewer disallows page edits to reflect a micro (which would be more suitable for the location anyway). The land owner could be contacted to have the cement removed, but encase the cache in cement instead.

Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted.

The appropriate thing to do is to contact the owner of the fenced in property 3 feet away and let him know what it is. He is most likely the one who is muggling it, as he is not aware of it's significance.

I kinda suspected that when I looked at some of the gallery photos since it looks like that fence might be the corner of a large plot of land enclosed with a fence. However, if you look at the location with Google Earth you'll see that the fence is between a little dirt road, County Road K, and the on-ramp to the nearby interstate. I'm not sure what the actual purpose of the fence is, but it appears that both sides of the fence are under the jurisdiction of the county or state highway department.

Fences are require by law for freeways to help keep animals out of the area. Every freeways got a fence both side of the roadway. It also keep people from getting off and on a freeway without a off or on ramp.I see a few place where its allowed without a off or on ramp but its out in the middle of nowhere with next to no traffic at all. I wonder if the farmer nearby is tried of people using that large spot to the west as a turn around for large rigs. Or driving on his land to turn around their 5th wheels trailers or large trailers.

January 10, 2012

"Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted."

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

2.6k · January 10, 2012

"Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted."

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

Oldest I could find

1.2k · January 10, 2012

Time to archive it for sure. Not original, owner no longer caches, type of cache violates the guidelines, users have put replacement caches down - we can go on. Historic value... haha ya right, anything geocaching can have the word historic attached to it! Are we that delusional (for lack of a better word) peoples?

I'm pretty sure that whenever anyone refers to the historical significance of Mingo they're doing so in the context of the history of geocache. The argument that Mingo has no historic significance because it was placed 11 years ago on a planet that is estimated to be around 4.5 billions old is rather absurd.

No, my fella New York friend, I did not make that argument - the argument that the game of geocaching itself has any significant historic value.

1.2k · January 10, 2012

Fences are require by law for freeways to help keep animals out of the area. Every freeways got a fence both side of the roadway.

Not in New York!

14k · January 10, 2012

"Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted."

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

Yes it is. Mingo is disabled. All of the oldest cache lists I've ever seen make a distinction between Archived and Non-Archived and a caches place on the list does not change when it's temporarily disabled.

According the this page (http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=958da935-3f79-4eb4-b6bf-849d20039244)...

GC12 is second after Mingo (in Kansas). After that, there's "Beverly" (Illinois) , "Lane Cove" (Australia), "The Spot" (New York), GC46 (New Zealand), "Arikaree" (also in Kansas), "Beaver Cache" (Georgia), GC43 (Ireland), then GC16 (Oregon). If GC12 were ever archived, a PNW cache wouldn't even make it to the oldest top 8.

Frankly, I'm glad that Mingo is still the oldest geocache, only because Groundspeak HQ, the Original Stash plaque, and the former APE cache, and GC12 are all located in the PNW and Mingo as the oldest caches serves as a reminder that Seattle really *is not" the center of the universe.

4.2k · January 10, 2012

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

...and there was a collective "huh?" from both sides of the aisle...

7.4k · January 10, 2012

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

As others have indicated, that is not correct. Remember that when Jeremy first imported all of the original caches from Mike Teague's web listing, he added Washington first followed by Oregon and Colorado, then the rest of the states in alphabetical order, then other nations. This gives the early Washington and Oregon caches artificially low IDs in the database. In general, you have to look at the hide date of the first 70 or so caches in the DB rather than the GC code to get an accurate idea of the order of placement.

1.2k · January 10, 2012

Mingo is NOT the oldest active geocache in the world. The oldest active geocaches in the world are located in the Pacific Northwest.

As others have indicated, that is not correct. Remember that when Jeremy first imported all of the original caches from Mike Teague's web listing, he added Washington first followed by Oregon and Colorado, then the rest of the states in alphabetical order, then other nations. This gives the early Washington and Oregon caches artificially low IDs in the database. In general, you have to look at the hide date of the first 70 or so caches in the DB rather than the GC code to get an accurate idea of the order of placement.

Why do so many make such a big deal of it? Our history is in some aspects not pretty, and in reality should be forgotten. Geocaching's motto should be "live for today!" (grin} I like what the OWNER of Mingo just wrote yesterday:

I will try to get out to Mingo and repair the cache in the next week or so.

On a personal note, I think a lot of people are taking geocaching way too serious. This started out as a "hey do you think we could hid something and have someone find it with only a GPS" idea on the news groups. It turned out to be fun and spread. Now we have too many rules and arguments about the size and types of caches, is it the "original" container or not. In my opinion, if you find the location, you can log it on the website (and don't start the virtual cache argument with me). Since this one is getting vandalized so often, you have to make exceptions.

Enough of my rant, Mingo will return.

EDIT: fix my typos (I am the typo king)

Edited January 10, 2012 by Frank Broughton

14k · January 10, 2012

Time to archive it for sure. Not original, owner no longer caches, type of cache violates the guidelines, users have put replacement caches down - we can go on. Historic value... haha ya right, anything geocaching can have the word historic attached to it! Are we that delusional (for lack of a better word) peoples?

I'm pretty sure that whenever anyone refers to the historical significance of Mingo they're doing so in the context of the history of geocache. The argument that Mingo has no historic significance because it was placed 11 years ago on a planet that is estimated to be around 4.5 billions old is rather absurd.

No, my fella New York friend, I did not make that argument - the argument that the game of geocaching itself has any significant historic value.

Then I don't know who you're referring to when you label "we" as delusional. We can play semantics with the definition of history, but it still sounds like you're taking the use of the phrase "historical value" outside the scope of the history of geocaching. Geocaching has only been around a minuscule amount of time relative to the history of life on earth or the history of our solar system I don't think anyone is arguing that anything about geocaching has any historical value or historical significance outside the context of the history of geocaching. One may have nothing more than a "meh" to say about any specific geocaching event or a specific cache but that doesn't change my (and I'm sure there are others) that there are some events which have taken place or the existence of some geocaches which hold more significance than others. Some consider a cache that has been active longer than any other to be significant and I don't think it's delusional at attribute some significance to that fact.

January 10, 2012

Frankly, I'm glad that Mingo is still the oldest geocache, only because Groundspeak HQ, the Original Stash plaque, and the former APE cache, and GC12 are all located in the PNW and Mingo as the oldest caches serves as a reminder that Seattle really *is not" the center of the universe.

Some roadside in Kansas is not either, but I'm kind surprised someone from New York would have any insecurities about it.

14k · January 11, 2012

Frankly, I'm glad that Mingo is still the oldest geocache, only because Groundspeak HQ, the Original Stash plaque, and the former APE cache, and GC12 are all located in the PNW and Mingo as the oldest caches serves as a reminder that Seattle really *is not" the center of the universe.

Some roadside in Kansas is not either, but I'm kind surprised someone from New York would have any insecurities about it.

Not insecure at all. It just that the Pacific Northwest is already home to Groundspeak HQ, the original stash plaque, *was* home to the Triad before the APE cache was archived, and the second oldest active oldest geocache. It's also the only place in the world with an official geocaching block party (with a unique icon). Of the 18 available cache type icons three of them are for specific locations, all in the PNW. For the "Special" categories of souvenirs, of the 11 available souvenirs, 9 of them are/were only available for those that visited locations in the Pacific Northwest. The other two are location non-specific. The fact is, there are numerous icons, souvenirs, events, and caches that are easily accessible for those that happen to live in the Pacific Northwest but everyone else in the world would have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to obtain them. Then the oldest active geocache in the world is in jeopardy and lots of PNW cachers are saying "what's the big deal...it's only a cache". It's not all that surprising because if it were archived, the oldest active geocache would be, let me see...in the pacific northwest.

1.2k · January 11, 2012

Ya but they have to put up with tons of rain and a good assortment of political malcontents, so they deserve all the perks they can get.....

January 11, 2012

Ya but they have to put up with tons of rain and a good assortment of political malcontents, so they deserve all the perks they can get.....

At 944mm (37.17 in.), in reality, the city receives less precipitation annually than New York City (1201 mm, 47.28 in.), Atlanta (1290 mm, 50.79 in.), Boston (1055 mm, 41.53 in.), Baltimore (1038 mm, 40.87 in.), Portland, Maine (1128 mm, 44.41 in.), Jacksonville, Florida (1304 mm, 51.34 in.), and most cities on the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. Seattle was also not listed in a study that revealed the 10 rainiest cities in the continental United States. Most of the precipitation falls as drizzle or light rain. Thunderstorms are rare. Seattle reports thunder on just seven days per year[69] For comparison, Fort Myers, Florida reports thunder on 93 days per year Kansas City 52, and New York City 25.

Average political malcontents per acre in the PNW: .005. Average political malcontents per acre on the Eastern Seaboard: 500.

9.3k · January 11, 2012

1)The original cache and logbook are gone.

Kewl! The cache is not in significant disrepair.

2)The owner does not cache anymore, and logs in every few months or so.

Good to see the owner still checks in. Otherwise, folks might think he dropped of the face of the earth.

3)The community has placed a few throwdown bison tube caches as a replacement.

Neat! The community is willing to maintain it.

4)As a buried cache without any type of permission, it does violate the guidelines.

Glad it's grandfathered. Otherwise, it might be in violation.

So, to summarize:

Mingo is still viable.

The owner is still active.

The community is willing to maintain it.

And, it's in compliance with the guidelines.

Thanx for the vote of confidence!

Mingo has 447 favorites versus 81 on CC31. Why?

I can't read the minds of those 447 folks, but maybe it has something to do with Mingo being the oldest active cache?

I seem to recall reading a thread in the forums where many folks expressed their belief that adding their monikers to the oldest active cache in the world carried some degree of significance for them. Could that have something to do with Mingo beating CC31 five to one? I suppose you could initiate an email campaign and ask those folks why they awarded favorite points to Mingo, if your curiosity is getting to you. I imagine, were I to make the journey to Mingo, that would be why I awarded it a favorite point.

3.6k · January 11, 2012

Ya but they have to put up with tons of rain and a good assortment of political malcontents, so they deserve all the perks they can get.....

Oh the sarcasm!! Thank you so much.

January 11, 2012

[ Of the 18 available cache type icons three of them are for specific locations, all in the PNW. For the "Special" categories of souvenirs, of the 11 available souvenirs, 9 of them are/were only available for those that visited locations in the Pacific Northwest. The other two are location non-specific. The fact is, there are numerous icons, souvenirs, events, and caches that are easily accessible for those that happen to live in the Pacific Northwest but everyone else in the world would have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to obtain them. Then the oldest active geocache in the world is in jeopardy and lots of PNW cachers are saying "what's the big deal...it's only a cache". It's not all that surprising because if it were archived, the oldest active geocache would be, let me see...in the pacific northwest.

I'm just not seeing the "lots of PNW cachers" you are referring to. Maybe not insecurity, but it seems that you are expressing some icon and souvenir envy.

I bet you have some great hikes in New York State. I try not to let that bother me when I'm hiking in our neck of the woods. But you know what really bites? I have to spend 1000s of dollars on a trip to Paris if I want to see the Mona Lisa. It's just not fair!

9.3k · January 11, 2012

Historic value... haha ya right, anything geocaching can have the word historic attached to it!

I suppose that's true. I could run over to my local Wally World, spew out a film can and tell everyone it has historic value. But simply attaching a word does not necessarily make the attachment valid. Those who understand the term "historic" would quickly realize that I was prevaricating. However, if I were to adopt the oldest active geocache on the planet, and tell folks that it had historic value, most would recognize that I was being truthful. Any time one talks history, one needs to put it in context. For instance, in a classic automobile forum, if I said a Hudson Hornet had historical significance, I might be laughed out of the forums. But if I suggested the very first Hudson Twenty to roll off the line had historical significance, the support would be almost overwhelming.

(I say "almost" because, like this forum, there are always a handful of mooks who will argue any point, not because they believe the nonsense they are spewing, but rather, simply to hear themselves type)

Though automobiles have only been around for a tick of the human clock, once put into context, it becomes valid.

The same is true for Geocaching. Our history begins in May, 2000 and extends to present day.

Those geocaching related activities that occured near the May 2000 end of the scale could be said to have historical significance.

Are we that delusional (for lack of a better word) peoples?

Only if we try to convince ourselves that there cannot be history in an 11 year old game.

14k · January 11, 2012

[ Of the 18 available cache type icons three of them are for specific locations, all in the PNW. For the "Special" categories of souvenirs, of the 11 available souvenirs, 9 of them are/were only available for those that visited locations in the Pacific Northwest. The other two are location non-specific. The fact is, there are numerous icons, souvenirs, events, and caches that are easily accessible for those that happen to live in the Pacific Northwest but everyone else in the world would have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to obtain them. Then the oldest active geocache in the world is in jeopardy and lots of PNW cachers are saying "what's the big deal...it's only a cache". It's not all that surprising because if it were archived, the oldest active geocache would be, let me see...in the pacific northwest.

I'm just not seeing the "lots of PNW cachers" you are referring to. Maybe not insecurity, but it seems that you are expressing some icon and souvenir envy.

You're reading more into what wrote than what is on your screen (perhaps I am as well). I was simply stating the facts.

I bet you have some great hikes in New York State. I try not to let that bother me when I'm hiking in our neck of the woods. But you know what really bites? I have to spend 1000s of dollars on a trip to Paris if I want to see the Mona Lisa. It's just not fair!

Oh come on. It's only a painting :-) and, in any case, I prefer Rome.

2.2k · January 11, 2012

Seems to me so many of the differing opinions stem from the debate over what exactly is a "cache".

Is the container the cache? If so then a throwdown micro is not Mingo and Mingo is just another lame roadside cache like thousands of others.

Is the cache listing the cache? If so, the Mingo is the oldest active (albeit disabled) cache.

Do I think there is some significance to Mingo because it is the oldest active listing? Yes. As stated by others, history is relative and just because this is something from 2000 doesn't make it any less historical [to out hobby] because it isn't old compared to the castles of Europe.

I am working out my travel route to Geowoodstock and on the way home I altered the route slightly to look for Mingo -- providing it is active again by that point. I'm also going to be staying near Beverly (GC28) on the way down and will make an extra effort to look for it too -- that just happened to be a happy coincidence though.

Do I do it because it is a caching pilgrammage? Nope, I do it because I like to see "Oldest Caches Found" on my statistics change once in awhile, to set a new benchmark for "oldest". Mingo is only significant because I know, if I find it, it will remain first on that list forever -- there is nothing I can do to find an older listing.

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to). That smacks of personal opinion and is something that should be discouraged. Hey, if there are additional guidelines which apply to whatever cache currently holds the "oldest active" title, that's fine but we should know about them. Unlike the APE caches, I am not aware of any.

4.2k · January 11, 2012

So... any updates on the actual status of Mingo?

I'll check back after I have me this historic cup of coffee- it was made yesterday so by home-brewed coffee standards it's filled to the rim with heritage!

1.2k · January 11, 2012

Historic value... haha ya right, anything geocaching can have the word historic attached to it!

(I say "almost" because, like this forum, there are always a handful of mooks who will argue any point, not because they believe the nonsense they are spewing, but rather, simply to hear themselves type)

Okay you win, I am just one of the mooks... :unsure: But consider how many words YOU type.... hahaha who be a mook? I have the hearing of an eighty year old, hard to hear my typing.

On a serious note, I really think we do as the owner of the cache in question has said, we take this "WAY TOO SERIOUS!"

1.2k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to). That smacks of personal opinion and is something that should be discouraged. Hey, if there are additional guidelines which apply to whatever cache currently holds the "oldest active" title, that's fine but we should know about them. Unlike the APE caches, I am not aware of any.

Interesting to say the least... what could be the reason besides cause he can?????

1.8k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to).

I didn't realize that was happening. It is?

2.2k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to).

I didn't realize that was happening. It is?

On Dec 19 Volunteer reviewer Hemlock said this:

Post

Reviewer Note12/19/2011

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

I think that's what people are referring to. I don't think it's clear, however, if the reviewer would prevent the cache owner from editing the cache listing and declaring it a micro.

2k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to).

I didn't realize that was happening. It is?

On Dec 19 Volunteer reviewer Hemlock said this:

Post

Reviewer Note12/19/2011

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

I think that's what people are referring to. I don't think it's clear, however, if the reviewer would prevent the cache owner from editing the cache listing and declaring it a micro.

Am no expert, but I think this viewpoint from this reviewer is not supported in the guidelines if you ask me. Why wouldn't an owner of a non-ape cache not be allowed to change their own container size if they want.

2k · January 11, 2012

3)The community has placed a few throwdown bison tube caches as a replacement.

Neat! The community is willing to maintain it.

You hate micros, or at least they don't satisfy your delicate caching sensabilities, yet you are just fine with random cachers tossing them out as replacements for regular caches?

The community isn't maintaining Mingo. The community doesn't like wasting a trip to mingo only to find they have to log a DNF so they toss out bison tubes in order to claim a find on Mingo, no matter how pathetic that find might be.

However, I have see talk of a few people willing to replace the missing container with a comparable one, which would actually qualify as community maintenance in my book. But throwdowns are a far cry from community maintenance.

The problem with replacing with a comparable container or any other for that matter is it has been shown that no matter what you put there it's going to go missing again.

Mingo has run its course. Mingo is dead. What exists right now is some kind of FrankenCache that people refuse to let rest in peace.

6.1k · January 11, 2012

The question is, who muggled it and why?

It had been doing fine for a very long time until it went missing. The owner had not logged in for awhile, so it was replaced by someone in the community with a close replica. That went missing also. Next, the hole was filled up with cement, and a metal bar inserted. However, it was not done by the DOT or anyone else in any official capacity.

-It is in the middle of nowhere, so it's unlikely that it was accidentally discovered by a muggle. An accidental discovery usually means they don't return either. In this case they drove all the way out there 3 times, with the third time carrying cement.

-It is not on, or near any property owned by any landowner who may have an interest in it.

-The DOT says it's fine and has given permission.

-The person who stole it, is certainly a cacher. However, they have gone out of their way to hide thier identity and motive by placing cement and a metal stake in the middle of it. Some muggles leave nasty messages, and some will leave evidence of their destruction. This person is trying to make it appear that some official worker did it. Sort of like saying, "I don't have anything personal against the cache owner, but it has to go". So it appears that the motivation behind it could be because it is buried.

-No other caches in the general area have gone missing. The target is this cache. If it was an anti-caching group they would have taken others also.

-It's buried and historical. Perhaps someone does not like the fact that a famous cache which draws cachers from all parts of the country is buried. Perhaps it sets a poor example. People see the hide and go and return to their area and copy the idea.

-Who would have motive? Perhaps someone who has had their buried cache turned down for publication, or archived after the fact. Or perhaps someone who has published plenty of buried caches, only having to archive plenty later, upsetting many.

Rewarding a cache thief by archiving the listing is not productive at all, and would only encourage more elsewhere. I dont see why the cache owner cannot edit their listing to allow a micro to be placed. Whoever has gone out of their way to destroy the cache would certainly be upset if it just continued on.

Is this a precedent? Historic cache sizes cannot be changed now? Why?

I would like to see it restored, but if that is not feasable then I don't think that the thief should be rewarded. Why not allow a micro?

2k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to).

I didn't realize that was happening. It is?

On Dec 19 Volunteer reviewer Hemlock said this:

Post

Reviewer Note12/19/2011

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

I think that's what people are referring to. I don't think it's clear, however, if the reviewer would prevent the cache owner from editing the cache listing and declaring it a micro.

Am no expert, but I think this viewpoint from this reviewer is not supported in the guidelines if you ask me. Why wouldn't an owner of a non-ape cache not be allowed to change their own container size if they want.

If I'm not mistaken the CO did NOT change the size to micro. He just wanted to accept the micro throwdowns in lieu of the regular container until he could do maintenance.

I'm not Hemlock, but I am guessing if the CO had actually changed the size to micro, he'd have been fine. I'm sure that once the CO gets out and does maintenance that he will unlock the page.

I THINK what the reviewer is saying is that the listing states a particular size and the cache should match that size. If you want to change Mingo to a micro, fine, make the change to the listing.

But if you want to keep it as a regular, then disable your cache when you know it to be missing until such time that you can do maintenance and replace with another cache the same size as listed.

4.2k · January 11, 2012

STUFF.

Okay, you say "historic" I say "noteworthy". Let's not get tangled up in words and semantics. Let's agree on something between EARTHSHATTERING and MEH. Or let's just call it what it is: oldest active listing. That's pretty impartial, isn't it?

Now how does that change how this cache should be handled?

8.4k · January 11, 2012

Wow. What a debate.

I would say Mingo needs to be archived until such time as the owner can restore it if it's not restored within the reviewer's maintenance guidelines.

I'm glad I was there way before all this drama. Mingo was a nice cache experience. I would hate to see it die, but why prolong the agony?

I spent a sunset there after a particularly bad storm. The sunset was spectacular from there after the storm. It may just be a roadside cache, but it was unique.

January 11, 2012

I'm kind of curious why all of this began with Hemlock and not with OldCU whom is the reviewer for Kansas? I guess any reviewer has jurisdiction over anywhere but seems OldCU should be the main one in the loop and issuing the requests. Just curiosity?

9.3k · January 11, 2012

But consider how many words YOU type, who be a mook?

Oh, of that I have no doubt! :lol:

I am most definitely a "mook".

you are just fine with random cachers tossing out <micros> as replacements for regular caches?

My personal opinion? Size is irrelevant. I am not OK with throw downs. A throw down implies a replacement without the owner's knowledge and/or express consent. I see that as a bad thing. If a cache is missing, suck it up and take the well earned DNF.

But, my personal opinion has little to do with this cache getting replaced by a member of the community when it went missing. Spewing out throw downs, as wrong as I think it is, still qualifies as community maintenance, of sorts. It's not the resolution I would prefer, but I have no dog in this fight.

If Mingo were mine, and I did not live close by, I would adopt it out to someone who did live close by, with the request that they move it a few hundred feet away from the original location, to see if the tampering continues.

Let's agree on something between EARTHSHATTERING and MEH.

Now how does that change how this cache should be handled?

Not sure it does. Naturally, I have my own personal bias. I want to see Mingo continue. Looking at all the drama on the cache page, I can say with some degree of certainty, that if this had been a two year old film can in a Wally World hedge, Groundspeak would have archived it faster than Rosie O'Donnell gnawing through a carton of Ben & Jerry's. Since Groundspeak has not archived it, I'm thinking that someone further up the food chain would also like to see Mingo continue, so long as it's possible.

But your question was, "Should the oldest cache receive special treatment?".

Other than my personal preferences, I really don't have a good answer for that. :unsure:

6.1k · January 11, 2012

If I'm not mistaken the CO did NOT change the size to micro. He just wanted to accept the micro throwdowns in lieu of the regular container until he could do maintenance.

I'm not Hemlock, but I am guessing if the CO had actually changed the size to micro, he'd have been fine. I'm sure that once the CO gets out and does maintenance that he will unlock the page.

I THINK what the reviewer is saying is that the listing states a particular size and the cache should match that size. If you want to change Mingo to a micro, fine, make the change to the listing.

But if you want to keep it as a regular, then disable your cache when you know it to be missing until such time that you can do maintenance and replace with another cache the same size as listed.

It seems pretty clear that it's not a page edit that it was disabled for, rather the reviewer injecting his own personal bias to have it restored to a regular. Everyone else can edit their cache sizes as needed except for Mingo.

With cement filling up the hole, it looks like that would not be possible. The reviewer seems to be willing to reward the cache theif with archival. The cache theif has also gone out of their way to make it appear that it was not geocaching related.

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

7k · January 11, 2012

How about putting a few hundred micros there? With a note to the cache thief: "please steal only one at a time"? Problem solved? :lol:

2k · January 11, 2012

If I'm not mistaken the CO did NOT change the size to micro. He just wanted to accept the micro throwdowns in lieu of the regular container until he could do maintenance.

I'm not Hemlock, but I am guessing if the CO had actually changed the size to micro, he'd have been fine. I'm sure that once the CO gets out and does maintenance that he will unlock the page.

I THINK what the reviewer is saying is that the listing states a particular size and the cache should match that size. If you want to change Mingo to a micro, fine, make the change to the listing.

But if you want to keep it as a regular, then disable your cache when you know it to be missing until such time that you can do maintenance and replace with another cache the same size as listed.

It seems pretty clear that it's not a page edit that it was disabled for, rather the reviewer injecting his own personal bias to have it restored to a regular. Everyone else can edit their cache sizes as needed except for Mingo.

With cement filling up the hole, it looks like that would not be possible. The reviewer seems to be willing to reward the cache theif with archival. The cache theif has also gone out of their way to make it appear that it was not geocaching related.

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

I may have missed it, but did the CO actually change the cache size in the listing itself to micro?

My understanding is that the CO was attempting to allow micros to fill the gap until he could put a regular cache back out.

The cache needs to match what is listed on the page.

Mingo isn't Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container or he CO changes the listing to reflect that Mingo is now a micro.

I haven't seen anything from the CO stating he wishes it to be changed to micro for the duration of its existence.

2k · January 11, 2012

The reviewer seems to be willing to reward the cache theif with archival. The cache theif has also gone out of their way to make it appear that it was not geocaching related.

If I were the cache thief I would be receiving way more reward from this thread than I would an archival.

What should have happened is the CO should have disabled the cache when the first problem arose during the construction going on at ground zero.

He should have left it disabled until the construction was over and just asked people to chill until he got ready to replace it.

As it is, this has turned into a cache thief's wildest dream. I can just see him now sitting in his undies in his mom's basement eating cheetos and giggling his butt off while reading this thread and the notes on the cache listing.

3.6k · January 11, 2012

The reviewer seems to be willing to reward the cache theif with archival. The cache theif has also gone out of their way to make it appear that it was not geocaching related.

If I were the cache thief I would be receiving way more reward from this thread than I would an archival.

What should have happened is the CO should have disabled the cache when the first problem arose during the construction going on at ground zero.

He should have left it disabled until the construction was over and just asked people to chill until he got ready to replace it.

As it is, this has turned into a cache thief's wildest dream. I can just see him now sitting in his undies in his mom's basement eating cheetos and giggling his butt off while reading this thread and the notes on the cache listing.

If I was the CO, I would tell people to CHILL! Or just archive it and file lawsuit against GS if they cant control the mad mob.*sarcasm*!!!!!!

Edited January 11, 2012 by SwineFlew

January 11, 2012

As it is, this has turned into a cache thief's wildest dream. I can just see him now sitting in his undies in his mom's basement eating cheetos and giggling his butt off while reading this thread and the notes on the cache listing.

If so, surely his mother would tire of driving him to the cache site. Anyway, he'd be easy to track down because his last name is Cliché.

It's more likely that someone associated with the construction, like maybe a County employee, has decided that people should take their silly game elsewhere.

3.6k · January 11, 2012

As it is, this has turned into a cache thief's wildest dream. I can just see him now sitting in his undies in his mom's basement eating cheetos and giggling his butt off while reading this thread and the notes on the cache listing.

If so, surely his mother would tire of driving him to the cache site. Anyway, he'd be easy to track down because his last name is Cliché.

It's more likely that someone associated with the construction, like maybe a County employee, has decided that people should take their silly game elsewhere.

That what I assume all along, I dont think its a cacher that is doing it.

2k · January 11, 2012

It's more likely that someone associated with the construction, like maybe a County employee, has decided that people should take their silly game elsewhere.

An even better reason to have just disabled it until construction was over rather than make it an issue with one of the guys working in the area.

3.6k · January 11, 2012

It's more likely that someone associated with the construction, like maybe a County employee, has decided that people should take their silly game elsewhere.

An even better reason to have just disabled it until construction was over rather than make it an issue with one of the guys working in the area.

Well, I assume the CO was getting emails about that cache to a point that he was tied of it. Those people that PUSH the CO to replace it RIGHT now should be ashamed of themselves and locked for a month! And the throw down logs should had been deleted. I know if I was the CO, I would warn anyone on the cache page that their logs will be deleted during construction while the cache is disable.

2k · January 11, 2012

It's more likely that someone associated with the construction, like maybe a County employee, has decided that people should take their silly game elsewhere.

An even better reason to have just disabled it until construction was over rather than make it an issue with one of the guys working in the area.

Well, I assume the CO was getting emails about that cache to a point that he was tied of it. Those people that PUSH the CO to replace it RIGHT now should be ashamed of themselves and locked for a month! And the throw down logs should had been deleted. I know if I was the CO, I would warn anyone on the cache page that their logs will be deleted during construction while the cache is disable.

+1

1.2k · January 11, 2012

To me the most shocking thing out of this is the reviewer not allowing the owner to update the cache page to list the cache as a Micro (if the owner wanted to).

I didn't realize that was happening. It is?

On Dec 19 Volunteer reviewer Hemlock said this:

Post

Reviewer Note12/19/2011

Mingo is not Mingo unless it is a regular-sized container. I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

I think that's what people are referring to. I don't think it's clear, however, if the reviewer would prevent the cache owner from editing the cache listing and declaring it a micro.

Am no expert, but I think this viewpoint from this reviewer is not supported in the guidelines if you ask me. Why wouldn't an owner of a non-ape cache not be allowed to change their own container size if they want.

Also any smart lawyer can say hey there you go, thought owners own the cache and you just publish them. Liability is an issue then.

9.3k · January 11, 2012

Anyway, he'd be easy to track down because his last name is Cliché.

And he'll have Cheetos dust on the front of his shirt.

2k · January 11, 2012

Anyway, he'd be easy to track down because his last name is Cliché.

And he'll have Cheetos dust on the front of his shirt.

And orange fingerprints on everything.

3.8k · January 12, 2012

I would guess that the road crew knows that the cache is going back. That is why they marked the hole. But it is a safety hazard to have a hole that a worker can step into or drive into while working in the area. Without going to the site we don't even know that the cache is gone. Perhaps it is just a temporary cap over the cache until they get done with construction.

At any rate all the discussion is just guesses. For all we know the CO and Hemlock are in contact and will re-enable the cache when the time is right.

January 12, 2012

It had been doing fine for a very long time until it went missing. The owner had not logged in for awhile, so it was replaced by someone in the community with a close replica. That went missing also. Next, the hole was filled up with cement, and a metal bar inserted. However, it was not done by the DOT or anyone else in any official capacity.

It wasn't replaced by some good samaritian for the good of the geocaching community. It was replaced with a throwdown container by someone who didn't want to drive all the way out there an not get a smiley. As is usually the case they justified it by saying it was to benefit those who came after.

-The person who stole it, is certainly a cacher. However, they have gone out of their way to hide thier identity and motive by placing cement and a metal stake in the middle of it. Some muggles leave nasty messages, and some will leave evidence of their destruction. This person is trying to make it appear that some official worker did it. Sort of like saying, "I don't have anything personal against the cache owner, but it has to go". So it appears that the motivation behind it could be because it is buried.

I can see where someone might assume it is a cacher. However, I have seen no proof that anyone knows who or what it is that keeps filling in the hole. So at this point to say it is a cacher is certainly pure speculation.

-Who would have motive? Perhaps someone who has had their buried cache turned down for publication, or archived after the fact. Or perhaps someone who has published plenty of buried caches, only having to archive plenty later, upsetting many.

Again nothing but speculation.

I think if the CO had of temporarily disabled it after it came up missing for the second time and the geocaching community could have refrained from leaving another container everytime somebody stopped and couldn't find the original (in the name of helping out the CO and the next finder of course)this might well be a non-issue now. My guess is if everyone could have left the area alone the person taking the containers might well have moved on to find something or someone else to annoy. But because the CO is determined to own the oldest active cache and a large portion of the geocaching community doesn't seem to have the ability to claim a DNF we now all suffer.

6.1k · January 12, 2012

It had been doing fine for a very long time until it went missing. The owner had not logged in for awhile, so it was replaced by someone in the community with a close replica. That went missing also. Next, the hole was filled up with cement, and a metal bar inserted. However, it was not done by the DOT or anyone else in any official capacity.

It wasn't replaced by some good samaritian for the good of the geocaching community. It was replaced with a throwdown container by someone who didn't want to drive all the way out there an not get a smiley. As is usually the case they justified it by saying it was to benefit those who came after.

The first time it went missing was June 26th. The cachers found an empty hole and drove 8 miles to find a suitable replacement. When they returned, it was filled with dirt. They dug out the dirt and replaced it. It sounds like a good samaritan act to me.

The second time it went missing was 3 months later on September 25th, when the hole was filled in with insulation foam. At that time it was replaced with a bison tube. A month or so went by before the CO replaced it with a similar container.

Since it has gone missing again and filled with cement, another bison tube was used as a replacement. The CO thinks it is fine. It is not as original, but considering the circumstances, it may be the best thing, as it appears that the same person has done this 3 times. The CO believes it is fine. Isn't it about "language of location" anyway? Why archive it and reward the person? Why does it have to be restored to original specs anyhow? Every other cache can be edited for size, but this one is different.

-The person who stole it, is certainly a cacher. However, they have gone out of their way to hide thier identity and motive by placing cement and a metal stake in the middle of it. Some muggles leave nasty messages, and some will leave evidence of their destruction. This person is trying to make it appear that some official worker did it. Sort of like saying, "I don't have anything personal against the cache owner, but it has to go". So it appears that the motivation behind it could be because it is buried.

I can see where someone might assume it is a cacher. However, I have seen no proof that anyone knows who or what it is that keeps filling in the hole. So at this point to say it is a cacher is certainly pure speculation.

I have never seen anything "official" marked in that way. Not for buried gas lines, electrical cable, phone lines, sewage, water, surveying, archaeology, or any other type of business. It is marked with simply "do not disturb" in the same way that the container was marked "do not disturb", as if they were mocking it.

However, I hope it was done as a temporary safety measure, which is still possible but unlikely.

-Who would have motive? Perhaps someone who has had their buried cache turned down for publication, or archived after the fact. Or perhaps someone who has published plenty of buried caches, only having to archive plenty later, upsetting many.

Again nothing but speculation.

I think if the CO had of temporarily disabled it after it came up missing for the second time and the geocaching community could have refrained from leaving another container everytime somebody stopped and couldn't find the original (in the name of helping out the CO and the next finder of course)this might well be a non-issue now. My guess is if everyone could have left the area alone the person taking the containers might well have moved on to find something or someone else to annoy. But because the CO is determined to own the oldest active cache and a large portion of the geocaching community doesn't seem to have the ability to claim a DNF we now all suffer.

It can be reenabled, but a reviewer has injected their own feelings into the mix and created a new guideline.

I disabled it last time a micro showed up in it's place and will do so again if anything besides a regular shows up. This historic cache needs to be done right, or not done at all.

Note, it is not disabled with a request to edit the page. It is disabled unless it is restored to a regular.

Edited January 12, 2012 by 4wheelin_fool

19k · January 13, 2012

As it is, this has turned into a cache thief's wildest dream. I can just see him now sitting in his undies in his mom's basement eating cheetos and giggling his butt off while reading this thread and the notes on the cache listing.

Wow! Did you see this picture in the gallery?!?

MINGO in jeopardy?

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