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MINGO in jeopardy?


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Owner's log sounds like they are getting :angry:

I saw that and wonder whats going on!! I am sure the CO is so sick of all the emails about it.

 

I have to agree to the CO to a point. There was a time when simply finding A THING using your GPS was enough and that the location of the hide was stressed over the particularities of the container.

 

But... either manage your caches or don't. Absent COs are living in glass houses.

They are not absent but I am sure life does get in the way sometimes.

Like in my case I am very active in caching so close to getting 20K, but very soon I will be unable to cache or maintain my caches for awhile. Hoping some of my good caching friends will help me out until I get back.

 

Life getting in the way is one thing, but if I recall the last time there was a problem with Mingo it was clear that the CO isn't activly involved in caching these days yet doesn't want to give up ownership to an adoption. It sounds like, with the exception of the log from the CO, that the people doing the work to make sure the cache is maintained and viable are not the CO. Maybe it's a case of things being worked behind the scenes or on a local level that do involve the CO that most of us are not aware of, but at first glance it appears to me that the CO is absent for long periods of time.

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Owner's log sounds like they are getting :angry:

One of the caches I keep watch on is a small Lock & Lock tethered about 5' up a tree, with a fairly high D/T rating. The most recent log was a NM claiming "No way to get to it safely.. relocate if possible". At least 15 people have managed to find it with minimal injury prior to this log. It does create a quandary for the CO. Delete the log for being ridiculous? Post a Maintenance Performed log pointing out the logic flaws in the NM? Leave it alone?

 

Who cares what kind of container it is? If the CO wishes to change it to a micro, why shouldn't he?

Agreed. If the CO wants to change a regular to a micro, or vice versa, that is there right. The only thing I would expect from the CO is that they change the size designation accordingly. While it's not required, I think it's the right thing to do. Now if some other mook does a throw down, as cheesy as that concept is, spewing out a container radically dissimilar to the original should be frowned upon. If one of my ammo cans goes missing, and someone tosses out a new ammo can rather than claim the DNF they earned, I might grumble to myself, but that would be the extent of my whining. They thought they were helping, and they used a container they know I approve of. But if someone tosses out a film can because they can't find my ammo can, now I not only have to replace my can, (not a worry, as that's my responsibility), but I also feel obligated to remove the trash left behind by the throw down cacher.

 

balance / heritage

I am one of those kooks who believe that where we come from is part and parcel of who we are today, and as such, we should make reasonable attempts to preserve our heritage. I was quite taken aback when Tunnel of Light got archived, but those gripes are probably best saved for another thread. I have come to a point where I believe Groundspeak did carefully consider their options before pulling the trigger on that one, and that they worked closely with the cache owner before doing so. I assume they'll give the same considerations if the Brazil A.P.E. Cache falls under scrutiny. In short, it was probably the right thing to do. My liking or disliking their choice is irrelevant.

 

A glance at Mingo's cache page tells me that Groundspeak is treating this one a bit more tenderly than your every day, run of the mill film can in a Burger King hedge, and as a lover of history, I appreciate the extra consideration that has been given. If all that drama had been posted on a cache page of a two year old coffee tub behind a Wally World, I imagine TPTB would have locked that sucker down.

 

Kudos to The Lily Pad. B)

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...heritage... ...history...

 

I don't really disagree with your point, but I can't help but grumble a little at this.

 

It's like a 10+ year old hobby. Really? This is kind of on par to comparing Mingo to the White House and the APE cache to Mecca.

That's true. We've only been around a short time. But every hobby has to start somewhere. When I look around my home turf, I see that the average life expectancy of a cache is about a year and a half. Given that, seeing one that has lasted 10 years seems pretty impressive to me. While I may be internalizing my bias, caches like Mingo do seem to have historical significance.

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To a certain extent, the A.P.E. cache was a Mecca, or geo-Mecca, if you will. I can't remember how many people came to the NW to do the geo-triad of this cache, the Lily Pad, and the original stash cache outside of Portland. People are planning their vacations around geocaching, or their get away weekends, or heck, just playing hooky for a day from work (guilty!!). Having iconic caches out there for folks to get to is what makes so enjoyable. When I drove cross country, Mingo was #1 on my list to get. I'm kicking myself because the last time I was in Atlanta, I didn't get Lake Lanier for the August 2000 jasmer (and there's only three of those left in the country, so don't delay). Yes, I think Groundspeak is keeping an eye on these older caches, as well they should. They are the backbone that has helped make this hobby last over 11 years.

 

 

...heritage... ...history...

 

I don't really disagree with your point, but I can't help but grumble a little at this.

 

It's like a 10+ year old hobby. Really? This is kind of on par to comparing Mingo to the White House and the APE cache to Mecca.

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Having iconic caches out there for folks to get to is what makes so enjoyable...

 

...Yes, I think Groundspeak is keeping an eye on these older caches, as well they should. They are the backbone that has helped make this hobby last over 11 years.

 

So without old caches or caches tied to movies there is no joy to be found in caching. I’ll keep that in mind.

 

No single or group of Geocaches are the backbone of this hobby- the cachers are. This highlights a disturbing trend I’ve seen since I started doing this almost five years ago(which to those of you that would impart Mecca status on a bucket in the ground must seem like the early 18th century) a move towards the caches(exchangable with "the numbers") being more important than the cachers.

 

At best, Mingo is the House on the Rock of geocaches. The APE caches are old barns with the “See ROCK CITY” painted on their roofs. Interesting, fascinating, even enthralling to some, sure. Yes, they are in the scale of All Things Caching “important” but I think the use of terms like WHITE HOUSE and MECCA are out of scale and disingenuous to the cultural, sociological, and geographical value of those places.

 

I get the coolness factor of Mingo. Heck in a few months if it’s still there I’ll be making the find. It’s a nice little set of numbers in my overall statistics. Neat-o. Nerd joy ahoy!

 

But I don’t think it will compare to the sights I’m going to see along the way as we make our way across the country. In the grand scheme of things, there’s more “history” on the corner of North Warren Avenue in Winslow, Arizona then there is in that hole in the ground in the middle of Kansas.

 

But I understand that I’m not going to change anybody’s mind and nobody is going to change mind and actually I just got back from the Grand Canyon of lunches and I need to take the Washington Monument of a whiz before I tackle this Pyramid of Giza of a spreadsheet. It’s really been a German Occupation of Poland kind of a week and I’m ready to take the persistent vegetative state of naps.

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If you are going to quote me, I wish you would include my entire quote, rather that paraphrasing it to a few lines that supports your point of view.

 

No, I do not think old caches or caches with movie tie-ins are the only enjoyable things to geocaching. My point was that they provide an enhancement to simply finding a 35mm film can in a bush, or a key box on a guard rail. I've experienced more on my travels since I've been geocaching than I did before. I've been to places where I've lived for 30 years that I've never been to before. I had a great time exploring Tombstone Arizona, finding a cache only 20 feet from where Virgil Earp was shot and crippled. It was a completing a loop of sorts since Virgil is buried in Portland Oregon, and is the subject of a multi cache here. Those are the kind of things that make caching so cool!! I agree that cachers are the backbone of this hobby. But cool and imaginative caches are the meat on the bone. Maybe I'm spoiled living 10 miles from where geocaching started, and having three of the oldest caches in the world (GC12/16/17) within 20 miles. I hope not. Someday the last A.P.E. cache will be gone. Someday Mingo will be gone. Until then, they are just destinations on a journey, and to most cachers, they're the high point. They were for me.

 

 

Having iconic caches out there for folks to get to is what makes so enjoyable...

 

...Yes, I think Groundspeak is keeping an eye on these older caches, as well they should. They are the backbone that has helped make this hobby last over 11 years.

 

So without old caches or caches tied to movies there is no joy to be found in caching. I’ll keep that in mind.

 

No single or group of Geocaches are the backbone of this hobby- the cachers are. This highlights a disturbing trend I’ve seen since I started doing this almost five years ago(which to those of you that would impart Mecca status on a bucket in the ground must seem like the early 18th century) a move towards the caches(exchangable with "the numbers") being more important than the cachers.

 

At best, Mingo is the House on the Rock of geocaches. The APE caches are old barns with the “See ROCK CITY” painted on their roofs. Interesting, fascinating, even enthralling to some, sure. Yes, they are in the scale of All Things Caching “important” but I think the use of terms like WHITE HOUSE and MECCA are out of scale and disingenuous to the cultural, sociological, and geographical value of those places.

 

I get the coolness factor of Mingo. Heck in a few months if it’s still there I’ll be making the find. It’s a nice little set of numbers in my overall statistics. Neat-o. Nerd joy ahoy!

 

But I don’t think it will compare to the sights I’m going to see along the way as we make our way across the country. In the grand scheme of things, there’s more “history” on the corner of North Warren Avenue in Winslow, Arizona then there is in that hole in the ground in the middle of Kansas.

 

But I understand that I’m not going to change anybody’s mind and nobody is going to change mind and actually I just got back from the Grand Canyon of lunches and I need to take the Washington Monument of a whiz before I tackle this Pyramid of Giza of a spreadsheet. It’s really been a German Occupation of Poland kind of a week and I’m ready to take the persistent vegetative state of naps.

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At best, Mingo is the House on the Rock of geocaches. The APE caches are old barns with the “See ROCK CITY” painted on their roofs. Interesting, fascinating, even enthralling to some, sure. Yes, they are in the scale of All Things Caching “important” but I think the use of terms like WHITE HOUSE and MECCA are out of scale and disingenuous to the cultural, sociological, and geographical value of those places.

I think that's a fine sentiment, for you, and it even has a somewhat rational basis. But it is not a catch all sentiment, which works well for all. For instance, my thoughts on historic and/or iconic caches run almost directly contrary to yours. If House on the Rock was one of the first houses ever built, or even one of the first luxury houses to be converted into a resort, I might agree a bit more with your analogy. And, if there were only a dozen or so old barns bearing the "See Rock City" banner, which were visited by people from across the globe, and over time all but one of those barns were torn down, then that analogy might work for me as well.

 

But they are not.

 

Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

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Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

But there were caches placed before Mingo. 6 of them. They gradually went away and left Mingo as the oldest active. What makes Mingo (as a standalone cache) so special that this process should be stopped dead and not allow another cache to become the oldest active? Why stop at Mingo, when it didn't stop at any of the previous ones? Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time, so it can retain this status? What's so special about the 7th oldest cache? I certainly don't remember who came in 7th in a car race, or a sports season. If we were talking about the first cache, then it would be a completely different matter. I have yet to see a compelling reason to treat Mingo any different than other caches. If Kansas Stasher gets tired of replacing it, they should have 100% of the say in what happens with Mingo. With all the recurring problems, it should have been archived long ago anyway.

I say move on to GC12!

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But there were caches placed before Mingo. 6 of them.

Uh... Wow... Thanx for the reminder... Now I won't confuse Mingo with Dave Ulmer's bucket. :rolleyes: Say, you do know what the term "one of the" means, when used in a sentence like this one, right? "If House on the Rock was one of the first houses ever built" I would say that, out of 1,616,514 active hides on the planet, the 7th one would certainly qualify as one of the first.

 

What makes Mingo so special that this process should be stopped dead?

Has anyone, at any time, so much as hinted that the process of natural selection should be entirely eliminated? No? I didn't think so, which makes your question rather curious. One wonders if you are just arguing to hear yourself type, or if you just have some bizarre compulsion to spew hyperbole, and find this forum a place where such needs can be met.

 

Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time?

Has anyone so much as hinted that Mingo should be maintained forever?

No? More hyperbole, perhaps?

 

What's so special about the 7th oldest cache?

I thought I mentioned that already... Lemme check... Yup! I found it. I'll repost it here, just in case there is anyone else who missed it the first time around: (I even took the time to highlight the relevant bits)

 

...the average life expectancy of a cache is about a year and a half. Given that, seeing one that has lasted 10 years seems pretty impressive to me. While I may be internalizing my bias, caches like Mingo do seem to have historical significance.

and

But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

Did you see the important part in both statements? They stress that they were just my personal opinions. I get that, to you, a cache which has survived 11 years has no more historical significance than a film can spewed out in a Wally World hedge yesterday, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's your opinion. But not everyone shares your opinion.

 

I certainly don't remember who came in 7th in a car race

So, you equate the entire history of this game, every single cache ever hidden over an 11 year period, with a single race, over in just a few hours? I don't particularly care for most racing, (drive fast, turn left), but even I can tell you who won the first 10 Daytona 500 races. (Mario Andretti won the 7th)

 

I can also remember who was the 7th President of these United States, and which state was the 7th to officially join the Union. That's because I appreciate history. You, apparently, do not. And that's OK.

 

If the CO gets tired of replacing it, they should have the say in what happens with Mingo.

Has anyone, at any time, so much as hinted otherwise?

 

With all the recurring problems, it should have been archived long ago anyway.

Then put your money where your mouth is and post the NA.

Otherwise, you're just making noise...

Edited by Clan Riffster
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If you are going to quote me, I wish you would include my entire quote, rather that paraphrasing it to a few lines that supports your point of view.

 

If I'm only addressing one particular statement then I'm only going to quote that section. I'm not going to clutter up a post with your entire post. I don't think that I took your post out of context nor did I hack and slash it up to make you say something you did not.

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No, I do not think old caches or caches with movie tie-ins are the only enjoyable things to geocaching. My point was that they provide an enhancement to simply finding a 35mm film can in a bush, or a key box on a guard rail. I've experienced more on my travels since I've been geocaching than I did before. I've been to places where I've lived for 30 years that I've never been to before. I had a great time exploring Tombstone Arizona, finding a cache only 20 feet from where Virgil Earp was shot and crippled. It was a completing a loop of sorts since Virgil is buried in Portland Oregon, and is the subject of a multi cache here. Those are the kind of things that make caching so cool!! I agree that cachers are the backbone of this hobby. But cool and imaginative caches are the meat on the bone. Maybe I'm spoiled living 10 miles from where geocaching started, and having three of the oldest caches in the world (GC12/16/17) within 20 miles. I hope not. Someday the last A.P.E. cache will be gone. Someday Mingo will be gone. Until then, they are just destinations on a journey, and to most cachers, they're the high point. They were for me.

 

Let's not kid ourselves. In regard to Mingo, the coolness is the age. It is/was a bucket in a hole in the ground. We aren't talking about cool/creative caches, we're talking about Mingo. None of the things you listed (that I've bolded) have anything to do with Mingo and caches that you describe in this post were not the subject of your previous post wherein you were talking about Mingo.

 

As caches go, once you take away the "published on" date away from Mingo, it's no different from the vast majority of caches that I've found or anybody else has found. I'd hunt it down if I were in the area, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with it, but don't group it in with "imaginative" caches to build it up to something that it's not.

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I personally apologize for turning this into a tennis match, but here we go...

 

I think that's a fine sentiment, for you, and it even has a somewhat rational basis. But it is not a catch all sentiment, which works well for all.

 

Yes and as my posts and others in the thread clearly (rationally even) demonstrate, the inverse is true as well. The importance to which some in the caching community want to place on Mingo (or the APE caches for that matter) is not universally accepted among all of the caching community.

 

For instance, my thoughts on historic and/or iconic caches run almost directly contrary to yours. If House on the Rock was one of the first houses ever built, or even one of the first luxury houses to be converted into a resort, I might agree a bit more with your analogy.

 

Really? Is that the sum total of the significance of House on the Rock. Just house, just a luxury house that's been converted to a resort? I realize the analogy is not an exact perfect fit, but you're downplaying several unique features of the site. I used it because I thought it was more on par than say some location or building that has significant religious or (universal) historical value. It's a man-made location that generally whose importance is generally "created". I could as just as easily used the monument in Kansas that marks the "Center of the USA".

 

And, if there were only a dozen or so old barns bearing the "See Rock City" banner, which were visited by people from across the globe, and over time all but one of those barns were torn down, then that analogy might work for me as well.

 

But they are not.

 

I'd dare suppose that there were more total barns in the country at the time the "See Rock City" ads were painted then there were total geocaches in the country at the time the APE caches were released. Currently of the 900 or so that were painted, less than 100 remain.

 

Both were a means to advertise a commercial project. If you can bridge the gap between a bucket and Mecca, then this shouldn't be too hard to draw comparisons.

 

No analogy is perfect. The Mingo = Mecca/White House is less perfect than most.

 

Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

 

How many times as Mingo been replaced? I'm not sure it has survived. The listing has, but the cache... not so much.

Edited by Castle Mischief
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Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

But there were caches placed before Mingo. 6 of them. They gradually went away and left Mingo as the oldest active. What makes Mingo (as a standalone cache) so special that this process should be stopped dead and not allow another cache to become the oldest active? Why stop at Mingo, when it didn't stop at any of the previous ones? Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time, so it can retain this status? What's so special about the 7th oldest cache? I certainly don't remember who came in 7th in a car race, or a sports season. If we were talking about the first cache, then it would be a completely different matter. I have yet to see a compelling reason to treat Mingo any different than other caches. If Kansas Stasher gets tired of replacing it, they should have 100% of the say in what happens with Mingo. With all the recurring problems, it should have been archived long ago anyway.

I say move on to GC12!

 

This post borders on absurdity.

 

Other facets of life celebrate the same sort of thing all the time. We often venerate the oldest member of a specific war. Was he or she the oldest to serve in the war? Why in the world should we celebrate him or her then??? Newsworthy is the last remaining animal of a specific species. Since others were born before that one, I suppose we should just let it pass without notice. The oldest remaining copy of an antiquarian book is almost always prized. What, it was only the 50th copy ever published? I guess it goes on the trash heap. I could pull dozens of examples.

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Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

But there were caches placed before Mingo. 6 of them. They gradually went away and left Mingo as the oldest active. What makes Mingo (as a standalone cache) so special that this process should be stopped dead and not allow another cache to become the oldest active? Why stop at Mingo, when it didn't stop at any of the previous ones? Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time, so it can retain this status? What's so special about the 7th oldest cache? I certainly don't remember who came in 7th in a car race, or a sports season. If we were talking about the first cache, then it would be a completely different matter. I have yet to see a compelling reason to treat Mingo any different than other caches. If Kansas Stasher gets tired of replacing it, they should have 100% of the say in what happens with Mingo. With all the recurring problems, it should have been archived long ago anyway.

I say move on to GC12!

 

This post borders on absurdity.

 

Other facets of life celebrate the same sort of thing all the time. We often venerate the oldest member of a specific war. Was he or she the oldest to serve in the war? Why in the world should we celebrate him or her then??? Newsworthy is the last remaining animal of a specific species. Since others were born before that one, I suppose we should just let it pass without notice. The oldest remaining copy of an antiquarian book is almost always prized. What, it was only the 50th copy ever published? I guess it goes on the trash heap. I could pull dozens of examples.

 

This post borders on absurdity.

 

Mingo is neither the last survivor of a war, the last of a species, nor the last remaining copy of an ancient tome.

 

It's the odlest (semi)active listing that was published on this website. Enjoy it for what it is.

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Whether our history is 10 years old or 1000 years old, it is still our history. There is a definite starting point. If the majority of caches tended to survive over an extended time period, (say, for argument's sake, 75% of our total history), then I would be OK with those folks who attempt to minimize the place that Mingo, and caches like Mingo, hold in our history. But since the average cache only lasts about 15% of our total history, (at least locally), one that has survived more than 90% of our total history really does occupy a position of importance. At least to me.

But there were caches placed before Mingo. 6 of them. They gradually went away and left Mingo as the oldest active. What makes Mingo (as a standalone cache) so special that this process should be stopped dead and not allow another cache to become the oldest active? Why stop at Mingo, when it didn't stop at any of the previous ones? Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time, so it can retain this status? What's so special about the 7th oldest cache? I certainly don't remember who came in 7th in a car race, or a sports season. If we were talking about the first cache, then it would be a completely different matter. I have yet to see a compelling reason to treat Mingo any different than other caches. If Kansas Stasher gets tired of replacing it, they should have 100% of the say in what happens with Mingo. With all the recurring problems, it should have been archived long ago anyway.

I say move on to GC12!

 

This post borders on absurdity.

 

Other facets of life celebrate the same sort of thing all the time. We often venerate the oldest member of a specific war. Was he or she the oldest to serve in the war? Why in the world should we celebrate him or her then??? Newsworthy is the last remaining animal of a specific species. Since others were born before that one, I suppose we should just let it pass without notice. The oldest remaining copy of an antiquarian book is almost always prized. What, it was only the 50th copy ever published? I guess it goes on the trash heap. I could pull dozens of examples.

 

This post borders on absurdity.

 

Mingo is neither the last survivor of a war, the last of a species, nor the last remaining copy of an ancient tome.

 

It's the odlest (semi)active listing that was published on this website. Enjoy it for what it is.

 

It is none of those, exactly. That is the exact point of WHY each specific thing is pointed out. What you are adding is your personal judgment about what is worthy to be noteworthy or newsworthy. Do I think Mingo carries the same significance as the oldest WWII survivor? Probably not. Does the oldest copy of The Waste Land come near the WWII survivor? Hard to say. It's all a judgment call. Yet it is noteworthy when something is the oldest or last surviving of a particular subset. Doesn't matter how long the subject has been around. The points about its upkeep or status really have no bearing on the fact that it is the oldest remaining cache listing. I understand you may not place as much emphasis on it as others, but that fact remains and you cannot dispute that it makes it noteworthy...

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The points about its upkeep or status really have no bearing on the fact that it is the oldest remaining cache listing.

 

There will always be a "Oldest Active Cache". When/if Mingo gets archived, there will be a new one to take it's place. And who knows, that one (or the next or the next) will actually have a longer lifespan. When the previous "record holding" caches were archived, was there such angst? (I don't when the first 5 caches were archived and what their lifespans were, and their lifespans may have been very short).

 

Being able to claim "I've found the oldest active cache" is fleeting. I've found "The Spot", but not "Mingo". If the small number of caches with longer lives get archived, I'll be able to claim "I've found the oldest active cache." Not sure it's that big of a deal. Having found hte first cache, that's the big deal.

 

So, should this cache get special treatment, I don't think so.

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am kinda amazed that when I made my 2000 bookmark list about a year or so ago, not a single 2000 cache has been archived since then. Not that I am claiming I am the only person to have such a bookmark list, but at the time, I could not find any complete bookmark lists showing active AND archived 2000 caches all the way to December.

 

So, the 2000 caches have certainly persevered well in the last year, despite some attempts to remove them (ie GCD as well).

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=4ef60473-96d9-4f21-9266-3b45890a601e

Edited by lamoracke
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My 3 1/2 cents worth opinion on this topic.

Logbooks and containers get replaced on many caches on a regular basis,

but to downgrade MINGO to a micro/film canister seems absurd.

If isn't replaced with a similar container to the original

then it should be archived as the hide has changed.

 

My 2 cents. I have changed a few caches from regular to micro. In those cases, I did not want to, but it was the best I could come up with to preserve the hide. Sure, its not the exact same hide as the start, but its the same spot to me, or close enough to me to be worth keeping the same GC#. I personally do not see why Mingo is any different than the cache at my local neighborhood park. Its a traditional, just older as far as the cache goes, which obviously makes it cooler and more historical in many people's eyes. Sure, I like GC12 having the same container and logbook, but if it was changed to a small lock and lock, it would still be GC12 to me.

 

GCD changed its container recently and there was no uproar over that.

Edited by lamoracke
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GCD changed its container recently and there was no uproar over that.

Actually, there was a minor uproar, it just wasn't on the forums or Facebook. I heard various people express their concern at a "throwdown" replacement just because it was an old cache (a la Mingo) and the finder wanted the smiley, and that if the replacement container didn't have the feel of the original (a recipe card box) that it should be archived. I kid you not.

 

I personally don't think that Mingo, the APE cache, or GCD should be archived simply due to container change (other factors should be considered), but I also don't think they should be kept alive no matter what. Heck, I've found GC12, so if Mingo is archived, I'll have found the oldest active cache, so bring it on. (Just kidding.)

 

As this thread shows, opinions on these "historic" caches vary widely. And that's all I'm going to say about that. :lol:

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GCD changed its container recently and there was no uproar over that.

Count your blessings. The container was changed preemptively without first obtaining the owner's consent. The new container replaced the micro that someone, ahem, had already dropped as a possible replacement. There was no uproar, but there was some discussion.

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Wow.

I add my personal opinion to the discussion, and I get attacked and insulted from several directions. As much as I would love to further dissect and respond to these attacks, I'll not be baited into doing so, because this topic is already heading off-topic.

The one point I will address is Clan Riffster's statement here:

Should Mingo be maintained for the rest of time?

Has anyone so much as hinted that Mingo should be maintained forever?

No? More hyperbole, perhaps?

Maybe a tiny bit of hyperbole, but not much. I'm not going to go digging looking for quotes from others, but it's pretty clear that a large number of people want to keep Mingo going. I'm sure if Kansas Stasher said they were planning on archiving Mingo, you'd have a huge number of cachers wanting to adopt it. If Mingo is not to be maintained "forever", then for how long? Will there be a point where you would be OK with it being archived?

 

Now, due to the complete lack of respect for the opinions of others, and the fact that this thread is devolving into a mud-slinging match, I will no longer be visiting this thread. Now you can attack me and my opinions all you want without me knowing. Have fun.

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I personally apologize for turning this into a tennis match, but here we go...

No apologies needed. You.ve got a great serve, and a strong return. :P

 

Just house, just a luxury house that's been converted to a resort?

I'll have to plead ignorance. (Not a hard stretch for a Riffster, ya know) I had to Google House on a Rock to even know what you were talking about. Apparently I didn't dig deep enough to see its unique qualities. I thought it was just another high end place to squish a pillow. Me culpa.

 

Knowing now what I do, I'm still not sure the analogy is effective, even with the acknowledgement that analogies, in and of themselves, will always fail at some level. The thing that makes Mingo unique, as you mentioned in a different post, is its age. Nothing more. You were dead on when you suggested that, without the low GC number, it's just another P&G. The thing that makes House on the Rock special is its unique construction, coupled with its scenic location, and its way kewl decor. None of which are present at Mingo.

 

Both Mingo and HotR are unique, but for different reasons. Which kind of argues in my favor. Now that I've poked about the HotR photo gallery, I would personally hate to see that place knocked down to make room for a Wally World. By the same token, I would hate to see Mingo archived to make room for a 2 week old soggy log film can.

 

If you can bridge the gap between a bucket and Mecca...

I think it was Groundspeak that created that bridge. The Lily Pad decided, (presumably for commercial purposes), that us players needed some brass ring to reach for, so they advertised The Original Stash Plaque as part of a holy Trifecta, along with Groundspeak Headquarters, and Tunnel of Light. A pretty good ploy, I think. Each location, by itself, carried some measure of importance in our history. Combining the three into one goal was marketing genius. Over the decades, I have lost my love of travel, but the Trifecta was something I would have willingly traveled diagonally across the country to obtain.

 

How many times as Mingo been replaced? I'm not sure it has survived. The listing has, but the cache... not so much.

For me, at least in this instance, the listing is what's primarily important, not the container. The listing is where folks digitally gather, adding their monikers to the annals of history. As you said, take away the GC number, and it's just another container. The GC number is an inherent part of the listing. So long as the listing survives, folks will have the opportunity to log Mingo.

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...it's pretty clear that a large number of people want to keep Mingo going.

And that's bad because...?

As indicated here, and further indicated by the sheer volume of logs on Mingo from folks who traveled a long way just to add their names to the history, it's pretty clear that there are a lot of folks who would like to see Mingo continue to be a viable cache. I don't think that having folks wanting to keep a cache going is a bad thing, nor do I see it as a reason to archive it.

 

If KS said he was archiving it, you'd have lots of cachers wanting to adopt it.

Again... That's bad because...?

If KS decides to adopt out Mingo, then presumably the owner will remain active until such a time that they don't want to play anymore. If you adopt a cache from me, I don't think the mere fact that I let you adopt it is a bad thing, nor do I think it's a reason to archive it.

 

Will there be a point where you would be OK with it being archived?

Of course. My inner rules for posting an NA require three elements:

1 ) The cache is in significant disrepair.

2 ) The owner has dropped off the face of the earth.

3 ) The community is unwilling to maintain it.

(OK, there's a 4th, but it trumps the other 3)

4 ) There is a serious guideline violation.

 

If Mingo ever reaches all three elements at the top of the list, or is determined to be a serious guideline violation, let me know. I'll post the NA myself. Contrary to the hype you are trying to sell, there really isn't anyone here suggesting that Mingo be allowed to live regardless of the circumstances it might find itself in later.

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am kinda amazed that when I made my 2000 bookmark list about a year or so ago, not a single 2000 cache has been archived since then. Not that I am claiming I am the only person to have such a bookmark list, but at the time, I could not find any complete bookmark lists showing active AND archived 2000 caches all the way to December.

 

So, the 2000 caches have certainly persevered well in the last year, despite some attempts to remove them (ie GCD as well).

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=4ef60473-96d9-4f21-9266-3b45890a601e

 

Um, minor detail, you have GC4E stated as never found, when actually it was found 3 times. A photo of the log book is down towards the bottom of the page in the link, together with the story of England's First stash. A lot of logs of early caches don't seem to be shown on Groundspeak.

 

GC4E England's First!

 

And over here we're quite proud of this one, to the point of erecting this:

511f3862-5a4a-4a14-bc75-7cb65b0abbef.jpg

Edited by Cache! Eh?
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But I don't think it will compare to the sights I'm going to see along the way as we make our way across the country. In the grand scheme of things, there's more "history" on the corner of North Warren Avenue in Winslow, Arizona

 

Music_notes_by_KibasGirlyGirl.gif

Standing on the corner of Mingo, Arizona, such a fine sight to see

Its a cache waymark my lord, in a 4 inch hole, filled with cheap concrete

 

Take It Easy... take it easy

Music_notes_by_KibasGirlyGirl.gif

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It is not just the age of Mingo that makes it cool, it's also the type of cache that is it. You say it's just a bucket in a hole in the ground. You're right. But when it was put out, that was what a lot of caches were. For Heaven's sake, the very first cache was a 5 gallon bucket buried off the side of a country road outside of Portland. You're right, there is nothing imaginative about Mingo, except to show how this activity has changed over the past 10 years. That's why these older caches should be given as much respect and leeway for being kept in play, so that new cachers can see just how far we've come.

 

Also, the intent of my previous post (and I will explain it here, since you are wrong in your interpretation of it) is that cachers should appreciate all caches that are out there to be found. But we should treat older ones that are part of the heritage of that this activity was built on, no matter what they are or where they are. The comments that you highlighted in my quote (which I didn't in my original) were simply used as an example of what makes geocaching so much fun (at least to me). But then your mileage may vary.....

 

 

No, I do not think old caches or caches with movie tie-ins are the only enjoyable things to geocaching. My point was that they provide an enhancement to simply finding a 35mm film can in a bush, or a key box on a guard rail. I've experienced more on my travels since I've been geocaching than I did before. I've been to places where I've lived for 30 years that I've never been to before. I had a great time exploring Tombstone Arizona, finding a cache only 20 feet from where Virgil Earp was shot and crippled. It was a completing a loop of sorts since Virgil is buried in Portland Oregon, and is the subject of a multi cache here. Those are the kind of things that make caching so cool!! I agree that cachers are the backbone of this hobby. But cool and imaginative caches are the meat on the bone. Maybe I'm spoiled living 10 miles from where geocaching started, and having three of the oldest caches in the world (GC12/16/17) within 20 miles. I hope not. Someday the last A.P.E. cache will be gone. Someday Mingo will be gone. Until then, they are just destinations on a journey, and to most cachers, they're the high point. They were for me.

 

Let's not kid ourselves. In regard to Mingo, the coolness is the age. It is/was a bucket in a hole in the ground. We aren't talking about cool/creative caches, we're talking about Mingo. None of the things you listed (that I've bolded) have anything to do with Mingo and caches that you describe in this post were not the subject of your previous post wherein you were talking about Mingo.

 

As caches go, once you take away the "published on" date away from Mingo, it's no different from the vast majority of caches that I've found or anybody else has found. I'd hunt it down if I were in the area, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with it, but don't group it in with "imaginative" caches to build it up to something that it's not.

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GCD changed its container recently and there was no uproar over that.

Count your blessings. The container was changed preemptively without first obtaining the owner's consent. The new container replaced the micro that someone, ahem, had already dropped as a possible replacement. There was no uproar, but there was some discussion.

 

I suppose I need to clarify. I just meant in the end, at the end of the day...now that its been replaced with the CO's consent, its not the same container as before. I mean it got muggled at least twice yet the majority of folks wanted the cache to continue despite not the original container. You are right, there was some stuff in between, some I assuredly was not even aware of. I guess its a bad example then. Eraser!!

 

Will amend my GC4E bookmark to include there were 3 finders but no recorded logs at least on the Geocaching.com page.

Edited by lamoracke
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But I don't think it will compare to the sights I'm going to see along the way as we make our way across the country. In the grand scheme of things, there's more "history" on the corner of North Warren Avenue in Winslow, Arizona

 

Music_notes_by_KibasGirlyGirl.gif

Standing on the corner of Mingo, ArizonaKansas, such a fine sight to see

Its a cache waymark my lord, in a 4 inch hole, filled with cheap concrete

 

Take It Easy... take it easy

Music_notes_by_KibasGirlyGirl.gif

Fixed it for you.

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...heritage... ...history...

 

I don't really disagree with your point, but I can't help but grumble a little at this.

 

It's like a 10+ year old hobby. Really? This is kind of on par to comparing Mingo to the White House and the APE cache to Mecca.

That's true. We've only been around a short time. But every hobby has to start somewhere. When I look around my home turf, I see that the average life expectancy of a cache is about a year and a half. Given that, seeing one that has lasted 10 years seems pretty impressive to me. While I may be internalizing my bias, caches like Mingo do seem to have historical significance.

 

I think it's pretty clear that cachers want to have landmark caches and as long as it remains active, Mingo is one of them. When the Mission 9 Ape cache was active, it was found thousands of times, pretty much on a weekly basis, drawing cachers from around the world. Meanwhile, Mission 4: Southern Bowl was active and there were periods when it went years without a find and at its most active, was found about every six months.

Mission 9: Tunnel of Light was far easier to travel to and find and the ability to complete the Triad was also a big draw, so Mission 9 had advantages to those who wanted to find an Ape cache. When it got archived and Southern Bowl became the last Ape cache, the find rate for Mission 4 skyrocketed (compared to when it was Mission 9's little Ape brother). The only thing that's changed is that it's now the LAST Ape cache. Cachers still flock to HQ and the Original Stash Tribute and as evidenced by the past year, they're also preparing to travel to Brazil to find Mission 4.

 

It's true that if (when?) Mission 4 is archived, it will close the book on Ape caches and there will be no more. If Mingo is archived, another old cache just takes the spot as "oldest active cache" but that doesn't mean that while Mingo is active, it shouldn't be celebrated as the oldest active cache and that cachers shouldn't make it a geocaching destination.

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Heck, I've found GC12, so if Mingo is archived, I'll have found the oldest active cache, so bring it on. (Just kidding.)

Actually you will have found the cache that became the oldest active cache. When you found it, it didn't have that distiction. :P

 

And that was my point. Claiming "I've found the oldest active cache" is kind of meaningless as the older caches start getting archived. Lets say you found Mingo and not The Spot. You claim "I've found the oldest cache active cache." Mingo and the other caches placed before The Spot get archived (and no, I don't think they should get any sort of special considerations). The Spot is now the oldest active cache. There goes your claim.

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It is not just the age of Mingo that makes it cool, it's also the type of cache that is it. You say it's just a bucket in a hole in the ground. You're right. But when it was put out, that was what a lot of caches were. For Heaven's sake, the very first cache was a 5 gallon bucket buried off the side of a country road outside of Portland. You're right, there is nothing imaginative about Mingo, except to show how this activity has changed over the past 10 years. That's why these older caches should be given as much respect and leeway for being kept in play, so that new cachers can see just how far we've come.

 

Okay, I get it now. Mingo is cool because it reminds us of bad ideas and an image problem that resulted in caches being banned from some park systems. Golly, that does make it special.

 

Also, the intent of my previous post (and I will explain it here, since you are wrong in your interpretation of it) is that cachers should appreciate all caches that are out there to be found. But we should treat older ones that are part of the heritage of that this activity was built on, no matter what they are or where they are. The comments that you highlighted in my quote (which I didn't in my original) were simply used as an example of what makes geocaching so much fun (at least to me). But then your mileage may vary...

 

I noted that the highlighting was mine, there's no need to highlight the highlighting. I also edited out the two extraneous periods at the end of your ellipses because I'm mad with power.

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Of course. My inner rules for posting an NA require three elements:

1 ) The cache is in significant disrepair.

2 ) The owner has dropped off the face of the earth.

3 ) The community is unwilling to maintain it.

(OK, there's a 4th, but it trumps the other 3)

4 ) There is a serious guideline violation.

 

If Mingo ever reaches all three elements at the top of the list, or is determined to be a serious guideline violation, let me know. I'll post the NA myself. Contrary to the hype you are trying to sell, there really isn't anyone here suggesting that Mingo be allowed to live regardless of the circumstances it might find itself in later.

 

1)The original cache and logbook are gone.

2)The owner does not cache anymore, and logs in every few months or so.

3)The community has placed a few throwdown bison tube caches as a replacement.

4)As a buried cache without any type of permission, it does violate the guidelines.

 

On a personal note, I think a lot of people are taking geocaching way too serious. This started out as a "hey do you think we could hid something and have someone find it with only a GPS" idea on the news groups. It turned out to be fun and spread. Now we have too many rules and arguments about the size and types of caches, is it the "original" container or not. In my opinion, if you find the location, you can log it on the website (and don't start the virtual cache argument with me).

 

The only thing historical about the cache is the page, as the hysteria over it is rather silly. I dont see why the owner cant edit the page to make it a micro anyhow. Historical caches have a freeze on cache page edits now? :rolleyes:

 

GC31 was placed a month or so later and has the original logbook. Now that is a historical cache. Mingo has 447 favorites versus 81 on CC31. Why?

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GC31 was placed a month or so later and has the original logbook. Now that is a historical cache. Mingo has 447 favorites versus 81 on CC31. Why?

 

Easy answer.. Because GC30 is right on I-70 out in the middle of nowhere and GC31 is just plain out in the middle of nowhere.

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I was glad to have had the opportunity to find Mingo about 4 years when it was still in its original state and with all its original logs. Frankly I am surprised it has lasted this long given its easily accessible location. How many other "just off the exit" caches survive any length of time???? Most of the older caches that have survived require some amount of effort to find or get to. If I hadn't yet found it, I think I would still want to no matter what form it was in just for what the location represents to the geocaching community. I missed the opportunity to get the APE cache several years ago while out in Seattle for GeoWoodstock and was somewhat disappointed when it was archived. On the other hand, I have been fortunate that I have been able to find enough of the old caches to complete the Jasmer challenge as well as a number of other "oldest or first in the state" caches. It seems like a number of these caches have recently come under attack either by muggles (or folks with a personal vendetta), natural occurrences or construction. As more and more people take up geocaching and it becomes more well known, I think the amount of intentional destruction of caches is going to increase. My personal rule is "3 times muggled and its out" unless there is really a good reason to keep the cache going....If Mingo were my cache I would keep it going as long as I could before archiving but I would first see if someone else wanted to adopt it. Mingo is still Mingo although the cache page should be updated. JMHO

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GC31 was placed a month or so later and has the original logbook. Now that is a historical cache. Mingo has 447 favorites versus 81 on CC31. Why?

 

Easy answer.. Because GC30 is right on I-70 out in the middle of nowhere and GC31 is just plain out in the middle of nowhere.

 

No, it's because it is the oldest, even though the logbook in GC31 has more preserved history. People travel across the country to visit GC30, but not GC31, which is silly. Its even sillier to disallow the owner to edit the page for another type of hide, simply because its the oldest.

 

Mingo will be archived anyhow, as the hole is filled with cement, and the reviewer disallows page edits to reflect a micro (which would be more suitable for the location anyway). The land owner could be contacted to have the cement removed, but encase the cache in cement instead.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Time to archive it for sure. Not original, owner no longer caches, type of cache violates the guidelines, users have put replacement caches down - we can go on. Historic value... haha ya right, anything geocaching can have the word historic attached to it! Are we that delusional (for lack of a better word) peoples?

 

I'm pretty sure that whenever anyone refers to the historical significance of Mingo they're doing so in the context of the history of geocache. The argument that Mingo has no historic significance because it was placed 11 years ago on a planet that is estimated to be around 4.5 billions old is rather absurd.

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4)As a buried cache without any type of permission, it does violate the guidelines.

 

Every active virtual cache that exists today violates the guidelines, but they're allowed to exist due to the grandfather clause.

 

Apparently reviewers have considered grandfather clause to apply caches like Mingo (which were buried before the no buried caches guideline was create).

 

I don't think we can really say if permission was not obtained at the time Mingo was placed. That's moot now since someone from the DOT visited the location a few weeks ago and *explicitly" indicated that she didn't have any issues with it being there.

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Mingo will be archived anyhow, as the hole is filled with cement, and the reviewer disallows page edits to reflect a micro (which would be more suitable for the location anyway). The land owner could be contacted to have the cement removed, but encase the cache in cement instead.

 

Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted.

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Mango will be archived anyhow, as the hole is filled with cement, and the reviewer disallows page edits to reflect a micro (which would be more suitable for the location anyway). The land owner could be contacted to have the cement removed, but encase the cache in cement instead.

 

Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted.

 

The appropriate thing to do is to contact the owner of the fenced in property 3 feet away and let him know what it is. He is most likely the one who is muggling it, as he is not aware of it's significance.

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Mango will be archived anyhow, as the hole is filled with cement, and the reviewer disallows page edits to reflect a micro (which would be more suitable for the location anyway). The land owner could be contacted to have the cement removed, but encase the cache in cement instead.

 

Actually, I've suggested something like that a few times. We don't know who filled the hole with cement but there is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was *not* done by the land manager. Since the land manager visited the location a few weeks ago and gave tacit permission to have the cache at that location it was seem feasible to go back to the land manager and ask if the cement could be removed and replaced with a cement encasement that could hold a replica of the original container. It could also include a plaque or something which indicates that it's the oldest active geocache in the world, in place with permission of the DOT, and that anyone vandalizing or defacing of the location will be prosecuted.

 

The appropriate thing to do is to contact the owner of the fenced in property 3 feet away and let him know what it is. He is most likely the one who is muggling it, as he is not aware of it's significance.

 

I kinda suspected that when I looked at some of the gallery photos since it looks like that fence might be the corner of a large plot of land enclosed with a fence. However, if you look at the location with Google Earth you'll see that the fence is between a little dirt road, County Road K, and the on-ramp to the nearby interstate. I'm not sure what the actual purpose of the fence is, but it appears that both sides of the fence are under the jurisdiction of the county or state highway department.

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