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MINGO in jeopardy?


cheech gang
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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

my opinion is that some of the logs are armchair logging. :unsure:

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

my opinion is that some of the logs are armchair logging. :unsure:

 

I don't see any logs there in recent history that show any sign at all of armchair logging. If so, they are also armchair logging other caches in the area or along the route.

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

The log on 12/8 is referring to the micro bison tube that was thrown down by a previous cacher, isn't it?

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

The log on 12/8 is referring to the micro bison tube that was thrown down by a previous cacher, isn't it?

It mentions the throwdown, but also mentions the stake.

 

I see that hemlock has disabled the cache itself now.

 

Thursday, 08 December 2011 Kansas

Well, I found it, but I was somewhat disappointed to only find a micro sized container. I was hoping to swap TBs and pick up a new geocoin. Oh well, looks like the county or state put a stake in the ground nearby, so the original had to be downsized.

 

Doug 7rxc

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

The log on 12/8 is referring to the micro bison tube that was thrown down by a previous cacher, isn't it?

It mentions the throwdown, but also mentions the stake.

 

I see that hemlock has disabled the cache itself now.

 

Thursday, 08 December 2011 Kansas

Well, I found it, but I was somewhat disappointed to only find a micro sized container. I was hoping to swap TBs and pick up a new geocoin. Oh well, looks like the county or state put a stake in the ground nearby, so the original had to be downsized.

 

Doug 7rxc

Oops! Sure enough. Thanks for pointing that out. The previous log mentions travel bugs, so apparently it happened sometime in between those logs.

 

I see that Hemlock has disabled the cache for now, requesting Kansas Stasher to look into the situation.

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Update....

 

The cache is now disabled whit a note from the local reviewer saying if it isn't done right it won't be done at all. No micro replacements allowed! I'm just wondering if this is some kind of new policy they have taken on muggled caches. They did the same thing to the ape cache in Washington once it got muggled. Are they imposing a different standard on older caches that the community feels "mean more"?

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Too me I see two forum discussions going on.

One here on the forum and one in Mingo's logs.

Mingo is NOT a forum and shouldn't be treated that way.

And what is going on with the LATEST in the logs. Would you guys have your ammo can be reduced to a nano without your permission. I see discussions on this all the time. The owner is active let him replace the cache or change it. We all know it is historic but let the CO decide what to do with it.

 

Okay Did any one read my previous note? Well the one 2 earlier.

That damage to the site does not look like the work of some construction or government/civil surveyor.

Look at the so called cement..that mix is mostly sand. Who uses that mix but landscapers and people who don't have time to wait for real concrete to dry.

And would a official DO NOT DISTURB tape have been on a piece stamped or printed not hand written?

This looks like someone is trying to make it look a surveyor's job.

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Update....

 

The cache is now disabled whit a note from the local reviewer saying if it isn't done right it won't be done at all. No micro replacements allowed! I'm just wondering if this is some kind of new policy they have taken on muggled caches. They did the same thing to the ape cache in Washington once it got muggled. Are they imposing a different standard on older caches that the community feels "mean more"?

That is NOT a local reviewer. But he is right, if it says Regular it should be a regular. The Ape cache is a different situation and has been discussed. The Ape cache had an icon imprinted on it and if the others of the series were not replaced then neither could that one.

Edited by jellis
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I completely agree that we should leave forum discussions in the forums. I also agree that a "helpful" cacher should not have the right to change the size of the cache. I also agree the ape cache should have been archived (even though it was a huge loss). I just thought I would post an update.

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Update....

 

The cache is now disabled whit a note from the local reviewer saying if it isn't done right it won't be done at all. No micro replacements allowed! I'm just wondering if this is some kind of new policy they have taken on muggled caches. They did the same thing to the ape cache in Washington once it got muggled. Are they imposing a different standard on older caches that the community feels "mean more"?

That is NOT a local reviewer. But he is right, if it says Regular it should be a regular. The Ape cache is a different situation and has been discussed. The Ape cache had an icon imprinted on it and if the others of the series were not replaced then neither could that one.

 

So he is not a "local" reviewer but he is a reviewer who has disabled the cache (as it should be).

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I am sure the CO also has been approached by cachers offering to adopt. The CO is active but not an active cacher. He has already let two other old ones from that period of time go. In life we live and die and sometimes we struggle to hold on. But sometimes it is time to let go. This one has been attacked so many times in such a short period that I think it would continue to be attacked by someone, muggle or disgruntled cacher.

I wouldn't blame the CO if he decides to let it go. I haven't had the chance to visit it yet and was hoping to for a milestone, and like all others it would be a shame to see it go but they do happen.

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I copied a log from the cache listing (where it should not be). I think the idea has merit.

 

"Someone from Kansas should contact their Governor or Department of Tourism. They should be made aware of how many geocachers plan trips to go through Kansas because of this historical cache. Just sayin'! LOL Yes, I am one of them. Sorry, folks from Kansas, but I have no other reason to go there."

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I copied a log from the cache listing (where it should not be). I think the idea has merit.

 

"Someone from Kansas should contact their Governor or Department of Tourism. They should be made aware of how many geocachers plan trips to go through Kansas because of this historical cache. Just sayin'! LOL Yes, I am one of them. Sorry, folks from Kansas, but I have no other reason to go there."

 

But, most geocachers will want to find at least one cache or more per states to color up all the states they been in. So they will still go to Kansas.

Edited by SwineFlew
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Hiya - First time poster, long time cacher. Just thought I would throw a note to add to the hearsay.

I'm a Kansas based cacher, been a fan of Mingo since I first heard of it in 2006, I can tell you there is a significant effort being thrown into coming up with the most respectable way to maitain Mingo, but because I am hearing it seconded handed please take it with a grain of salt. A cacher here in Wichita works with companies tied to Kansas-DOT and got in contact with those involved. The cache placement is on public land, but has been consider to be affected by the exit work planned at the cache site. While the people tied to the potential road work there knew about Mingo, they didn't know the significance of the cache to the Geocaching community and appear now to want to respect that. This Wichita cacher is working with the key DOT personnel and cooridinating the efforts with the local reviewer and the cache owner to come up with a viable and long term solution for Mingo.

 

What I respect is Hemlocks' comment's on keeping the container a certian size. Mingo is being treated differently quite simply because Mingo is different. When we described Mingo - we would Oldest Cache in it's original container - and it's the second part of that that made the cache significant. You could visit the cache and read logs from the earliest days of geocaching and if you spent long enough searching you would see names from the world around that are names in our activity. In our little hobby, it holds a grand history - I would maybe not equivalent to but just short of the OCB or the Original Cache Plaque. For idiots like me, that means something. I tell people that my proudest achievement in geocaching was that in the 10 year anniversay event picture at Mingo - I am the one holding the container. So while I respect that people want to get any container out there to keep Mingo alive - Anything other than the original changes what Mingo is. You could knock down the White House and replace it with a residence that happens to be painted white, but I would have a hard time calling it "The White House" ("The New White House" I could swallow - but the name respects the history). Mingo can be replaced, Mingo can be redone, Mingo can be moved and made new again - but unless it is "Mingo" it just isn't Mingo.

 

Just my thoughts.

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Okay Did any one read my previous note? Well the one 2 earlier.

That damage to the site does not look like the work of some construction or government/civil surveyor.

Look at the so called cement..that mix is mostly sand. Who uses that mix but landscapers and people who don't have time to wait for real concrete to dry.

And would a official DO NOT DISTURB tape have been on a piece stamped or printed not hand written?

This looks like someone is trying to make it look a surveyor's job.

 

Yes, very good observations, and I agree. I'm usually the one who posts observations like that. And people probably do this when I do. ==> :rolleyes:

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Hiya - First time poster, long time cacher. Just thought I would throw a note to add to the hearsay.

I'm a Kansas based cacher, been a fan of Mingo since I first heard of it in 2006, I can tell you there is a significant effort being thrown into coming up with the most respectable way to maitain Mingo, but because I am hearing it seconded handed please take it with a grain of salt. A cacher here in Wichita works with companies tied to Kansas-DOT and got in contact with those involved. The cache placement is on public land, but has been consider to be affected by the exit work planned at the cache site. While the people tied to the potential road work there knew about Mingo, they didn't know the significance of the cache to the Geocaching community and appear now to want to respect that. This Wichita cacher is working with the key DOT personnel and cooridinating the efforts with the local reviewer and the cache owner to come up with a viable and long term solution for Mingo.

 

What I respect is Hemlocks' comment's on keeping the container a certian size. Mingo is being treated differently quite simply because Mingo is different. When we described Mingo - we would Oldest Cache in it's original container - and it's the second part of that that made the cache significant. You could visit the cache and read logs from the earliest days of geocaching and if you spent long enough searching you would see names from the world around that are names in our activity. In our little hobby, it holds a grand history - I would maybe not equivalent to but just short of the OCB or the Original Cache Plaque. For idiots like me, that means something. I tell people that my proudest achievement in geocaching was that in the 10 year anniversay event picture at Mingo - I am the one holding the container. So while I respect that people want to get any container out there to keep Mingo alive - Anything other than the original changes what Mingo is. You could knock down the White House and replace it with a residence that happens to be painted white, but I would have a hard time calling it "The White House" ("The New White House" I could swallow - but the name respects the history). Mingo can be replaced, Mingo can be redone, Mingo can be moved and made new again - but unless it is "Mingo" it just isn't Mingo.

 

Just my thoughts.

I disagree. Mingo is not in the same category as the Project APE cache. That cache was a special type, and the significance was the original container. Mingo is a Traditional cache, and should be treated the same as any other Traditional. The original Mingo container is long gone, so by your reckoning, should have been archived already. If the container for one of your Traditional caches goes missing, do you automatically archive it, or do you replace it? Mingo is no different.

 

Realistically, however, there are some logistical issues that need to be factored in by the owner, that aren't normally experienced by other Traditionals. Mingo can not realistically be replaced with a nano or a micro. The log would be full in less than a month. Due to the amount of traffic Mingo receives because it happens to be the oldest, it needs to be large enough to hold an adequately sized log, and have room for the inevitable large number of trackables.

 

Unfortunately, there seems to be someone who doesn't want Mingo to exist. If the owner is willing to keep replacing it, then that's their choice, and Mingo will continue. If they get tired of replacing it, they can decide to archive it. That is their choice as the owner, and there's no reason why the geocaching community should have any say in the matter.

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Unfortunately, there seems to be someone who doesn't want Mingo to exist. If the owner is willing to keep replacing it, then that's their choice, and Mingo will continue. If they get tired of replacing it, they can decide to archive it. That is their choice as the owner, and there's no reason why the geocaching community should have any say in the matter.

 

I have to agree. The problem with this in my opinion is that each time it has come up missing different geocachers have replaced it with whatever container they happened to have at hand so they could them claim a find. I understand the significance of wanting to find the oldest active geocache. But to place another container at Mingo or any other cache so you can get a smiley instead of logging a DNF (I would guess that if you replace containers to claim finds you don't log DNFs anyway) would seem to make a mockery of the history of the cache you are claiming to find and would bring into question the validity of your claimed achievements.

 

It is up to the CO to replace or not replace. It would seem like a cooling off period would be a good idea so as to give the person that keeps filling in the hole a chance to move on to irritating some other person or group of people. Continuing to replace the container as quickly as possible every time it is gone seems like it has just compounded the problem. If geocachers would let the smoke clear on this cache it might be able to be replaced and remain for a long time. But if people continue to put the act of getting their smiley ahead of what is best for the geocaching community as a whole then maybe it would be better if Mingo was permanently archived.

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Hiya - First time poster, long time cacher. Just thought I would throw a note to add to the hearsay.

I'm a Kansas based cacher, been a fan of Mingo since I first heard of it in 2006, I can tell you there is a significant effort being thrown into coming up with the most respectable way to maitain Mingo, but because I am hearing it seconded handed please take it with a grain of salt. A cacher here in Wichita works with companies tied to Kansas-DOT and got in contact with those involved. The cache placement is on public land, but has been consider to be affected by the exit work planned at the cache site. While the people tied to the potential road work there knew about Mingo, they didn't know the significance of the cache to the Geocaching community and appear now to want to respect that. This Wichita cacher is working with the key DOT personnel and cooridinating the efforts with the local reviewer and the cache owner to come up with a viable and long term solution for Mingo.

 

 

Maybe after completion of the Exit work the Kansas DOT could be convinced to allow the erection of a permanent monument at the site constructed in a similar manner as the original Mingo. A fund raising campaign could be started to "Save Mingo". I know I would be willing to donate.

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I copied a log from the cache listing (where it should not be). I think the idea has merit.

 

"Someone from Kansas should contact their Governor or Department of Tourism. They should be made aware of how many geocachers plan trips to go through Kansas because of this historical cache. Just sayin'! LOL Yes, I am one of them. Sorry, folks from Kansas, but I have no other reason to go there."

 

But, most geocachers will want to find at least one cache or more per states to color up all the states they been in. So they will still go to Kansas.

Visiting every state would be a pretty big trip. Mingo gets so many visits because of its status. More people can visit it than are capable of visiting every state, so that means more people visiting Kansas than other states.

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When we described Mingo - we would Oldest Cache in it's original container - and it's the second part of that that made the cache significant.... So while I respect that people want to get any container out there to keep Mingo alive - Anything other than the original changes what Mingo is.

The cache owner replaced Mingo's original container on or around 21 Oct. 2011. Here's the log entry. Most people still consider it to be Mingo, even with the new container.

 

You could knock down the White House and replace it with a residence that happens to be painted white, but I would have a hard time calling it "The White House" ("The New White House" I could swallow - but the name respects the history).

The White House was burned in 1814. Only some portions of the south wall were not torn down when it was rebuilt. I don't know of anyone who refers to it as "The New White House."

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Interesting... 2011/11/30 no mention of stake, but on 2011/12/08 there is, nothing mentioned on the 13th or 14th and complaint/pics on the 15th.

 

I can see that out of area folks might miss something, but does this seem to change a lot and quickly to boot?

 

Doug 7rxc

 

I'm not sure I follow you Doug. Could you explain yourself a little more please?

 

Thanks,

 

snoboardz

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I first logged Mingo as found back on May 19, 2002. I had planned on going back this coming May 2012 for a 10 year anniversary visit. I have faith that Mingo will endure this minor setback. We should try not to speculate what the reasons for Mingo's temporary disappearance may be. Time will tell. I would be willing to contribute to a "Save Mingo" fundraiser as well. I think many people would.

 

I am going to write a letter to the Kansas Department of Tourism and share Mingo's story with them as well as the superintendent of the Kansas Department of Transportation for this region of the state. Maybe the days of Mingo have come to an end, all things eventually do. At the very least I would like to see a plaque put in place to commemorate this most historic of cache's.

 

I created a pathtag years ago when Mingo had received only 1000 logs to celebrate the importance of this cache. Since then, the frequency of logs at Mingo has increased exponentially. I'm not saying that me creating this pathtag had anything to do with it, but I would like to think it helped spread the word about this monumental geocache. I am very glad I was one of the lucky ones to have logged it.

 

mingoblueprint.jpg

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Mingo is not just a bucket, ammo can, or tupperware at some coordinates; it was a particular type of hide (and grandfathered in for that matter, as being buried is now verboten). From the photos I've seen it was in a fairly open area other than the fence.

 

Yes, technically, the CO could hang a bison on the fence and call it Mingo. But given the nature of the cache and location, I feel like if Mingo cannot be replaced (and it seems that way since the hole is now full of cement) then it's sadly time to archive Mingo IMO.

 

If Mingo was an ammo can behind a tree, but the tree fell over and the ammo can was stolen I would feel it would still be functionally the same if a new ammo can was placed at a different tree 10 feet away. On the other hand, if the replacement container was a bison tube it wouldn't be the same and should be archived instead. A unusual hide should remain a unusual hide to stay the "same cache"; a generic hide has more flexibility to stay "the same". But replacing a regular-sized container with a micro is not the same. That's my personal opinion.

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I'm not sure I follow you Doug. Could you explain yourself a little more please?

 

Thanks,

snoboardz

I was just commenting on the logs for Mingo... Everything seemed fine at the early one, the cache was found as expected.

Then the stake was mentioned (I assume it is the one pictured later on), followed by what seemed to be again normal logs without mentioning that the cache was missing or cemented/staked. Followed by the pictures in the latest round. Nothing much more than trying to figure out WHEN in the timeline the cache changed. It certainly changed before the pictures were taken, so after the November 30 log. One would have to poll the following finders as to what they actually found. Does that help you? I don't think it will change much, but it might help the CO track it down a bit more... since we see that there are what seem at first to be conflicting logs. One question is of course "what was found in the middle logs?", a throw down, or did they find the cache elswhere near by... or just drive by and claim a find?

 

Doug 7rxc

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The thing that gets me about Mingo is that why does it need to be saved? There's nothing special about the location; it's a park and grab right off the side of a road. There's nothing special about the container except that it was a grandfathered buried cache. The Washington APE cache had a lot more going for it (unique container, special location, story) and it was archived. On that subject I'll just say that I don't think the APE cache should have been archived - part of the container had been replaced before, why not keep doing that as long as the owner is willing?

 

Just because Mingo is the oldest active cache doesn't make it better than the APE cache or subject to different rules. With any cache as long as the owner is maintaining it per the guidelines, it should remain active. That means when a container is broken or missing it gets replaced with as close to the same container as possible. If the location is no longer good, moving it a short distance may be acceptable (i.e. as long as it doesn't change the nature of the hunt or hide). When the logbook gets full another one is put in. It seems the owner is willing to do all this so let it be.

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I don't want to sound like a professor or break out the dictionary on everyone, but in my opinion Mingo is not buried nor has it ever been. Mingo sits in a hole in the ground and there is no digging required, so there is no need to say it's grandfathered or anything else.

 

Last time I checked most things that get buried usually get covered up with dirt.

 

If Mingo is buried then that ammo can you hid yesterday and put the sticks on top of is buried too.

 

Does anyone have an idea if Kansas Dept. of Transportation has been contacted or the county inquiring if they did it or directed someone to do it? Then in turn show them the geocache page for Mingo and ask them why they wouldn't want that in there county. If they still say no then they don't deserve all the tourists that I'm sure have visited many hotels, restaurants and gas stations over the past 11 years because of Mingo.

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Does anyone have an idea if Kansas Dept. of Transportation has been contacted or the county inquiring if they did it or directed someone to do it? Then in turn show them the geocache page for Mingo?

Yes, to all of those questions. KDOT has been contacted. Thomas County Highway Department has been contacted. They are favorable to the circumstances and are willing to help the Cache Owner.

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I don't want to sound like a professor or break out the dictionary on everyone, but in my opinion Mingo is not buried nor has it ever been. Mingo sits in a hole in the ground and there is no digging required, so there is no need to say it's grandfathered or anything else.

Here's the guideline:

 

If a shovel, trowel or other pointy object is used to dig or break ground, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not permitted.

My understanding is that Groundspeak intends that to mean geocachers cannot dig a hole to hide either the cache or a container that holds the cache. Even if finders don't have to dig.

Edited by CanadianRockies
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Having visited Mingo a couple of years ago, I have to admit that I got a feeling of accomplishment when I visited it. It is a real piece of geocaching history, one of the most popular caches in the world. It seems that the CO is working within the proper channels, both with Groundspeak and the state and county authorities to keep this cache active. Has anyone given any thought that the rebar, blue tape, and concrete are a way of the construction crews to mark where the cache is supposed to be located. That way when the work is all done, that marker will allow the cache to be returned to it's proper location. I also agree that anything other than the original cache container is NOT Mingo. Even an ammo can wouldn't do. I think that allowing this cache to be disabled while the construction work is ongoing is best, to prevent any chance of cachers getting in the way of the construction and getting hurt or vehicles damaged. The CO and reviewer should also be monitoring the log and deleting any posts that are being entered - there are three that were placed and refer to the micro container.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

Edited by ivhs72
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Did you see my reply about that doesn't look like concret but grout used in garden stone walkways. It's not rebar and the tape is handwritten. I'm sure real surveyors use preprinted tape.

I do wonder if its against the law to do fault survey work like this one. I am sure it all depend on which states you are in.

 

In college years, one of my teachers is a surveyor(I took a class for civil drafting for autoCAD) and I wish I got his email and see what he got to say about that re-bar and surveyor markings.

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To the poster about the original container: I know it's moot because this one's gone, but the original container makes a HUGE difference. We've found a few 10 year old caches, but only one in original container with original logbook, Hawg. There were printouts in there from the SecondToFind back in 2001 with rust stains on them. Definitely a priceless find. With that said, I think the history of geocaching for all of us who have picked it up in the last couple of years should be preserved. It sounds like that is the direction it's going for Mingo and that is a good thing.

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To the poster about the original container: I know it's moot because this one's gone, but the original container makes a HUGE difference. We've found a few 10 year old caches, but only one in original container with original logbook, Hawg. There were printouts in there from the SecondToFind back in 2001 with rust stains on them. Definitely a priceless find. With that said, I think the history of geocaching for all of us who have picked it up in the last couple of years should be preserved. It sounds like that is the direction it's going for Mingo and that is a good thing.

 

The Spot (GC39) has a hide date only 15 days after Mingo and still has it's original container *and* it's original logbook. It appears "Beverly" may still have it's original container as well (don't know about GC12).

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