Mission 9 Project Ape cache missing

[4wheelin_fool]

How does this sound. Someone come up with a replacment container identical to the original, put it in place and then log a "found it" and say "Hey, it looks like the cache thief brought it back out of the goodness of his heart. And he even filled it with some great swag!" Since there was nothing left on the original container identifying it as such then who could prove otherwise?

 

I already suggested such a thing, but since it's already archived it's highly unlikely that would happen. Since it was chained up already, I don't think replacing it would do much good. The plaque would be a good idea though, especially if TPTB made a new, but unique, icon for it and all of the other Ape caches that have gone missing. The icon is what it's all about.

[+grateful cacher]

I'll get my passport ready....

 

One thing to remember is that this cache is in a national forest, and one can't just go putting a plaque there without government approval. I remember when the tunnel was closed, some "cachers" jumped the fence and went to the cache anyway. That caused some ill will between GS and TPTB. That may have even factored into the decision to archive it rather than replace it. Yes, it's gone, but it will be remembered as one of the iconic caches of all times. There are other caches that are just as meaningful. Heck, head to Kansas and get Mingo......

 

Hey Rich DANG looks like Brazil is in my future after ET 2 and YUMA, and..........man when does it all end

 

Scubasonic

[+Markwell]

I vote for a plaque with no icon. Let's have this continue any way we can. And then it should be a bit safer from Cache maggots, and the maggot would not have won.

If that's the case, then just have someone (even Moun10Bike) place another cache there as a "tribute to the location where the last U.S. APE cache sat." Why have a plaque?

[+softball29]

In another discussion I commented that the APE cache really just represents "pixels on your profile."

 

Go to Washington. Find GCD, the oldest cache in Washington, just across the valley from the APE. Locate Iron Horse, it's closer to the tunnel anyway. Hike through the tunnel (once it reopens). Same great experiences, the only thing that changed is one less icon on your profile.

 

Hey, I love Geocaching history as much as anyone, but let's keep a sense of perspective.

 

Excellent post. My thoughts exactly. I still plan to come out that way some day. Heck, for Groundspeak and the original plaque is good enough. The old ones will be just as good, especially if I can go through the tunnel.

[+scottsfavoritegirl]

I am so sad the APE cache is missing. Darn those crazy muggles. I was so looking forward to doing this triad while I was home from Italy for 3 weeks. Now what have I got to look forward to? I think they should make this a virtual cache then those darn muggles cannot take it away from us. I understand it cannot be replaced because it would just be destroyed again.. I VOTE WE TURN THIS INTO A VIRTUAL CACHE AND GET BACK TO THE TRIAD AGAIN BEFORE I COME HOME FROM ITALY......... I think I will go to the gps site anyway and take a picture with my gps at the coordinates and call it good.

Edited June 15, 2011 by scottsfavoritegirl

[+briansnat]

Hey, on the bright side maybe the Geocaching Trifecta geocoin will be sold at a discount now.

[+Coldgears]

I am so sad the APE cache is missing. Darn those crazy muggles. I was so looking forward to doing this triad while I was home from Italy for 3 weeks. Now what have I got to look forward to? I think they should make this a virtual cache then those darn muggles cannot take it away from us. I understand it cannot be replaced because it would just be destroyed again.. I VOTE WE TURN THIS INTO A VIRTUAL CACHE AND GET BACK TO THE TRIAD AGAIN BEFORE I COME HOME FROM ITALY......... I think I will go to the gps site anyway and take a picture with my gps at the coordinates and call it good.

Sounds good, ask MountainMan if he'll let you log it. I don't see why not, the cache was so easy to find it's not like you would DNF it if the cache was actually there.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I am so sad the APE cache is missing. Darn those crazy muggles. I was so looking forward to doing this triad while I was home from Italy for 3 weeks. Now what have I got to look forward to? I think they should make this a virtual cache then those darn muggles cannot take it away from us. I understand it cannot be replaced because it would just be destroyed again.. I VOTE WE TURN THIS INTO A VIRTUAL CACHE AND GET BACK TO THE TRIAD AGAIN BEFORE I COME HOME FROM ITALY......... I think I will go to the gps site anyway and take a picture with my gps at the coordinates and call it good.

Sounds good, ask MountainMan if he'll let you log it. I don't see why not, the cache was so easy to find it's not like you would DNF it if the cache was actually there.

 

Sorry...no log book, no find.

[+Castle Mischief]

I am so sad the APE cache is missing. Darn those crazy muggles. I was so looking forward to doing this triad while I was home from Italy for 3 weeks. Now what have I got to look forward to? I think they should make this a virtual cache then those darn muggles cannot take it away from us. I understand it cannot be replaced because it would just be destroyed again.. I VOTE WE TURN THIS INTO A VIRTUAL CACHE AND GET BACK TO THE TRIAD AGAIN BEFORE I COME HOME FROM ITALY......... I think I will go to the gps site anyway and take a picture with my gps at the coordinates and call it good.

Sounds good, ask MountainMan if he'll let you log it. I don't see why not, the cache was so easy to find it's not like you would DNF it if the cache was actually there.

 

With the cache page currently locked by the CO, I don't think you're going to get much support for that. Not that you would get much support fro trying to log an archived cache as a "back-door" virtual anyway.

[+missbug]

I think the Washington State Geocaching Association has a responsibility to do as much as they can to ensure the cachers who logged 'will attends' to their "Going APE... All Over Again" event (http://coord.info/GC2Q7MF) that their plans will be fulfilled. Are they talking with Groundspeak?

 

I have emailed them to see what they say.

Edited June 15, 2011 by missbug

[Clan Riffster]

Sounds good, ask MountainMan if he'll let you log it.

While I have no doubt that MountainMan, (AKA: mtn-man), or his able bodied assistant, the venerable PuppyMonster, would, I have no doubt, formulate a reasonable answer to such a request, (either for or against, depending on his thoughts on the matter), the cache owner would probably be the best person to ask.

[+Desert-Dust]

I have assume there is more going on here than most of us are aware. I see references here to the container being at the heart of the issue but I will have to plead ignorance on that subject. But given that this event has been in the mill for a while and apparently a lot of people including myself have made plans around it and the Block Party. I was wondering why the rush to archive the cache instead of maybe disabling it till the event weekend, then replace the container and enable the cache for just that one day, then afterward archiving the cache? Just a thought.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Desert_Dust-aka-D_D

[+Redfist]

I have assume there is more going on here than most of us are aware. I see references here to the container being at the heart of the issue but I will have to plead ignorance on that subject. But given that this event has been in the mill for a while and apparently a lot of people including myself have made plans around it and the Block Party. I was wondering why the rush to archive the cache instead of maybe disabling it till the event weekend, then replace the container and enable the cache for just that one day, then afterward archiving the cache? Just a thought.

 

It was stolen. Poof. Goodbye.

 

It has been part of the definition of APE caches that when they disappear, they're gone forever. I wish it weren't so - I was planning on getting it THIS WEEKEND with my daughter for Father's day, but... I have to respect that they're being consistent with what they've done in the past with other APE caches.

[+addisonbr]

I'm fine with exceptions to policy being granted under notable situations. The ISS cache breaks a ton of guidelines, but I'm fine with it. The Original Stash Tribute cache is only 70 feet from a pre-existing cache, but I'm fine with it.

 

I don't think an exception here would be wildly inconsistent with the above. I'm not sure cachers of 7-8 years ago would have predicted the way cachers today feel about and behave towards this cache.

[+B+L]

Sometimes I think Groundspeak succeeds despite their best efforts. This cache became much bigger than just an ammo can under some rocks (as some have described it). Look at this log. How many caches could entice people to travel this far and then make this kind of an effort to reach?

 

 

Truely the craziest terrain 5 i ever had..... on our journey we had that goal, getting this one. The alternative would have been too crazy. We arrived in snowqualmie with snow. Our little Ford Focus did his job well. Arriving near the Ape cache, we had around 10cm snow on the road. We arrived late at night and had a good sleep in the car. We slept at the end of the Interstate exit.

In the morning we started the day with a coffee at Chevron petrol station. We searched for snow shoes without getting some. So we started to the ape. We did not reach the parking lot, because of 50cm snow on the road, so we walked. Getting to the railroad was very hard, because of snow, but all fun started here finally, we had around 1 mile to the cache. The worst mile ever!!! A water cave in germany was not the worst, this was the worst mile...

 

We changed every post on the left, the person who leads the trip. Every 20 minutes a cigarette break. Giving up - was no alternative, only dying I said to [removed] ... every step was exciting, how deep will the feet sank, 1 feet or 4 feet. After hours, we reached the big big ammo box and signed the log. Well having a little break, we thought, completing that trail thru the interstate. So we had an exciting way down the hill, only 500m, to the interstate. In the beginning, we sank around 5 feet deep, but in the woods, it was quite fine. Getting over the rocks down to interstate was another little fun.

 

Finally we had a great route and directly walked into the arms of the policemen, heyyy guys, what are you doing.... uhm hiking .... but on the highway, it is dangerous..... uhm yes, but the way to the car is little, so he let us walk.

 

Arriving in the car was great and we changed all clothes

[+GeoGerms]

I dunno, but after reading a bunch of stuff posted here and on the cache page I kinda get the feeling that TPTB know who it is that took it. Check it out here. Can anyone drop a name. Maybe, once everyone knows who he/she is, pressure from the community as a whole and not just from TPTB will change his/her mind. Just saying...

Edited June 15, 2011 by GeoGerms

[+grateful cacher]

The original stash cache was granted an exception to the distance guidelines to be placed so close to the un-original stash. But that is on private property, not national forest land like the APE is/was. I don't think the issue would be with the actual plaque, but getting forest service apporval to place it there. Relations between TPTB and the forestry people have been strained in the past, especially after the tunnel was closed and some cachers decided to jump the fence and use it anyway.

 

 

I'm fine with exceptions to policy being granted under notable situations. The ISS cache breaks a ton of guidelines, but I'm fine with it. The Original Stash Tribute cache is only 70 feet from a pre-existing cache, but I'm fine with it.

 

I don't think an exception here would be wildly inconsistent with the above. I'm not sure cachers of 7-8 years ago would have predicted the way cachers today feel about and behave towards this cache.

[jholly]

The original stash cache was granted an exception to the distance guidelines to be placed so close to the un-original stash. But that is on private property, not national forest land like the APE is/was. I don't think the issue would be with the actual plaque, but getting forest service apporval to place it there. Relations between TPTB and the forestry people have been strained in the past, especially after the tunnel was closed and some cachers decided to jump the fence and use it anyway.

 

 

I'm fine with exceptions to policy being granted under notable situations. The ISS cache breaks a ton of guidelines, but I'm fine with it. The Original Stash Tribute cache is only 70 feet from a pre-existing cache, but I'm fine with it.

 

I don't think an exception here would be wildly inconsistent with the above. I'm not sure cachers of 7-8 years ago would have predicted the way cachers today feel about and behave towards this cache.

Actually, as it has been pointed out, the APE cache was *NOT* on national forest land, it is on WASHINGTON STATE PARK land. The land it was hidden on was an old Milwaukee(?) rail road right of way that was deeded to the state for a rails to trail park. That is the reason for the existence of the nearby tunnel.

[+Markwell]

I see references here to the container being at the heart of the issue but I will have to plead ignorance on that subject.

 

See this thread from 2004 talking about if it's possible to adopt an APE cache. The linked post is what was established as the guiding principle for APE cache attrition. When the APE cache I hid was stolen back in 2006, I would have liked to replace the cache. But I now agree with the idea of just letting it die out. As I mentioned before (and I'm not over-exaggerating) I received hate mail from cachers when the cache was archived. That's why I asked for it to be locked.

 

But given that this event has been in the mill for a while and apparently a lot of people including myself have made plans around it and the Block Party. I was wondering why the rush to archive the cache instead of maybe disabling it till the event weekend, then replace the container and enable the cache for just that one day, then afterward archiving the cache? Just a thought.

See above.

 

I'm sorry to hear that people made plans to visit this cache with the Block Party. It's truly unfortunate*. But there something that bothers me. People are all fired up to go visit a great location (judging from some of the 2800 photos on the cache page like this one). They make pilgrimages to this locale to which Moun10Bike has brought us. Does it really reduce the worth of visiting this location because there's not a specific icon associated with getting there?

 

Go visit N 47° 23.514 W 121° 27.305. Enjoy nature. Have a great walk. Sigh deeply and realize that many other geocachers have been in this same spot.

 

Does it really all have to be centered around an icon?

 

 

*On a lighter note: It reminds me of National Lampoon's 'Vacation', where the Griswolds had so many hardships to get to Wally World and the Marty the Moose statue says "Sorry folks, we're closed for two weeks to clean and repair America's favorite family fun park. Sorry."

Edited June 15, 2011 by Markwell

[+Castle Mischief]

Sometimes I think Groundspeak succeeds despite their best efforts. This cache became much bigger than just an ammo can under some rocks (as some have described it). Look at this log. How many caches could entice people to travel this far and then make this kind of an effort to reach?

 

 

Truely the craziest terrain 5 i ever had.....

 

...Arriving in the car was great and we changed all clothes

 

There are other caches all around the world that inspire logs like that. I don't think that one is any better or worse than the other, any more or less deserving of "holy relic" status.

 

...except this one has an icon associated with it.

[+addisonbr]

Does it really reduce the worth of visiting this location because there's not a specific icon associated with getting there?

To a certain extent, all of geocaching can be reduced to this sentence.

 

I do enjoy going to these places more when there is a box to find, a logbook to mark and an online community to share it all with.

 

I may be in the minority on this, but geocaching brings me places that a simple list of directions to different scenic areas, and admonitions to enjoy nature, just don't. It makes me happy.

[+Adam and Lisa]

 

Does it really all have to be centered around an icon?

 

With all due respect Markwell, I think this is a silly question.

 

My wife and I have only been caching for a bit more than 3 years. During this time, and I'm sure it started well before then too, EVERYONE talks about doing the APE cache and the triad when any geocacher talks about their own geocaching bucket list. Mission 9 and the triad is/was SOLD to geocachers as the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself.

 

And now that it's gone the attitude of some is to essentially say: Chill out, it was just a cache.

[+ZSandmann]

The Terrorists won.

[+Markwell]

Does it really reduce the worth of visiting this location because there's not a specific icon associated with getting there?

To a certain extent, all of geocaching can be reduced to this sentence.

 

I do enjoy going to these places more when there is a box to find, a logbook to mark and an online community to share it all with.

 

I may be in the minority on this, but geocaching brings me places that a simple list of directions to different scenic areas, and admonitions to enjoy nature, just don't. It makes me happy.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy caching. Heck I've been around since 2001 and I still like doing it when I can. I've just shifted some of my priorities lately. I'm not driven by any competition to get icons or high find counts. There may be (gasp) months when I go without finding a cache, let alone logging my finds. To me the great joy in caching was that there are places in caching about which the locals don't know. It's like a secret message saying "If you go here, there's a really cool view." I look back at my favorite caches and they were ones that were sometimes locations in my backyard that I never knew existed, or places where I was on vacation and I learned or saw something that would never have been in a travel brochure. Either of these scenarios was because a cacher was thoughtful enough to place a neat cache in an out of the way location. I love that. Unfortunately these types of hides are getting harder and harder to find amongst the parking lot style caches. But that's *MY* problem.

 

I still try to look at caching not so much as a game but as an adventure. My job keeps me cubicle bound most of the week, and I love that I have a hobby that gets me and my boys out in the fresh air seeing nature and finding cool history. Logging caches that I find is secondary or even tertiary to the enjoyment I get out of being OUTSIDE.

 

Does it really all have to be centered around an icon?

With all due respect Markwell, I think this is a silly question.

 

My wife and I have only been caching for a bit more than 3 years. During this time, and I'm sure it started well before then too, EVERYONE talks about doing the APE cache and the triad when any geocacher talks about their own geocaching bucket list. Mission 9 and the triad is/was SOLD to geocachers as the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself.

 

And now that it's gone the attitude of some is to essentially say: Chill out, it was just a cache.

You know, that's really interesting. I've been involved with the APE caches since they first came out. Did you realize that this thread is the first I've ever heard of the triad thing? How about that? As to "...the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself" - I'd love to see the literature that states that. Sounds like a great marketing plan.

 

Again, I'm not discounting that some people are in it for the icons. I'm also not discounting that some people are in it for the numbers. I'm just of the opinion that Moun10Bike seems to have chosen and excellent location that - except for our little niche of people - is little known and overflowing in pristine beauty. Because of his great choice, several thousand people so far have seen a great part of the world. It's just that now, there's not a box at N 47° 23.514 W 121° 27.305 with a book that signing it allows you to obtain a special icon on a website. Everything I've seen says that it's still a great spot worth visiting.

[jholly]

 

Again, I'm not discounting that some people are in it for the icons. I'm also not discounting that some people are in it for the numbers. I'm just of the opinion that Moun10Bike seems to have chosen and excellent location that - except for our little niche of people - is little known and overflowing in pristine beauty. Because of his great choice, several thousand people so far have seen a great part of the world. It's just that now, there's not a box at N 47° 23.514 W 121° 27.305 with a book that signing it allows you to obtain a special icon on a website. Everything I've seen says that it's still a great spot worth visiting.

I'm planning on a trip to Utah to get Potters Pond. It is a great spot with lots of caches around it to be found. It only has a ammo can icon, just like all the other thousands of traditionals I found. If it gets archived before I leave the trip is off. It might be a neat spot with several neat caches around the area, but they aren't Potters Pond, they don't have the placed date. The APE cache is just like that. Iron horse might be a neat cache in a neat area but it is not THE ape cache.

[+geodarts]

 

Does it really all have to be centered around an icon?

 

With all due respect Markwell, I think this is a silly question.

 

My wife and I have only been caching for a bit more than 3 years. During this time, and I'm sure it started well before then too, EVERYONE talks about doing the APE cache and the triad when any geocacher talks about their own geocaching bucket list. Mission 9 and the triad is/was SOLD to geocachers as the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself.

 

And now that it's gone the attitude of some is to essentially say: Chill out, it was just a cache.

 

I agree that this cache was special in ways that transcended its origin as a commercial tie in to a movie that most of us probably did not watch. And the experience was tied to both the icon and its rather unique location. Still, for many the icon was the driving force. Would I have taken a long trip with three other cachers just to walk through the tunnel? Probably not. Although I would have put the location on my list as a possible places to visit on a family vacation.

 

Yes, Groundspeak gave Mission 9 special attention by creating a souvenir, labeling it as part of a triad, even selling a geocoin to that effect (just as they still sell geocoins showing the locationless cache icon).

 

But unlike the locationless caches or the 10 year anniversary events, the icon itself is still available, albeit in Brazil. So if that is what is important, the opportunity remains. And I am sure that the Brazil cache will become even more mythical now that it is the last in the world.

 

As to a plaque, I am not sure what it would commemorate - the second to last remaining cache that was placed for the Ape movie? As Markwell suggested in an earlier post, I would hope that someone place an ammo can there. That would be a fitting destination.

 

What was it that Joe Hill said before his death - don’t mourn, organize. Its hard to compare caching to what Joe had in mind. But if you want to ensure that the person who took this does not win, go out someplace and remind yourself of all the reasons why you like this particular game. And if you are able to do so, visit the area. Walk through the tunnel when it reopens. Find some of the caches on the other side.

 

People may have gone there for the icon, but I hope they left (as I did) with something greater, which is still to be found.

Edited June 15, 2011 by mulvaney

[+addisonbr]

As to "...the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself" - I'd love to see the literature that states that. Sounds like a great marketing plan.

Although I can't replicate the precise wording in quotes, and I suspect you're being a little sarcastic with us, this is the language for the Triad geocoin sold in the Groundspeak shop. It suggests that completing the Triad was a goal worthy of commemoration.

 

This GeoTriad Geocoin signifies a successful completion of a popular quest in geocaching. Geocachers come to the Pacific Northwest from all over the world to complete this quest. It includes visiting the 'Lilypad' (Groundspeak Headquarters, by invitation only), finding Mission 9 in the Project A.P.E. cache series and a stop at where it all started - the Original Stash Tribute Plaque.

 

Availability: In stock

$9.99

Add to Cart

[+dfx]

You know, that's really interesting. I've been involved with the APE caches since they first came out. Did you realize that this thread is the first I've ever heard of the triad thing? How about that? As to "...the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself" - I'd love to see the literature that states that. Sounds like a great marketing plan.

 

It is: http://blog.geocaching.com/2010/08/the-geocaching-triad-geocaching-coms-lost-found-video/

 

The Triad is one of the crowning achievements of geocaching. Geocachers must log three specific geocaches: the APE Cache Mission 9: Tunnel of Light, Groundspeak Headquarters and the Original Stash Cache. Each find is rich in geocaching tradition. The geocaches do not need to be logged in any particular order.

[Mushtang]

It's not "just an icon". It's not. The people that wanted to find it know it. The people that have already found one and now have something even more special know it. And even Groundspeak knows it.

 

I say that Groundspeak knows it because they're unwilling (rightfully so in my opinion) to allow the cache to be replaced so that the icon can still be earned. It's a special icon for a special series. If it were truly "just an icon" and it didn't really mean much then they would allow this one and all the other APE caches to be replaced.

 

But they know that it's special. It's a part of geocaching that by design was rare to begin with, and as they disappeared they became more and more rare and special.

 

So no, it's not "just a cache", and it's not "just an icon". It's a very special cache, and a very special icon. And that particular cache is now gone, the jerk that took it is loving it, and now the only way for anyone that doesn't have an icon to get one is to head to Brazil. That one is special too.

[+Adam and Lisa]

You know, that's really interesting. I've been involved with the APE caches since they first came out. Did you realize that this thread is the first I've ever heard of the triad thing? How about that? As to "...the pinacle of geocaching achievements by Groundspeak itself" - I'd love to see the literature that states that. Sounds like a great marketing plan.

 

From Latitude 47, the official Blog of Geocaching.com, says in a post written by a lackey, in part:

 

"The Triad is one of the crowning achievements of geocaching. Geocachers must log three specific geocaches: the APE Cache Mission 9: Tunnel of Light, Groundspeak Headquarters and the Original Stash Cache. Each find is rich in geocaching tradition. The geocaches do not need to be logged in any particular order.

 

...and again

Join thousands of your fellow geocachers for a once in a lifetime experience in Western Washington State, USA July 2-July 4. This weekend offers the unique opportunity to accomplish three geocaching goals at once: attending a Mega-Event, completing the Triad and earning two brand new special icons!

Edited June 15, 2011 by Adam and Lisa

[+Roman!]

My 2¢ worth. I have been caching and known about caching for just over a month now and had even planned a trip down to do the triad in July strictly for the reason of earning the right to buy the GC and for the icon and souvenir. I am not ashamed to admit that those groupings of pixels in my account are extremely important to me and I guarantee they are to many, many other cachers as well. Mission 9 was not any ordinary APE cache, it was the gorilla of APE caches in the sense that it was the only one that got you the souvenir and the triad, no other APE cache could do that. The decision to archive a cache once the container disappeared was made many, many years ago but the great thing about humanity, we evolve and just like this cache evolved into something so iconic so should we evolve and realize rules that were set so many years ago, before we knew what this cache would ever mean, can and should be revisited instead of making a decision that will affect thousands upon thousands of people in haste.

 

Sorry, that may be a couple of bucks worth, but I hope the powers that be reconsider, IMHO it is the wrong decision.

[+k7-wave]

I wonder if anyone has been up there yet to survey the situation first hand. The cache maggot may have been lazy. He may have not wanted to pack that heavy, cumbersome container down the Annette Lake Trail and risk being seen doing so by geocachers coming up. He may have just heaved it down the hillside. In which case it could be recovered, returned to the coordinates and unarchived. I know the chances are slim but it might be worth checking on. This cache means alot to so many.

[+fegan]

What?!

 

Some of the coolest caches are disappearing!!! APE...gone! The 4 Corners virtual...gone! My bucket list is getting shorter and shorter.

[+TotemLake]

You can say (and probably will) that I am only saying this because I've already got the icon, but I say the cache was about a lot more than the icon.

 

It was the last of it's kind in the US, the second last in the world.

It was nice that it was a hike to get there, through beautiful woods, and soon would have been a hike through a tunnel once again.

 

Still there's something more about that cache than the icon, than the hike and great scenery, than the metal container with the ape painted on it.

 

It may have started out as just an advertisement, but it has grown into a sort of geocaching mecca.

 

I really doubt that people were willing to spend thousands to get there from Europe for just an icon. It was more than that.

 

We need our destinations. We need our meccas. We need special places to travel to.

 

Maybe it's just an excuse to see new places, but in a way that's what all geocaches are anyway. A good excuse to get outdoors, explore and see something new.

 

These special caches get people farther to see something new.

 

 

I think we should try for a plaque.

If Jeremy says it shouldn't get the icon, that's fine. I have no problem with that.

Let's get the plaque anyway.

If people were only traveling for the icon, then they won't come. But if it was more, then they will still have their mecca.

 

I vote for a plaque with no icon.

Let's have this continue any way we can.

 

And then it should be a bit safer from Cache maggots, and the maggot would not have won.

 

We need destination caches.

We were pretty hard pressed to prove Moun10Bike had prior approval to place the cache there in the first place before a permit process was in place, and the process took over 30 days to permit the existing cache. The Iron Horse trail is a historical state park trail. You'll be even more hard pressed to get something such as a permanent plaque placed there. The ranger in charge was pretty persnickity with me through the process and only begrudgingly allowed it because Moun10Bike had the foresight 10 years ago to take pictures of his boss helping hide the cache.

 

Whatever WSGA is trying to do for this, I wish them the best of luck. If a plaque does get put in place, I will personally be at the location to greet everyone after their trek through the tunnel during their event in August (and I swore off that trail after the Geowoodstock event last year). If it isn't a plaque, I may be at the parking lot at the beginning of the hike through the tunnel.

Edited June 16, 2011 by TotemLake

[+grateful cacher]

The land it is on is part of Snoqualmie National Forest. It is surrounded by various NFD Roads, such as 2236A and 5590. In order to park at the Annette Trailhead, you need to have a Northwest Forest Pass which is issued by the USDA/Forest Service. The Iron Horse Trail is part of the the state park system, which does go through the national forest land. When I went to the APE cache last year, it was not located on the trail, but about 50 feet north in a clump of some trees, which was not a part of the trail.

 

 

The original stash cache was granted an exception to the distance guidelines to be placed so close to the un-original stash. But that is on private property, not national forest land like the APE is/was. I don't think the issue would be with the actual plaque, but getting forest service apporval to place it there. Relations between TPTB and the forestry people have been strained in the past, especially after the tunnel was closed and some cachers decided to jump the fence and use it anyway.

 

 

I'm fine with exceptions to policy being granted under notable situations. The ISS cache breaks a ton of guidelines, but I'm fine with it. The Original Stash Tribute cache is only 70 feet from a pre-existing cache, but I'm fine with it.

 

I don't think an exception here would be wildly inconsistent with the above. I'm not sure cachers of 7-8 years ago would have predicted the way cachers today feel about and behave towards this cache.

Actually, as it has been pointed out, the APE cache was *NOT* on national forest land, it is on WASHINGTON STATE PARK land. The land it was hidden on was an old Milwaukee(?) rail road right of way that was deeded to the state for a rails to trail park. That is the reason for the existence of the nearby tunnel.

[+psykokiwi]

I have been avoiding posting in this forum because so many others have spoken so eloquently on the topic, but finally decided to toss my little bit into the discussion. This cache is/was iconic in many ways. We found this cache early in our caching lives because people had talked about the greatness of it, and we are fortunate enough to live close to it. My son was fortunate enough to log this cache at the age of 5 (I created an account for him so he could have the icons of his adventures since he was with us each and every step of the way).

 

We were fortunate enough to see this great destination. When I look back on the journey, however, it wasn't the cache I smile about. I remember fondly the Mother's Day I spent with my family; walking in the woods, taking the wrong path, traversing the creek, and still ending up where we wanted to go. I think on the peace and quiet of the walk, the desolation, and pretending we were the ONLY people left in the world (hokey I know, but we had a 5 year old with us).

 

We are still planning on going to the location through the tunnel...the way it was intended. We didn't have that option since the tunnel was closed, but feel the JOURNEY is worth it. We didn't pick up any of the other caches in the area, so this will give us the opportunity. We know the cache isn't there anymore, but we still want to pay homage to it. Sometimes meccas become greater when the "thing" isn't there anymore (what a sweet revenge on whomever took the cache, for it to live on without actually still being there). The collective memories are still there; the collective journey is still there.

 

As for the people wishing it to be replaced, I share this with you. I have been to Jimi Hendrix's grave. Not the mausoleum it is now, but the original, simple headstone he was buried under. I have no desire to see the shrine they have constructed for him now. It feels too garish. I sat next to his grave and took a rubbing of his headstone using a crayon and a piece of paper I bought off of bum who stood by the grave to sell to us sightseers. I'm sure his new resting place is grand, and beautiful, but there was something so attractive of his simple headstone. My point is this; they can put up a plaque, replace it, whatever they want to do...BUT it won't BE...it will lose something.

Edited June 16, 2011 by psykokiwi

[4wheelin_fool]

I wonder if anyone has been up there yet to survey the situation first hand. The cache maggot may have been lazy. He may have not wanted to pack that heavy, cumbersome container down the Annette Lake Trail and risk being seen doing so by geocachers coming up. He may have just heaved it down the hillside. In which case it could be recovered, returned to the coordinates and unarchived. I know the chances are slim but it might be worth checking on. This cache means alot to so many.

 

That was what I was thinking. A good possibility that it's still nearby somewhere.

[+B+L]

The land it is on is part of Snoqualmie National Forest. It is surrounded by various NFD Roads, such as 2236A and 5590. In order to park at the Annette Trailhead, you need to have a Northwest Forest Pass which is issued by the USDA/Forest Service. The Iron Horse Trail is part of the the state park system, which does go through the national forest land. When I went to the APE cache last year, it was not located on the trail, but about 50 feet north in a clump of some trees, which was not a part of the trail.

Yeah, no.

[+Sol seaker]

In response to Markwell:

A plaque because I've been told that they think they know who took it and if a cache there is replaced or placed it will just get taken again. A plaque in cement would be a bit tougher.

 

In response to others:

They do not think it was a muggle who took it. They consider it a deliberate act. Read the rest of this thread for more info.

 

In response to another Markwell post that got much too long to quote and not take up the entire next page:

I agree with another poster. I don't think it's all about the icon.

I have found it. Why? Did I do it because of the icon? No. I did it because it was a cool geocaching location, like the Eiffel Tower. Why do people go there? It is a destination.

We don't have many geocaching destinations.

 

Why don't people want to go just breathe in the clean air?

 

If you had tickets to see the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and it fell over, and they had it all cleaned up before your vacation, would you still go show up to "breathe in the air?" Most likely not. You would most likely find other destinations. We don't have a whole lot at this point. This was one.

 

I already have found this, so I'm not upset about the archiving because I need to find this, I'm not really upset at all.

I do see that there are a whole lot of people who see this as their Tower of Pisa.

I had wanted to take some newbies there, just to have somewhere special to take new cachers.

 

We can go breathe in the air anywhere.

It's fun to have a special trip to go on.

People like great destinations. We don't have many.

[+DragonsWest]

The way that I see it, now that all of you have asked for my opinion, the APE cache is no ordinary cache - it is the experience. OK, some jerk stole the lid last year, it was replaced. If some jerk stole the bottom and left the lid, the bottom would be replaced and the cache would go on. So someone stole the lid and the bottom, simple, replace the lid and the bottom and it's still an APE cache - simples.

 

Archiving this is a quantum error. Groundspeak have to understand it's not about the technicality of the rules, but the spirit of them. Obey only the technical aspect of the rule you have cache owners having to archive their caches the moment they replace the container. Think the volunteer reviewers would like that very much? I think some have already read the riot act to cachers who archive their old cache and try to start a new one at the same location.

 

Let's be thinking people about this. The APE cache doesn't rise again, it continues with a new coat of metal and a new coat of paint. The heart of Mission 9 should beat on.

[nightcaching]

While it is no skin off my back one way or another I would think that treating this differently than the the other ones would be unfair.

Why treat it differently to any other cache? If the container is gone you can replace it.

 

And who came up with the "It has to be the original ammo box" in the first place? It's not exactly a fancy and very special container which has been designed and build just for the APE caches.

 

Just let local cachers adopt all of them if they are still within the guidelines for a traditional cache. Worst Case Scenario: You have like 10 more caches on the planet and a lot of happy cachers. I'd be interested why Groundspeak is so against reinstating all APE caches - there are only 13. What is the real reason for keeping them in the archive?

[+d+n.s]

While it is no skin off my back one way or another I would think that treating this differently than the the other ones would be unfair.

Why treat it differently to any other cache? If the container is gone you can replace it.

Why give it it's own icon/souvenir and make a big deal out of a large ammo can than?

It's not a traditional cache, it's an APE cache. They have their own rules. Their rules were made by Groundspeak. Apparently, having the original issued container IS what makes them ape caches. The way a stamp makes a letterbox a letterbox

[+briansnat]

While it is no skin off my back one way or another I would think that treating this differently than the the other ones would be unfair.

Why treat it differently to any other cache? If the container is gone you can replace it.

 

And who came up with the "It has to be the original ammo box" in the first place? It's not exactly a fancy and very special container which has been designed and build just for the APE caches.

 

Just let local cachers adopt all of them if they are still within the guidelines for a traditional cache. Worst Case Scenario: You have like 10 more caches on the planet and a lot of happy cachers. I'd be interested why Groundspeak is so against reinstating all APE caches - there are only 13. What is the real reason for keeping them in the archive?

 

I was opposed to the archiving of the other APE caches when they went missing, but that was the policy. There is nothing so special about this one that warrants a sudden about face. Yeah, I know, it was the last one in in the US. Yet the Maryland APE cache was the last one on the east coast. That didn't save it from being archived.

 

I bet if they did make an exception this thread would have instead been filled with indignant posts about about Groundspeak giving the cache preferential treatment because it was owned by an employee.

 

I'm sure the cache will be replaced. I think several APE caches have been, but they no longer give you special pixels on a screen. The experience is the same however and isn't that what this sport is all about? Does it make it less worthwhile if you don't get a special icon in your profile?

Edited June 16, 2011 by briansnat

[+jipow]

 

 

Why don't people want to go just breathe in the clean air?

 

If you had tickets to see the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and it fell over, and they had it all cleaned up before your vacation, would you still go show up to "breathe in the air?" Most likely not. You would most likely find other destinations. We don't have a whole lot at this point. This was one.

 

 

 

But if they re built the leaning tower of Pisa, would it be the same?

[+DragonsWest]

 

 

Why don't people want to go just breathe in the clean air?

 

If you had tickets to see the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and it fell over, and they had it all cleaned up before your vacation, would you still go show up to "breathe in the air?" Most likely not. You would most likely find other destinations. We don't have a whole lot at this point. This was one.

 

 

 

But if they re built the leaning tower of Pisa, would it be the same?

 

If they built it out of ammo boxes I think it would come close.

[+Johnny Rango]

Perhaps it's just me but isn't collecting the little icons and pixels as much a part of geocahcing as logging caches. And if you think not then direct your comments at GS, they are the ones who promoted it by making them available.

 

I think it's rather disingenuous of some cachers to dismiss what other cachers like just because it isn't important to them. Not only that it's rather demeaning and pompous.

 

Back to the subject, IMO, it would be nice if GS would allow someone to adopt the cache and restore it if for no other reason then not caving to a anti-cacher group. It's sort of like giving in to the demands of a terrorist. You gain nothing from it, give up everything and they still do their dirty deed. In this case those who wanted to find this cache whether for the little pixels or not loose and if the cache is not restored all cachers loose and the ant-cachers win by default. I would like to see GS get some back bone and stand up for the hobby. I've been to the areas around the placement of this cache, it's beautiful but cachers have no more impact on it than the hikers, photographers or any one else going into the area to enjoy it. I fail to see why geocachers should be singled out over hikers for instance. In the larger picture I'm sure hikers out number geocachers and it would be interesting to see by just how much. The point being these people (anti-cachers) have far more negative impact on the area than the number of cachers frequenting this area to log the cache.

 

As for special treatment, why would it be special treatment to allow someone to adopt it and continue this particular cache. If that is truly the case them perhaps GS should not allow any caches to be adopted or if they are then perhaps they should remove the smiley icons or provide some suitable sub standard icon for them. Of course that's absurd and I think the logic applied here is equally absurd or at least bordering on it.

 

How about it Ground Speak, have a little back bone.

[+DragonsWest]

It's already adopted - by Mr. Moun10bike. Ultimately he's the one to decide whether to keep it going or end the North American APE Experience.

 

In my personal opinion, if he doesn't want to maintain it he should turn it over to someone else who does. It's not about the tin can, it's about the location and experience - if it were not then all geocaching is is a GPSr aided bean counting game.

Edited June 16, 2011 by DragonsWest

[+addisonbr]

I was opposed to the archiving of the other APE caches when they went missing, but that was the policy. There is nothing so special about this one that warrants a sudden about face.

I'm not positive that it would be a sudden about face. Crab Creek was half a lifetime ago in geocaching terms. Almost 4 million geocachers have joined the site since it was archived - more than 80% of all registered geocachers, and none of them have ever known Crab Creek except as ancient history. The game is about twice as old now as it was the last time this decision was considered, and that's a lot of time for evolution.

 

I think part of those changes includes how people feel about this cache. I don't think the term "Triad" existed in 2006. But in the intervening years it has gradually grown into a "thing". Groundspeak's Triad geocoin was first offered for sale a couple of years ago, challenge caches started popping up, WSGA has been chartering buses to take groups to the trail head, Groundspeak started trumpeting the APE cache on the site as "one of the crowning achievements in geocaching" and used it as a lure to Seattle last summer... None of that was sudden, and none of it ever applied to Crab Creek. It was a completely organic evolution of how thousands of geocachers feel about Mission 9.

[+KoosKoos]

It's already adopted - by Mr. Moun10bike. Ultimately he's the one to decide whether to keep it going or end the North American APE Experience.

 

In my personal opinion, if he doesn't want to maintain it he should turn it over to someone else who does. It's not about the tin can, it's about the location and experience - if it were not then all geocaching is is a GPSr aided bean counting game.

 

This has nothing to do with the owner choosing to archive it. It's a Groundspeak policy to archive the APE caches when the container goes missing.

 

To Markwell a Markwell from this thread, it was discussed in 2004:

 

Thread

 

Jeremy post 1

Posted 22 November 2004 - 05:25 PM

I would assume that the container makes the Project APE cache, along with the neat spraypaint job on the lid, and perhaps the logbook (if it still exists). Though the container should be sufficient.

 

In our office we have one of the original (unhidden) containers along with one of the logbooks.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location ™

Edited June 16, 2011 by KoosKoos

[+addisonbr]

I'm sure the cache will be replaced. I think several APE caches have been, but they no longer give you special pixels on a screen. The experience is the same however and isn't that what this sport is all about? Does it make it less worthwhile if you don't get a special icon in your profile?

For whatever reason, I find the pixels do kind of affect how I enjoy and interact with the game. Souvenirs are nothing *but* pixels, and Groundspeak put a lot of effort into rolling them out.

 

I tried to get into letterboxing a while back, and the difference in pixels compared to geocaching dampened my experience. Things have gotten better since AtlasQuest launched, and I think it's led to greater enjoyment of the game by many - even though the core experience is still the same (solve clues, go out and find a box). The electronic experience *shouldn't* matter... and yet, I think it does. (I think part of why geocaching is more popular than letterboxing is the lack of an AtlasQuest for so long, and its current inferiority to geocaching.com.)

 

The APE cache as it existed was a neat shared experience for a lot of people.

Edited June 16, 2011 by addisonbr