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FTF Storm Brewing


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Like most areas we here in VA have our FTF hounds, and if that is your game I say God speed and go for it. My issue however is when these "cachers" disregard rules and regulations posted at public parks to get their coveted smiley. Case in point; a cache is placed in a local park that has very clearly posted hours stating that the park is closed one hour after sundown. A local "cacher" posts that when he gets to the park the gate is closed and padlocked, but he proceeded to have a "very pleasant night hike" and get the FTF.

 

My position is that this could be called trespassing, and at the least is giving geocaching a black eye and could easily result in parks now open to caching not allowing them in the future.

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Like most areas we here in VA have our FTF hounds, and if that is your game I say God speed and go for it. My issue however is when these "cachers" disregard rules and regulations posted at public parks to get their coveted smiley. Case in point; a cache is placed in a local park that has very clearly posted hours stating that the park is closed one hour after sundown. A local "cacher" posts that when he gets to the park the gate is closed and padlocked, but he proceeded to have a "very pleasant night hike" and get the FTF.

 

My position is that this could be called trespassing, and at the least is giving geocaching a black eye and could easily result in parks now open to caching not allowing them in the future.

 

IMO this type of person would do more than disregard postings just for a FTF. They would disregard postings for any reason more than likely. Remember any type of person can be a geocacher, not just ones that respect rules.

 

Anyway yes I think it gives geocaching a black eye, so you'll have to work extra hard by counteracting it with good deeds!

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Had a bit of a bru-ha-ha over one of my caches when it was first published. I couldn't believe I had to step in, like a father and tell everyone to place nice or I was going to start deleting logs. It cleared things up, but did underscore the passion some have for this (and the passion others have for thwarting the FTF hounds.)

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

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When the FTF is at stake, ethics do tend to take a back seat...sometimes they are even stuffed into the trunk to keep them quiet.

 

I'd bet the FTF DID know about the park hours, but it IS possible they didn't, and also didn't stop to read the sign.

Perhaps they entered the park via an alternate route where there was no sign?

 

Although it's not a good situation, it's hardly news.

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

 

Delete the log before that happens. Invite the finder to repost without mentioning the illegal activity. There is still time to keep geocaching from getting a black eye.

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No one wants GC to get a black eye. I would ask the FTF if he knew of the hours. Then ask him to edit his log and leave out the night time stuff. Not all CP's have the hours listed. Not all Parks have the hours listed. And as mentioned, sometimes you just miss the signs that are posted. Case in point: The other day I went for a cache that has been in a park for quite some time. So I was not going for a FTF. I drove all the way down this little road and parked. I looked for the cache, but couldn't find it. I then went back a few days later iwth a friend and as I was about to drive to the same parking spot my friend pointed out the sign that clearly stated "Maintenance Vehicles Only". I had not even seen it the day before. We did not drive down there a second time, and we still did not find the cache. Must be hidden really well.

 

Anyways, let's all play by the rules so we keep GC held up in a good light. Something else to think about is how many FTF does this person already have? That will give you an idea of whether he's a FTF junkie or not. Maybe he really doesn't care about hours. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Happy Caching.

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I'm not sure a storm is brewing. I suspect this type of thing has been going on for years.

 

Yep, no big storm brewing. Been going on for years. I still fondly (not really) remember around 2005, we had a few "very competitive" newbies in my area join up who would think nothing of going into parks at any and all hours for that coveted FTF. A few comments in the logs, and that stuff stopped, even to the point where these people were posting park hours on their own cache pages.

 

So, I don't know, try to bring it to their attention, but without creating too much drama, if that's possible. Because laws are indeed laws. And I've seen many a "in a park outside of posted hours" charges posted in the Police Blotter in the local community newspaper. None geocaching related yet though. :lol:

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

 

Delete the log before that happens. Invite the finder to repost without mentioning the illegal activity. There is still time to keep geocaching from getting a black eye.

 

I've had to do that a number of times. One cacher admitted that he ignored the no pets signs permitted sign and took his dog on the cache hunt, several have mentioned bushwhacking in parks where people are required to stay on the trails, a few have mentioned ignoring posted hours.

 

It's bad enough breaking rules to find caches, but mentioning doing so in your log is positively inane. Park managers do read these logs.

 

It's not limited to FTF hounds either, but the FTF frenzy does seem to encourage bad behavior.

Edited by briansnat
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Personally I think it makes the individual finder look bad. If they get caught tresspassing then they have to deal with the consequences of their actions. If COs get the appropriate permissions they make the park managers aware that the cache is on their property, it takes a little communication on the part of the CO to demonstrate due diligence for the agreement with that park.

 

When a cacher acts out beyond the guidelines of a cache, it really reflects on them, they look like a fool. Do you think that picnics haven't gone wrong or weddings or other things in parks? They are still allowed, and in the end only require that the guidelines be met.

 

I know that there have been some sweeping judgements made on behalf of some parks but that won't eliminate Geocaching, that's just silly. What it might do is make it a bit more like ECs where we have to prove our permissions before being published.

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One of our local cemeteries puts up snow fencing over the winter to protect a delicate area around a pond. There's a cache hidden within the fenced off area. Do you think that fence means anything? Not!! Many "found" logs were posted over the winter and some even indicated how they got through the fencing.

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

 

Delete the log before that happens. Invite the finder to repost without mentioning the illegal activity. There is still time to keep geocaching from getting a black eye.

 

Deleting the log won't matter if they have a watch on the cache, which is not implausible at all. Deleting the log won't delete the email in their inbox.

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I know that there have been some sweeping judgements made on behalf of some parks but that won't eliminate Geocaching, that's just silly. What it might do is make it a bit more like ECs where we have to prove our permissions before being published.

Sweeping judgments have been made by park managers in my area based on one single cache that caused any geocaching in that entire city to be banned. I'm sure it has happened elsewhere, too. Don't take this stuff too lightly. There are people that make decisions that are important to us that are keeping their eyes on us.
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Yeah, it seems like a pretty lousy habit.

This won't fix bad behavior, but I'm curious...

 

I know you can ask the reviewer to hole the pulishing of a cache till a certina date. Can you request it be published between certain hours? Is that asking too much?

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So if someone walked a dog after hours in a park it would be a good argument to disallow dog walking?

If kids were playing in the park after hours they should disallow kids playing in the park?

If the grass grew after hours they should disallow growing grass?

 

Yeah, after hours geocaching is going to make them disallow geocaching in the park. Makes complete sense,

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

 

Delete the log before that happens. Invite the finder to repost without mentioning the illegal activity. There is still time to keep geocaching from getting a black eye.

 

Deleting the log won't matter if they have a watch on the cache, which is not implausible at all. Deleting the log won't delete the email in their inbox.

 

You seriously think someone had a watch on a cache prior to FTF being posted?

 

I stated that it had the potential to give geocaching a bad eye. But since the poster didn't get caught trespassing by park management, I would suggest deleting the log before someone does come across it and ban caching in that park.

 

The CO could also update the listing to include those posted hours. That would actually help the park management feel a little more at ease even if noone had ever trespassed after hours.

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Couldn't the hider leave the reviewer a note asking that it not be published until daylight?

 

I don't understand how this incident has given geocaching a black eye. It definitely had the potential to do so if the guy had been caught trespassing. But it seems in this instance that geocaching dodged a bullet.

 

If a park manager (and not just one managing that particular park) read the log, they may very well form an unfavorable opinion about caching.

 

Delete the log before that happens. Invite the finder to repost without mentioning the illegal activity. There is still time to keep geocaching from getting a black eye.

 

Deleting the log won't matter if they have a watch on the cache, which is not implausible at all. Deleting the log won't delete the email in their inbox.

 

You seriously think someone had a watch on a cache prior to FTF being posted?

 

I stated that it had the potential to give geocaching a bad eye. But since the poster didn't get caught trespassing by park management, I would suggest deleting the log before someone does come across it and ban caching in that park.

 

The CO could also update the listing to include those posted hours. That would actually help the park management feel a little more at ease even if noone had ever trespassed after hours.

 

You seriously think they don't? :blink: Why not? If I were a park manager that was on the fence regarding allowing geocaching in my park, you can bet I'd be putting watches on other parks in my area. I would want to educate myself with what goes on in those places.

 

Yes, deleting the log would be a good idea. I'm just saying that it may not be enough.

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I know you can ask the reviewer to hole the pulishing of a cache till a certina date. Can you request it be published between certain hours? Is that asking too much?

Probably. The caches are published when the reviewer clicks the Publish button. Since most reviewers have jobs and lives outside of geocaching, they usually end up reviewing (and therefore, publishing) caches at night, when parks are closed. Asking them to publish it on a certain date is OK, since they were going to have to visit geocaching.com and review caches that day anyway, but asking them to do it at a certain time is unreasonable.

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Like most areas we here in VA have our FTF hounds, and if that is your game I say God speed and go for it. My issue however is when these "cachers" disregard rules and regulations posted at public parks to get their coveted smiley. Case in point; a cache is placed in a local park that has very clearly posted hours stating that the park is closed one hour after sundown. A local "cacher" posts that when he gets to the park the gate is closed and padlocked, but he proceeded to have a "very pleasant night hike" and get the FTF.

 

My position is that this could be called trespassing, and at the least is giving geocaching a black eye and could easily result in parks now open to caching not allowing them in the future.

A really simple solution is to ask the reviewer to please not publish the cache in the late afternoon or in the evening but early in the day. Include that if the publication has to wait until the weekend that will be fine. Most all reviewers will respect that wish and publish it early in the day. The the FTF zelots have to rush out at lunch time to get the prize and by evening when the park is close none are interested. Works for me.

Edited by jholly
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So if someone walked a dog after hours in a park it would be a good argument to disallow dog walking?

If kids were playing in the park after hours they should disallow kids playing in the park?

If the grass grew after hours they should disallow growing grass?

It is obvious from your examples that the problem here is having parks. If we abolish parks, there would be no problem.

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Yeah, after hours geocaching is going to make them disallow geocaching in the park. Makes complete sense,

I don't think anyone has made the argument that banning geocaching because of a single instance of poor judgement makes sense. Yet, it has apparently happened. Perhaps bureaucrats don't always use common sense when passing judgement?

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Sweeping judgments have been made by park managers in my area based on one single cache that caused any geocaching in that entire city to be banned.

 

So you are telling me that there is no permissions allowed for caches in your city? could you clarify and perhaps give a coroborating example?

Edited by Flintstone5611
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So if someone walked a dog after hours in a park it would be a good argument to disallow dog walking?

If kids were playing in the park after hours they should disallow kids playing in the park?

If the grass grew after hours they should disallow growing grass?

 

Yeah, after hours geocaching is going to make them disallow geocaching in the park. Makes complete sense,

 

+1

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So if someone walked a dog after hours in a park it would be a good argument to disallow dog walking?

If kids were playing in the park after hours they should disallow kids playing in the park?

If the grass grew after hours they should disallow growing grass?

It is obvious from your examples that the problem here is having parks. If we abolish parks, there would be no problem.

 

Interesting... I like it!

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So if the parks and other areas are used by joggers, bikers, pet walkers and kids using it as a shortcut all hours day and night regardless of posted times, why should the geocacher be any different. If there are homeless camps that the police and the park management know about and do nothing, then that place is open 24/7 for the tax payers. People have been going into parks and other areas long before any of us were born. This game is not going to change the world or those that are going to go where they want when they want. So until the rules apply to everyone the apply to no one.

 

Tobias

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Depending on when the person actually posted the log - you'd have NO idea when he/she actually went into the park. But since that person admitted he/she entered into the park when the gate was closed - what a dumb a**!!

 

So - with that being said... I'd write him/her an e-mail and tell them to change the log and remove anything that admits he entered illegally. If they don't change it, tell them...you'll have it deleted and have the FTF credit go to the next person.

 

Who knows....maybe this person has done this many times before? If that's the case, I'd have the FTF stripped from them immediately (somehow).

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If they don't change it, tell them...you'll have it deleted and have the FTF credit go to the next person.

 

Who knows....maybe this person has done this many times before? If that's the case, I'd have the FTF stripped from them immediately (somehow).

 

You can't do that! But I don't want to derail this thread.

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So if the parks and other areas are used by joggers, bikers, pet walkers and kids using it as a shortcut all hours day and night regardless of posted times, why should the geocacher be any different. If there are homeless camps that the police and the park management know about and do nothing, then that place is open 24/7 for the tax payers. People have been going into parks and other areas long before any of us were born. This game is not going to change the world or those that are going to go where they want when they want. So until the rules apply to everyone the apply to no one.

 

Tobias

 

It's attitudes like that this and a few others here that can cause problems for us. Geocaching is still relatively new and many of the authorities aren't quite sure what to make of it. Is it harmless? Is it a nuisance? Is it somewhere in between? I assure you that if we are seen as lawbreakers it certainly won't give them a favorable impression of the sport.

 

We only get to practice geocaching through the good graces of the authorities. If they view us as a nuisance, we might as well dust off our golf clubs, fishing rods and gardening tools, etc. because we'll be back to doing what we were doing before we discovered geocaching.

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Like most areas we here in VA have our FTF hounds, and if that is your game I say God speed and go for it. My issue however is when these "cachers" disregard rules and regulations posted at public parks to get their coveted smiley. Case in point; a cache is placed in a local park that has very clearly posted hours stating that the park is closed one hour after sundown. A local "cacher" posts that when he gets to the park the gate is closed and padlocked, but he proceeded to have a "very pleasant night hike" and get the FTF.

 

My position is that this could be called trespassing, and at the least is giving geocaching a black eye and could easily result in parks now open to caching not allowing them in the future.

A really simple solution is to ask the reviewer to please not publish the cache in the late afternoon or in the evening but early in the day. Include that if the publication has to wait until the weekend that will be fine. Most all reviewers will respect that wish and publish it early in the day. The the FTF zelots have to rush out at lunch time to get the prize and by evening when the park is close none are interested. Works for me.

 

I don't know how the reviewers cache publishing tool works now but a slightly more complex solution would be to add date/time picker to the the "Publish" button. That way a reviewer could put a cache on a publication schedule so that the cache is published at a specified date/time (with the default of publishing it immediately). That would allow reviewers to work in the evening and tell the system to publish caches the following morning, or at any other time. Caches related to events, or caches that are part of a series could be processed at the reviewers convenience rather than having to be at their computer at a specific day/time.

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It seems we're all assuming that the cache gets pounced on if it's published late at night and people want to snag the FTF. If you're a FTF hound and it goes up at 3 in the afternoon, and no one hunts it down, then what's to stop that same kind of person from going after it outside of park hours? I've seen caches go up in my area and be live for hours but have 4 watchers, then overnight a FTF pops up, meaning even though the cache was live, the FTF locals didn't go for it until the area was going to be muggle free.

 

My point is it probably doesn't matter much when the cache is published. FTF hounds are going to beat themselves over heads with blunt objects to be the first to get it, true, but that doesn't mean that they'll go after it ten minutes after it's posted either. I think we're putting too much importance on the publish date and time and not really thinking about the mentality that would make a person scale a fence, enter a park illegally, walk a trail with a flashlight, then search ground zero all in pitch black just to be the first to find a piece of paper they can add their name to.

 

Let's be honest, those people aren't going to be deterred no matter what Groundspeak does.

Edited by vincenzosi
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ONE SINGLE ACT of ignoring a closure sign (back in 2003 or 2004) caused the loss of access (for geocaching) to 14,000 acres of prime geocaching turf here in the Phoenix area.

 

Scottsdale's McDowell Sonoran Preserve

 

The scars have recently been showing signs of healing, and we MIGHT get to place a few under a permit system within a few more years.

 

Bans can happen.

Don't let it happen in your area.

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ONE SINGLE ACT of ignoring a closure sign (back in 2003 or 2004) caused the loss of access (for geocaching) to 14,000 acres of prime geocaching turf here in the Phoenix area.

 

Since most of us weren't around, could you tell us what happened? Which cache? How was the change made clear? Details, please details!

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One of our local cemeteries puts up snow fencing over the winter to protect a delicate area around a pond. There's a cache hidden within the fenced off area. Do you think that fence means anything? Not!! Many "found" logs were posted over the winter and some even indicated how they got through the fencing.

 

Let them be proud of their logs. Nothing is more unimpressive then when you read about someone bragging about their lack of respect and/or reckless disregard for environment.

 

On the plus side though, it does make it easier for everyone to figure out who the douches are.

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Depending on when the person actually posted the log - you'd have NO idea when he/she actually went into the park. But since that person admitted he/she entered into the park when the gate was closed - what a dumb a**!!

 

So - with that being said... I'd write him/her an e-mail and tell them to change the log and remove anything that admits he entered illegally. If they don't change it, tell them...you'll have it deleted and have the FTF credit go to the next person.

 

Who knows....maybe this person has done this many times before? If that's the case, I'd have the FTF stripped from them immediately (somehow).

 

If I was the cache owner, I'd sure be tempted to do exactly that and also make sure that the first person who found the cache while respecting the guidelines gets the honor of being the true FTF of that cache. :D

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One of our local cemeteries puts up snow fencing over the winter to protect a delicate area around a pond. There's a cache hidden within the fenced off area. Do you think that fence means anything? Not!! Many "found" logs were posted over the winter and some even indicated how they got through the fencing.

 

Let them be proud of their logs. Nothing is more unimpressive then when you read about someone bragging about their lack of respect and/or reckless disregard for environment.

 

On the plus side though, it does make it easier for everyone to figure out who the douches are.

If the CO is aware that the cache should be legally inaccessible during the winter/snow months due to the snow fence, why isn't the cache disabled/inactive during this time? Why have this temptation out there?

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One of our local cemeteries puts up snow fencing over the winter to protect a delicate area around a pond. There's a cache hidden within the fenced off area. Do you think that fence means anything? Not!! Many "found" logs were posted over the winter and some even indicated how they got through the fencing.

 

Let them be proud of their logs. Nothing is more unimpressive then when you read about someone bragging about their lack of respect and/or reckless disregard for environment.

 

On the plus side though, it does make it easier for everyone to figure out who the douches are.

If the CO is aware that the cache should be legally inaccessible during the winter/snow months due to the snow fence, why isn't the cache disabled/inactive during this time? Why have this temptation out there?

 

Very true. Keyword, "aware". Hopefully, they realized after one or two silly logs that their cache was now inaccessible for the season.

 

Temptation will always be there though, whether disabled or not, as some of my caches have been logged while in "temporarily disabled" status.

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Very true. Keyword, "aware". Hopefully, they realized after one or two silly logs that their cache was now inaccessible for the season.

 

Temptation will always be there though, whether disabled or not, as some of my caches have been logged while in "temporarily disabled" status.

 

Unless you remove the container for "maintenance".

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Very true. Keyword, "aware". Hopefully, they realized after one or two silly logs that their cache was now inaccessible for the season.

 

Temptation will always be there though, whether disabled or not, as some of my caches have been logged while in "temporarily disabled" status.

 

Unless you remove the container for "maintenance".

 

Climb over the fence in the middle of winter to get your own cache in attempts to discourage people from doing what you yourself just did? :blink:

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