A Debate--Looking for (herewego...) Opinions.

[+BaylorGrad]

All right. This is going to be one of those forum posts where I talk about my debate with another cacher, all the while trying to protect the identity of that other cacher. Not easy, but I'm going to try.

 

So here's the deal. I recently came across another cacher's notes on a few cache pages. (Caches that this individual does not own.) The notes often follow blank cache logs, and they are in all caps (LIKE SO). The notes are short rants about the preceeding blank logs--for example, one note said something like, "YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO GET 'TFTC!' BUT NOW YOU GET NOTHING AT ALL."

 

So I e-mailed the cacher (I can't find the e-mail--I didn't e-mail a copy to myself through GC.com) and explained that while I completely agreed with his/her stance, I disagreed about how he/she handled the situation. I said that while blank logs aren't preferred by most cache owners (including myself), GC.com clearly thinks they're ok because they allow them. So technically, if we ask a cacher to write in his/her log, this would be an ALR, which are of course not allowed.

 

At this point, this cacher sends me 3 e-mails, as follows:

 

(1)

Those that will find a cache and don't have time or thoughtfulness to make comments in their log are either stupid or lazy. The no log capability is available only for those using smart phones. Try making a log on a real computer and you'll find out that it won't go through if the comment block is left blank.

 

Following from Groundspeak Weekly Newsletter of March 17, 2011

 

Fun, After the find!

 

While the thrill of finding a geocache can make your caching journey a huge success, the geocaching experience does not end once you've found the cache. After the find is when the fun of interacting with the global geocaching community begins! You can flip through the logbook, read others' logs and look for usernames you've seen in other logbooks. When you add your own log, it is fun to let people know something about yourself - perhaps where you are from or something interesting that happened to you while searching for the geocache.

 

Similarly, you can often learn something about geocachers who previously visited the cache based on what they left behind. By sorting through the SWAG (Stuff We All Get) in the cache, you can get an idea of who has been there before. Keep in mind that you are welcome to take an item from the cache as long as you replace it with something of equal or greater value. If you find a Trackable in the cache, you may take it without placing anything in the cache, but you must be willing to keep the fun going by moving the Trackable to another cache within two weeks' time.

 

When you are ready to head back down the trail, please take the time to re-hide the cache where it was before you arrived and preserve the experience designed by the cache owner. Searching for a cache hidden as it was originally intended to be hidden is a much better experience than searching for a cache that has been moved or accidentally left out in the open.

 

Finally, have fun by logging your find on Geocaching.com and uploading photos from your adventure. Be sure to mark any images that might give away the cache location as "spoilers." Logs that provide a thoughtful description of your experience finding the cache are a great way to thank the cache owner for hiding and maintaining a quality geocache - and a great way to continue the fun after the find!

 

(2)

The following is an email that I send to each cacher that doesn't make a comment with their log. Probably doesn't do any good but it makes me feel better.

 

Hi, thanks for the finds logged on my caches, one things missing though, no comments logged on the logs, I can only presume that you are new to the sport, maybe you need a hand to find the ability to log a message using your phone app, I mainly cache using an iPhone now and its a simple matter of logging the find, then posting a message.

This has the effect of informing the cache owner as to how the cache is doing, for good and bad comments allow the owner to gauge the success of the cache. It’s good feedback which keeps the owner enthused. When there is no feedback, the whole sport is much poorer for it.

Imagine you entertained a whole bunch of guests with a great spread and at the end of the meal the visitors got up and left with no comment.

Or if sports writers who saw a great footy game and just wrote "I went to the game & watched it"--how would you feel if you actually watched the great game?

I know this is taking the examples to the extreme, but as a cache owner I think I have the right to regulate the comments or lack of.

One day you might even put some caches of own out there & you will see where I'm coming from.

What do you think? ------[Cache Owner's Name]

 

(3)

You might find this interesting, maybe not, but try reading some of the logs.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9618d972-39ad-46af-8608-254b92fa5a7c#

[The above is a link to a Liar's cache that was archived when ALRs were disallowed.]

 

- - - - -

 

In response to the cacher's e-mails, here is my reply:

 

[Fellow Geocacher],

 

Thanks for your replies. If you re-read my last e-mail, you'll notice that I said that I completely agree with you--at least twice. I agree that blank logs shouldn't be allowed. I agree that ALRs could be fun once in awhile. We are on the same page here.

 

What I disagree with is how you handled those blank logs. Writing frustrated comments in CAP LOCKS to new cachers isn't going to make them enjoy the game and want to keep caching. Sure, they're being completely lazy by leaving blank logs. But like it or not--Geocaching thinks this is ok. And that means that you--even as a cache owner--don't have a right to yell at cachers for doing what YOU think is right for the game. Now, I think your e-mail to these cachers is more appropriate than your aggressive notes on various cache pages, but it's still a little drawn out. If I cared enough to tell cachers to not leave blank logs, here's what my e-mail would say:

 

"Dear [user Name],

Thanks for searching for my cache! I just wanted to let you know that many cache owners think blank logs are somewhat taboo. You aren't required to leave a note, but letting the cache owner know what you think about the cache and what the condition of the cache is can be a nice courtesy from one cacher to another. Thanks, and happy caching! - BaylorGrad"

 

And that would be the end of it. At the end of the e-mail, you say that as a cache owner, you should have the right "to regulate the comments or the lack of." While I agree with you, Geocaching.com disagrees with you. To Geocaching.com, that's an ALR, and we both know what ALRs are--disallowed.

 

Once again, I am in complete agreement with you about your frustrations--but I think you could handle your frustrations in a different way.

 

BaylorGrad

 

- - - - -

 

So here's where you get to chime in with--oh how I fear--your opinions. I don't want to know who's "right" necessarily, but I would like to know if I have legitimate points, or if I'm just off my rocker.

 

Thanks!

[+scout_toujours]

I'm guilty of just logging the "TFTC", especialy on a power trail. I would never leave a blank log, that's a no no. If a cacher has gone through the effort of hiding a cache, it deserves a comment. It's yet to happen to one of my caches, hope it doesn't!

[+Warturtle]

In my opinion you handled it perfectly.

[+captnemo]

Those who choose not to write anything are missing out on some of the fun in geocaching, their loss not mine.

 

I don't go to the extreme either you or that other unmaned cacher do, but I do wirte a nice answer to anyone who leaves a unique log.

Edited June 6, 2011 by captnemo

[+Ecylram]

Groundspeak has been clear that they don't want the cache logs to become 'discussions'.

 

Couple that with writing logs that are not about the cache, but about another cacher's behavior...I'd urge against log entries like those.

 

Is this cacher deleting finds that have blank logs are is this cacher just ranting?

[+BaylorGrad]

Those who chose not to write anything are missing out on some of the fun in geocaching, their loss not mine.

 

I don't go to the extreme either you or that other unmaned cacher do, but I do wirte a nice anser to anyone who leaves a unique log.

 

I really like your glass-half-full approach!

[+BaylorGrad]

Groundspeak has been clear that they don't want the cache logs to become 'discussions'.

 

Couple that with writing logs that are not about the cache, but about another cacher's behavior...I'd urge against log entries like those.

 

Is this cacher deleting finds that have blank logs are is this cacher just ranting?

 

As far as I can tell, just ranting. I have no evidence that he/she has deleted any logs. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I don't know for sure.

[+BaylorGrad]

Double post--I apologize.

Edited June 6, 2011 by BaylorGrad

[knowschad]

Boy, tough call. You are both right, and in my opinion Groundspeak has it TOTALLY wrong. Blank logs should NOT be allowed, via smartphone or by any other method. I can understand their logic... how do you police it. If you disallow blank lots, what do you do about a log that says, simply, "XYZZY"? But at least they could take a stance.

 

You, IMO, are correct that your cache owner is probably not making a huge difference with those logs, but he has a better chance of making at least some difference than if he were to totally shut up about it, right? I do think we need to educate, but that is probably not a very effective means of education.

[AZcachemeister]

a. If they are your caches, I would delete the extraneous notes. It's no one else's business what logs you allow on your cache page. Since you are aware that Groundspeak condones blank logs, I won't even go there.

 

b. If they are not your caches, then you have no concern in the matter. Butt out.

[+Coldgears]

I normally write paragraph's in my logs. Seriously, I can find a way to turn an LPC into a 10+ sentence log. I just love writing about my stories, I'm sure many of you noticed that by now, as I post many of my stories here. At the same time, I have to agree with you, people should be allowed to do blank logs if they wish, afterall Groundspeak allows it. What I don't agree with is your decision to E-mail him, let him do what he wants arguing is never a good thing.

[+BaylorGrad]

I normally write paragraph's in my logs. Seriously, I can find a way to turn an LPC into a 10+ sentence log. I just love writing about my stories, I'm sure many of you noticed that by now, as I post many of my stories here. At the same time, I have to agree with you, people should be allowed to do blank logs if they wish, afterall Groundspeak allows it. What I don't agree with is your decision to E-mail him, let him do what he wants arguing is never a good thing.

 

Thanks for your reply Coldgears. I wouldn't say I'm arguing with the other cacher--although I guess I am--I'm just giving my opinion, which stands in contrast to his/hers... I guess that is the definition of arguing, huh?

 

I completely understand that my decision to e-mail him/her is questionable. When I decided to e-mail this cacher, I did so with the intention of helping other cachers avoid his chastising. You never know, my words might change his/her ways. Maybe not, but nothing ever gets accomplished if you don't speak up, right?

[AZcachemeister]

The only way to post a TOTALLY, COMPLETELY blank log is via the iPhone app.

A '.', or 'TFTC' isn't much better, but at least you know there was an actual person on the other end of that '.'.

[+DanOCan]

I think the person posting Notes to the cache page is wrong since the cache page is not to be used for discussion purposes. The whole thing smells of grandstanding since the person posting the blank log is likely to never see it anyway -- they've moved on to the next cache.

 

If nothing else, by handling your discussion via email you are at least using the proper channel. Whether or not your attempts at changing the Note Poster's behavior is any better/worse than the Note Poster trying to change the behavior of the blank loggers depends entirely on which side of the blank log debate one falls.

 

I've given up trying to change other cachers. Unless they are doing something that is harmful to the game or has a negative impact on me I tend to ignore it. If someone were to "blank log" one of my caches I'd simply wait for the next good log to arrive.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Wow. Serious control issues.

[TheH2s]

Boy, tough call. You are both right, and in my opinion Groundspeak has it TOTALLY wrong. Blank logs should NOT be allowed, via smartphone or by any other method. I can understand their logic... how do you police it. If you disallow blank lots, what do you do about a log that says, simply, "XYZZY"? But at least they could take a stance.

 

You, IMO, are correct that your cache owner is probably not making a huge difference with those logs, but he has a better chance of making at least some difference than if he were to totally shut up about it, right? I do think we need to educate, but that is probably not a very effective means of education.

 

I agree. It seems that both responses are valid. If it is a no-no then Groundspeak should shut it down. Until then some people will take the easy way out and not do anything.

 

I like to play video games online and this is similar to that. If the developer accidently puts a glitch in the game that makes some overpowered over others it isn't really considered cheating. Is it frowned upon by the community? Yes, but it isn't cheating.

 

Personally I log every visit with at least TFTC, but if they allow blank comments then you can't blame people for doing it.

[Mr.Yuck]

In my opinion you handled it perfectly.

 

Mine too. You make excellent points to the guy, how could he possibly even debate it? I might have ranted once or twice about the "logging from a smartphone in the field" trend, eh? Knower of Chad, in a looked thread, has shown recently that totally blank logs are still pretty rare. But "TFTC", or 5 word or less logs thumbed out from the field are absolutely rampant. Now I might voice my opinion here, but I'd never post notes to other people's cache pages. On the other hand, I probably would never have emailed the Crusader, either. I suppose I have a hands-off policy on that sort of stuff.

 

A pointless excerise for this guy anyways. You think a smartphone blank logger is ever going to visit a cache page again? Heck, I'll bet in some cases they don't even know there's a cache page they can look at on a computer.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I think the OP handled it pretty diplomatically and I pretty much agree with their feelings on the matter.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Joshism

[+mikemtn]

I would be happy if everybody that finds my cache would log it online.

[+A & J Tooling]

I DON'T SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS?!? ENLIGHTEN ME!

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Since the offending Notes were not on the OPs caches, I don't see why he got involved at all.

[+deercreekth]

There's probably not much point in the way he posted notes on the cache pages. Someone who doesn't bother to write a log probably isn't going to bother to revisit the cache page or put a cache on their watchlist, so they'll never see the note.

 

You've definitely got legitimate points.

[Clan Riffster]

Whilst we're whipping out our opinions, here's mine.

Grad, I mostly agree with both you and the mystery antagonist.

But I like your solution better than his.

He just seemed a little too worked up over the issue.

[+StarBrand]

It sends a strong message - but not quite the right message.

 

I simply send a note like:

 

"I saw you found my "xxxxxxxx" cache near YYYYY. It appears that you inadvertently logged it with a completely blank 'find' log. While that is certainly allowed by the system, most cache owners appreciate a few words about your experience in any type of online log. I hope you enjoyed finding my cache and will take a moment to go back and edit/replace your your original log. Have fun and be safe while caching!!"

 

Its worked with all but 1 cacher so far.

[+radak9]

I recently came across another cacher's notes on a few cache pages. (Caches that this individual does not own.) The notes often follow blank cache logs,

Is he leaving these notes on cache pages that he is not the owner of? To me, that takes a turn on the discussion.

[+hukilaulau]

I pretty much agree with the majority here.

Notes on a cache page about someone else's logging habits are inappropriate.

Blank logs are disappointing.

 

And adding these two thoughts:

Some 'cut and paste" logs are worse than blank logs, if they leave some misperception about the cache.

If my first few hides had gotten a bunch of blank logs, I would have stopped hiding caches. It was the nice comments from local cachers that encouraged me to keep doing it.

[+ventura_kids]

Sorry...but I actually didn't even read your entire post....it was too long.

That's my opinion.

 

A find is a find, no matter how short the log is.

Remember that the on-line system was developed to help Finders keep track of which caches they have found. That's all.

 

[mresoteric]

(Caches that this individual does not own.)

 

The forums are the place to debate this stuff.

 

If the guy owned the caches he was making the notes on, I'd say let it go. We're not supposed to turn listings into debates so he would be risking his own cache listing by doing so.

 

But since he's leaving these notes on someone else's caches, then he's crossing the line. It's not really his place to police someone else's cache and/or logs on those caches.

[sabrefan7]

Why are you letting notes on a cache page that you don't own your self bother you?

[mresoteric]

The great thing about these forums is that often the opinions you get are not the ones you were seeking.

[+BaylorGrad]

Since the offending Notes were not on the OPs caches, I don't see why he got involved at all.

 

I got involved on behalf of the cachers who were yelled at. Interestingly, the cachers who were yelled at haven't logged any finds since being yelled at. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. If I was a cacher with 5-7 finds, and someone with 1-4,000 logs was yelling at me on the cache pages for what they deemed inappropriate, I probably wouldn't want to log my finds either.

 

So, whether you believe I should have spoken up or not, I did so because I felt like the individual was bringing the entire caching community down through his/her behavior, and I don't plan on standing by and watching.

[+BaylorGrad]

It sends a strong message - but not quite the right message.

 

I simply send a note like:

 

"I saw you found my "xxxxxxxx" cache near YYYYY. It appears that you inadvertently logged it with a completely blank 'find' log. While that is certainly allowed by the system, most cache owners appreciate a few words about your experience in any type of online log. I hope you enjoyed finding my cache and will take a moment to go back and edit/replace your your original log. Have fun and be safe while caching!!"

 

Its worked with all but 1 cacher so far.

 

Thanks Starbrand--I think that's an excellent way to handle blank logs. No passive-aggressive language--only a genuine desire to help the other cacher learn more about the game.

[+BaylorGrad]

I recently came across another cacher's notes on a few cache pages. (Caches that this individual does not own.) The notes often follow blank cache logs,

Is he leaving these notes on cache pages that he is not the owner of? To me, that takes a turn on the discussion.

 

Yes--that is correct.

[+BaylorGrad]

Why are you letting notes on a cache page that you don't own your self bother you?

 

See reply #31, above.

[+BaylorGrad]

The great thing about these forums is that often the opinions you get are not the ones you were seeking.

 

I'm actually not seeking opinions that agree or disagree with me--as hard as that may be to believe. I legitimately want to know what the caching community thinks of the situation. If everyone thinks I should have kept my d--- mouth shut, so be it. I'm looking for honesty--I'm not here on an agenda.

[mresoteric]

The great thing about these forums is that often the opinions you get are not the ones you were seeking.

 

I'm actually not seeking opinions that agree or disagree with me--as hard as that may be to believe. I legitimately want to know what the caching community thinks of the situation. If everyone thinks I should have kept my d--- mouth shut, so be it. I'm looking for honesty--I'm not here on an agenda.

 

In that case, you should have kept your d--- mouth shut. LOL

 

Seriously though, I would stay out of it. It seems like an issue for the cache owners and perhaps Groundspeak, since the guy's logs are essentially using the listing for discussion.

[+BaylorGrad]

The great thing about these forums is that often the opinions you get are not the ones you were seeking.

 

I'm actually not seeking opinions that agree or disagree with me--as hard as that may be to believe. I legitimately want to know what the caching community thinks of the situation. If everyone thinks I should have kept my d--- mouth shut, so be it. I'm looking for honesty--I'm not here on an agenda.

 

In that case, you should have kept your d--- mouth shut. LOL

 

Seriously though, I would stay out of it. It seems like an issue for the cache owners and perhaps Groundspeak, since the guy's logs are essentially using the listing for discussion.

 

Haha, thank you for your honesty! Since the cacher hasn't replied to my second e-mail, I will very likely be keeping my d--- mouth shut!

[+DanOCan]

I'm actually not seeking opinions that agree or disagree with me--as hard as that may be to believe. I legitimately want to know what the caching community thinks of the situation. If everyone thinks I should have kept my d--- mouth shut, so be it. I'm looking for honesty--I'm not here on an agenda.

 

So refreshing! Normally people who come to the forums to "seek opinion" really mean "Tell me I was right."

[+gpicard]

In my opinion you did the right thing by communicating with the note-giver. You also did it privately via email vs broadcasting in a 'cache counter-note'.

 

As part of the geocaching community, I believe we should all do our best to make the game better. I like several of the suggested comments to blank-loggers.

[+GeoGeeBee]

The great thing about these forums is that often the opinions you get are not the ones you were seeking.

 

I'm actually not seeking opinions that agree or disagree with me--as hard as that may be to believe. I legitimately want to know what the caching community thinks of the situation. If everyone thinks I should have kept my d--- mouth shut, so be it. I'm looking for honesty--I'm not here on an agenda.

Ooops! I totally misunderstood what I read. I thought you were the one putting the notes on the cache pages. Please ignore my previous comment!

 

I think you handled the situation well. I probably wouldn't have done it, but I can't fault you for doing it.

Edited June 7, 2011 by GeoGeeBee

[+Gamaliel]

I like to play video games online and this is similar to that. If the developer accidently puts a glitch in the game that makes some overpowered over others it isn't really considered cheating. Is it frowned upon by the community? Yes, but it isn't cheating.

 

I don't have extensive online gaming experience, but I know that Xbox Live does consider it cheating when you take advantage of a game exploit like being able to hide inside of a solid rock or cheats that give you unlimited ammo. When you report those folks, they mysteriously disappear soon afterwards.

[+Gamaliel]

I don't care what they write, but if they leave a blank log, a period, or a bunch of random letters, how am I supposed to know if that is a genuine log or a cat walking across their keyboard? If I ever found one of those on my caches I'd probably delete it thinking it was an error, just like I delete duplicate logs.

[sabrefan7]

Why are you letting notes on a cache page that you don't own your self bother you?

 

See reply #31, above.

Allrighty then, Good Deal! Did you sent a note to the "offenders"? If they are local,maybe ask them to go out with you and dont let blowhards bother them

[+BaylorGrad]

Why are you letting notes on a cache page that you don't own your self bother you?

 

See reply #31, above.

Allrighty then, Good Deal! Did you sent a note to the "offenders"? If they are local,maybe ask them to go out with you and dont let blowhards bother them

 

Nope, didn't send a note to the individuals who wrote the blank logs. Honestly, as much as I dislike blank logs, I'm not enough of an activist to tell people not to enter blank logs--especially when it isn't my cache anyway.