SurveyCoordinates to GPS Coordinates

[jasman444]

We have a Garmin VentureHC eTex gps.

We have some acreage (55)in Haliburton Ontario with a good survey map.

The gps seems to want two sets of compass info where the survey map only provides one.

The map indicates N87degrees34'30"E the gps wants two sets of coordinates.

We would love to be able to take the kids out to geocach our own property.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

john

[+sword fern]

We have a Garmin VentureHC eTex gps.

We have some acreage (55)in Haliburton Ontario with a good survey map.

The gps seems to want two sets of compass info where the survey map only provides one.

The map indicates N87degrees34'30"E the gps wants two sets of coordinates.

We would love to be able to take the kids out to geocach our own property.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

john

 

What you want is coordinates in WGS84 format. YOu are looking at something else.

[+pppingme]

Coordinates are always two sets of "numbers".

 

One (preceded by either an E or W for east/west, or sometimes expressed as a positive (for E) or negative (for W), will describe (in degrees) how far you are from the prime meridian.

 

The second (preceded by N or S for north or south, or positive for N, negative for S) describes how far you are from the equator.

 

The coordinates you have show how far north the map is (87 degrees, 34 minutes and 30 seconds (a minute is 1/60 of a degree, and a second is 1/60 of a minute), but no indication of how far east or west, it looks like (since it ends with an "e") that the text got cut off. Without looking at a map, that would sound about right for something in Canada.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Potato Finder

[AZcachemeister]

Your local survey co-ordinates are most likely in a format that is difficult (to say the least) to convert to 'regular' co-ordinates. Perhaps a local surveyor could be of help, or you might get some assistance in the Benchmarking forums where we deal with these kind of issues from time to time.

[+Cardinal Red]

We have a Garmin VentureHC eTex gps.

We have some acreage (55)in Haliburton Ontario with a good survey map.

The gps seems to want two sets of compass info where the survey map only provides one.

The map indicates N87degrees34'30"E the gps wants two sets of coordinates.

We would love to be able to take the kids out to geocach our own property.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

john

Hi John

 

What you have posted here are NOT coordinates. You also have not supplied the complete information (there is a distance component missing such as 237.45' somewhere on that line). Well, here in the US it would be yards. Yours could very well be in Meters. The N87degrees34'30"E means that particular line on your property boundary is 87 Degrees 34' 30" clockwise of NORTH. If that last letter was a "W" it would have been CCW. Weather that reference is from TRUE North or MAGNETIC North is an interesting question. My limited experience (I am NOT a surveyor) has been from a MAGNETIC North reference. That really doesn't make sense because the magnetic declination changes over time. I would try a program which compares declination from say 50 years ago to today to make the necessary correction if needed. But I have gotten some feedback insisting it must be referenced to TRUE North even though that usually doesn't match what I find on the ground.

 

So the line you have asked about runs a certain distance which you have not provided in very nearly an EAST / WEST direction. except that possibly it needs to have Magnetic Declination correction taken into account. Does that make any sense so far?

 

Every line designation will start with an "N" or "S" and end with an "E" or "W". That determines which quadrant it is projecting into: "NE", "NW", "SE", or "SW".

 

In order for me to figure this out for you I would need every one of those Line Calls in Degrees, Minutes, and Seconds along with the associated Lengths. Then having known GPS coordinates (and Datum) for two connection points and specifying exactly which of those connection points have the GPS coords tagged to them should make it a breeze to calculae. If you want to test my theory, send me the data and I'll get back to you. Unless I have done such a good job of explaining it that you can figure it out on your own. Let me know.

 

quick edits to better clarify one point and fix one typo. I hope it's good now.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Cardinal Red

[+GeoGeeBee]

Cardinal Red gave the best explanation. What you have is part of a legal description of a property. It starts from a known landmark, and describes the boundaries of the property by giving directions and distances. Unless you know the exact coordinates of the starting point, it's not possible to convert to GPS coordinates.

 

For more info on how the system works, check out this Wikipedia article:

Metes and Bounds

[+mountainman38]

We have a Garmin VentureHC eTex gps.

We have some acreage (55)in Haliburton Ontario with a good survey map.

The gps seems to want two sets of compass info where the survey map only provides one.

The map indicates N87degrees34'30"E the gps wants two sets of coordinates.

We would love to be able to take the kids out to geocach our own property.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

john

Hi John

 

What you have posted here are NOT coordinates. You also have not supplied the complete information (there is a distance component missing such as 237.45' somewhere on that line). Well, here in the US it would be yards. Yours could very well be in Meters. The N87degrees34'30"E means that particular line on your property boundary is 87 Degrees 34' 30" clockwise of NORTH. If that last letter was a "W" it would have been CCW. Weather that reference is from TRUE North or MAGNETIC North is an interesting question. My limited experience (I am NOT a surveyor) has been from a MAGNETIC North reference. That really doesn't make sense because the magnetic declination changes over time. I would try a program which compares declination from say 50 years ago to today to make the necessary correction if needed. But I have gotten some feedback insisting it must be referenced to TRUE North even though that usually doesn't match what I find on the ground.

 

So the line you have asked about runs a certain distance which you have not provided in very nearly an EAST / WEST direction. except that possibly it needs to have Magnetic Declination correction taken into account. Does that make any sense so far?

 

Every line designation will start with an "N" or "S" and end with an "E" or "W". That determines which quadrant it is projecting into: "NE", "NW", "SE", or "SW".

 

In order for me to figure this out for you I would need every one of those Line Calls in Degrees, Minutes, and Seconds along with the associated Lengths. Then having known GPS coordinates (and Datum) for two connection points and specifying exactly which of those connection points have the GPS coords tagged to them should make it a breeze to calculae. If you want to test my theory, send me the data and I'll get back to you. Unless I have done such a good job of explaining it that you can figure it out on your own. Let me know.

 

quick edits to better clarify one point and fix one typo. I hope it's good now.

 

You've pretty much got it. The OP listed a bearing, which would be accompanied by a distance. Bearings always reference true north, and are used as part of a parcels legal description. Not only does declination change from one location to the next, and not only does it change over the years, the rate at which it changes is changing, too.

 

Here in the US, the whole country is broken down into sections (which is one square mile, or 640 acres), then subsections within that section - 1/4 sections, 1/8 sections, and 1/16 sections. A parcel's legal description will say something like "Beginning at the northeast quarter of the southwest quarter of the southeast quarter of Section 41, Township XX, Range XX, and continuing thence N37° 52' 16"E 421.72 feet to an iron pipe marked..." you get the idea.

 

This description is formulated by a professional surveyor, who certifies that it is correct, and this becomes a legal document (similar to the map below):

 

 

To the OP: If you want to do some geocaching on your property, all you need to do is set out some caches, record the coords, then send your kids off to find them -- just like you would do for placing any cache (short of publishing on a caching website).

[+Don_J]

Interesting discussion. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that N87 is practically at the North Pole, not Ontario, CA.

[+Walts Hunting]

Interesting discussion. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that N87 is practically at the North Pole, not Ontario, CA.

 

Probably because the 87 is an azimuth not a latitude. It can exist anywhere.

[jasman444]

Interesting discussion. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that N87 is practically at the North Pole, not Ontario, CA.

 

Probably because the 87 is an azimuth not a latitude. It can exist anywhere.

The survey map covers N20 through too N87

Haliburton is also roughly mid point between the equator and the north pole according to their tourism office.

[+Cardinal Red]

The survey map covers N20 through too N87

 

I think it's possible you still have a MAGOR misunderstanding of what you are looking at. These are the angles of the property lines. By knowing the lengths of all the lines, along with their angle references, I could make a drawing of your property outline. But that property outline could exist anywhere in the world. Without supplying GPS reference coords of at least one property marker (I would prefer to have two) nobody can tell from those numbers where this property is located. And as I touched on previously this system consists four 90 degree quadrants. Thus all the Degree, Minute, Second data will be in the range of Zero to 90 Degrees. And again, that does NOT mean from Equator to Pole.

 

Your angle of N87degrees34'30"E line is 87.575 degrees clockwise of your North reference. This line runs very nearly East/West. If the numbers had been N87degrees34'30"W the line would be 87.575 degrees Counter Clockwise of your North reference. Your N20 something line is angled roughly 20 degrees off of true north. I don't know which quadrant it is in because you didn't include that.

 

A line such as S 35 Degrees E would be 35 degrees Counter Clockwise of a South reference and S 35 Degrees W would be 35 degrees Clockwise of a South reference. Is everybody clear now?

 

jasman:

How many property lines are there in this parcel? How many of the property markers can you locate and mark a GPS lat/long waypoint for? Do you want to be able to use your GPS to put you close (not exavtly on top of)to any property markers you have not found yet? If the answer is yes contact me with the survey info.

[+Walts Hunting]

Interesting discussion. I'm surprised that no one mentioned that N87 is practically at the North Pole, not Ontario, CA.

 

Probably because the 87 is an azimuth not a latitude. It can exist anywhere.

The survey map covers N20 through too N87

Haliburton is also roughly mid point between the equator and the north pole according to their tourism office.

 

You appear to be missing Cardinal Red's explanation. The numbers given are an azimuth, bearing, course or whatever else you want to call it. They are a direction. What is missing is the point of origin. They could be at any spot on the face of the planet. They ARE NOT part of a coordinate system.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Walts Hunting

[jasman444]

The survey map covers N20 through too N87

 

I think it's possible you still have a MAGOR misunderstanding of what you are looking at. These are the angles of the property lines. By knowing the lengths of all the lines, along with their angle references, I could make a drawing of your property outline. But that property outline could exist anywhere in the world. Without supplying GPS reference coords of at least one property marker (I would prefer to have two) nobody can tell from those numbers where this property is located. And as I touched on previously this system consists four 90 degree quadrants. Thus all the Degree, Minute, Second data will be in the range of Zero to 90 Degrees. And again, that does NOT mean from Equator to Pole.

 

Your angle of N87degrees34'30"E line is 87.575 degrees clockwise of your North reference. This line runs very nearly East/West. If the numbers had been N87degrees34'30"W the line would be 87.575 degrees Counter Clockwise of your North reference. Your N20 something line is angled roughly 20 degrees off of true north. I don't know which quadrant it is in because you didn't include that.

 

A line such as S 35 Degrees E would be 35 degrees Counter Clockwise of a South reference and S 35 Degrees W would be 35 degrees Clockwise of a South reference. Is everybody clear now?

 

jasman:

How many property lines are there in this parcel? How many of the property markers can you locate and mark a GPS lat/long waypoint for? Do you want to be able to use your GPS to put you close (not exavtly on top of)to any property markers you have not found yet? If the answer is yes contact me with the survey info.

I greatly appreciate your help.

We just got into geocaching last weekend so I need time to figure out everything being said.

I will get you some more infor.

thanks alot again.

john

[jasman444]

We have a Garmin VentureHC eTex gps.

We have some acreage (55)in Haliburton Ontario with a good survey map.

The gps seems to want two sets of compass info where the survey map only provides one.

The map indicates N87degrees34'30"E the gps wants two sets of coordinates.

We would love to be able to take the kids out to geocach our own property.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

john

Hi John

 

What you have posted here are NOT coordinates. You also have not supplied the complete information (there is a distance component missing such as 237.45' somewhere on that line). Well, here in the US it would be yards. Yours could very well be in Meters. The N87degrees34'30"E means that particular line on your property boundary is 87 Degrees 34' 30" clockwise of NORTH. If that last letter was a "W" it would have been CCW. Weather that reference is from TRUE North or MAGNETIC North is an interesting question. My limited experience (I am NOT a surveyor) has been from a MAGNETIC North reference. That really doesn't make sense because the magnetic declination changes over time. I would try a program which compares declination from say 50 years ago to today to make the necessary correction if needed. But I have gotten some feedback insisting it must be referenced to TRUE North even though that usually doesn't match what I find on the ground.

 

So the line you have asked about runs a certain distance which you have not provided in very nearly an EAST / WEST direction. except that possibly it needs to have Magnetic Declination correction taken into account. Does that make any sense so far?

 

Every line designation will start with an "N" or "S" and end with an "E" or "W". That determines which quadrant it is projecting into: "NE", "NW", "SE", or "SW".

 

In order for me to figure this out for you I would need every one of those Line Calls in Degrees, Minutes, and Seconds along with the associated Lengths. Then having known GPS coordinates (and Datum) for two connection points and specifying exactly which of those connection points have the GPS coords tagged to them should make it a breeze to calculae. If you want to test my theory, send me the data and I'll get back to you. Unless I have done such a good job of explaining it that you can figure it out on your own. Let me know.

 

quick edits to better clarify one point and fix one typo. I hope it's good now.

 

You've pretty much got it. The OP listed a bearing, which would be accompanied by a distance. Bearings always reference true north, and are used as part of a parcels legal description. Not only does declination change from one location to the next, and not only does it change over the years, the rate at which it changes is changing, too.

 

Here in the US, the whole country is broken down into sections (which is one square mile, or 640 acres), then subsections within that section - 1/4 sections, 1/8 sections, and 1/16 sections. A parcel's legal description will say something like "Beginning at the northeast quarter of the southwest quarter of the southeast quarter of Section 41, Township XX, Range XX, and continuing thence N37° 52' 16"E 421.72 feet to an iron pipe marked..." you get the idea.

 

This description is formulated by a professional surveyor, who certifies that it is correct, and this becomes a legal document (similar to the map below):

 

 

To the OP: If you want to do some geocaching on your property, all you need to do is set out some caches, record the coords, then send your kids off to find them -- just like you would do for placing any cache (short of publishing on a caching website).

I appreciate your help and will get more info to you.

We just started geocaching and are having a wonderful time.

It would be nice to be able to locate roughly where are property is.

I'll get the info to you shortly.

thanks

john

[+PFF]

Hi John,

 

I agree with the explanations given earlier. While the answer is not what you were hoping for (i.e., a set of coordinates), your GPS receiver still can be helpful in finding your property corners.

 

METHOD ONE: If you can find a known point (typically an iron pipe driven into the ground), you can create a waypoint. Then, you can travel outward, following the bearing on the map, until you get to the distance indicated on the line. Ideally, this would put you within 12 to 16 feet of the next boundary marker.

 

METHOD TWO: Find a known point and use the "Project a Waypoint" feature, if your GPS has it. Caution: This might require reading the instruction manual. As you know, that's not really a "guy" thing to do.

 

Run the line immediately after creating the waypoint, so that any error caused by satellite positions is consistent. (Don't create the waypoint on Tuesday and run the line on Wednesday.)

 

Converting surveyor terminology into bearings which can be used with your GPS:

 

The first compass indication is the starting point, and the ending indicator tells you which way to go around the dial. In your example, N 87 E does not take much thought. Start at North and go toward East for 87 degrees. Yes, the bearing actually IS 87 degrees.

 

If the first indication had been South and the second one East, you would start at South and move counter-clockwise toward east for 87 degrees. Since South is the 180 degree mark, subtract 87 from 180. The answer is 93 degrees. That's the bearing for the GPS. Technically, the answer is not that clean, since there are fractions of a degree. However, the accuracy of the GPS unit is not good enough to worry about it.

 

If the indication had been North 87 West, you would begin at North (360 degrees) and move toward West for 87 degrees, putting you at 273 degrees. You would expect such a line to be running almost exactly East-West. And for this next revelation, I hope you are sitting down! A line on a survey which is described as North 87 West could also be described as South 87 East. To visualize this, draw a circle and label the N, S, E, and W points.

 

The only downside to these methods comes when the line segment is longer than 520 feet. That's where your GPS will switch from "feet" to "decimal miles". The good news is that you can convert something like 725 feet into decimal miles with a calculator. The bad news is that the GPS will get you close, but then (as with a geocache), you have to use your eyes--and sometimes a metal detector--to find the iron pipe.

 

Are there ever "real" latitude/longitude coordinates on a surveyor's plat?

 

Not in the format you are expecting. However, you sometimes will see a reference point which contains a number named "northing" and another named "easting". (Or, the surveyor may have used "X" and "Y", which is the same thing). These are SPC, or State Plane Coordinates.

 

There is an on-line computer program which can convert these coordinates into latitude and longitude, but it's pretty complex. If you encounter SPC, hop over to the benchmarking forum (www.geocaching.com/mark) and open a thread asking for help. The Forums are monitored by some professional surveyors, as well as representatives from the National Geodetic Survey--including the fellow who wrote this article. (Yes, this is the same Dave Doyle who is interviewed in the History Channel's program, "How the States Got Their Shapes". ) Meanwhile, if the referenced object is a benchmark, someone in that forum probably can come up with the latitude and longitude simply by consulting one of several data banks.

 

I hope this is helpful. If you practice the art of projecting waypoints, and you'll grasp it pretty quickly--despite the "quirky" terminology used by surveyors. .

 

-Paul-

[jasman444]

Hi John,

 

I agree with the explanations given earlier. While the answer is not what you were hoping for (i.e., a set of coordinates), your GPS receiver still can be helpful in finding your property corners.

 

METHOD ONE: If you can find a known point (typically an iron pipe driven into the ground), you can create a waypoint. Then, you can travel outward, following the bearing on the map, until you get to the distance indicated on the line. Ideally, this would put you within 12 to 16 feet of the next boundary marker.

 

METHOD TWO: Find a known point and use the "Project a Waypoint" feature, if your GPS has it. Caution: This might require reading the instruction manual. As you know, that's not really a "guy" thing to do.

 

Run the line immediately after creating the waypoint, so that any error caused by satellite positions is consistent. (Don't create the waypoint on Tuesday and run the line on Wednesday.)

 

Converting surveyor terminology into bearings which can be used with your GPS:

 

The first compass indication is the starting point, and the ending indicator tells you which way to go around the dial. In your example, N 87 E does not take much thought. Start at North and go toward East for 87 degrees. Yes, the bearing actually IS 87 degrees.

 

If the first indication had been South and the second one East, you would start at South and move counter-clockwise toward east for 87 degrees. Since South is the 180 degree mark, subtract 87 from 180. The answer is 93 degrees. That's the bearing for the GPS. Technically, the answer is not that clean, since there are fractions of a degree. However, the accuracy of the GPS unit is not good enough to worry about it.

 

If the indication had been North 87 West, you would begin at North (360 degrees) and move toward West for 87 degrees, putting you at 273 degrees. You would expect such a line to be running almost exactly East-West. And for this next revelation, I hope you are sitting down! A line on a survey which is described as North 87 West could also be described as South 87 East. To visualize this, draw a circle and label the N, S, E, and W points.

 

The only downside to these methods comes when the line segment is longer than 520 feet. That's where your GPS will switch from "feet" to "decimal miles". The good news is that you can convert something like 725 feet into decimal miles with a calculator. The bad news is that the GPS will get you close, but then (as with a geocache), you have to use your eyes--and sometimes a metal detector--to find the iron pipe.

 

Are there ever "real" latitude/longitude coordinates on a surveyor's plat?

 

Not in the format you are expecting. However, you sometimes will see a reference point which contains a number named "northing" and another named "easting". (Or, the surveyor may have used "X" and "Y", which is the same thing). These are SPC, or State Plane Coordinates.

 

There is an on-line computer program which can convert these coordinates into latitude and longitude, but it's pretty complex. If you encounter SPC, hop over to the benchmarking forum (www.geocaching.com/mark) and open a thread asking for help. The Forums are monitored by some professional surveyors, as well as representatives from the National Geodetic Survey--including the fellow who wrote this article. (Yes, this is the same Dave Doyle who is interviewed in the History Channel's program, "How the States Got Their Shapes". ) Meanwhile, if the referenced object is a benchmark, someone in that forum probably can come up with the latitude and longitude simply by consulting one of several data banks.

 

I hope this is helpful. If you practice the art of projecting waypoints, and you'll grasp it pretty quickly--despite the "quirky" terminology used by surveyors. .

 

-Paul-

thanks Paul

I'll give it a try.

The help on this site has been great.

I hope I can put it into practice.

john

[+Cardinal Red]

... The only downside to these methods comes when the line segment is longer than 520 feet. That's where your GPS will switch from "feet" to "decimal miles"...-Paul-

Hi Paul

 

I have a question, an observation, and a tip for you if you are a Garmin user.

 

First the tip. I have always hated the Garmin "STATUTE" distance units setting. Why should we have to put up with the .01 miles display limitation outside a distance of 528 feet? So I looked at the other options and for years now I have been using the "YARDS" setting. Outside of 1000 yards it works just like the "STATUTE" setting (an update every .01 miles). Inside 1000 yards it gives an update every 3 feet and inside 100 feet automatically switches to giving an update every foot. I'll never go back to "STATUTE".

 

Just an observation. Mountainman38 also seems to have a pretty good grasp of this type of information. He seems sure the reference will always be TRUE NORTH. I completely understand why that makes perfect sense but I doesn't match what I find on the ground when I look for property markers. I have typically found 5 to 10 degree deviation from TRUE NORTH. 10 Degrees seems to match the Magnetic Deviation of the area 50 years ago when many of the documents I have used were created. 5 degrees just splits the difference and provides no definitive answer. With two known points I can work up a fairly accurate outline and quite often find the remaining property markers with a little bit of searching (often with a metal detector). Some of my brothers pins were 3 inches down after only 20 years. Would not have found them without the Metal Detector. And the professional surveyor made a 10 degree error in recording one of the lines on my brothers property. My brother of course just shrugged it off and doesn't worry about it. So, I have heard several times the reference is TRUE NORTH but I have never found a real world example that definitively follows that. I have to remain open minded, but continue to be skeptical that every surveyor used True North every time.

 

Now for the question. This thread concerns a property in Canada. I have to believe that Canadian property would be documented in Meters (Metres?). No? You discussed Statute concerns in feet. Mountainman38 gave an example in two decimal feet. My first exposure to a 50 or 60 acre property had it documented in two decimal yards. What determines when the Surveyor uses Yards or Feet?

[+PFF]

Hi Cardinal Red,

 

That's a great tip about switching to YARDS. Thanks! I walk a lot of property lines, and this will be very valuable. I'm eager to give it a try.

 

You brought up a good point about whether this Canadian parcel is expressed in Yards, rather than Feet. I enlarged the diagram and the mark after the distance appeared to be a single apostrophe, which I took to mean "feet". Also, the map scale appears to be "one inch equals 400 feet". I relied upon the relative size of Parcel #17, as well as the width of the Interstate Highway, both of which seem consistent with "feet'. However, I could be wrong. I do not have experience with plat maps from Canada, so the the concept of the map being in "yards" did not occur to me.

 

I'm glad you mentioned it so I can be more alert to this possibility. In the U.S., I would expect to find feet, most of the time--although the common unit of measure in NGS data sheets (such as describing benchmarks) is Meters. Oddly, there is only one value for the Meter, but there are two kinds of Feet--a linear foot, and a survey foot. Fortunately, there isn't enough difference to loose sleep over. [Grin.] For a full discussion, visit this FAQ and scroll down to a long section where the font looks like it was written on a typewriter.

 

Thanks for your interesting comments about True North. Since Magnetic North moves, it would seem logical to convert to True North for consistency over long periods of time. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, the US Government established "meridian" stones in centralized places. A Meridian Station consisted of two granite blocks (each weighing about 600 pounds), placed approximately 100 feet apart in a True north-south line. A surveyor was required to visit his county's meridian once per year to calibrate his compass. The surveyor then recorded the correction in a special book in the office of the Register of Deeds, and paid a fee of $5.00--which was a significant business expense in 1900!

 

A logical assumption would be that if a survey were based upon magnetic north, a notation would be made giving the declination for the year in which the survey was done. I hang out with some professional surveyors, and I intend to ask about these topics. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

Best regards,

-Paul-

[+Cardinal Red]

You brought up a good point about whether this Canadian parcel is expressed in Yards, rather than Feet. I enlarged the diagram and the mark after the distance appeared to be a single apostrophe, which I took to mean "feet".

I just want to point out that the diagram was NOT provided by the OP. It was posed instead by Mountainman38 as a visual example only, and seems to say: County of Nevada, California. Certainly not an example of Canadian surveying.

 

And thanks for your response so far. Looking forward to hearing more details later.

[7rxc]

You brought up a good point about whether this Canadian parcel is expressed in Yards, rather than Feet. I enlarged the diagram and the mark after the distance appeared to be a single apostrophe, which I took to mean "feet".

I just want to point out that the diagram was NOT provided by the OP. It was posed instead by Mountainman38 as a visual example only, and seems to say: County of Nevada, California. Certainly not an example of Canadian surveying.

 

And thanks for your response so far. Looking forward to hearing more details later.

The OP could also mention the date of the survey... that would shed light on the measurement system... but since it uses fairly modern format (not the older along this to there thence to somewhere else descriptors) it should be a known standard. Haliburton was probably mainly English or Canadian surveyors. So the date will help a lot. It might be quite modern, given development there, or it could be older. Perhaps the OP could scan the survey like the California example. Just a different CA.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+LightHouseSeekers]

Another point to consider on the measurements.

How long has CA been metric? Could that survey be ft/yds/in ?

 

Just saying cause I believe the Canadian railroad system is still

marked in miles even though roads are now marked with kilometers.

[+mountainman38]

...Just an observation. Mountainman38 also seems to have a pretty good grasp of this type of information. He seems sure the reference will always be TRUE NORTH. I completely understand why that makes perfect sense but I doesn't match what I find on the ground when I look for property markers. I have typically found 5 to 10 degree deviation from TRUE NORTH. 10 Degrees seems to match the Magnetic Deviation of the area 50 years ago when many of the documents I have used were created. 5 degrees just splits the difference and provides no definitive answer. With two known points I can work up a fairly accurate outline and quite often find the remaining property markers with a little bit of searching (often with a metal detector). Some of my brothers pins were 3 inches down after only 20 years. Would not have found them without the Metal Detector. And the professional surveyor made a 10 degree error in recording one of the lines on my brothers property. My brother of course just shrugged it off and doesn't worry about it. So, I have heard several times the reference is TRUE NORTH but I have never found a real world example that definitively follows that. I have to remain open minded, but continue to be skeptical that every surveyor used True North every time...

 

Cardinal,

 

You bring up an interesting point. My surveying experience started out at about the age of 12, working with my Dad doing property surveys. He has a land surveyors license, so most of what I know I've gotten from him and feel confident in. I've also worked for other surveying companies, and the north we used was always true north. As I mentioned earlier, if you tried to use magnetic north, you'd have to revise your map pretty frequently.

 

I think where the error comes from is when a surveyor uses monuments for a basis of bearing (his reference line when he starts a survey) that aren't what he thinks they are. Sections are theoretically laid out in a north-south fashion, so the lines between the corners should run either true north-south or true east-west. The problem comes from how the sections were laid out, sometimes well over a hundred years ago. Surveyors were pretty good at what they did, even with the rather crude instruments they had (compared to todays technology), but they made mistakes (just like they do now!).

 

If a surveyor uses a slightly skewed line as his basis of bearing, and then references everything off of that, the lines won't actually be referenced to true north. This improper start to a survey could lead to the varying errors you've seen. (I came across this explanation on a real estate website, while looking for a reference on surveying techniques.)

[+mountainman38]

You brought up a good point about whether this Canadian parcel is expressed in Yards, rather than Feet. I enlarged the diagram and the mark after the distance appeared to be a single apostrophe, which I took to mean "feet".

I just want to point out that the diagram was NOT provided by the OP. It was posed instead by Mountainman38 as a visual example only, and seems to say: County of Nevada, California. Certainly not an example of Canadian surveying.

 

And thanks for your response so far. Looking forward to hearing more details later.

The OP could also mention the date of the survey... that would shed light on the measurement system... but since it uses fairly modern format (not the older along this to there thence to somewhere else descriptors) it should be a known standard. Haliburton was probably mainly English or Canadian surveyors. So the date will help a lot. It might be quite modern, given development there, or it could be older. Perhaps the OP could scan the survey like the California example. Just a different CA.

 

Doug 7rxc

 

This would actually be kind of fun. For those of us who geek out on this kind of thing, if the OP were to post a good quality scan (so it could be enlarged) of his parcel map (or plat), he might just get a bit of free work done. There are free COGO programs available that will lay the parcel out quite quickly, and if there is a known Northing/Easting the corner coordinates could then be determined.

 

OP: all you gotta do is say "Well, it's probably too difficult of a project. Thanks anyway, guys!"

 

Never underestimate the power of a challenge to the technically addicted...

[7rxc]

Was doing some more looking around... I am no longer from Ontario where I lived until '95. However, I came up with the website for the provincial land surveyors association... and then went to their page about what they provide for lot surveys... you can get to the Home page from there.

 

AOLS Link here - SRPR page

 

I also saw elsewhere that the standard orientation was Astronomical North which is essentially True North from what I see... I've used that as a quick way to set my compass declination... at night find the Pole Star, then adjust the declination until the Mag arrow allows North and the PS to line up... done.

 

As for metrication... I thought it was in the late 60's, but apparently it was early to mid 70's, and much was set back later on... like the States... more survived here, but is progressing on it's own. However the only requirement for surveys seems to be that it is properly recorded in the legend as to what it is. I think that would be because there have been many systems in use over the last several hundred years and some still exist.

 

Was interested to see that the US authorized legal use of metric in 1866... but it seems that even though metrication was started in the 70's it has been left to it's own progress due to budget cuts... but it will come as generations change. Much of industry and science has already shifted over with the state of International Trade.

 

Doug 7rxc

[jasman444]

Was doing some more looking around... I am no longer from Ontario where I lived until '95. However, I came up with the website for the provincial land surveyors association... and then went to their page about what they provide for lot surveys... you can get to the Home page from there.

 

AOLS Link here - SRPR page

 

I also saw elsewhere that the standard orientation was Astronomical North which is essentially True North from what I see... I've used that as a quick way to set my compass declination... at night find the Pole Star, then adjust the declination until the Mag arrow allows North and the PS to line up... done.

 

As for metrication... I thought it was in the late 60's, but apparently it was early to mid 70's, and much was set back later on... like the States... more survived here, but is progressing on it's own. However the only requirement for surveys seems to be that it is properly recorded in the legend as to what it is. I think that would be because there have been many systems in use over the last several hundred years and some still exist.

 

Was interested to see that the US authorized legal use of metric in 1866... but it seems that even though metrication was started in the 70's it has been left to it's own progress due to budget cuts... but it will come as generations change. Much of industry and science has already shifted over with the state of International Trade.

 

Doug 7rxc

thankyou Doug

I will go on the site and look

john

[ottodawg]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is interesting stuff. I'm currently trying to mark a driveway from a 1989 survey for the USFS. I get the NE type bearing and the distance, but not sure how I would do the radius of the curves (software wise).

 

My ultimate goal is to create a gps track, or at least waypoints, from the survey. I was trying to do it in Delorme Topo NA, but it seems you can't draw circles to make the curves.

 

If anyone is looking for a challenge let me know and I'll scan in the survey.

 

Guess I could hire a surveyor, but hey what fun would that be..

[+Cardinal Red]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is interesting stuff. I'm currently trying to mark a driveway from a 1989 survey for the USFS. I get the NE type bearing and the distance, but not sure how I would do the radius of the curves (software wise).

 

My ultimate goal is to create a gps track, or at least waypoints, from the survey. I was trying to do it in Delorme Topo NA, but it seems you can't draw circles to make the curves.

 

If anyone is looking for a challenge let me know and I'll scan in the survey.

 

Guess I could hire a surveyor, but hey what fun would that be..

I don't completely understand what you are trying to accomplish. I would be interested to hear more and see a copy of your survey.

[ottodawg]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is interesting stuff. I'm currently trying to mark a driveway from a 1989 survey for the USFS. I get the NE type bearing and the distance, but not sure how I would do the radius of the curves (software wise).

 

My ultimate goal is to create a gps track, or at least waypoints, from the survey. I was trying to do it in Delorme Topo NA, but it seems you can't draw circles to make the curves.

 

If anyone is looking for a challenge let me know and I'll scan in the survey.

 

Guess I could hire a surveyor, but hey what fun would that be..

I don't completely understand what you are trying to accomplish. I would be interested to hear more and see a copy of your survey.

 

Previous owner of the land we purchased had a survey for a driveway done in 1989. The drive wasn't completed. I'm trying to use the old survey to get an access permit with the USFS for a new driveway. Problem is they want me to mark it and I'm not sure how to convert it to GPS co-ordinates to mark it.

 

I have gps co-ordinates for the 2 points the survey references as starting points, just not sure how to continue past that.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Edited June 15, 2012 by ottodawg

[+Cardinal Red]

Previous owner of the land we purchased had a survey for a driveway done in 1989. The drive wasn't completed. I'm trying to use the old survey to get an access permit with the USFS for a new driveway. Problem is they want me to mark it and I'm not sure how to convert it to GPS co-ordinates to mark it.

 

I have gps co-ordinates for the 2 points the survey references as starting points, just not sure how to continue past that.

 

Hope that makes sense.

I would like to take a shot at this. email sent

[ottodawg]

Previous owner of the land we purchased had a survey for a driveway done in 1989. The drive wasn't completed. I'm trying to use the old survey to get an access permit with the USFS for a new driveway. Problem is they want me to mark it and I'm not sure how to convert it to GPS co-ordinates to mark it.

 

I have gps co-ordinates for the 2 points the survey references as starting points, just not sure how to continue past that.

 

Hope that makes sense.

I would like to take a shot at this. email sent

 

Info sent. Thanks!