+Spraginator Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 With the new beta maps, you can zoom out and see the whole U.S. at one time. I noticed that one of the biggest holes is in N.E. Arizona. Does anyone know why this is? Is there a military testing base there or something like that? Quote
+StarBrand Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 With the new beta maps, you can zoom out and see the whole U.S. at one time. I noticed that one of the biggest holes is in N.E. Arizona. Does anyone know why this is? Is there a military testing base there or something like that? I could tell you but then i'd have to kill you...... (no idea at all really) Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 The Navajo Nation takes up a large chunk of the Four Corners. As of right now there are no caches allowed. Quote
AZcachemeister Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 The Navajo Nation takes up a large chunk of the Four Corners. As of right now there are no caches allowed. What he said...take a look at the map grasshopper. Quote
+sword fern Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 The Navajo Nation takes up a large chunk of the Four Corners. As of right now there are no caches allowed. No wonder the four corners monument virtual cache got archived recently... Quote
+Andromeda321 Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Never heard of this before because I've never lived near one, but are caches not allowed on American Indian reservations in general or just the Navajo Nation? And if so why? Quote
+NYPaddleCacher Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Never heard of this before because I've never lived near one, but are caches not allowed on American Indian reservations in general or just the Navajo Nation? And if so why? I live somewhat close to some Onondaga Indian Nation land so I took a look at the map. It's not quite clear where the property boundry lies but it looks like there might be one cache on their property (placed about a week ago) and another that's along the interstate that runs through the property. Other than that cache, there are no others on the Onondaga Nation land. I suspect though that each nation has their own policy. Quote
+Chokecherry Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Never heard of this before because I've never lived near one, but are caches not allowed on American Indian reservations in general or just the Navajo Nation? And if so why? There aren't any on the one nearest to me. Placement of caches would depend on the tribal agencies granting permission for it to occur just like anywhere else. They are a sovereign nation and that land is theirs so one can't assume that it's just public land free for everyone to use. Quote
+geodarts Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Earlier this year there was a discussion in the earthcache forums about placing an earthcache on Tribal Land - specifically Navajo land. One cache was disabled so that permission issues could be clarified, although there is another earthcache on Navajo land that remains active. Quote
Mr.Yuck Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Never heard of this before because I've never lived near one, but are caches not allowed on American Indian reservations in general or just the Navajo Nation? And if so why? I live somewhat close to some Onondaga Indian Nation land so I took a look at the map. It's not quite clear where the property boundry lies but it looks like there might be one cache on their property (placed about a week ago) and another that's along the interstate that runs through the property. Other than that cache, there are no others on the Onondaga Nation land. I suspect though that each nation has their own policy. I'm in NY too, and I am going to say only with tribal permission. There are certainly no caches on the Reservation I live about 20 miles from, although this is a teeny speck of land compared to the Navajo nation. And I do buy quality non-ethanol tainted gasoline there, and have noticed some interesting spots, and thought about it. Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Earlier this year there was a discussion in the earthcache forums about placing an earthcache on Tribal Land - specifically Navajo land. One cache was disabled so that permission issues could be clarified, although there is another earthcache on Navajo land that remains active. That particular cache had a note posted by the owner to go ahead and log it even though the permission issue has not been settled and it is still disabled. Perhaps the active one should be disabled also, since caches are not allowed on the Navajo Nation? Maybe earthcaches don't need to follow the rules, since they are approved by someone other than Groundspeak? John Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 After asking my co-oworkers they said that any place you can stop along the main/real road would be fine for an Earthcache or a virtual. Taking things would be a big no. There are a few Earthcachers around, two mulit's that I know of (that end at the Vistors Center for Four Corners) but other then that... Getting permission would be a hassle, you'd need permission from the Nation, the holder of the Homesite Lease and who ever lived there. Quote
+briansnat Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Maybe earthcaches don't need to follow the rules, since they are approved by someone other than Groundspeak? The rules for Earthcaches are actually more stringent as express permission of the land owner/manager is required. Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Maybe earthcaches don't need to follow the rules, since they are approved by someone other than Groundspeak? The rules for Earthcaches are actually more stringent as express permission of the land owner/manager is required. The cache in question was Disabled due to permission issues. The owner then posts a note to the cache page to go ahead and log it even though the problem has not been resolved. Allowing it to be logged at this point means there is no need for the CO to get permission and re-enable the cache. The permission issue has just been swept under the rug and the cache is "available" for those that choose to log it. Who has the last say on approval, Groundspeak or Earthcaching Org? John Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 The Navajo Nation takes up a large chunk of the Four Corners. As of right now there are no caches allowed. No wonder the four corners monument virtual cache got archived recently... Well, crud. Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Maybe earthcaches don't need to follow the rules, since they are approved by someone other than Groundspeak? The rules for Earthcaches are actually more stringent as express permission of the land owner/manager is required. The cache in question was Disabled due to permission issues. The owner then posts a note to the cache page to go ahead and log it even though the problem has not been resolved. Allowing it to be logged at this point means there is no need for the CO to get permission and re-enable the cache. The permission issue has just been swept under the rug and the cache is "available" for those that choose to log it. Who has the last say on approval, Groundspeak or Earthcaching Org? John Which one is disabled? The three I see don't seem to be a problem, two aren't on the Nation and the third one doesn't require leaving the road. Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Maybe earthcaches don't need to follow the rules, since they are approved by someone other than Groundspeak? The rules for Earthcaches are actually more stringent as express permission of the land owner/manager is required. The cache in question was Disabled due to permission issues. The owner then posts a note to the cache page to go ahead and log it even though the problem has not been resolved. Allowing it to be logged at this point means there is no need for the CO to get permission and re-enable the cache. The permission issue has just been swept under the rug and the cache is "available" for those that choose to log it. Who has the last say on approval, Groundspeak or Earthcaching Org? John Which one is disabled? The three I see don't seem to be a problem, two aren't on the Nation and the third one doesn't require leaving the road. This one is disabled. Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 This one is disabled. Humm, I'd assume they need permission from the parking lot owner, not the Navajo Nation. Although that might be one and the same in this case. Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 This one is disabled. Humm, I'd assume they need permission from the parking lot owner, not the Navajo Nation. Although that might be one and the same in this case. The Navajo Nation owns ALL the land on the Reservation. Their approval would therefore be required for a cache placed Anywhere on their lands. Those who have leases would Also need to give their permission for a cache to be placed. John Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 This one is disabled. Humm, I'd assume they need permission from the parking lot owner, not the Navajo Nation. Although that might be one and the same in this case. The Navajo Nation owns ALL the land on the Reservation. Their approval would therefore be required for a cache placed Anywhere on their lands. Those who have leases would Also need to give their permission for a cache to be placed. John I think we are in agreement. I'm just thinking that it would make most sense to talk with the manager of the parking lot first to find out who to talk with next. Quote
jholly Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Never heard of this before because I've never lived near one, but are caches not allowed on American Indian reservations in general or just the Navajo Nation? And if so why? To answer your question, Tribal land is sovereign territory and for the purposes of geocaching must be considered private property and must have explicit permission. This does apply to all reservations. Some tribes are more lenient and accepting of the game, others are far more restrictive. If there are pockets of county, state or national parks in the reservations then these areas do fall under the jurisdiction of the respective parks and those rules apply. I think the only parks in the Navajo Nation are NPS parks, hence no caches. Quote
+geodarts Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Which one is disabled? The three I see don't seem to be a problem, two aren't on the Nation and the third one doesn't require leaving the road. This one remains active. The Navajo actually have a fairly open policy regarding photography and other activities on their land. There are certain areas where photography or public access is not permitted, but they welcome visitors. You could not climb Shiprock (the subject of the Tsé Bit' A'í earthcache), but as I understand it none of the logging requirements would post a problem. Still, the tribe could want to be informed about the earthcache, in the same way that the NPS does, but I have no reason to assume that the earthcache permission guidelines were not followed for this one. Since each tribe is sovereign, the policies can vary greatly. In the Southwest, the Acoma or the Hopi almost certainly would have different concerns. No wonder the four corners monument virtual cache got archived recently... I was sorry to learn that. The virtual appears to have been archived for the usual reasons - the owner was not maintaining the cache and people were logging it improperly. In fact, people continue to log it. It did offer a fairly concise statement of the rules at play: Navajo Reservation. Their stance on Geocaching is basically our lands are sovereign and if you put a cache on them we will confiscate your GPS, Car, and charge you with trespassing. They made it pretty clear that they do not and will not allow cache placements on their lands!!! The reservation is a sovereign nation AND private property. Permits are required to enter the reservation. Remenber that the land around this Monument is reservation. Which is, presumably, why there is such a large gap in the maps. Edited May 11, 2011 by mulvaney Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Which one is disabled? The three I see don't seem to be a problem, two aren't on the Nation and the third one doesn't require leaving the road. This one remains active. The Navajo actually have a fairly open policy regarding photography and other activities on their land. There are certain areas where photography or public access is not permitted, but outside of that they welcome visitors. You could not climb Shiprock (the subject of the Tsé Bit' A'í earthcache), but as I understand it none of the logging requirements would post a problem. Still, the tribe could want to be informed about the earthcache, in the same way that the NPS does, but I have no reason to assume that the earthcache permission guidelines were not followed for this one. snip.... Navajo Reservation. Their stance on Geocaching is basically our lands are sovereign and if you put a cache on them we will confiscate your GPS, Car, and charge you with trespassing. They made it pretty clear that they do not and will not allow cache placements on their lands!!! The reservation is a sovereign nation AND private property. Permits are required to enter the reservation. Remenber that the land around this Monument is reservation. Which is, presumably, why there is such a large gap in the maps. Here in the forums we tell people to be honest when confronted by Law Enforcement Officers. So if someone is questioned by an Officer and they being honest, say that they are doing an earthcache, they stand a fair chance of having personal property confiscated and charged with trespassing. The Tribe doesn't make a distinction on what type of cache it is, they just enforce their laws. This is the reason for having explicit permission for a cache on private property. Without this explicit permission the cache should be archived (and locked to prevent it still being found and logged). John Quote
+CanadianRockies Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 We had a great time visiting the Navajo Nation last Christmas. We picked up a couple virtual caches on U.S. National Park lands and one traditional in the town of Ganado. We also found some NGS benchmarks. While doing so, we were approached by a security officer. We explained what we were doing, and, although I'm sure the explanation sounded rather odd, he readily accepted it and pleasantly wished us a nice day. I don't believe any permits are required to drive through Navajo country as long as you stay on the main roads. Photography is allowed, but you should ask permission before you take an individual's picture (and tipping them probably would be appreciated). Quote
+Chokecherry Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 We had a great time visiting the Navajo Nation last Christmas. We picked up a couple virtual caches on U.S. National Park lands and one traditional in the town of Ganado. We also found some NGS benchmarks. While doing so, we were approached by a security officer. We explained what we were doing, and, although I'm sure the explanation sounded rather odd, he readily accepted it and pleasantly wished us a nice day. I don't believe any permits are required to drive through Navajo country as long as you stay on the main roads. Photography is allowed, but you should ask permission before you take an individual's picture (and tipping them probably would be appreciated). If someone drove through my neighborhood and stopped to take a picture of me and expected me to be ok with it because of a tip... oh my goodness the words I would say. I don't care if I look different or exotic or whatever. I am not a sideshow. Nor are the people on the reservations. That being said. Some reservations depending on the laws governing them etc. are more restrictive about access through them. Some are less restrictive. Even if there's a casino, store or whatever on the land that land is still the property of the reservation. Around here it's actually somewhat rare that a business on the reservation is owned by a private party. Most all businesses here are actually owned by the tribe themselves. To say the store owner could just give permission and that's good enough (up thread) is not an appropriate assessment of the situation. One would still have to go to the tribe even if it's one of those rare private owner ship things. Realistically most all the land on a reservation is owned directly by the tribe. The businesses and homes and what not are simply leasing that land for their purposes. It all gets complicated fast. So here's the easy answer. If you are soooo driven to put a cache on tribal lands talk to the tribe and don't be taking short cuts. Quote
+StarBrand Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Tribes possess limited tribal sovereignty, laws on tribe lands vary from the surrounding state. The tribal councils, not local or federal government entities, generally has jurisdiction over reservation lands and residents. Each reservation has different systems of government, which may or may not replicate the forms of government found outside the reservation. Most Indian reservations were established by the federal government during the statehood process. Kind of like a limited country within a country within a state. Quote
+CanadianRockies Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Photography is allowed, but you should ask permission before you take an individual's picture (and tipping them probably would be appreciated). If someone drove through my neighborhood and stopped to take a picture of me and expected me to be ok with it because of a tip... oh my goodness the words I would say. I don't care if I look different or exotic or whatever. I am not a sideshow. Nor are the people on the reservations. I don't think it's the tip that makes it okay; I think it's the asking permission. That said, different cultures have different mores, and I accept that. Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Which one is disabled? The three I see don't seem to be a problem, two aren't on the Nation and the third one doesn't require leaving the road. This one remains active. The Navajo actually have a fairly open policy regarding photography and other activities on their land. There are certain areas where photography or public access is not permitted, but outside of that they welcome visitors. You could not climb Shiprock (the subject of the Tsé Bit' A'í earthcache), but as I understand it none of the logging requirements would post a problem. Still, the tribe could want to be informed about the earthcache, in the same way that the NPS does, but I have no reason to assume that the earthcache permission guidelines were not followed for this one. snip.... Navajo Reservation. Their stance on Geocaching is basically our lands are sovereign and if you put a cache on them we will confiscate your GPS, Car, and charge you with trespassing. They made it pretty clear that they do not and will not allow cache placements on their lands!!! The reservation is a sovereign nation AND private property. Permits are required to enter the reservation. Remenber that the land around this Monument is reservation. Which is, presumably, why there is such a large gap in the maps. Here in the forums we tell people to be honest when confronted by Law Enforcement Officers. So if someone is questioned by an Officer and they being honest, say that they are doing an earthcache, they stand a fair chance of having personal property confiscated and charged with trespassing. The Tribe doesn't make a distinction on what type of cache it is, they just enforce their laws. This is the reason for having explicit permission for a cache on private property. Without this explicit permission the cache should be archived (and locked to prevent it still being found and logged). John I have to wonder if there are any Foursquare venues on the Reservation... Or Waymarks for that matter. Quote
+WeeWillie Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 The Navajo and other Indian Nations have restrictions regarding access to their land that encompass more than Geocaching. Hunting, fishing, camping and hiking are examples. Some of the reasons are religious. Relegion plays a far more signifciant role in their daily lives than many others in our society. Their religion extends deeply into Mother Nature / Earth and a bunch a non-believers are an intrusion. Some is environmental; leaving a cache creates a presence and the desert is fragile. There are cultural reasons also. Plundering historic, religious and cultural sites is a major problem. I live and AZ and can attest to the problem with sites being ruined by indivuduals destroying sites (including non-Indian) for artifacts to sell on the black market. There are also commercial reasons. Guiding is an source of income for any. Guides know and avoid religious historic and cultural sites. Navajo (and Hopi) restrict picture taking too. Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) I understand and respect the needs of The People to control access and why they would not want a physical cache... but an Earthcache or a Virtual? There's nothing there that wasn't there before. Unless it's an area that is completely off limits there should be no reason to limit non-physical caches in these areas. That Virtual and Earthcache icon only lives as 1s and 0s on Groundspeak's servers. It sounds like there were other issues with the 4-Corners Virtual and that permission wasn't the problem- nor should it be. People visit that site for non-caching reasons all the time. Edited May 13, 2011 by Castle Mischief Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I understand and respect the needs of The People to control access and why they would not want a physical cache... but an Earthcache or a Virtual? There's nothing there that wasn't there before. Unless it's an area that is completely off limits there should be no reason to limit non-physical caches in these areas. That Virtual and Earthcache icon only lives as 1s and 0s on Groundspeak's servers. It sounds like there were other issues with the 4-Corners Virtual and that permission wasn't the problem- nor should it be. People visit that site for non-caching reasons all the time. What is the problem with the owners of the land saying "No Caching". The Tribe has said they do not allow caching, therefore as owners of the land, they have the last say, regardless of their reasoning. John Quote
+Panther&Pine Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) What is the problem with the owners of the land saying "No Caching". The Tribe has said they do not allow caching, therefore as owners of the land, they have the last say, regardless of their reasoning. John +1 It is a case of the Land Mangager not wanting caches on their property. They just happen to have a huge amount of land. Edited May 13, 2011 by MooseJawSpruce Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 What is the problem with the owners of the land saying "No Caching". The Tribe has said they do not allow caching, therefore as owners of the land, they have the last say, regardless of their reasoning. John +1 It is a case of the Land Mangager not wanting caches on their property. They just happen to have a huge amount of land. Yes, but these two things, "no caches on their property" and "no caching" in the cases of Virtuals and Earthcaches aren't really the same thing. As long as picture taking and tourism is okay with the Nation at a particular site, how could they possibly stop people from visiting a non-physical cache? That would be like trying to enforce the color of the shaded area on Google maps or telling a visitor that they couldn't waypoint a location in their Garmin. Virtuals and Earthcaches technically DON'T EXIST in the real world. It's a concept more than a physical object. Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Holy cow. "Navajo Reservations" is its very own Waymarking category. Now how is that possibly different than a Virtual? In name only? Quote
+WeeWillie Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 The Navajo are not singling out Geocachers. Hikers, campers, fishers, and hunters are not allowed to wander on Navajo land. Hopi and Apache also restrict non-Indian access to their reservations. The amount of land isn't the issue, property rights are the issue. Geocaching.com has specific rules regarding property rights. Cachers leave footprints and over time footprints become paths. Quote
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Holy cow. "Navajo Reservations" is its very own Waymarking category. Now how is that possibly different than a Virtual? In name only? Perhaps Groundspeak should disable and lock any cache/waymark that is on the Reservation until such time as the permission issue is resolved! The tribe does have the right to confiscate your property if you have a run-in with an officer who is having a bad day and there would be nothing that you could do about it except to go to Tribal Court and plead your case. John Quote
+Castle Mischief Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 The Navajo are not singling out Geocachers. Hikers, campers, fishers, and hunters are not allowed to wander on Navajo land. Hopi and Apache also restrict non-Indian access to their reservations. The amount of land isn't the issue, property rights are the issue. Geocaching.com has specific rules regarding property rights. Cachers leave footprints and over time footprints become paths. I'm not talking about sites that are otherwise restricted, I'm talking about sites that do allow some sort of access, IE Four Corners: As long as picture taking and tourism is okay with the Nation at a particular site, how could they possibly stop people from visiting a non-physical cache? Quote
jholly Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 The Navajo are not singling out Geocachers. Hikers, campers, fishers, and hunters are not allowed to wander on Navajo land. Hopi and Apache also restrict non-Indian access to their reservations. The amount of land isn't the issue, property rights are the issue. Geocaching.com has specific rules regarding property rights. Cachers leave footprints and over time footprints become paths. I'm not talking about sites that are otherwise restricted, I'm talking about sites that do allow some sort of access, IE Four Corners: As long as picture taking and tourism is okay with the Nation at a particular site, how could they possibly stop people from visiting a non-physical cache? It is kind of like the zero tolerance rules in schools. Kids get tossed out because some teacher found an aspirin in the bottom of a kids backpack. But wasn't the four corners virtual shutdown on a maintenance issue? Quote
sabrefan7 Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 The Navajo are not singling out Geocachers. Hikers, campers, fishers, and hunters are not allowed to wander on Navajo land. Hopi and Apache also restrict non-Indian access to their reservations. The amount of land isn't the issue, property rights are the issue. Geocaching.com has specific rules regarding property rights. Cachers leave footprints and over time footprints become paths. I'm not talking about sites that are otherwise restricted, I'm talking about sites that do allow some sort of access, IE Four Corners: As long as picture taking and tourism is okay with the Nation at a particular site, how could they possibly stop people from visiting a non-physical cache? It is kind of like the zero tolerance rules in schools. Kids get tossed out because some teacher found an aspirin in the bottom of a kids backpack. But wasn't the four corners virtual shutdown on a maintenance issue? That AND Armchair loggers Quote
sabrefan7 Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 None in NE AZ Northern MT and the place in NV Quote
+mcrow Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It must be a tribe by tribe sort of thing but here in MN they are all pretty open to Goecaching. There are multiple caches on reservations here. Quote
+Chokecherry Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It must be a tribe by tribe sort of thing but here in MN they are all pretty open to Goecaching. There are multiple caches on reservations here. It depends on the reservation in MN. There's various reservations here. Not all of them have caches on them. Quote
+speakers-corner Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Would it not be a good idea for Groundspeek to allow virtual caching on reservation land? Of course only with permission from the reservations. Quote
+CanadianRockies Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Would it not be a good idea for Groundspeek to allow virtual caching on reservation land? Of course only with permission from the reservations. I think Groundspeak already allows any sort of caching on reservation land, as long as permission is granted. Quote
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