Requesting public opinion...

October 24, 2002

I was denied posting this cache by admin today and am requesting your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=40698

This micro-cache is on Disney property. The issue surrounds caches that are commercial and on private property.

Is this really a commercial cache?

How many of you have paid a fee to cache at a Disney/Six Flags/Universal Studios/Zoos?

How many have paid an entrance fee to a park?

Is Disney really private land, hosting millions of guests each year in their parks and resorts?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, just trying to stretch our hobby/game.

October 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The4Bees:
I was denied posting this cache by admin today and am requesting your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=40698

This micro-cache is on Disney property. The issue surrounds caches that are commercial and on private property.

Is this really a commercial cache?

How many of you have paid a fee to cache at a Disney/Six Flags/Universal Studios/Zoos?

How many have paid an entrance fee to a park?

Is Disney really private land, hosting millions of guests each year in their parks and resorts?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, just trying to stretch our hobby/game.

1. The link is to the main seek a cache page, which tells me nothing about your cache.

2. Disney's properties most definitely are private property--try staying past closing time if you want to test this theory of yours

3. If you have actual permission from Disney to place a cache on their property, then tell Jeremy and submit the cache again. (I'm betting you don't have permission to place your property on someone'e else property, so this won't happen.)

4. So what if I've paid fees to enter a park?

--

wcgreen

Wendy Chatley Green

8.9k · October 24, 2002

Look at it this way:

Did you get permission to place the cache?

quote:
From the Requirements Page
We're assuming that you asked permission to post your cache. However, if we see any listing description mentioning ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing will be automatically archived.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

October 24, 2002

This cache is hidden on Tom Sawyer's Island in the Magic Kingdom.

Permission was not sought for obvious reasons.

The question about fees, was due to the response from admin. about what appears to be hesitancy to approve caches where admission fees are required.

There is some level of frustration about this denial in that I have searched for and most times found caches in the Magic Kindom, Epcot, San Diego Zoo, etc.

Whatever the group seems to be direction, I will go with. Thanks for the input!

6.5k · October 24, 2002

This micro-cache is on Disney property. The issue surrounds caches that are commercial and on private property.

1 Is this really a commercial cache?

>>>>if by commerical you mean anyone seeking this cache will have to pay a fee (to a private FOR-PROFIT) just to get into the area. then Yes

2 How many of you have paid a fee to cache at a Disney/Six Flags/Universal Studios/Zoos?

>>>>Are you asking how many times ive been to the zoo? To answer your question, ill say that almost everyone going into these sites has had to pay admission, unless they somehow got free tickets/passes etc.

3 How many have paid an entrance fee to a park?

>>>> 45,878,456? just quessing

but how many visitors do the national parks get each year? im sure its millions of visitors, but the difference is that when entering a park your usally paying to help maintain the park(trail upkeep, road repair, maintaince/replacement on whatever buildings may happen to be in the park, etc)

4 Is Disney really private land, hosting millions of guests each year in their parks and resorts?

>>>>>sure is. Have you ever hosted a block party? or any event where a large number of people collected at your house/property? is it still your property even after you allowed all those ppl on it??

5 Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, just trying to stretch our hobby/game.

>>>>> as others have suggested if you want to put a cache on disney property you should probly get permission first. i would find that more important than getting another commerical(ist?) cache approved. the reason being if disney found out about it and desided they did not like you, or that you had somehow caused them problems, i think they would seek legal actions against you. Which would likely cost you a large sum of cache, er cash

[This message was edited by welch on October 24, 2002 at 09:43 AM.]

20.7k · October 24, 2002

I understand your frustration since there are similar caches already (including a micro on Tom Sawyer's island). However, they are right.

In my opinion, this one should not be approved simply because permission has not been obtained. I disagree that it should be considered 'commercial' in nature and therefore refused. This issue has been discussed at length in previous threads.

Personally, I wish it were approved. I certainly would seek it. Oh well...

October 24, 2002

I would not mind going after this one if I was paying a visit to the park...there are already a heap of caches in the various Orlando theme parks which have been approved. If your cache isn't going to be allowed, then all of those other ones currently at the theme parks should be archived as well.

3k · October 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by infosponge:
If your cache isn't going to be allowed, then all of those other ones currently at the theme parks should be archived as well.

Indeed. And after they have been archived, I suggest Elias flies down in the Groundspeak.com bizjet and removes the now-abandoned caches ... but he should be careful at the one (is it at Disney All-Star Resort?) where the cache owner warns against making a scene by "flapping one's arms like a chicken." (Never mind ... I just checked, and that one has already been archived.)

1.4k · October 24, 2002

First of all, if you have to give money to a company to find the cache that is obviously a commercial cache. Park fees are different in the aspect they aren't making a profit and they aren't a commercial company.

Second, admin. has already stated that in cases where a cache isn't approved, past approval of a similar cache isn't a reason for it to be approved. If it were, there would be no way to change guidelines or avoid previous mistakes.

---Real men cache in shorts.

1.4k · October 24, 2002

With the way I've seen these "parks" get cleaned and every detail is taken into account. What are the chances a cache would go unfound by "park" employees?

---Real men cache in shorts.

20.7k · October 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
(Never mind ... I just checked, and that one has already been archived.)

Actually, I think it was just temporarily off-line. Its back and was found on 10/21.

The micro that was on Tom Sawyer's island has been archived.

20.7k · October 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:
With the way I've seen these "parks" get cleaned and every detail is taken into account. What are the chances a cache would go unfound by "park" employees?

There are/have been a number of caches within these parks in the past. These caches have lasted quite a while.

Your point is a good one, however. It is unlikely that the Disney machine is not aware of these caches.

8.9k · October 24, 2002

The only other comment that I failed to make in my previous post is that I do NOT think that this is a commercial cache. Just paying an entrance fee does not mean that you're trying to trick someone into buy something.

IMO, the commercialization of caches is when there is blatant advertising in the placement or contents. Inside Joe's Coffee Shop placed by Joe is an example of commercial placement. I don't pay a fee to get in to his Coffee Shop, but the idea is just to get me into his shop to coerce me to buy his coffee.

In this case, it wasn't Disney that set up the cache. If it had been, then I would whole-heartedly agree that it was a commercial cache.

I disagree (and there are old threads in which I said this then) that simply paying an entrance fee to a park (private or public) makes a cache commercial.

However - as stated above, I have problems with the cache for other reasons posted above.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

October 24, 2002

Thanks for your input, although some of it has been brutal :-).

I think the main issue here is permission. The key is to ask yourself when placing any cache, should there be permission? I agree with some, where it is quite possible these parks and attractions know geocaching is occurring and allow it. This would have been the 5th one placed in the Florida parks.

The groundskeepers are very good, making the search for the "perfect" spot challenging.

All in all, I believe we all need to be more diligent in seeking permission when it is needed. I did a quick check on the some of the caches hidden by the respondents and there are some, where permission should have been pursued.

Perhaps admin. will be due diligent in applying consistent practices in allowing these types of caches to exist and archive those that break the guidelines.

Secondly, I believe the debate over is it a commercial cache or is it not a commercial cache will be longstanding and not solved within this thread. I hardly doubt someone will pay $55 to simply follow a gps throughout a park to find a cache and then walk out. Most of us here near the attractions, go to the attractions and cache along the way and/or while inside.

However interpreted, thank you for your input and instruction for this enjoyable hobby/sport!

2.5k · October 24, 2002

I agree with Markwell except sometimes a little coffee at the geocache would be nice

9.1k · October 24, 2002

I would just like to compliment The4Bees for the constructive tone of your postings. All too often, people post a topic in the forums, ask what everyone thinks, and then get angry when they discover that the weight of opinion is against their position.

On nearly any topic, you can pretty much expect that someone will disagree with you, because of the diversity of the geocaching community. I am just waiting for Team Oscar the Grouch to weigh in with a pro-garbage stance in the "Cache in, Trash Out" discussion that is now going on in another thread.

If everyone would be as understanding, these forums would be even more civilized. Or maybe it's because The4Bees aren't regular participants here. We would value your level-headed approach elsewhere.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?

1.4k · October 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:
The only other comment that I failed to make in my previous post is that I do NOT think that this is a commercial cache. Just paying an entrance fee does not mean that you're trying to trick someone into buy something.

IMO, the commercialization of caches is when there is blatant advertising in the placement or contents. Inside Joe's Coffee Shop placed by Joe is an example of commercial placement. I don't pay a fee to get in to his Coffee Shop, but the idea is just to get me into his shop to coerce me to buy his coffee.

In this case, it wasn't Disney that set up the cache. If it had been, then I would whole-heartedly agree that it was a commercial cache.

Once it's in place what's the difference who placed it there? The end result is the same. Just looking at it from a geocaching angle, anyone wanting to go to this cache has to give Disney money.

I agree that people won't pay admission just to get the cache and leave, but that's kind of the point isn't it. If I'm not planning on going to the park, but I'm in the area I can't get the cache because I'd have to do just that. It is excluding anyone that didn't pay Disney money.

---Real men cache in shorts.

3k · October 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:
It is excluding anyone that didn't pay Disney money.

Yes, and people who cache with their dogs are excluded from some parks (and therefore any caches in those parks) ... people without specific equipment or skills are excluded from doing other caches ... people with certain physical handicaps are excluded from doing many more caches.

Since when has "total inclusion" been a requirement for cache approval?

I don't care if the powers-that-be decide such a cache is unsuitable, but if they do, then they should quit the hypocrisy (otherwise known as "grandfathering") and archive similar existing caches. Fair for one; fair for all.

9.2k · October 25, 2002

I don't think the fact that an admission fee is required has anything to do with it being disallowed. After all, this cache also requires admission to a theme park. The difference is that the cache isn't hidden within the park - so it's not hidden on private property, and no permission was required.

October 25, 2002

I thought the basic thought was to send people to meaningful places. Theme parks are as interesting as a mall. Only reason I went to Orlando parks was to see the castings I helped produce while I lived in south FL. Left with a bad taste in my mouth... I live in a tourist based economy, but I put my caches off the beaten track so cachers can see why people live, and have lived on this sandbar.

Wonder what 'Uncle Walt' would think...

October 25, 2002

Just because you need to pay to get in does not mean it should not be allowed. This has been clearly allowed in the past. I have done two caches in other Florida theme parks, both of which are still active.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=12934

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=17931

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

1.4k · October 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:
It is excluding anyone that didn't pay Disney money.

Yes, and people who cache with their dogs are excluded from some parks (and therefore any caches in those parks) ... people without specific equipment or skills are excluded from doing other caches ... people with certain physical handicaps are excluded from doing many more caches.

Since when has "total inclusion" been a requirement for cache approval?

The exclusion in this case is commercial where it isn't in the other examples.

---Real men cache in shorts.

October 26, 2002

I think that cache is inappropiate. It can be viewed as an attempt to generate business. I would seek out a cache in a location like that only if I happened to be there.

http://www.netwalk.com/~jporter/picto2.gif

October 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Lone Duck:
I think that cache is inappropiate. It can be viewed as an attempt to generate business. I would seek out a cache in a location like that only if I happened to be there.

http://www.netwalk.com/~jporter/picto2.gif

Using that same arguement, I would only seek out a cache in Hawaii if I happened to be there as well. Since I would either have to take a commercial plane or commercial ship to get there, a cache in Hawaii could be viewed as an attempt to generate business for the commercial air/cruise business. Therefore, all caches in Hawaii should be banned. See, the logic makes no sense.

The powers that be need to clear up the guidelines regarding this. Lots of similar caches have been approved in the past, so I don't see why this one should be denied. Here are some more examples of ones that have been approved.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=19341

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=20037

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=7047

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=37934

These are all in Disney parks and are real (not virtual caches. All have been approved and I doubt Disney actually gave permission for any of them.

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

6.5k · October 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by GoldKey:
Using that same arguement, I would only seek out a cache in Hawaii if I happened to be there as well. Since I would either have to take a commercial plane or commercial ship to get there, a cache in Hawaii could be viewed as an attempt to generate business for the commercial air/cruise business. Therefore, all caches in Hawaii should be banned. See, the logic makes no sense.

Well, you could buy yourself a boat or plane and take that there. and unless you started yourself a company it would be private(non-commerical). but would still cause you to spend money to look for this cache. but the same could be said for auto makers, and any other form of transportation...

quote:
The powers that be need to clear up the guidelines regarding this. Lots of similar caches have been approved in the past, so I don't see why this one should be denied. Here are some more examples of ones that have been approved.

i think they've made it clear as mud

anything thats commerical or could be considered commerical will not be posted. And any caches that happen to be somehow commerical but were approved before the rules were modified are grandfathered in. It's even stated that referring to a similar caches that has been previously approved is not reason to get your cache approved.

Thats how it currently is, even if it blocks a cache being place by someone that "just happens to be there" for other cachers that may "happen to be there anyways" later.

But as ive said, if this cache had formal approval (not just leaving the ones they may have found or already know about), that would one less thing to hold against it.

October 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by welch:
And any caches that happen to be somehow commerical but were approved before the rules were modified are grandfathered in. It's even stated that referring to a similar caches that has been previously approved is not reason to get your cache approved.

Thats how it currently is, even if it blocks a cache being place by someone that "just happens to be there" for other cachers that may "happen to be there anyways" later.

Exactly when were the rules "modified" and the decision made to allow caches to be grandfathered in? This cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=37934

was approved only 1 month ago and I don't see a difference.

It is a matter of semantics, but the rule reads as follows:

"What is a commercial cache? A commercial use of the web site cache reporting tool is an direct or indirect (either intentional or non-intentional) attempt to solicit customers through a geocaching.com listing. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. "

Does the cache placer have a commercial interest in Disney? Don' know, but if they don't, how can it be considered a commercial use of the website. The placer is not profiting by placing the cache. I doubt anyone is going to pay the entrance fee just to geocache. Cache log "Paid $50 to enter park, found cache, took Happy Meal Toy, left Where's George dollar, immediately left the park because I had no desire to visit Disney, only came to get the cache." I enjoy combining caching with other vacation things.

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

6.5k · October 26, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by GoldKey:
Exactly when were the rules "modified" and the decision made to allow caches to be grandfathered in?

i have no date on that, and im not going to bother to scour the forums to find out.

but if you look far enough back youll see where its brought up.

quote:
This cache was approved only 1 month ago and I don't see a difference.

then bring it up to an admin, and while your at it, ASK THEM why.

quote:
"What is a commercial cache? A commercial use of the web site cache reporting tool is an direct or indirect (either intentional or non-intentional) attempt to solicit customers through a geocaching.com listing. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

i think right there "for-profit locations that require an entrance fee" is where this ones getting stuck....

quote:
Does the cache placer have a commercial interest in Disney? Don' know, but if they don't, how can it be considered a commercial use of the website.

because the cache would be in a "for-profit locations that require an entrance fee"

quote:
The placer is not profiting by placing the cache. I doubt anyone is going to pay the entrance fee just to geocache.

i dont recall ever having said the placer would profit from placing a cache. and i agree that no one would pay to enter just to find the cache, have i ever claimed otherwise?

quote:
I enjoy combining caching with other vacation things.

as do i. please refer to previous post in which i stated '...cache being place by someone that "just happens to be there" for other cachers that may "happen to be there anyways" later.'

ill say this one more time, if this cache had formal approval (not just being left alone), that would one less thing to hold against it.

The4Bees wants to place it, you seem to want to find it(if you were there), i would find it if i ever happened to be there and so would many others as shown by the other caches already on disney property.

so, who does that leave stoping this cache? the admins, and i would think they can be convinced to list it anyways, as you've even pointed out commerical caches are STILL being listed.

October 27, 2002

IMHO it's not commercial because Disney doesn't need Caches to get more customers

The real question is should one ask permission because it's on a private property? I would say yes except if you like urbancaching!

Legendeo game is still in Beta!

1.4k · October 28, 2002

I also don't think it's commercial. I did one cache once that ended you up in some guy's health food store. But you didn't know where you were going ahead of time. In this case you know it's in Disney and if you're going to Disney... why not find the caches there.

However, I'm going to Disney in November and I'm 120% certain I won't be caching. I LOVE geocaching... but I'm not going to disney for the micros

It is private property though.

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

3k · November 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:
It is excluding anyone that didn't pay Disney money.

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
...Since when has "total inclusion" been a requirement for cache approval?

quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:The exclusion in this case is commercial where it isn't in the other examples.

Oops. I lost track of this thread. Like many others, I disagree that this is a commercial venture, because no one is going to pay the exorbitant Disney entrance fee solely to attempt finding a few caches. Disney is not profiting from any caches placed there. Neither have the cache placers, to the best of my knowledge.

If the collection of an entrance fee is the primary concern, then every local/county/state/national park that charges an entrance fee should be excluded ... especially those where the entrance fee goes into a general fund rather than directly to the site involved.

Requesting public opinion...

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment