Time restraint before posting a first cache

[+L0ne.R]

I'm spinning this discussion off of a recent forum post about newbie COs. The topic usually comes up when there's a rash of newbie cachers who have no finds or signs they they have done any caching and then put out one or two bad caches - usually breaking one or two guidelines most often the private property or school property issue and/or very poor coordinates. The usual suggestion is to have new COs find at least a few caches before being allowed to post their first cache. Since that suggestion will never be adopted by GS, let's talk about a time commitment.

 

My suggestion: a new CO must be registered for 3 months before he/she can hide a cache. It shows some commitment to the game. I think this would weed out fly-by-nighters, and assignment caches (high school kids that get a 'plant a cache' as a geography assignment). What do you think? Pros/cons?

[jd-mitchell]

i would suggest a certain activity level as well. If there's just a time element, then the potential CO could just lurk for the 3 months (or however long), & not gain anything. Just a thought.

Edited April 24, 2011 by jd-mitchell

[+CacheFreakTim]

I think lots of people feel the same way but GS has been silent on the issue. The problem is let's say they decide to allow those with a minimum of 30 caches, people will just quickly log 30. GS would need to base it on a length of time instead of number of caches for it to work.

[MrGeoFox]

I'd rather see it based on # of finds than time. 3 months is a long time (in some places that makes up the whole of summer), and it would be a shame to limit player's experience, I would say that if someone had found 25 caches, by that time they probably have seen enough to be responsible with their placements.

[jd-mitchell]

I wasn't thinking of one or the other, but both time & activity.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I think lots of people feel the same way but GS has been silent on the issue. The problem is let's say they decide to allow those with a minimum of 30 caches, people will just quickly log 30. GS would need to base it on a length of time instead of number of caches for it to work.

 

GS hasn't exactly been silent on the issue. One of the proposals under consideration in the Feedback site is to use a "quiz" to test knowledge of the guidelines. Someone can take the quiz as often as they'd like and once they answered a minimum number of questions correctly it's sets a flag which allows them to submit a cache for publishing. Personally, I like this approach because it's not based on the number of finds. One has (one trip to a power trail with 100+ nearly identical hides would satisfy a "minimum hides" requirement, and a time based requirement doesn't necessarily indicate a level of experience. Answering a quiz can indicate that a potential cache owner has read and understands the guidelines much better than just checking a "I have read and understand the guidelines". Even if someone fails the quiz the first time, eventually they'll learn the "correct answer" and presumably understand the intent of the guidelines.

[+CacheFreakTim]

I wasn't thinking of one or the other, but both time & activity.

 

Good call. Maybe a compromise of 20 finds and at lest one month. Sound good or would you add more time/caches?

[+KBfamily]

We found 100 caches before we placed our first cache....I really wanted to see what was out there to make sure I did a good job...but, we did 100 in our first couple of weeks...so I would NOT have liked it if I had been forced to wait three months...

What about a fellow cacher as a newbie coach or mentor or something?...I don't know what the logistics would look like...but time and number constraints doesn't fit all situations....

My brother has 36 caches and has been caching for 2 months....he is TOTALLY capable of placing a great cache...so, I do not agree with constraints the way you have suggested but maybe there is a compromise and we just need a creative person to think one up.

[jd-mitchell]

I think that could depends on the difficulty / type of cache. Obviously , the Power trail would carry different weight than a 2/2 (or higher) single. I also like the idea of a quiz that covers some basic knowledge.

[+CacheFreakTim]

One of the proposals under consideration in the Feedback site is to use a "quiz" to test knowledge of the guidelines.

 

I love this idea. It don't have to be a hard quiz either. Maybe give people scenarios and they have to say what the difficulty/terrain rating would be. You could also give a list of hiding spots and through multiple choice someone has to choose which is not the appropriate spot. The ideas are endless and I think it would lead to much better caches in the long run.

Edited April 24, 2011 by CacheFreakTim

[+Lieblweb]

I've been involved with a lot of clubs/organizations and I also helped run fascilitate these clubs/orgs - so I can completely understand the need to put some limits/guidelines for first timer 'hiders'.

 

I'm new.....however, I was exposed to geocaching 10 years ago - things were different back then and we never pursued it past 2 finds. Just this past week, we've gotten back into it hot & heavy. Found 35 caches in our first week or so. I've had a TB for 10 years sitting in my garage that we finally put in a cache last week. We hid 2 caches and waiting for approval.

 

I would expect a certain amount of 'finds' be under ones belt before being able to hide one. However, this might be somewhat discouraging to some new folks. The last thing you want to do, is discourage anyone from getting involved.

 

I would say - let that discision be up to the reviewer of the cache. They could take multiple things into consideration. How long have they been caching? How many finds? How many caches in their area? Are they logging in often or not? and anything else....

 

Because in all honesty - this hobby can be different things to different people. Work & family life can prevent someone from getting out and finding caches (or money). Who's to say that a new person can't hide a cache and sit back and just watch the activity and enjoy the hobby in that aspect....instead of being required to find caches. Is that so wrong?

 

If any given cache is hidden and not 'maintained' via the owner's lack of resonsibility, then let the masses of geocachers make notes/reports about this in the logs. Eventually, the cache will get a bad reputation (and the owner). I'm new so I don't know how all that works....but you'd think, any given problem would eventually solved.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Lieblweb

[+NanCycle]

GS hasn't exactly been silent on the issue. One of the proposals under consideration in the Feedback site is to use a "quiz" to test knowledge of the guidelines. Someone can take the quiz as often as they'd like and once they answered a minimum number of questions correctly it's sets a flag which allows them to submit a cache for publishing. Personally, I like this approach because it's not based on the number of finds. One has (one trip to a power trail with 100+ nearly identical hides would satisfy a "minimum hides" requirement, and a time based requirement doesn't necessarily indicate a level of experience. Answering a quiz can indicate that a potential cache owner has read and understands the guidelines much better than just checking a "I have read and understand the guidelines". Even if someone fails the quiz the first time, eventually they'll learn the "correct answer" and presumably understand the intent of the guidelines.

 

Now this is a really good idea. I'm going to go look for it in Feedback so I can vote for it, but in case I can't find it--and to make it easier for others--could you post a link?

 

OK I found it. Here's the link: http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/1115511-new-cacher-must-pass-an-online-Groundspeak-cours?ref=comments

Edited April 24, 2011 by DoubleBent

[+Panther&Pine]

While it would be great to have something like this, I feel it would need to be something that a query sting could look at (and would be very obvious to folks what was going on).

It would be nice to have a metric that looked at time (over a month I think would be reasonable) active, number of logins over that time (3-5), number of finds (10-15 with at 5-7 D/T combos), checking to see if any logs had been written on a PC (not just smart phone logs) and the ability to pass a little quiz would be fantastic.

However reality doesn't support this sort of thing. There would be a fair bit of whining about it.

[+kunarion]

I would say - let that discision be up to the reviewer of the cache. They could take multiple things into consideration. How long have they been caching? How many finds? How many caches in their area? Are they logging in often or not? and anything else....

Or leave it to the GC community. If it's a bad cache, use the proper logs & tools to make it go away.

 

There are several COs (some who should know better by now) who have always placed lousy throw-down containers in questionable spots, and I don't hunt their caches anymore. So, in the spirit of my reply, I should probably go find every trash cache, and get them archived.

 

My first container was in place for six months before I activated it. I'd support adding that to the guidelines, rather than a quiz or number of finds. Something like: "Place your container, and see how it fares through the seasons. If it proves to be in a bad spot, remove it. If it holds up well, untouched, consider activating it".

[+captnemo]

One of the proposals under consideration in the Feedback site is to use a "quiz" to test knowledge of the guidelines.

 

I love this idea. It don't have to be a hard quiz either. Maybe give people scenarios and they have to say what the difficulty/terrain rating would be. You could also give a list of hiding spots and through multiple choice someone has to choose which is not the appropriate spot. The ideas are endless and I think it would lead to much better caches in the long run.

+1 As other have said, you can get 100's of caches in a day with the power trails. Waiting a few months may discourge new members who have a great cache idea but have to wait.

 

Checked my own stats and I placed my first cache less then 60 days after I found my first and had found 4 caches before hiding one. PS. that cache is still out there and even gets found a couple of times a year.

Edited April 25, 2011 by captnemo

[+MM32]

NO GOVERNMENT CONTROL..... I love newbie hides. Get them quick because they will be gone soon. Get over the quality issues, log it and move on.....

[+kunarion]

you can get 100's of caches in a day with the power trails. Waiting a few months may discourge new members who have a great cache idea but have to wait.

But having to strictly abide The Rules (as defined by some "quiz") will also discourage great cache ideas.

 

Don't have a restriction for "newbies" to prevent them from hiding lousy caches. Whatever it is you do to prevent non-newbies from hiding lousy caches, do that.

Edited April 24, 2011 by kunarion

[+StarBrand]

A guidelines quiz was first suggested years ago. I even started a sample one up.

 

Generally, I am against ANY kind of restriction for first hide. However, I could live with a guidelines quiz - if we MUST have something in place.

[+tozainamboku]

One problem with this idea is that is makes it difficult to use "sock puppets" for hiding caches. I put "sock puppets" in quotes because unlike the use of sock puppets for posting in the forums which is forbidden in the forum guidelines, the reasons for using one when hiding a cache may be more benign.

 

One common is use is for joint ownership. A group may create a special team account for hiding caches that were hidden by the group. The members of the group share the password so anyone may do maintenance on the cache page as needed.

 

Sometimes a cacher will create a persona for hiding a particular series of caches. For example, a series of specially themed puzzles. Using a "sock puppet" name adds to the mystery of the puzzles as well as allowing finders to quickly identify the other puzzles in the series.

[+kunarion]

One problem with this idea is that is makes it difficult to use "sock puppets" for hiding caches.

True.

 

Instead of a "quiz", a variation of Clayjar's "Geocache Rating System" could be offered (available to all).

"Is it buried? Will people likely tend to dig for it?" (Yes/No)

"Is the container made of cardboard or pourous material?" (Yes/No)

-- If so is it indoors? (Yes/No)

 

Bunch of questions using common issues. Then it could make a kind of assessment, a "star rating" of cache goodness. I'd rather just NM/NA the trash cache when I find one, no quiz, no time restraint. Some prolific cachers have hidden real lousy caches, and the consensus is that they won't be subject to the "restraint".

Edited April 24, 2011 by kunarion

[+Sol seaker]

you can get 100's of caches in a day with the power trails. Waiting a few months may discourge new members who have a great cache idea but have to wait.

But having to strictly abide The Rules (as defined by some "quiz") will also discourage great cache ideas.

 

Don't have a restriction for "newbies" to prevent them from hiding lousy caches. Whatever it is you do to prevent non-newbies from hiding lousy caches, do that.

 

A cache idea is not "great" if it breaks the rules.

The point of the quiz would be for people to adhere to the rules.

The quiz will define the rules the same way the knowledge books define them.

If a cache does not follow them it should not be placed.

There really aren't very many rules, and the ones that are there are there for a reason.

 

One problem with this idea is that is makes it difficult to use "sock puppets" for hiding caches. I put "sock puppets" in quotes because unlike the use of sock puppets for posting in the forums which is forbidden in the forum guidelines, the reasons for using one when hiding a cache may be more benign.

 

One common is use is for joint ownership. A group may create a special team account for hiding caches that were hidden by the group. The members of the group share the password so anyone may do maintenance on the cache page as needed.

 

Sometimes a cacher will create a persona for hiding a particular series of caches. For example, a series of specially themed puzzles. Using a "sock puppet" name adds to the mystery of the puzzles as well as allowing finders to quickly identify the other puzzles in the series.

 

The only way I could see it making it "difficult" to place caches under sock puppets is because you would have to take the quiz for each sock puppet. If you know the rules then this should not be a problem. If you do not know the rules, then it would be a good thing to take the quiz and learn the ones you don't know.

[+TeamDadcubed]

IMO Sol seaker has hit it right on the head. Some quantifiable proof is needed other than an "I agree" yada yada check box that a CO knows the guidelines well enough to not ENDANGER the entire community of geocaching with their cache placement. Our reviewers are volunteers, and to ask them to be the cache police is both unfair to them and truly impossible. They can speak for themselves, but if I envision myself in their position I would be scared to open my email for the amount of work that would entail.

 

As a community, it is our responsibility to police ourselves! If that entails a quiz (my personal preference), waiting period or even a certain found count, we have to remember what it's there to prevent. When a bad cache placement gets press, or even "official" notice, it's one step closer to having outside agencies step in with restictions and regulations. I don't think I have to state the obvious, but for clarity, that has never worked smoothly and can easily lead to restrictions if not out right bans on caching.

 

Another aspect of that same issue is the enjoyment of finding those "bad" caches. Wet logs from non-watertight containers to muggle heavy GZs and all the in-between issues, detract from the game for, I dare say, a majority of the folks here. Even power cachers, who enjoy the numbers side of the game, are not going to enjoy risking their safety to pull over to the side of a busy road to "dash and cache" while endangering the rest of the motorists driving by. Or the park by the school cache that the seeker is going after only to be questioned by police because a soccer mom didn't know what the seeker was up to and called in suspicious activity. There are tales of woe thruout this forum of different scenarios we find ourselves in everytime we are out caching.

 

In short, do we, each of us, step up and enforce a set of guidelines that helps Geocaching thrive and allow us continued enjoyment? Or do we sit back on our lorals and let yet another hobby, game, or sport (you choose for yourself) be restricted or banned because of innapropiate behavior and/or bad hides?

 

Thanks for reading

 

Dad of TeamDadcubed

[+Chokecherry]

I'm a fan of the test or time thing but not the cache count for three reasons. Reason 1 is that for more urban people it's not thing to hit a bunch of parking lots and you learn how to hide micro caches well but might not have access to anything else to learn them well. And you're not necessarily learning a thing about legal cache placement like that. 2 there are a bunch of us who don't live in cache saturated areas. It took a lot of traveling for me to get the caches I have found. Three goes in with 2. There are caches who have mobility issues and can only access a handful of caches. Who better to place caches for others with similar issues than someone with those issues? But if they can't find enough caches to qualify them to hide one due to the caches not existing then we lose a valuate part of our community right there.

 

So I'm more into the quiz thing. You can "age" bogus accounts and adopt caches between them in need be if you don't want to hide under your normal name. I used to know people who would age sock puppet accounts to post on forums with time restrictions a lot.

 

I also agree that realistically all this talk about us policing ourselves is kind of a silly argument because we have the tools in front of us to police ourselves. People just don't use them. If you find a problem cache put the NA up on it. It's not that hard. Or contact the reviewer. In many areas new caches are found pretty quickly after they're published. Likely in that bunch of first people to find it will be someone with some experience who would know the rules and be able to note a violation in an NA log.

 

I think we need to start using the tools we have now before making more rules and hoops to jump through. If people want so desperately to police themselves then start doing it.

[+Harry Dolphin]

NO GOVERNMENT CONTROL..... I love newbie hides. Get them quick because they will be gone soon. Get over the quality issues, log it and move on.....

+1 That sort of says it all. Or you could ignore the cache, hoping it goes away quickly. But that doesn't always happen.

I hid my first cache after a month and a half, and about thirty finds). It has had 45 finds (and three favorites), and is still there six and a half years later! If they'd make me wait three months, I mght have lost interest in showing people places that I like.

You can measure all sorts of things, but common sense is hard to measure, and that is often what defines a good cache.

[+StarBrand]

One problem with this idea is that is makes it difficult to use "sock puppets" for hiding caches.

True.

 

Instead of a "quiz", a variation of Clayjar's "Geocache Rating System" could be offered (available to all).

"Is it buried? Will people likely tend to dig for it?" (Yes/No)

"Is the container made of cardboard or pourous material?" (Yes/No)

-- If so is it indoors? (Yes/No)

 

Bunch of questions using common issues. Then it could make a kind of assessment, a "star rating" of cache goodness. I'd rather just NM/NA the trash cache when I find one, no quiz, no time restraint. Some prolific cachers have hidden real lousy caches, and the consensus is that they won't be subject to the "restraint".

 

Here is what I suggested some years ago....

 

http://wnag.net/checklist/

[+Lieblweb]

Our reviewers are volunteers, and to ask them to be the cache police is both unfair to them and truly impossible. They can speak for themselves, but if I envision myself in their position I would be scared to open my email for the amount of work that would entail.

I'll have to slighty argue with you on this....and only becuase I've done volunteer work for other organizations/clubs in the past. The bottom line is - Don't voluteer for something if you can't get the job done. I don't know what the reviwers are required to do, but if they're overloaded with work (as you make it sound), then perhaps there needs to be more volunteers to disperse the work load.

 

My first two hidden caches & the responses from the reviewers was exceptional. They have rules to follow and only doing their job and were rather quick in doing so. I took care of what I needed to and they were quick to get things moving. Kudos to the reviewers!!

 

Obviously, the reviewers are not the geocache police. I don't know fully how the system works...but....they are the first step prior to approval of new cache hides. Do they actually visit the cache sites? Should there be more volunteers to visit the cache sites before approval? Or should we just let the logs tell the story? Surely, it's A LOT OF WORK. OR simply let the log notes tell the story.

 

Question: Is there a REPORT button? Say for instance, you find (or don't find) a cache in a questionable area. You can hit the REPORT button to report something that is questionable and some reviewers (or other volunteers) can look more closely at the cache site and make decisions from there.

 

Again, from a newbie looking in.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Lieblweb

[+StarBrand]

...

I'll have to slighty argue with you on this....and only becuase I've done volunteer work for other organizations/clubs in the past. The bottom line is - Don't voluteer for something if you can't get the job done. I don't know what the reviwers are required to do, but if they're overloaded with work (as you make it sound), then perhaps there needs to be more volunteers to disperse the work load.

 

My first two hidden caches & the responses from the reviewers was exceptional. They have rules to follow and only doing their job and were rather quick in doing so. I took care of what I needed to and they were quick to get things moving. Kudos to the reviewers!!

 

Obviously, the reviewers are not the geocache police. I don't know fully how the system works...but....they are the first step prior to approval of new cache hides. Do they actually visit the cache sites?

No - they use online maps and local knowledge to asses the listing for compliance with the guidelines - then a cache can be published - not really approved of.

 

Should there be more volunteers to visit the cache sites before approval? Or should we just let the logs tell the story? Surely, it's A LOT OF WORK. OR simply let the log notes tell the story.

 

Question: Is there a REPORT button? Say for instance, you find (or don't find) a cache in a questionable area. You can hit the REPORT button to report something that is questionable and some reviewers (or other volunteers) can look more closely at the cache site and make decisions from there.

 

That is called an NA ('needs archived') log type.

 

 

Again, from a newbie looking in.

[+kunarion]

A cache idea is not "great" if it breaks the rules.

The point of the quiz would be for people to adhere to the rules.

The quiz will define the rules the same way the knowledge books define them.

If a cache does not follow them it should not be placed.

There really aren't very many rules, and the ones that are there are there for a reason.

No, no, no!! Well, OK. You're right.

 

I'm thinking of caches inside a business, or buried, or inside an electrical panel, or in the middle of a railroad track, or anyplace that's "not within the guidelines", which will each be a perfect cache placement in maybe a couple spots on earth. The quiz would rule them out -- don't make them be ruled out. Sure, don't start a trend where every-monkey places caches on the railroad because they saw someone else do that, but also don't make it so that it could never, ever be done in some clever, legal, unique and fun cache hide. Okay, if you say it's too tempting to others, so always stay exactly within the guidelines regardless, I can roll with that. But many caches can and do "violate the rules" (new caches, too), because they are very cool exceptions.

 

I can also think of a few cachers with thousands of finds who really could use a refresher quiz.

Edited April 25, 2011 by kunarion

[+TeamDadcubed]

Our reviewers are volunteers, and to ask them to be the cache police is both unfair to them and truly impossible. They can speak for themselves, but if I envision myself in their position I would be scared to open my email for the amount of work that would entail.

 

To clarify that point... Reviewers aren't and I don't think they should be called on to be the cache police. They make sure the guidelines are met by the information you give them on the cache page then publish it or ask you for additional information. To ask more of them then that would require more time than should be asked on a volunteer basis IMHO. Then you get into the "sticky wicket" of a paid police force again...

[+kunarion]

Here is what I suggested some years ago....

 

http://wnag.net/checklist/

If it were part of the "I Agree" submission, people could click the various "Yes/No" answers to a list of guideline issues. I'd be happy to have that list (in a link) on each of my cache pages, for future reference, and particularly if it's a help for reviewers. So when someone visits my cache, and they look at the list, they may NA my cache, because "you checked 'No it's not buried', but it's buried 8 feet deep. Pants on fire." Or something.

 

If the "quiz" idea never goes anywhere, let's at least come up with a list that can be added to cache descriptions. I would add it.

Edited April 24, 2011 by kunarion

[+El Diablo]

Hiding a cache isn't rocket science. If we went with these rules 10 years ago the sport/game/hobbie would have died. When Dave Ulmer hid the first cache he had never found one before. I think I had 3 or 4 finds before I hid my first, if that many. You don't need a lot of experience to hide a cache, just some common sense.

 

El Diablo

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Our reviewers are volunteers, and to ask them to be the cache police is both unfair to them and truly impossible. They can speak for themselves, but if I envision myself in their position I would be scared to open my email for the amount of work that would entail.

I'll have to slighty argue with you on this....and only becuase I've done volunteer work for other organizations/clubs in the past. The bottom line is - Don't voluteer for something if you can't get the job done. I don't know what the reviwers are required to do, but if they're overloaded with work (as you make it sound), then perhaps there needs to be more volunteers to disperse the work load.

 

My first two hidden caches & the responses from the reviewers was exceptional. They have rules to follow and only doing their job and were rather quick in doing so. I took care of what I needed to and they were quick to get things moving. Kudos to the reviewers!!

 

Obviously, the reviewers are not the geocache police. I don't know fully how the system works...but....they are the first step prior to approval of new cache hides. Do they actually visit the cache sites? Should there be more volunteers to visit the cache sites before approval? Or should we just let the logs tell the story? Surely, it's A LOT OF WORK. OR simply let the log notes tell the story.

 

No, reviewers do not visit every cache. Essentially, there are some guidelines such as proximity to railroads, schools, and other caches that a reviewer can verify, and reviewers have access to property maps and are aware of various regional policies which might prohibit caches in certain locations. However, there are also several guidelines such as the "no buried caches" or "do not deface property to hide a container" and others that a reviewer can't verify and thus must rely on the fact that the person submitting the cache listing actually has read, understood, and followed those guidelines, when they checked the "I have read and understand the guidelines box". The problem is that a failure to adhere to some of those unverifiable guidelines can cause issues with land manager and potentially give geocaching a black eye and even cause a land manager to explicitly prohibit the game in some areas.

[+rosebud55112]

I've had a TB for 10 years sitting in my garage that we finally put in a cache last week.

 

Going off-topic to the main point of this thread, but I want to say thanks for putting that traveler back into play (it's not mine). It's always good to see travelers that had seemed to disappear off the face of the earth show up again. Glad you still knew where it was and what it was after ten years!

[+BigAl437]

Lots of good comments here. I think before someone hides a cache they should have found a couple of them just to see how it's done. I think I had about 12 caches under my belt before I hid my first one. My son just hid his first one today and he only has 18 finds. But then again he has been with me on most of my finds and some of my hides. I have been mentoring him for some time now. He just got his own account in Feb of this year. He did a great job with his hide, and he looks forward to hiding even more. I think a lot of it has to do with the training they have had. But this is just my opinion.

[+Don_J]

A guidelines quiz was first suggested years ago. I even started a sample one up.

 

Generally, I am against ANY kind of restriction for first hide. However, I could live with a guidelines quiz - if we MUST have something in place.

 

I have always agreed with this, but two local caches published a few days ago, and two today, really have me shaking my head. The first two were by the same person, a member for less than a week, no finds. They both point to the roofs of private residences. Todays, two friends joined yesterday, found one cache and each placed a cache. One points to the center of the LA River, the other to the middle of a lawn on a private residence. After a DNF on the latter, the CO posted a note that it is on the dead end sign. The house is three houses away.

 

I think that it is getting to a point that we must have something in place, something that shows that the cacher is ready to hide a cache, but doesn't discourage them in the process.

[+KBfamily]

I'm a fan of the test or time thing but not the cache count for three reasons. Reason 1 is that for more urban people it's not thing to hit a bunch of parking lots and you learn how to hide micro caches well but might not have access to anything else to learn them well. And you're not necessarily learning a thing about legal cache placement like that. 2 there are a bunch of us who don't live in cache saturated areas. It took a lot of traveling for me to get the caches I have found. Three goes in with 2. There are caches who have mobility issues and can only access a handful of caches. Who better to place caches for others with similar issues than someone with those issues? But if they can't find enough caches to qualify them to hide one due to the caches not existing then we lose a valuate part of our community right there.

 

So I'm more into the quiz thing. You can "age" bogus accounts and adopt caches between them in need be if you don't want to hide under your normal name. I used to know people who would age sock puppet accounts to post on forums with time restrictions a lot.

 

I also agree that realistically all this talk about us policing ourselves is kind of a silly argument because we have the tools in front of us to police ourselves. People just don't use them. If you find a problem cache put the NA up on it. It's not that hard. Or contact the reviewer. In many areas new caches are found pretty quickly after they're published. Likely in that bunch of first people to find it will be someone with some experience who would know the rules and be able to note a violation in an NA log.

 

I think we need to start using the tools we have now before making more rules and hoops to jump through. If people want so desperately to police themselves then start doing it.

 

How many times is there a question on the forums about how to log a TB or Coin? We need a few quizzes....Let's admit it, no one likes to read a bunch of rules and regulations...I didn't...honestly...I didn't read up on anything until I needed it....I KNOW I am not the only one....I really like the quiz idea.....

[+kunarion]

I think we need to start using the tools we have now before making more rules and hoops to jump through. If people want so desperately to police themselves then start doing it.

+1

 

But even the suggested "improvements" are already in place. As for a probation period, I already do that. I often let others find new COs' caches, so the bugs get worked out (I can also check to see if coords lead to "the middle of a street", before even going there). And when the description says "pringles tube under some bushes", that Cache Owner has already failed the quiz.

Edited April 25, 2011 by kunarion

[+L0ne.R]

Hiding a cache isn't rocket science.

 

I agree that it's not rocket science. So why is it so hard for some new cachers?

 

If we went with these rules 10 years ago the sport/game/hobbie would have died. When Dave Ulmer hid the first cache he had never found one before.

 

Times have changed since the first cache placement. When Ulmer placed that cache there were no guidelines now there's a whole Knowledge Books site of guidelines and instructions.

 

In the early years geocaching was also an adult's game. A substantial monetary investment was involved. A cheap GPS unit was at least $100, most of us were spending around $350 for a decent unit.

Now there are GPS apps that come with most cell phones. And for those without apps you can get fuzzy coordinates with google maps and google earth.

 

Last year, in my area, a kid hid a cache on private property (which was promptly removed by the superintendent of the apartment complex) and when the private property issue was pointed out in the DNF logs the kid's response: "Screw privte P." Then when it was pointed out that "Screw privte P" is not acceptable, the kid 'walks' the cache over to a new spot by posting 12 coordinate changes. When cachers post notes that you can't "walk" the coords to a new location by posting a coord change every 161m the CO posts: "why and i did not know there was a 161 m limit so y are u being disrepectful". Then he posts a "You win" note and archives the cache. A lot of angst went into this cache placement, both on the kid CO's side and on the local caching community side. The kid had 2 finds before placing his cache.

 

Currently cache logs are the the best way to handle the problem - .post notes in the cache log explaining the problem, post DNFs, NMs and NAs. Educate the CO and if they won't play nice hopefully they'll go away. I hope GS will at least implement the guidelines quiz. It may prevent cache placements like the above example.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

I recently sent an email to a first cache hider with no finds. No response. I went looking for his cache.

GZ was in an open area with bitterbrush and elk droppings. I checked everything within 60' that could hide a cache. I filed a DNF and suggested that they find some before hiding. Another cacher searched the area and gave a DNF as well. Next week if no one finds it, I will file a NA. They may not even respond to the reviewer at this point.

I hid my first cache when I had only found 10 but it had good coords and was found by the first cacher that looked for it. It's been out there nearly 6 years.

[+A & J Tooling]

I just wish ya'll would agree on something. Anyho, while you discuss the why's & whats, I'm slowly building my original caches. Can't wait for ya' to come to a conclusion so I can start hauling them out. They are really starting to clutter up my yard.

[+Chokecherry]

I think we need to start using the tools we have now before making more rules and hoops to jump through. If people want so desperately to police themselves then start doing it.

+1

 

But even the suggested "improvements" are already in place. As for a probation period, I already do that. I often let others find new COs' caches, so the bugs get worked out (I can also check to see if coords lead to "the middle of a street", before even going there). And when the description says "pringles tube under some bushes", that Cache Owner has already failed the quiz.

 

I don't do the FTF race thing. By the time I get out at least one person has found it if not 2-3 people. If the cache sounds like a nightmare I just don't do it. I'm not a radius slave either though.

 

Also if people have a huge problem with new cachers hiding caches, finding TB's etc. one can be proactive and welcome them to the community. Right after I logged my first cache owner e-mailed me to welcome me and has been a good resource for me since then.

[+Olewaif]

I started caching mid August last year and placed my first hide a month later... I had about 120 finds at the time. I decided I did need to give back by placing hides but I certainly made my share of mistakes early on with some less-than-durable caches. I've replaced those as needed and now place hides that I think will be low maintenance. I have also tried to have a find/hide ratio of about 10/ 1 .. at present I have 1260 finds and 119 published hides with some others placed but not yet released, so I'm about on target. I do not know if I can keep this ratio up but we'll see. I just started doing other-then-traditional hides and have lots more of those planned too. I enjoy both side of the sport, love finding and enjoy dreaming up, making and placing hides, with now placing caches in more challenging terrain or with more devious hides as a fun aspect for me. I do NOT think my way is the only way , I think we all need to find our comfort level re making hides but I do agree that a little finding experience is a good idea as you get to see the good, bad and ugly that way before you try placing hides. I also do think that if you have a LOT of finds and no hides, you really should consider the ethics of being only a user and not a giver. I really think if you can go out and find a lot, you can also go out and place at least some for others to find.

[+Chokecherry]

I started caching mid August last year and placed my first hide a month later... I had about 120 finds at the time. I decided I did need to give back by placing hides but I certainly made my share of mistakes early on with some less-than-durable caches. I've replaced those as needed and now place hides that I think will be low maintenance. I have also tried to have a find/hide ratio of about 10/ 1 .. at present I have 1260 finds and 119 published hides with some others placed but not yet released, so I'm about on target. I do not know if I can keep this ratio up but we'll see. I just started doing other-then-traditional hides and have lots more of those planned too. I enjoy both side of the sport, love finding and enjoy dreaming up, making and placing hides, with now placing caches in more challenging terrain or with more devious hides as a fun aspect for me. I do NOT think my way is the only way , I think we all need to find our comfort level re making hides but I do agree that a little finding experience is a good idea as you get to see the good, bad and ugly that way before you try placing hides. I also do think that if you have a LOT of finds and no hides, you really should consider the ethics of being only a user and not a giver. I really think if you can go out and find a lot, you can also go out and place at least some for others to find.

 

I, personally, am being responsible in my caching not hiding any at this point as I do not have the time to maintain caches in a timely fashion if a problem should arise.

 

People need to do what they feel comfortable with, not be guilted into doing something they can't maintain.

[+Panther&Pine]

 

I, personally, am being responsible in my caching not hiding any at this point as I do not have the time to maintain caches in a timely fashion if a problem should arise.

 

People need to do what they feel comfortable with, not be guilted into doing something they can't maintain.

Agreed. I've got over 200 finds and over two years of caching and only one owned cache (and it is an event at that). I'm still finding a good spot and learning more about the game in my area.

I might be adopting a few caches soon, but for now that is about it for me.

[+Chokecherry]

 

I, personally, am being responsible in my caching not hiding any at this point as I do not have the time to maintain caches in a timely fashion if a problem should arise.

 

People need to do what they feel comfortable with, not be guilted into doing something they can't maintain.

Agreed. I've got over 200 finds and over two years of caching and only one owned cache (and it is an event at that). I'm still finding a good spot and learning more about the game in my area.

I might be adopting a few caches soon, but for now that is about it for me.

 

I spent last summer thoroughly researching a couple areas and getting permission only to find that a unexpected highway move is going to obliterate those areas. I haven't found another area that I really want to share. Or that I think is worthy of sharing. I could toss some caches on various mining waste sites (as so many do here) and call it good. I could find some random spots on the bike trail but I want to place a cache in someplace I find inspiring and that I can get to to maintain so I can do the cache justice.

[+niraD]

I started caching mid August last year and placed my first hide a month later... I had about 120 finds at the time. I decided I did need to give back by placing hides but I certainly made my share of mistakes early on with some less-than-durable caches. I've replaced those as needed and now place hides that I think will be low maintenance. I have also tried to have a find/hide ratio of about 10/ 1 .. at present I have 1260 finds and 119 published hides with some others placed but not yet released, so I'm about on target. I do not know if I can keep this ratio up but we'll see. I just started doing other-then-traditional hides and have lots more of those planned too. I enjoy both side of the sport, love finding and enjoy dreaming up, making and placing hides, with now placing caches in more challenging terrain or with more devious hides as a fun aspect for me. I do NOT think my way is the only way , I think we all need to find our comfort level re making hides but I do agree that a little finding experience is a good idea as you get to see the good, bad and ugly that way before you try placing hides. I also do think that if you have a LOT of finds and no hides, you really should consider the ethics of being only a user and not a giver. I really think if you can go out and find a lot, you can also go out and place at least some for others to find.

I, personally, am being responsible in my caching not hiding any at this point as I do not have the time to maintain caches in a timely fashion if a problem should arise.

 

People need to do what they feel comfortable with, not be guilted into doing something they can't maintain.

+1

Furthermore, hiding caches is not the only way to give back to the geocaching community.

[+dampan]

It's a game! Let everyone play and learn from the experience. I've found caches placed by "experienced" 'cachers' without regard to many of the GS guidelines.

[+A & J Tooling]

Here's an idea.... to place whatever kind of cache you want to, you have to 1st of found five of that kind. So, if you want to place a small with a 1.5/1.5 D/T, then you have to find 5 that fit that criteria.

 

That way, you know what is allowed and you see other ideas already used for that sort of thing. Plus, people would think twice before rating something as hard when it really isn't.

 

Just a thought.....

[+niraD]

Here's an idea.... to place whatever kind of cache you want to, you have to 1st of found five of that kind. So, if you want to place a small with a 1.5/1.5 D/T, then you have to find 5 that fit that criteria.

So before I can hide my regular-size 3.5/4.5 D/T multi-cache, I have to find 5 other regular-size 3.5/4.5 D/T multi-caches? Seriously?

 

I think it would be more useful for someone to find 5 caches that are all significantly different from each other than to find 5 caches that match the one they plan to hide in some way.

 

That way, you know what is allowed and you see other ideas already used for that sort of thing. Plus, people would think twice before rating something as hard when it really isn't.

How do you know those 5 caches are good examples of what is allowed? I think reading and understanding the guidelines would give them a much better understanding of what is allowed than finding any number of caches.

 

And I think this idea would make difficulty-terrain ratings less accurate, rather than more accurate. Even if I think the correct rating is 3.5/4.5, this system wouldn't allow me to rate my cache that way unless I had found 5 other caches with that same rare difficulty-terrain combination.

[+rav_bunneh]

I think having to wait three months is absolutely ridiculous. Why not encourage new members rather than making them feel unwelcome and treading on some elitist toes? I'm not even two month in to the sport and have 65 finds. What about people have been caching for months or years with someone who get their own account?

 

Besides, people learn from doing. As you get better you will always look back and realize you could have done things different or better.