Difficulty Due to Muggle Activity

[+J the Goat]

Whoopes, forgot that a B with a ) equals a

 

Was going to edit, but I thought my mistake was funny enough to highlight. I meant B )

[+sbell111]

Non-cachers (heathens) do not enter into my geocaching equation.

If you are dumb enough to put a cache where others might see me retrieving it, that is your problem.

 

That seems like a very callous reaction to a valid problem. If I remember correctly, GeoCaching is partially about hiding things from public view and perception in order for others to stealthily claim them. Now if you wander up to a bench with a geocache (g.c.) that has three muggles sitting on it and go "excuse me, but I'd like to reach under you to grab a clandestinely hidden contact case that contains a small sheet of paper and nothing else" then that doesn't seem too stealthily.

 

Sometimes that might be the best approach when trying to grab a cache. Although I think some people enjoy the stealth aspect, the act of finding a hidden container that the general public doesn't know about, some geocachers seem to want to hide the activity of geocaching from the general public as well. The "always try to be stealthy" approach is only effective if you're always successful in being stealthy.

Of course, the 'who cares if it gets muggled?' approach is only effective if your goal is to get the cache muggled.

[+sbell111]

What I have noticed on numerous caches by playgrounds, where you feel like a peeping tom,

If you feel guilty doing something, you have to ask yourself if you should be doing that thing.

 

 

or where there are muggle problems at the cache location, is there is almost always a nearby location where a cache could easily be hidden without any issue searching for it. I just do not understand why cache hiders place caches where you have to worry about someone calling the cops on you or if you get it others will see you and muggle the cache instead of choosing a nearby spot where the cache could be searched for with no issues.

I have to wonder why cachers would ever continue searching for a cache if they felt uncomfortable doing so or if they would be risking the cache by continuing the search. The best response to these kinds of issues is to either come back at a different time or to put the cache on your ignore list.

[+sbell111]

Non-cachers (heathens) do not enter into my geocaching equation.

If you are dumb enough to put a cache where others might see me retrieving it, that is your problem.

 

That seems like a very callous reaction to a valid problem. If I remember correctly, GeoCaching is partially about hiding things from public view and perception in order for others to stealthily claim them. Now if you wander up to a bench with a geocache (g.c.) that has three muggles sitting on it and go "excuse me, but I'd like to reach under you to grab a clandestinely hidden contact case that contains a small sheet of paper and nothing else" then that doesn't seem too stealthily. To that point, the muggles or others around them may go up to the cache and palm it without replacing it, thereby denying others the chance to find it while the owner has to go out and replace it. All this due to you not giving a &%#@ because you don't want to be sneaky.

 

This seems to be a problematic mindset among some geocachers. They feel that being sneaky doesn't matter as long as they find the g.c. and sign the log. What. The. Hell. I was driving to work the other day and saw a couple unabashedly lift up a lightpole skirt to grab a cache that was surrounded by muggles just leaving a restaurant. As the couple left all seven of the muggles walked over to get the cache, look at it, then throw it away like trash! All due to someone not being stealthy. I even looked at the people wh ohad done this on that cache's log later that evening and noticed a habit of them making a point about the people watching them find the cache's. No wonder so many get muggled (well that and bad hides/rehides).

 

On topic now, I believe that upping the difficulty on a cache is the wrong way to go about marking muggle activity. Maybe marking the cache with an upmarked terrain would be acceptable. The terrain should not only take into consideration of the phsyical landmarks byt the area it is in as well.

 

Also, please try and be stealthy when getting a cache.

 

My bolding. I disagree. For some it might be, but this is not at all what geocaching is about for me or those I cache with. If you don't put any effort into a creative urban hide, I feel no obligation to: A) hunt for your cache, or if I do hunt for your cache, to be careful about retrieving or putting it back "stealthily". If you don't care about your cache, neither do I.

 

Muggles shouldn't effect the D rating. Like others have said, come back later. Then the cache will be as difficult as it's rated (maybe )

If you don't like caches of a particular style, put them on your ignore list. Don't risk ruining the game for others just because you don't like those caches.

[+myotis]

What I have noticed on numerous caches by playgrounds, where you feel like a peeping tom,

If you feel guilty doing something, you have to ask yourself if you should be doing that thing.

 

 

or where there are muggle problems at the cache location, is there is almost always a nearby location where a cache could easily be hidden without any issue searching for it. I just do not understand why cache hiders place caches where you have to worry about someone calling the cops on you or if you get it others will see you and muggle the cache instead of choosing a nearby spot where the cache could be searched for with no issues.

I have to wonder why cachers would ever continue searching for a cache if they felt uncomfortable doing so or if they would be risking the cache by continuing the search. The best response to these kinds of issues is to either come back at a different time or to put the cache on your ignore list.

 

You are not answering the question. I pass on caches all the time. Yesterday I headed for a cache in the heart of a University Campus to avoid muggles. There were muggles within 2 feet of the cache (which I could see) so I rode my bike on the campus and checked out the sculptures hoping they would leave. I gave up after 1/2 hour. I left a note they should make it into a multi to avoid the muggles and will likely come back to the cache. It was hidden on a tree sign. But the cache placer could have done what he did on another campus tree sign, made it a multi. You got info from the sign and then found the cache in a more remote area. My most recent encounters with playground caches I left but was not happy I wasted time and gas to travel to the cache. The first was hidden in a bush about 10 feet from a playground. The other was in a park that about 15 house had a clear view of. My GPS was pointing to a playground toy. I will not return to either of these. For both of these caches there were nearby spots where a cache could be easily hidden where you could search without worrying about someone calling the cops. The issue is why would someone hide a cache in places like these instead of showing respect for the cache hunters by taking the time to find a place where you can search without worrying about someone calling the cops on you?

[+sbell111]

What I have noticed on numerous caches by playgrounds, where you feel like a peeping tom,

If you feel guilty doing something, you have to ask yourself if you should be doing that thing.

 

 

or where there are muggle problems at the cache location, is there is almost always a nearby location where a cache could easily be hidden without any issue searching for it. I just do not understand why cache hiders place caches where you have to worry about someone calling the cops on you or if you get it others will see you and muggle the cache instead of choosing a nearby spot where the cache could be searched for with no issues.

I have to wonder why cachers would ever continue searching for a cache if they felt uncomfortable doing so or if they would be risking the cache by continuing the search. The best response to these kinds of issues is to either come back at a different time or to put the cache on your ignore list.

 

You are not answering the question. I pass on caches all the time. Yesterday I headed for a cache in the heart of a University Campus to avoid muggles. There were muggles within 2 feet of the cache (which I could see) so I rode my bike on the campus and checked out the sculptures hoping they would leave. I gave up after 1/2 hour. I left a note they should make it into a multi to avoid the muggles and will likely come back to the cache. It was hidden on a tree sign. But the cache placer could have done what he did on another campus tree sign, made it a multi. You got info from the sign and then found the cache in a more remote area. My most recent encounters with playground caches I left but was not happy I wasted time and gas to travel to the cache. The first was hidden in a bush about 10 feet from a playground. The other was in a park that about 15 house had a clear view of. My GPS was pointing to a playground toy. I will not return to either of these. For both of these caches there were nearby spots where a cache could be easily hidden where you could search without worrying about someone calling the cops. The issue is why would someone hide a cache in places like these instead of showing respect for the cache hunters by taking the time to find a place where you can search without worrying about someone calling the cops on you?

Each individual cache owner gets to design his cache the way he wants to, as long as it meets teh guidelines. You don't get a vote. For instance, if a cache owner wants to hide a micro on a sign instead of the multi that you would prefer, he is free to do so. If you don't wish to find his cache, you are free to put it on your ignore list.

[+myotis]

sbell111 you are still not answering the question of "why"? Just because you can, does not mean it is a good idea. Cache searchers are also allowed to search for caches when muggles will see them and likely result in the cache getting muggled. Cachers are also allowed to not hide the cache as good as they found it even if it assures it will get muggled. Just because they can do this, it does not follow that they should. It seems to me if the cahce hiders would take the time to find a good spot for the cache, most of these problems would be avoided. If a cache hider does not take the time to find a good spot, then why should a cache seeker feel obligated to not expose the cache to muggles?

[+sbell111]

sbell111 you are still not answering the question of "why"? Just because you can, does not mean it is a good idea. Cache searchers are also allowed to search for caches when muggles will see them and likely result in the cache getting muggled. Cachers are also allowed to not hide the cache as good as they found it even if it assures it will get muggled. Just because they can do this, it does not follow that they should. It seems to me if the cahce hiders would take the time to find a good spot for the cache, most of these problems would be avoided. If a cache hider does not take the time to find a good spot, then why should a cache seeker feel obligated to not expose the cache to muggles?

Just because you don't like a cache doesn't mean that everyone doesn't. Just because I am not impressed with your cache doesn't mean that I should take steps to have it destroyed.

[+myotis]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

[+dirt_empire]

I did end up going back after work to retrieve the cache. It was a lovely little magnetic contact case that (thankfully) got stuck just below the rim on the inside of the can. The cache is back in place and thouroughly sterilized.

[+sbell111]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

Edited April 19, 2011 by sbell111

[+bflentje]

If you are dumb enough to put a cache where others might see me retrieving it, that is your problem.

THIS

 

Ditto. And I am not a micro-hater.

[+J the Goat]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

 

But it goes both ways. Hides in areas that there shouldn't be hides, like on playground equipment, can ruin the game for other people as well. Yes, I can ignore caches, and I frequently do. People could also take the extra few minutes to find a place that isn't inappropriate but still close enough to where they want to put a cache. I stand by my statement earlier. If you don't care enough about your cache to spend any time placing it, I dont have to care enough about it to spend any time retrieving or replacing it. What's good for the goose....

[+sbell111]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

 

But it goes both ways. Hides in areas that there shouldn't be hides, like on playground equipment, can ruin the game for other people as well. Yes, I can ignore caches, and I frequently do. People could also take the extra few minutes to find a place that isn't inappropriate but still close enough to where they want to put a cache. I stand by my statement earlier. If you don't care enough about your cache to spend any time placing it, I dont have to care enough about it to spend any time retrieving or replacing it. What's good for the goose....

No problem. If you don't want to spend time retrieving or replacing a cache, you don't have to. Plop the thing on your ignore list and move on with your life. That way the gander isn't interfering with the next cache seekers game in their attempt to make some kind of personal statement against the cache owner's hiding practices.

[+A & J Tooling]

Kinda' like watching your grandparents fight.

[+roziecakes]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

 

You would probably have to ask the individual person that hid it that way. Just because you wouldn't hide something somewhere and don't understand why someone would doesn't mean that another person would avoid that place.

 

There's a local cache in our area that I personally find to be in a sketchy place, but several other folks have found it, and love it; and I think it has like 10 favorites or something like that. So, I don't like it; but does that mean that I question the motives of the person hiding it, or want to get it archived? of course not. Obviously they knew that some people would love to find it, and people do.

[+roziecakes]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

 

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

[+Team Dromomania]

I enjoy my hikes to caches in the woods or up in the mountains. But I still go for park and grab, parking lot, or such hides. And, when I do, I tend to ignore the muggles and they tend to ignore me. When they don't ignore me then I have a chance to introduce new people to caching. I've had adults, kids and cops help me try and locate hides after asking what I'm up to. I know that one and perhaps two of those became cachers.

 

Example of cache I passed up: How about a shopping center parking lot with the dividers between parking lanes filled with river stones? One of those hundreds of stones have a nano. Should I hunt during the day with all the muggles or should I hunt after hours and stick out like a sore thumb for security or security cameras? It's not my cup of tea to remove a ton of rocks to find one so I went on my way. Others, I'm sure, had lots of fun with this hunt. Give me that 8 miles hike though bear and mountain lion county to a cliff to dig into rattlesnake infested rocks for a hide and then I'll be having lots of fun with my hunt!

[+popokiiti]

Muggles make me think quickly - I once pretended the cache container held a snack and that my mouth was full when I grunted a reply to their greeting. Muggles come and go, the difficulty in finding remains the same.

[+TeamSeekAndWeShallFind]

Increasing the difficulty level of a cache because of potential muggle activity ? I say "potential," because the muggle activity isn't always going to be the same. If you hunt a LPC in the middle of a shopping mall on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon you're going to CREATE A SERIOUS CHALLENGE FOR YOURSELF. If you hunt the same LPC at midnight, NO CHALLENGE. It's up to you when you hunt. If you hunt shopping mall LPC's on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, you deserve the challenge you're faced with.

 

Increasing the D level on a LPC because of muggles makes me laugh and think of this CO in our area who increased the T level on his cache from a 1.5 to a 2.5 BECAUSE OF THE EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF GOOSE POOP IN THE GRASS AROUND GZ !

 

but now that I'm thinking about it, this same member logged a find on a SUPER CHALLENGING CACHE that he saw from 240' away. He couldn't and didn't actually ever reach the cache or sign the physical log but he said he was going to "take the point anyway," because he deserved it. You see, he "had to go home and do a wash," after attempting to find a way to the cache.

 

Edit: That comment above about pretending the cache container held a snack is one of the funniest things I've ever read !!!

Edited April 20, 2011 by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

[+myotis]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

 

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

 

Why would someone place a cache in a place like a bush next to a playground seems like a pretty simple quesiton. Answering something else over and over again is obfuscation! Hey if there is not a good answer, you don't have to create a stawman to answer. You could always say, "I do not know." Likewise, it does not take a rocket scientist to know you can use the ignore list and others don't have to hide them the way you like. But that does not mean that if someone takes the time and gas to go to your cache and finds you did not take the time to hide the cache where it can be logged without letting muggles know where it is, they have any obligation to not expose the cache to muggles.

[+sbell111]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

Why would someone place a cache in a place like a bush next to a playground seems like a pretty simple quesiton. Answering something else over and over again is obfuscation! Hey if there is not a good answer, you don't have to create a stawman to answer. You could always say, "I do not know."

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

 

BTW, I thought you weren't going to ask again? (see bolded bit, above.)

Likewise, it does not take a rocket scientist to know you can use the ignore list and others don't have to hide them the way you like. But that does not mean that if someone takes the time and gas to go to your cache and finds you did not take the time to hide the cache where it can be logged without letting muggles know where it is, they have any obligation to not expose the cache to muggles.

Every time that I go looking for a cache, I know that it might not end up in a 'find'. Any number of things migt happen that result in my not being able to log it. Too many muggles in the area at that moment is but one of them.

 

Just because something happens that keeps me from logging a cache right then doesn't mean that I should ruin the cache for the next guy.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

[+sbell111]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

[+sbell111]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

I've found a number of cracker barrel front porch caches without being spotted by nearby muggles. If I could not do so, I would still have choices. I could come back before they got busy (or while they were closed) or I could pop that cache onto my ignore list. Edited April 21, 2011 by sbell111

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

I've found a number of cracker barrel front porch caches without being spotted by nearby muggles. If I could not do so, I would still have choices. I could come back before they got busy (or while they were closed) or I could pop that cache onto my ignore list.

And that cache was hidden in a way you could find and retrieve it without being spotted, which is my point.

[+nittanycopa]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

 

Sure there is.

 

It's called "find it when the restaurant isn't open"

 

Ba dum ching!

[+myotis]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

Why would someone place a cache in a place like a bush next to a playground seems like a pretty simple quesiton. Answering something else over and over again is obfuscation! Hey if there is not a good answer, you don't have to create a stawman to answer. You could always say, "I do not know."

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

 

BTW, I thought you weren't going to ask again? (see bolded bit, above.)

Likewise, it does not take a rocket scientist to know you can use the ignore list and others don't have to hide them the way you like. But that does not mean that if someone takes the time and gas to go to your cache and finds you did not take the time to hide the cache where it can be logged without letting muggles know where it is, they have any obligation to not expose the cache to muggles.

Every time that I go looking for a cache, I know that it might not end up in a 'find'. Any number of things migt happen that result in my not being able to log it. Too many muggles in the area at that moment is but one of them.

 

Just because something happens that keeps me from logging a cache right then doesn't mean that I should ruin the cache for the next guy.

 

You still have not addressed "why" and are stating the obvious instead of addressing the issue. Of course anyone knows you cannot expect a find every time you go to a cache. If that was the case there would not be a DNF log. It seems to me the real issue is what a cache searcher should be able to reasonably expect when they search for a cache. IMHO, when you go search for a cache you should be able to reasonably expect that the cache hider: 1) Placed the cache in a legal location and obtained proper permision, 2) it is a reasonably safe (i.e., you are not likely to be a crime victim and you can search the area safely without risk of injury), and 3) you can reasonably retrieve the cache without worrying about the cops being called on you and not exposing the location to muggles. I also hope (but nowadays do not expect) the hider took the time to find an interesting location or hid the cache in a creative way.

 

You may thnk it is fun to go to waste time and gas to go to a spot to discover the cache hider did not take the time to place the cache in a spot where it can be reasonably signed without exposing it to muggles. But I think most cachers do not enjoy being tricked into wasting thier time and gas. You look at exposing a poorly placed cache to muggles as ruining the cache for the next cacher. One could also look at it as speeding up the process of the cache disappearing so others are not tricked into wasting time and gas coming to the cache. When you run across a cache like this, there is no rule that says you have to hide it as good as you found it. One could argue leaving it out in the open instead of putting it back where it was, would be the best thing-the faster it gets muggled, the sooner caachers won't be tricked into wasting time and gas.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

 

Sure there is.

 

It's called "find it when the restaurant isn't open"

 

Ba dum ching!

 

Some restaurants are always open.

[+nittanycopa]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

Why would someone place a cache in a place like a bush next to a playground seems like a pretty simple quesiton. Answering something else over and over again is obfuscation! Hey if there is not a good answer, you don't have to create a stawman to answer. You could always say, "I do not know."

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

 

BTW, I thought you weren't going to ask again? (see bolded bit, above.)

Likewise, it does not take a rocket scientist to know you can use the ignore list and others don't have to hide them the way you like. But that does not mean that if someone takes the time and gas to go to your cache and finds you did not take the time to hide the cache where it can be logged without letting muggles know where it is, they have any obligation to not expose the cache to muggles.

Every time that I go looking for a cache, I know that it might not end up in a 'find'. Any number of things migt happen that result in my not being able to log it. Too many muggles in the area at that moment is but one of them.

 

Just because something happens that keeps me from logging a cache right then doesn't mean that I should ruin the cache for the next guy.

 

You still have not addressed "why" and are stating the obvious instead of addressing the issue. Of course anyone knows you cannot expect a find every time you go to a cache. If that was the case there would not be a DNF log. It seems to me the real issue is what a cache searcher should be able to reasonably expect when they search for a cache. IMHO, when you go search for a cache you should be able to reasonably expect that the cache hider: 1) Placed the cache in a legal location and obtained proper permision, 2) it is a reasonably safe (i.e., you are not likely to be a crime victim and you can search the area safely without risk of injury), and 3) you can reasonably retrieve the cache without worrying about the cops being called on you and not exposing the location to muggles. I also hope (but nowadays do not expect) the hider took the time to find an interesting location or hid the cache in a creative way.

 

You may thnk it is fun to go to waste time and gas to go to a spot to discover the cache hider did not take the time to place the cache in a spot where it can be reasonably signed without exposing it to muggles. But I think most cachers do not enjoy being tricked into wasting thier time and gas. You look at exposing a poorly placed cache to muggles as ruining the cache for the next cacher. One could also look at it as speeding up the process of the cache disappearing so others are not tricked into wasting time and gas coming to the cache. When you run across a cache like this, there is no rule that says you have to hide it as good as you found it. One could argue leaving it out in the open instead of putting it back where it was, would be the best thing-the faster it gets muggled, the sooner caachers won't be tricked into wasting time and gas.

 

Have you ever considered the cache could be in a place that is easily within view, but the cache itself is extremely hard to find (i.e. blends in well with its surroundings)?

 

So here's my explanation to you - I think these hides are fun to find. I could probably name off 15 examples from my finds list but then I'd be wasting my time because no one will be able to convince you that there's anything "fun" behind these hides.

 

And re-hiding poorly because you don't like the cache? If you have so many problems with the cache, then take it up with the person that hid it instead of ruining it for everyone else.

 

So you found some caches you didn't like. I've been pretty disappointed with some of the ever-praised ammo cans in the woods. Does that mean I should throw a temper tantrum and re-hide them poorly so they're exposed?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Have you ever considered the cache could be in a place that is easily within view, but the cache itself is extremely hard to find (i.e. blends in well with its surroundings)?

Those are the fun ones. Geocachers will spot them when muggles won't, so they don't get muggled unless geocachers are careless. The trick for geocachers is to retrieve/replace with stealth. Too many cache hiders think stealth has to do with finding a needle in a haystack cache in full view of muggles without being seen.

[+myotis]

Have you ever considered the cache could be in a place that is easily within view, but the cache itself is extremely hard to find (i.e. blends in well with its surroundings)?

 

So here's my explanation to you - I think these hides are fun to find. I could probably name off 15 examples from my finds list but then I'd be wasting my time because no one will be able to convince you that there's anything "fun" behind these hides.

 

And re-hiding poorly because you don't like the cache? If you have so many problems with the cache, then take it up with the person that hid it instead of ruining it for everyone else.

 

So you found some caches you didn't like. I've been pretty disappointed with some of the ever-praised ammo cans in the woods. Does that mean I should throw a temper tantrum and re-hide them poorly so they're exposed?

 

Sure I have-that's not the issue. And if you are going to cite examples of caches that are not representative of the issue being raised, then yes you are wasting your time. There is a big difference between searching for a well hidden cache on playground equipment and searching for a well hidden cache in a place where you can search for it without worring about the cops being called on you and when you can search for and retrieve it without exposing its location to muggles. The question I have asked and never got an answer for is why would someone do something like hide a cache in a bush next to playground equipment when there is a nearby location a cache could be hidden where you could search for and retrive it without alarming parents. I've read hundreds of logs of cachers saying they do not like this and it is not fun. (Yea I know, you can pass it by, but I (and I suspect most cachers) do not enjoy wasting time and gas going to a cache like this. I will agree if someone sped up the process of getting a cache like that muggled, it would ruin the fun of some. But your claim that it would ruin it for "everyone else" ignores the reality that lots (I bet most) cachers would be happy to see a cache on playground equirpment get muggled so they don't get tricked into wasting time and gas only to find the cache is on playground equipment.

 

I did not advoacte people making it easier for muggles to find-its what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If one can argue you don't have to take the time to hide the cache in a good location, then cachers don't have to take the time to keep the location from muggles. And what if somone has fun exposing caches to muggles? If the only thing that matters is haivng fun, then who are you to interfer with thier fun? I think it is a shared responsibility: cache hiders have a responsibility to seekers of finding a good location and seekers have a responsibility to hunt it responsibily.

[+niraD]

You still have not addressed "why" and are stating the obvious instead of addressing the issue.

Maybe you missed it:

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to.

Or if you prefer:

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

People will hide caches for reasons you disagree with. People will even cast favorites votes for reasons you disagree with.

 

When you run across a cache like this, there is no rule that says you have to hide it as good as you found it.

Actually, there is: "7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location." Or if you prefer: "4. Make sure to seal the cache and place it back exactly where and how you found it. If it had some rocks covering it, please replace those."

[+myotis]

You still have not addressed "why" and are stating the obvious instead of addressing the issue.

Maybe you missed it:

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to.

Or if you prefer:

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

People will hide caches for reasons you disagree with. People will even cast favorites votes for reasons you disagree with.

 

When you run across a cache like this, there is no rule that says you have to hide it as good as you found it.

Actually, there is: "7. Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location." Or if you prefer: "4. Make sure to seal the cache and place it back exactly where and how you found it. If it had some rocks covering it, please replace those."

 

Because I can does not answer why.

 

Those are not rules and are totally meaningless. You have to sign the log? No way, you do not even have to find the cache to log a find. Look at MOGA where you can log 100 finds on caches you are not physically able to do in exchange for "volunteering." So sorry, while I think cachers should do these things, they are not required to. But in order to publish a cache you are required to check that you have read and understnad the following:

 

1.2. Other Placement Considerations

This page is an extension of our Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines.

 

Select an appropriate location and container. Think about how your container and the actions of geocachers seeking it will be perceived by the public. Although your geocache will be hidden with landowner permission, concerned passersby who are unaware of geocaching may view people searching the property as suspicious. For example, a geocacher will likely be wrongly suspected of being malicious if a cache is hidden in full view of an office or apartment windows.

 

While these are obvioulsy not enforced, unlike what you quote, you have to check off that you have read it and understand it. The issue that has been raised in this thread is the failure to select an appropraite location. If the hider does not take this responsibility seriously, why should seekers feel an obligation to seek the cache responsibility.

[+niraD]

Because I can does not answer why.

If you want more of an answer than "Because the CO wanted to" or "Because the CO thought it was a good cache location" then you'll need to ask the CO in question. But let's take the example of playground hides: It is true that some middle-aged men may not be comfortable searching for caches in/near playgrounds. However, it is also true that there are other geocachers who are perfectly comfortable in/near playgrounds, and who are perfectly comfortable searching for geocaches in/near playgrounds.

 

Some of my favorite caches have been hidden in locations that make some geocachers uncomfortable. Should their discomfort with the location mean that caches should never be hidden there? Should geocaches be banned in any location that might make anyone uncomfortable?

 

But in order to publish a cache you are required to check that you have read and understnad the following:

 

1.2. Other Placement Considerations

This page is an extension of our Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines.

 

Select an appropriate location and container. Think about how your container and the actions of geocachers seeking it will be perceived by the public. Although your geocache will be hidden with landowner permission, concerned passersby who are unaware of geocaching may view people searching the property as suspicious. For example, a geocacher will likely be wrongly suspected of being malicious if a cache is hidden in full view of an office or apartment windows.

 

While these are obvioulsy not enforced, unlike what you quote, you have to check off that you have read it and understand it.

If you're going to get picky, then I'll point out that all the quoted guideline requires is that the CO "think about" the issues raised. If the CO thinks about these issues and still thinks it's an appropriate location and container, then there is nothing to enforce, even if others may disagree with the CO.

[+myotis]

I think there are lots of cache hiders who do not “think about” these issues when they hide a cache. For example, I do not see how someone could think about these issues and RATIONALLY conclude its fine to hide a cache in a bush next to a playground or on playground equipment instead of finding a better nearby spot. You are right, there are some cachers who don’t mind searching a bush next to a kid playing on playground equipment. But I think it is safe to say they are the minority. There are also some who would get their jollies out of watching kids play on a swing while they are in the bush-I for one don’t want to give child molesters an excuses to go into a bush by a playground. Then there is the parents. What percent of parents do you think would not have an issue with someone in a bush next to their child playing on a slide? What about the cops? Do you think they would mind a parent having to call them after seeing someone in a bush by a playground?

 

If there was a way to flag and filter out these kinds of caches, it would not be so bad. Of course you can pass the cache by. But I do not like being tricked into wasting my time and gas only to find the cache is in a playground.

 

I disagree with your framing this as “being uncomfortable.” I would say if you can be mistaken as a child molester or a peeping tom when searching for a cache, they should be banned. If someone took the guidelines seriously, they would not hide one in a place like this.

[+CacheFreakTim]

Rating shouldn't be effected but I recommend putting a note in the description stating it is a high muggle area. It would also be a good idea to use the "stealth" tag so people can look for/avoid them in the pocket queries.

[+niraD]

For example, I do not see how someone could think about these issues and RATIONALLY conclude its fine to hide a cache in a bush next to a playground or on playground equipment instead of finding a better nearby spot.

Maybe it's the CO's favorite playground, and they want to share it with other geocaching kids. Maybe it's the CO's favorite playground, and they want to share it with other geocaching parents.

 

I disagree with your framing this as “being uncomfortable.” I would say if you can be mistaken as a child molester or a peeping tom when searching for a cache, they should be banned.

I don't think your "if you can be mistaken as a child molester" standard would allow caches to be placed anywhere. There was a recent thread here about a father being mistaken for a child molester because he and his daughter were geocaching along a hiking trail. So... no more caches along hiking trails either.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

 

Sure there is.

 

It's called "find it when the restaurant isn't open"

 

Ba dum ching!

 

A couple of years ago I came across a cache that GZ seemed to be about 5 feet from a restaurant window with a table just on the other side. I had no way of knowing that the cache was so close to the restaurant as I was unfamiliar with the area and coming back when the restaurant was closed wasn't really feasible as the location was about 2200 miles from where I live.

[+sbell111]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

I've found a number of cracker barrel front porch caches without being spotted by nearby muggles. If I could not do so, I would still have choices. I could come back before they got busy (or while they were closed) or I could pop that cache onto my ignore list.

And that cache was hidden in a way you could find and retrieve it without being spotted, which is my point.

It was no more 'hidden in a way that I wouldn't be spotted' than any other urban cache is. A careful attempt made with an awareness of what I was showing others allowed the find.

[+sbell111]

OK-I won't ask you again

 

But I am really curious as to why cache hiders do this.

I'll answer you one more time.

 

Cache hiders hide their caches as they wish to. They do not need to get your approval prior to hiding a cache. If you do not like their caches, you are free to put them on your ignore list. That's actually why there is an ignore list. You are not required to find every cache and you are not showing your best when you ruin the game for other people.

A-yep! The ignore list is there for a reason. You don't need to find every cache, and every cache does not need to be placed just the way you like it. The beautiful thing about this hobby is there are tons of options. There is something for everyone!

Why would someone place a cache in a place like a bush next to a playground seems like a pretty simple quesiton. Answering something else over and over again is obfuscation! Hey if there is not a good answer, you don't have to create a stawman to answer. You could always say, "I do not know."

The answer is still the same. They hid it there because they wanted to and because they felt that it was a good place.

 

BTW, I thought you weren't going to ask again? (see bolded bit, above.)

Likewise, it does not take a rocket scientist to know you can use the ignore list and others don't have to hide them the way you like. But that does not mean that if someone takes the time and gas to go to your cache and finds you did not take the time to hide the cache where it can be logged without letting muggles know where it is, they have any obligation to not expose the cache to muggles.

Every time that I go looking for a cache, I know that it might not end up in a 'find'. Any number of things migt happen that result in my not being able to log it. Too many muggles in the area at that moment is but one of them.

 

Just because something happens that keeps me from logging a cache right then doesn't mean that I should ruin the cache for the next guy.

 

You still have not addressed "why" and are stating the obvious instead of addressing the issue. Of course anyone knows you cannot expect a find every time you go to a cache. If that was the case there would not be a DNF log. It seems to me the real issue is what a cache searcher should be able to reasonably expect when they search for a cache. IMHO, when you go search for a cache you should be able to reasonably expect that the cache hider: 1) Placed the cache in a legal location and obtained proper permision, 2) it is a reasonably safe (i.e., you are not likely to be a crime victim and you can search the area safely without risk of injury), and 3) you can reasonably retrieve the cache without worrying about the cops being called on you and not exposing the location to muggles. I also hope (but nowadays do not expect) the hider took the time to find an interesting location or hid the cache in a creative way.

Your third expectation is not what I would call 'reasonable'. It is rather an attempt to shift your responsibility of safeguarding the game piece onto others, in my opinion.

 

 

You may thnk it is fun to go to waste time and gas to go to a spot to discover the cache hider did not take the time to place the cache in a spot where it can be reasonably signed without exposing it to muggles. But I think most cachers do not enjoy being tricked into wasting thier time and gas. You look at exposing a poorly placed cache to muggles as ruining the cache for the next cacher. One could also look at it as speeding up the process of the cache disappearing so others are not tricked into wasting time and gas coming to the cache. When you run across a cache like this, there is no rule that says you have to hide it as good as you found it. One could argue leaving it out in the open instead of putting it back where it was, would be the best thing-the faster it gets muggled, the sooner caachers won't be tricked into wasting time and gas.

Two thoughts:

• No one is being 'tricked'. Each of knows that it is our responsibility to attempt to safeguerd the game pieces to keep from ruining the game for those that come next. It is unreasonable to expect to never have to practice muggle avoidance measures which may include passing up a find on a cache until another trip. The increased price of gas doesn't change this reality.
  
• I hope that other players in your area show more respect for your caches than you show for theirs. Of course, that small petty part of me secretly wishes otherwise.
  

[+sbell111]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

Sure there is.

 

It's called "find it when the restaurant isn't open"

 

Ba dum ching!

Some restaurants are always open.

But not always busy.

[+sbell111]

I disagree. The point of geocaching is to hide a container for others to find. If you hide it in such a way that finders can't get it without being seen, your cache isn't going to last long, so what's the point in hiding it in the first place?

Using that logic, only caches that are deep in the woods should be hidden. Of course, it ignores the simple fact that many cachers enjoy caches that are in populated areas. I feel that those cachers who prefer caches that are only hidden in muggle-free areas can easily identify these and don't need to ruin other cachers for people that enjoy them.

Not at all. There is no way to hide from muggles when retrieving an LPC right in front of a restaurant window. An LPC at the far end of the parking lot is a different story. If you still want to hide a cache in front of that window, place one that geocachers would be able to spot and retrieve unnoticed, but muggles would pay no attention to.

 

Sure there is.

 

It's called "find it when the restaurant isn't open"

 

Ba dum ching!

 

A couple of years ago I came across a cache that GZ seemed to be about 5 feet from a restaurant window with a table just on the other side. I had no way of knowing that the cache was so close to the restaurant as I was unfamiliar with the area and coming back when the restaurant was closed wasn't really feasible as the location was about 2200 miles from where I live.

We've all come across caches like that.

 

Dozens of times, I have rolled up on a cache location only to discover that it was too muggly to make the find. I simply passed those by. Local ones were left for another day. I likely will never return to the non-local ones. If I hated these kinds of caches, I'd have tossed them on my ignore list, but I don't, so I didn't.

 

I have long since come to the realization that every cache hunt will not result in a cache find. I also have learned that I take pleasure out of the time that I spend caching, not the number of finds that I get out of it. Therefore, a cache that I don't log as a find does not waste my time. Further, teh amount of gas that I use caching is not dependant on the number of caches that I find, so I don't feel that a non-find is wasting my gas. After all, if I didn't go to that unavailable cache, I would have used the gas going after some other cache. The same amount of time and gas is spent regardless of whether I log the muggly cache.

[+A & J Tooling]

...I have long since come to the realization that every cache hunt will not result in a cache find. I also have learned that I take pleasure out of the time that I spend caching, not the number of finds that I get out of it...

 

So true.

[+RoadRoach58]

For example, I do not see how someone could think about these issues and RATIONALLY conclude its fine to hide a cache in a bush next to a playground or on playground equipment instead of finding a better nearby spot.

Maybe it's the CO's favorite playground, and they want to share it with other geocaching kids. Maybe it's the CO's favorite playground, and they want to share it with other geocaching parents.

 

I disagree with your framing this as "being uncomfortable." I would say if you can be mistaken as a child molester or a peeping tom when searching for a cache, they should be banned.

I don't think your "if you can be mistaken as a child molester" standard would allow caches to be placed anywhere. There was a recent thread here about a father being mistaken for a child molester because he and his daughter were geocaching along a hiking trail. So... no more caches along hiking trails either.

 

Basically, all we have established is that most humans are quite stubborn about their opinions.

 

Playgrounds, ball parks, most any situation that puts you in sight of parents that are watching their kids (as responsible parents should) is endangering the searcher of being accosted by either an angry parent, if not police. Hopefully it will be the police, because some parents may just pull a .38 out of their purse or jacket and end the potential pedophile problem immediately. Did the CO put me in that danger? Hmmm, not physically, no, I CHOSE to be there is his defense. However, he hid a cache in a place where I could be mistaken for a child molester, though. With such a hide, perhpaps a scanned permission slip from local officials and attached to the gallery of the cache page, and a sign posted in the park that the people looking in the bushes are no threat to litle Suzy are in order. Please note my avatar, and you will see I'm not the best looking of men. I'm tall, thin, and tend to let my hair get a little long. But, I am a father to three, step-father to three, and grandfather to three, and I would probably be the one to pull the .38 out if I didn't know about this game. Now, that said, suppose I do approach the individual thinking he is geocaching because I know about the cache, when he's actually an armed child molester? Again, because of that cache, hidden in a place where children play, SOMEONE gets hurt. THIS is EXACTLY why caches are banned from elementary, intermediate, middle and high school grounds. Caches placed near places frequented by mostly children are just bad news. I know of one in a pavilion right next to a kiddie playground in a local park. The park closes at sunset, and opens at 9 am. How do I hunt this without alarming other parents? I bring my own muggles so that if I am approached, it's a lot easier to explain. Our local constabulary is very vigilant in their efforts to keep our fair town one of the top 100 places to live in the US. That's why I LIKE living here. They also know about geocaching because one of them is one of the most evil hiders we have, and more than once, my wife and I have had them called on us as we were out for some late night caching, or they simply saw our car and checked on why it was there.

 

Muggle factor does NOT make the cache more difficult. It only puts the searcher in a potentially dangerous, and CERTAINLY embarrassing situation, and can turn them against the game entirely. Basically, the cardinal rule is to not endanger anyone our yourself, either as a hider or a searcher. If you put something out there for me to find, in a place that will get me shot at, you have just endangered me. Does this same logic apply to one that requires rappelling off a cliff? NO. That's a terrain issue, and can certainly be achieved safely by using appropriate equipment. As a rule, I will simply not hunt "High Risk" urban hides by myself. I want at least one other person with me, if not more, and then, my fear factor goes down exponentially, and I tend to care less about exposing the cache. The CO put it in a place where I needed an army to prevent me from being shot at or have suspicion cast upon me, so I'm "playing as I see fit" bringing a large group with me to find the cache. There's a group of us there, and if we're approached, we explain the game and hopefully introduce new players to the fun. SO much easier for everyone involved. THEN, if someone calls the cops, we as a group pull out our various hunting tools (GPSr's, swag bags, etc) and explain it to the cops if they don't know. No reason for anyone to get handcuffed while the story's being checked out if you have an 8 year old climbing in the bushes because he's better able to do it.