Geocaching.com should create a leader board

September 2, 2003

First, I think if you make a public leader board, it will turn caching into a competition. Maybe just for bragging rites, but a competition none-the-less. As it is now, I go out and it's me against my wits, experience, know how, the terrain, etc. Not me against you or him to see who climbs to the top of the list. Hypothetically, lets say the leaderboard posts the top 100 in the state. I have 41 caches. I am number 101. I know that number 100 has two bogus cache finds, but claims 43 finds. Do I A. Run out and find 3 more caches quickly? B. Log 3 bogus finds figuring I can do them over the coming weekend? (Besides someone has already done that to get into the top 100) C. Write lengthly e-mails to "TPTB" for a remedy. D. Give up and forget it. Everyone knows it will be "C", a gripe-fest first then B as an alternative. To keep the playing field level, somebody will have to police it, and make unpopular decisions, especially about questionable find claims. This will ultimately lead to disgruntled parties. It doesn't take much imagination to realize what those folks could do to a hobby that relies on trust as much as this one does. I think if "TPTB" want to provide data to a third party, and let someone else have the hassles then go for it. Right now, if I run into a cacher in the woods it's a friendly affair. If he or she and I were competing for that number 100 spot (or higher), do you think it would remain a frienly family oriented pastime? Also, think about this..... If I'm in one of the top spots and I want to slow down the competition, what better way than to just take a few caches along out of the woods when I leave? Now there's a plus for the hobby!! (Notice I didn't say SPORT). I'm for keeping it a hobby. A nice family type activity without pressure. There are enough sports out there for the radicals. Just my thoughts.

2.3k · September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
I bet a large percentage of cachers who are not members would join and pay the membership just to get stats.

You got that right. Give me adjustable right-of-way corridor searches (along routes of streets or highways) and stats as part of Premium membership.

September 2, 2003

I think stats are fun and I am interested in seeing gc.com support them. I am not very worried about cheaters or competition getting unruly.

A close analogy might be found from the birdwatching world. They count and from what I hear "birders" are quite honorable about it. I don't see why geocachers would be any less honorable.

Of course, birdwatchers combine their observations to give a better picture of ecological conditions when one looks at bird counts by geography over time. This may be part of the reason they keep stats but I know that most birders also know how many species they have as well.

Could some birdwatcher add some observations from that hobby in terms of how individual stats hurt or make it more enjoyable.

Thanks,

Team Geo-Jedi

Team Geo-Jedi, Searchers 4 Ground Truth

1.3k · September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Mustard and Company:
First, I think if you make a public leader board, it will turn caching into a competition. Maybe just for bragging rites, but a competition none-the-less. As it is now, I go out and it's me against my wits, experience, know how, the terrain, etc. Not me against you or him to see who climbs to the top of the list. Hypothetically, lets say the leaderboard posts the top 100 in the state. I have 41 caches. I am number 101. I know that number 100 has two bogus cache finds, but claims 43 finds. Do I A. Run out and find 3 more caches quickly? B. Log 3 bogus finds figuring I can do them over the coming weekend? (Besides someone has already done that to get into the top 100) C. Write lengthly e-mails to "TPTB" for a remedy. D. Give up and forget it. Everyone knows it will be "C", a gripe-fest first then B as an alternative. To keep the playing field level, somebody will have to police it, and make unpopular decisions, especially about questionable find claims. This will ultimately lead to disgruntled parties. It doesn't take much imagination to realize what those folks could do to a hobby that relies on trust as much as this one does. I think if "TPTB" want to provide data to a third party, and let someone else have the hassles then go for it. Right now, if I run into a cacher in the woods it's a friendly affair. If he or she and I were competing for that number 100 spot (or higher), do you think it would remain a frienly family oriented pastime? Also, think about this..... If I'm in one of the top spots and I want to slow down the competition, what better way than to just take a few caches along out of the woods when I leave? Now there's a plus for the hobby!! (Notice I didn't say SPORT). I'm for keeping it a hobby. A nice family type activity without pressure. There are enough sports out there for the radicals. Just my thoughts.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of the posters to this thread read anything beyond the first message before offering their opinion. It also seems that a lot of people who are AGAINST it were unaware that a leaderboard did exist (although not sanctioned by gc.com and not perfect) and although problems occured there were rarely, if ever, major problems. Nobody was out hijacking cachers so they could run their numbers up.

There would be absolutely NO reason to email Groundspeak about 'bogus' finds. It is the responsibility of a cache owner to handle that. They already do and the prescence of a leaderboard wouldn't affect this.

Some of the hypothetical situations you are suggesting are just absurd. There WAS an unoffical leaderboard that was widely used for a VERY long time - none of those things ever happened.

I have heard of people stealing caches on purpose - but not because they were at the 'top of the list' and wanted to do away with competition. That would be a fruitless endeavor - there are too many caches.

Do I think it would remain friendly? I KNOW it would - it was with the leaderboard. I was friends with everybody I'd met on the leaderboard - and when I met somebody I KNEW they were an active cacher because of the name.

Also the stats/leaderboard allowed me and others to keep track of recent logs within a state or area, archived caches, and the leaderboard allowed me to gain a quick grasp of who was caching and who wasn't. It also allowed me (and others) to compare my activity to other geocachers. This doesn't necessarily mean the top person, or active people.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 2, 2003

78% of geocachers make up 93% of thier stats on the fly, and 57 % of time the are believed. Also 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom of thier class

Don't sweat the petty things, don't pet the sweaty things.

September 2, 2003

Maybe gc.com should hire your son. He seems more motivated to provide customer service!

quote:
Originally posted by rickrich:
Actual conversation at dinner tonight:

Wifey: How many people have logged cache finds in all 50 states?

Me: I don't know

NineYrOldSon: geocaching.com should make a list

-Rick

September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:

There would be absolutely NO reason to email Groundspeak about 'bogus' finds. It is the responsibility of a cache owner to handle that.

That line belongs in the "Do You Know a Funny Joke" thread.

quote:
"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

Balogna. Artificial silence is not hard to create.

September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
Nobody was out hijacking cachers so they could run their numbers up.

Disclaimer: I never visited the previous leaderboard...

I could see a gc.com sanctioned board causing some people to feel the need to cheat to raise their stats. There are a VAST MAJORITY of cachers out there that are interested in nothing more than having a good time. But it only takes a handful of jerks to ruin it for everyone.

People in this thread say "I am obsessed with stats". Yeah, and obsession leads to cheating. It's a common occurance with MANY examples across ALL sports. Sad but true. What sport hasn't seen WRs broken because of drug induced cheating?

If there is a board it could cause people to cheat to be at the top.

quote:
I was friends with everybody I'd met on the leaderboard - and when I met somebody I KNEW they were an active cacher because of the name.

I suppose that this would be somewhat true. I have recognized plenty of active cachers from this site, their logs in caches near me, etc. I don't know if a leaderboard is required to do that.

quote:
the leaderboard allowed me to gain a quick grasp of who was caching and who wasn't. It also allowed me (and others) to compare my activity to other geocachers.

Eh, you can do that currently w/how gc.com is setup.

Just my worthless .02

1.3k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Eh, you can do that currently w/how gc.com is setup.

That's my point - it can already be done but it is time consuming and not userfriendly. There are lots of people who would love to see lots of the information on this website compiled in a more user friendly manner.

sd

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
That's my point - it can already be done but it is time consuming and not userfriendly. There are lots of people who would love to see lots of the information on this website compiled in a more user friendly manner.

How much time, energy, bandwith, and CPU time would it take for the website to run those stats for the users? Would it increase the traffic too much?

Is it worth it just to have it available to members only (I doubt it)?

Is it worth the time and effort to have the possibility that with the increased exposure (instead of it being offsite) it will cause problems in the sport?

September 4, 2003

What I'd like to know is WHY geocaching com is blocking azgeocaching.com from getting statistics for the state of Arizona?

September 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by graldrich:
What I'd like to know is WHY geocaching com is blocking azgeocaching.com from getting statistics for the state of Arizona?

We don't block people/sites like this. If you're having connectivity problems, email me at admin at Groundspeak dot com and I'll be happy to investigate this for you.

Elias

1.5k · September 5, 2003

Elias,

The Snaptek guys that run azgeocaching.com have been banned. One IP was banned, so it was changed to another and pulled ONLY new cache info, but was banned a day later. Jason Poulter did send an e-mail over a week ago, but no response as of yet.

Brian

Team A.I.

[edit]

Another e-mail was sent today and was replied to. All appears to be well.

[/edit]

[This message was edited by Brian - Team A.I. on September 05, 2003 at 08:26 PM.]

September 5, 2003

As a geocacher I personally liked the stats page. For all whom gripe that this will turn into a competition. You my friends are 2 late. If you don't like competition do like alot of other people and ignore the stats page. You can look at the stats with out getting excited and want to race. I like to see where I sit against other people in my area weather they are racing or not.Those of you that are worried about cheating are killing me. I have paid my dues since I started this HOBBIE and could care less if YOU cheat. I will never make a million a year doing this and if it requires me to cheat then I need serious help. So lets all get off the high horse and get back to caching. I believe that the 1 man that built this whole sport can make these decisions without a pile of greif from all of our whimpering. After the sport is gone will we still be crying over what should have been fixed? Of course so lets save the whining till then and for now keep on cachin...

BTFI

[This message was edited by Beentherefoundit on September 05, 2003 at 11:19 PM.]

September 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by geo-jedi:
Could some birdwatcher add some observations from that hobby in terms of how individual stats hurt or make it more enjoyable.

I'm a birder (birdwatchers watch birds, birders watch birds and keep stats) and I commented briefly earlier in this thread regarding it.

As far as I know there has been little if any problems with stat keeping. The people that don't care about stats ignore them. There's no money involved so why cheat? Those that "cheat" are not thought highly of in birding circles so no one I've heard of does it.

Being #3, #2, or even #1 doesn't really mean squat. If you didn't do it fairly no one else cares what your score is and you certainly wouldn't feel good about the accomplishment.

Another thing that has staved off problems is the variety of stats that are kept. Anyone with a little effort can be at the top of some list. We have lists for days, years, life. State, country, county, yard. # of birds seen on wires, seen dead, eggs, or one I created myself but haven't had much luck spreading # seen defecating.

If gc.com or whoever makes leaderboards makes them flexible enough to keep track regionally (even down to county) I can't imagine you'd have many problems.

And it would get people out to a larger variety of places. I would never go look for a crow in podunk county, washington if it weren't for the fact that it would count on 3 or more lists.

5.7k · September 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
Nobody was out hijacking cachers (did you mean caches here?) so they could run their numbers up.

On a funny note, one cacher accused me of doing just that once. I wasn't amused at the time though...

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

September 6, 2003

quote:
How much time, energy, bandwith, and CPU time would it take for the website to run those stats for the users? Would it increase the traffic too much?

I don't think this is a problem. gc.com has done a lot tougher things with their website than adding stats.

quote:
Is it worth it just to have it available to members only (I doubt it)?

Either way it's worth it. If gc.com was enterprising, they would make it a member feature.

quote:
Is it worth the time and effort to have the possibility that with the increased exposure (instead of it being offsite) it will cause problems in the sport?

It will cause no problems with the sport. (Since there is an admission that this is a sport, it seems logical that there would be stats. What sport does not have stats?)

I think there are more problems now that stats ARE NOT being provided...certainly more complaints.

6.4k · September 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:

Either way it's worth it. If gc.com was enterprising, they would make it a member feature.

Last time I checked, private companies get to make their own decisions about how they run the company. If you don't like the way Chevy builds cars, you buy a Dodge. You don't buy a Chevy anyway, and complain every day that it's not the car you wanted.

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
It will cause no problems with the sport. (Since there is an admission that this is a sport, it seems logical that there would be stats. What sport does not have stats?)

Ahhh! Now I see the problem. Some people seem think this is a competative sport, like baseball. Yea, sports have stats, usually. However, aside from a very vocal minority, I think MOST geocachers consider this recreation. How many other recreational activities have stats? I don't see too many websites with hiking stats, or stats on how many historical markers one visits, or how many parks you've biked in. Show me the stats page for R/C planes. Tell me who the top 10 stamp collectors are by state. Who has attended to most BBQs? Who is the top camper in the country?

Unlike sports, recreational activities are not stats driven. Sure I miss seeing my name in the list of top 10 cachers in the state, but the loss of Dan's site sure hasnt made my caching less enjoyable.

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
I think there are more problems now that stats ARE NOT being provided...certainly more complaints.

GC.com has NEVER provided stats. If you want to complain, you should be complaining to Dan, I guess. You can't complain to someone about loosing something they never gave you in the 1st place. Besides, the complaints are a vocal minority. I see the same dozen or so people complaining in the various threads, while the other 150,000+ geocachers go right on enjoying geocaching as it always has been on this site, without stats.

"This is gc.com, love it or leave it "

September 6, 2003

Check the top of this thread as it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

62% of 186 votes say they want a leader board.

That's 115 people. Granted it's no huge number but how many cachers watch the forums and of those how many are willing to voice their opinions.

Your right about complaining about loosing something that gc.com never provided in the first place. I'M NOT COMPLAINING just asking for a new feature.

From what I hear on this forum gc.com is not very responsive to the needs of it's users (not customers as most don't pay). Maps showing found caches, pocket queries gone mad, new terms and conditions, a new site format that few like... I guess you get what you pay for but, in this case, I won't pay for what I'm getting or even could get.

If you don't care about stats then get off the thread!

The lack of stats won't stop me from caching but I have cut back quite a bit. I'd be interested to see if the number of finds has dropped off now that Dan's site is gone. Oh wait, that would be more stats!

I think I'll go flying this weekend instead of caching.

September 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by balloonatic:
Check the top of this thread as it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

62% of 186 votes say they want a leader board.

That's 115 people. Granted it's no huge number but how many cachers watch the forums and of those how many are willing to voice their opinions.

It appears to me that 115 is about right for a very vocal minority.

quote:

Your right about complaining about loosing something that gc.com never provided in the first place. I'M NOT COMPLAINING just asking for a new feature.

From what I hear on this forum gc.com is not very responsive to the needs of it's users (not customers as most don't pay). Maps showing found caches, pocket queries gone mad, new terms and conditions, a new site format that few like... I guess you get what you pay for but, in this case, I won't pay for what I'm getting or even could get.

Yup. Some people do a lot of complaining about something they get for free. Free is the operating word here.

quote:

If you don't care about stats then get off the thread!

Let's see if I understand this statement. "If you don't agree with this vocal minority then go away. We want our way and ***** until we get it."

quote:

The lack of stats won't stop me from caching but I have cut back quite a bit. I'd be interested to see if the number of finds has dropped off now that Dan's site is gone. Oh wait, that would be more stats!

Are you saying you aint gonna play as much as did because of the lack of stats. It's too bad that you feel such a need to compete. You're OK without needing to try to prove you're the best at what ever activity you participate in. (Read I'm OK, you're OK.)

Byron

September 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:
... Yup. Some people do a lot of complaining about something they get for free. Free is the operating word here ...

Byron

There are a good many of us who gladly pay our membership dues. So, it's not free. Perhaps a 'stats' page could be a Premium Member feature. Aside from the Pocket Queries, the PM bonuses are minimal.

This is not a complaint, rather it's a possible solution. I look at my membership fees as a way to thank TPTB for a great site. However, I did enjoy the stats. As it added another dimension to the hobby.

Throw us a bone here...

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves.

Henry David Thoreau

September 7, 2003

If 69% of respondents is a small but vocal minority who want stats, then it follows that those who don't want them are an even smaller (though every bit as vocal) minority. Of the cachers I know and have met I have yet to encounter anyone who doesn't want stats, or at least who would care if they are provided. They may not care about stats (a small minority) but they really don't care. Mean they don't care if they are provided and if other members use them.

I have yet to see a reasoned explaination of why anyone who "doesn't care" about stats would want to make the decision for everyone and not allow anyone to have them provided in a user friendly way (after all, they are already provided).

Development issues and complaints may be rellevant from the perspective of gc.com but what the heck does that have to do with members? That's their issue and if it is why they are not providing stats they could say so.

But from a member perspective, what would stats do TO YOU that make you so dead set against them being provided for others? If you don't care, why do you care?

All I've seen on this so far are angry personal attacks against individuals who gain additional enjoyment out of a little competition.

For some people, playing football means a recreational activity of tossing a ball around the backyard. For some it's a multi-million dollar career and bidness. And there is a broad spectrum in between. Why would the guy who just tosses the pigskin around the back yard want to keep his neighbor from reading the sports page stats just because he doesn't care about them?

2.5k · September 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by balloonatic:
Check the top of this thread as it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

62% of 186 votes say they want a leader board.

Polls mean nothing and prove nothing since only a small percentage of the community visit the forums. A random sampling is the only way to get the pulse of the community. I agree however that it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

September 7, 2003

quote:
If you don't care about stats then get off the thread!

Nah, I think that EVERYONE has the right to counter your desire to change the site whether they care or not.

quote:
The lack of stats won't stop me from caching but I have cut back quite a bit. I'd be interested to see if the number of finds has dropped off now that Dan's site is gone. Oh wait, that would be more stats!

I didn't know about a stats page and I am doing more caching now than ever. I am not out there to see how many I can get, how I stack up against someone else, etc. I geocache to get outside, find new and interesting places, and go hiking.

I guess being an athelete my whole life has stopped me from caring about stats. My whole life was full of goal setting, record breaking, and competing. I don't care for that anymore. It's a lot less stressful.

quote:
I think I'll go flying this weekend instead of caching.

I guess you just made someone else's stats all that much better.

Silent Bob.

September 7, 2003

Ok this thing is still the leader of topics that makes it a Stat? But what ever makes the world go round ya know. I have seen where there is several groups of people that would be willing to pay for such a service. But have no interest in paying for avalible services. So no help there--but it would be up to cache owners to police there own caches, Is in fact an additional expence. To do maintainece checks on a regular basis can and would be costly to say the least. Three caches at over three hundred miles at todays gas prices would kill an average paycheck. But as has been pointed out by a few geo-people. Keep it only to those who would be willing to pay and those who don't, opt out of every thing. So that kinda puts stats in the pointless kinda place. Then you got North vrs. South. In some Northwestern areas Geo-Caching only lasts half as long. Again Pointless stats. I see to maney variables to make this program accurate, and therefor useless to anyone. If the stats are only going to be for a small % of a smaller % of people who want them If you only have a hundred people, who want to share there stats! We are purdy much back to pointless again. cept for all the people that have to pay for a sevice that does not interest them. I have to say that, if this service does becomes avalible. Then keep the stats as well as the Pay seperate from all who do not want it. Only then will we have an actual counting of who wants this service. Stats (so to speak) And unless you have a full and complete count then once again you are back at the pointless area. Count them up, but leave me out --- I vote no!

1.3k · September 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

quote:
Originally posted by balloonatic:
Check the top of this thread as it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

62% of 186 votes say they want a leader board.

Polls mean nothing and prove nothing since only a small percentage of the community visit the forums. A random sampling is the only way to get the pulse of the community. I agree however that it's the only way we have to voice our opinions.

Dead on - The poll means nothing. Neither does saying that the same dozen people post to the same few threads.

A MINORITY of geocachers read the forums. An even SMALLER minority posts here. An EVEN smaller minority posts with any regularity.

There are a sizeable number of geocachers who don't log finds. Anybody who has found more than a few geocaches knows this. There are often more logs in the logbook than online.

A random sampling would be the way to go but that would require gc.com admin to handle that. They could send an email to a link for an official poll or something.

The bit about not paying for Premium Membership to support current features is WRONG. I buy geocaching merchandise. I have in the past and will likely do so in the future. This merchandise supports the website. I'd argue that listing a cache on here supports the website, but we won't get into that.

Again - it's NOT necessarily about competition. It's about compiling information that is already available in a more user friendly way.

I knew I'd never be #1 in my state due to location and time. That did not make the leaderboard useless to me.

BTW - there is a difference between a leaderboard and statistics - although the difference has become quite fuzzy. There are statistics that geocaching.com do provide. Some are presented openly:

1. The number of countries with caches. 2. The number of users on the forums (I assume it's the same as # of users on the main site since the accounts are created during one process). 3. The number of caches within 100 mile radius. 4. The top 10 travelbugs. 5. The last 200 logs entries.

They offer A LOT more that aren't as easily seen. You can determine the number of active caches per state, finds/hides of a user (by cache type, no less), etc. It just requires a bit of searching.

I know that I'm not the only person who finds this information useful. Being able to see who's active in a glance, recent logs in a state/city/area, etc. It was also neat to compare yourself to active and inactive cachers that you know.

There are lots of ways that a leaderboard and/or other statistical information is useful - and it's not necessarily about competition. Even if it is for some - if it doesn't matter to you - why do ya care? There will always be fake logs and hurt feelings.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 7, 2003

Wow 224 posts! Is that a record? Dont you get tired of argueing? How about, I be fore and you be against --just for a change?

September 7, 2003

quote:
It was also neat to compare yourself to active and inactive cachers that you know.

There are scripts available that allow you to retrieve information about individuals. You go ahead, modify those, and make your own site. Charge a fee or sell merchandise or do it all out of pocket/donations.

Put some work into it (like the previous individual who ran the site that you are so fond of did). Make a site that all Geocachers interested in their stats/leaderboard will goto.

That way it won't be apart of gc.com, you will control it as you want, and it won't suck bandwith/money/resources from the rest of us that don't care (including those that don't even log their finds outside of the actual caches themselves).

Just my worthless .02,

Silent Bob

1.3k · September 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moonbase:
Wow 224 posts! Is that a record? Dont you get tired of argueing? How about, I be fore and you be against --just for a change?

What exactly does my number of posts have to do with anything? This is entirely off topic. There are quite a few posters here with THOUSANDS of posts. Go pick on one of them. You seem to be making this some kind of personal attack - that is immature and uncalled for.

quote:
Originally posted by Marsha and Silent Bob:

quote:
It was also neat to compare yourself to active and inactive cachers that you know.

There are scripts available that allow you to retrieve information about individuals. You go ahead, modify those, and make your own site. Charge a fee or sell merchandise or do it all out of pocket/donations.

Put some work into it (like the previous individual who ran the site that you are so fond of did). Make a site that all Geocachers interested in their stats/leaderboard will goto.

That way it won't be apart of gc.com, you will control it as you want, and it won't suck bandwith/money/resources from the rest of us that don't care (including those that don't even log their finds outside of the actual caches themselves).

Just my worthless .02,

Silent Bob

http://www.mngca.org/images/MnGCA-Button.gif

It's amazing that in my whole post - you latch on to one of the most minor things I put on there. If you want an answer - here is one - I do not program. I know very little about HTML, mySQL, perl, etc. What I do know is what is possible. I also know that since this website has it's data in a database - it would be easy to do the things that some people are asking. Charging for data from geocaching.com is ILLEGAL (unless you are the admin for geocaching.com).

It's interesting that you support people who don't log online - I hope you don't get flamed for that. I realize there are reasons - but to avoid competition is a very weak one.

Back to topic -

It would be nice to have an official leaderboard. It wouldn't create any of the problems people claim - they already exist and always will exist. They haven't reduced since Dan's site went down. If anything, an official site would reduce some of the problems inherit with an unofficial page.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
[it's amazing that in my whole post - you latch on to one of the most minor things I put on

I don't consider it minor. You are asking for something that could be quite a bit of work. I don't think you have the right to ask them to stop whatever else they might be doing and create something that a small minority seems to want.

quote:
there. If you want an answer - here is one - I do not program. I know very little about HTML, mySQL, perl, etc. What I do know is what is possible. I also know that since this website has it's data in a database - it would be easy to do the things that some people are asking.

Then learn or don't worry about it. The information is available via scripts that are already out there. If you don't want to put the time into it, I don't see how you can't expect them to.

quote:
It's interesting that you support people who don't log online - I hope you don't get flamed for that. I realize there are reasons - but to avoid competition is a very weak one.

I have no idea why they don't log online. Possibly because they just don't care enough. They are in it for the outdoorsmanship, the fun, and the find. They could care less about their totals, etc.

Silent Bob

2.6k · September 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marsha and Silent Bob:

quote:
there. If you want an answer - here is one - I do not program. I know very little about HTML, mySQL, perl, etc. What I do know is what is possible. I also know that since this website has it's data in a database - it would be easy to do the things that some people are asking.

Then learn or don't worry about it. The information is available via scripts that are already out there. If you don't want to put the time into it, I don't see how you can't expect them to.

I'm not expecting new features, but as a user of this service I can always hope for them. These forums are one way given to us for requesting them.

Yes, some people don't log online. They don't do it even when they could see their totals after their name in logs. They didn't log online when Dan's site was up. I don't think stats provided by gc.com would make them log online. They couldn't possibly care less about their totals even if we had a new accurate stats page. That doesn't speak against having one. They would just ignore it, like any anti-stats person should.

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

1.3k · September 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marsha and Silent Bob:

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:
[it's amazing that in my whole post - you latch on to one of the most minor things I put on

I don't consider it minor. You are asking for something that could be quite a bit of work. I don't think you have the right to ask them to stop whatever else they might be doing and create something that a small minority seems to want.

quote:
there. If you want an answer - here is one - I do not program. I know very little about HTML, mySQL, perl, etc. What I do know is what is possible. I also know that since this website has it's data in a database - it would be easy to do the things that some people are asking.

Then learn or don't worry about it. The information is available via scripts that are already out there. If you don't want to put the time into it, I don't see how you can't expect them to.

You cannot prove that only a minority wants this anymore than I could prove that a majority wants it. I beleive that enough people would like to see the new feature added to make it a worthwile feature.

I have 2 children and a full time job. I do not have the time to learn several programming languages. I think this quote from another thread on the 'General Board' is relevant, however:

quote:
Originally posted by robertlipe:
[ bringing this back to intended topic ]

FWIW, I am an accomplished programmer that is probably recognizable in the geocaching community. I have offered to put my code where my mouth is. I have the resources, computer and human, within reach, even when not within immediate disposal - to help make this kind of thing happen.

Despite a couple of contact attempts, I've gotten no response from contact@geocaching.com.

If "the house" would give us a little wiggle room from the terms of service, this could happen in relatively short oder. If they could actually open up SQL access to a selected parntner, it could happen almost immediately.

But the fact that such requests are repeatedly ignored doesn't fare well.

That post was interesting and show that at least one (and I've seen several people mention they'd do the same) has the desire and ability to step up to do it.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

September 8, 2003

I don't care if you keep track or not.

If someone wants to keep score, that is fine with me. I'd rather spend my time putting out some interesting caches....

Dave_W6DPS

My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only)

September 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
Competitive sports are crazy with stats. Why? Because they're competitive.

Competitive sports have The Rules of The Game. The Rules dictate how a game is played, the rules on scoring, etc. In soccer there are timed quarters. In golf there are strokes.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Maybe I should rename "leader board" to "stats borad". Stats board doesn't cause competition. Competition is caused by some cachers' minds.

Atomic can be used in peace (electricity) , but also can be used in war (bomb).

I know I won't be a leader, but I need a stats board. I like to reaserch the condition of other cachers. Researching is also a fun.

Fun means:

Friend:"Who is the top hunter here?"

I:"xxxxxxxxx"

Friend:"How many has he hunt?"

I:"********"

Friend:"And you?"

I:"****"

Friend:"Oh, God! A man has more leisure time than you! What's he and how often he hunt?............"

& , competition is not a too bad thing, if some cachers want a stats board to competite.

Life short, Hunt more.

[This message was edited by rjt on September 08, 2003 at 06:26 PM.]

1.2k · September 8, 2003

I have a great idea. Let's just have a leaderboard of DNFs (Did Not Finds). This would keep everyone honest and report it when they do not find a cache. This would be good for both the hunter and the hider. The hunter can then know his lack of find is not in vain, because his score would go up on the leaderboard. And for the hider, he can glory in the fact that his cache was hidden so well that many did not find it. But wait, then the cheaters will just sit at home and log a bunch of DNFs because they didn't go out and look for the caches. You just can't win for losing!!! Whose idea was that anyway?

As Confucious said: A book is like a geocacher. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover, neither can you judge a geocacher by his stats.

September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Navigatorz:
As Confucious said: A book is like a geocacher. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover, neither can you judge a geocacher by his stats.

Ha ha ha!!! Very good words. But I've majored in Chinese Literature for 7 years(& I'm a Chinese). This is my first time to hear this Confucious proverb.

Life short, Hunt more.

September 9, 2003

I see offering stats as part of a "big tent" approach to geocaching. I mean, folks geocache for all sorts of different reasons, and for some people, stats are motivating. I think it'd be nice to offer that view of the data for those who'd like to have it, and I'd hate to see anyone lose interest because they couldn't get it.

-------------

"Thos' Degrees of Longitude and Latitude in Name, yet in Earthly reality are they Channels mark'd for the transport of some unseen Influence, one carefully assembl'd chain…"

– Thomas Pynchon, Mason & Dixon

September 10, 2003

We actually found the old insidecorner stats useful for another purpose - it showed how many cachers were "active" in a given area. A few people in Australia were able to use these stats to put the minds of the local Parks & Wildlife authorities at rest ... they were concerned that a cache hidden in a park would lead to hordes of cachers trampling the immediate square mile around GZ and leaving piles of litter in their wake. When they could see that there were only a handful of cachers active in any 30 day period in a state with over a million people (using figures for Victoria, Australia), they relaxed somewhat and usually allowed the cache to be placed in the confined of the park - at a mutually agreeable location.

Thus - stats can also be used for good, and not just for evil!! Granted there are probably a few more active cachers in most US states than in Australian states, but I'm sure the principle holds true regardless.

Geocaching is based on an honour code - equal swaps, fair ratings, and don't log a cache/TB/benchmark you haven't actually found. Like all honour systems it's open to abuse ... it's up to the rest of us to make sure this doesn't take over and destroy the spirit of the sport. Stats included.

September 10, 2003

I'm posting this message just to run up my posting stats! Wahoo!

The notion that a leaderboard, or even just stats, would create such a competitive environment that people would cheat is ridiculous. GC is based on honesty and the honor system.

2.6k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
I'm posting this message just to run up my posting stats! Wahoo!

The notion that a leaderboard, or even just stats, would create such a competitive environment that people would cheat is ridiculous. GC is based on honesty and the honor system.

My post count is higher than yours, so my opinion is more important than yours.

(Too bad I agree with you, though.)

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

September 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
I'm posting this message just to run up my posting stats! Wahoo!

The notion that a leaderboard, or even just stats, would create such a competitive environment that people would cheat is ridiculous. GC is based on honesty and the honor system.

Cheater!

GF

********************************************

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

24.7k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
I'm posting this message just to run up my posting stats! Wahoo!...

I'm still behind BrianSnat.

September 11, 2003

I see stats as being informative to me instead of competative. I think additional stats like those Dan provided would be an excellent addition to this website.

I like stats. I do not cache FOR the sake of stats. I do not cache to be better than anyone else. I just like to see them.

Also.

One of the spin-offs from Dan's stats was an area on his site to check out a city, and see the activity there. It would show you the very latest geocache found there, by whom, and so on, back over the past few days. It was much like the global feature on GC.com first page, just localized. It was a great feature to see what was going on in your city, who what hitting what cache if you didn't happen to have all 500 of them on your watchlist.

I'd love a feature like that here as well.

September 12, 2003

Here is my 3 cents worth ( Used to be 2 cents, but I got a raise )

1. As a programmer, I know the demands of programming maintenance, which can be even greater than the original project. This puts GC.com in the position of being both techie AND police. It's a virtual certainty that they will get emails like 'You've got to dock cacherXYZ, he cheated on cache ABC'. If I am GC.com, I don't need the headaches.

2. But I'm not totally against any statistical info. I like the differentiation between Comparative and Competitive. Comparative gives a relative picture, but no absolutes. Much less incentive to cheat or whine if I see that I am in the 19th precentile bracket (of 20) in my state (or 91% to 95%) of searchers, and trying to work up in the standings. Then the conversation goes like this:

9-yr-old son: Hey, dad, where are you ranked in the state for number of finds?

Dad: Well, I don't know exactly, but for every 20 cache seekers, I've got more than 19 of them.

9-yr-old son: I'm proud of you, dad.

Dad: And I'm proud of you, son.

3. I do feel that statistics breeds competition. Is competition good for this pastime? Will it create a popularity swell? Most sports/hobbies are improved with increased exposure and interest, but that has a limitation here. I'm greedy with the activity as it exists now: the quiet hikes, the secretive cache extrusions/replacements, the lack of beaten down trails to the cache sites. The day that I wait in line to sign a logbook is probably the day I move on to another activity. But this idea of popularity extends beyond just the statistics question.

4. This is a personal issue, as I am a bit obsessive/compulsive at times. With pure stats, the urge to surpass cacherXYZ may cause me to go after that cache titled "Ledge Of Death" at midnight Sunday with my penlight battery fading. ( Oh, no, Mr. Bill ... ) .

P.S. As it happens, the celebrity from which my moniker was taken passed away this morning. May Johnny Cash rest in peace, and his music live on in our hearts.

"He who shall, so shall he who." - Anonymous

[This message was edited by Juan E Cache on September 12, 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

September 12, 2003

9/2/2003 quote, southdeltan: I'm beginning to wonder if some of the posters to this thread read anything beyond the first message before offering their opinion.

_______________________________________________

9/2/2003 quote, southdeltan: Some of the hypothetical situations you are suggesting are just absurd.

_______________________________________________

9/7/2003 quote, southdeltan:You seem to be making this some kind of personal attack - that is immature and uncalled for.

_______________________________________________

Hmmmmm?

September 12, 2003

I ain't been on the boards in a long time - Howdy everyone!

I think it's been nice that in geocaching, everyone seems to decide for themselves how much they want to 'compete'. Competition hasn't been 'officially' encouraged, but those who are very competitive by nature have found ways to compete and seem to relish it.

I know some folks who are pretty cut-throat about being 'First Finder'; where the heck did that come from? I guess there must a web page listing who has the most 'First Finds', otherwise that competition wouldn't exist.

Oh yeah... now what was that web page that lists who has the 'most Finds in a single day'? Or the one that lists who has the 'most Finds at night'? I've not seen any stats for these activities, but it seems that many cachers are striving to be first in these self-determined competitions.

My point is that the existance of a stats page is not going to have that big an effect on how 'competitive' geocaching is. As long as individuals who are competitive by nature continue to participate, they will find ways to make it a competitive activity. But, as long as the official policy of GC is that this is NOT a competition, then it is NOT. Those of us who don't want to compete should feel no pressure to do so, and those of us who want to compete are going to do so anyway.

Providing that Geocaching.com does not endorse competition officially, I'd certainly like to see a stats section. Curious minds want to know, and as long as the stats are presented as 'info only' and not an 'official scoreboard' each individual can can do with it what they wish.

September 13, 2003

I don't believe there are very many reasons left for me to go geocaching. I've seen just about every park in the Chicago area so geocaching to see the parks isn't of any value. To get exercise, yes there is that but I can do that anywhere any time and like I said I already know where the parks are and I've found the caches in them. So what is left? There were stats but that's not the case any longer. I've gone from finding 25 a week to 6 a week. Cache on while you enjoy it because GCs view of geocaching is very limited and becomes rather boring over time.

I'd rather go geocaching!

September 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Greenback:
I've gone from finding 25 a week to 6 a week. Cache on while you enjoy it because GCs view of geocaching is very limited and becomes rather boring over time.

Perhaps you would have been bored regardless of stats? Finding 25 a week seems a bit excessive to *ME*. I find about 8-10 a week and I enjoy that. If I was finding 25 a week it would quickly wear out the available caches in the area.

Why would competition need to drive you? Why can't you just enjoy it for what it is? Getting outside, enjoying the hunt, and doing something other than watching TV?

I guess everyone has their own reasons

Silent Bob

5.7k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marsha and Silent Bob:

quote:
Originally posted by Greenback:
I've gone from finding 25 a week to 6 a week. Cache on while you enjoy it because GCs view of geocaching is very limited and becomes rather boring over time.

Perhaps you would have been bored regardless of stats? Finding 25 a week seems a bit excessive to *ME*. I find about 8-10 a week and I enjoy that. If I was finding 25 a week it would quickly wear out the available caches in the area.

We have been pretty consistently averaging 25 a week for over a year. It's not boring to us. Of course, we do live in one of the most cache dense areas in the world, so that may have something to do with it.

One of the great things about geocaching is that it is completely self service and you can make it into what ever you want. I know some people who have been caching for a couple of years but only have 30 or 40 finds. They still enjoy the ones that they do. For us, it just happens to be something that both my wife and I enjoy, and it keeps our minds and bodies active and outside in the fresh air (okay, well, the 100 degree weather in Sacramento didn't seem all *that* fresh this weekend, but we still had a great time).

For some people (a lot, I would guess), statistics are fun. It can add additional enjoyment to the activity, for those that like them, and it doesn't bother the people that don't like them because statistics are fairly easy to avoid (other than the find count posted on the log entries). I hope that someone steps up to the table sometime soon and puts together some decent stats (without screen scraping, if at all possible).

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

September 15, 2003

All I want to know is:

1. Is GC.com going to add a stats page? And if not is anyone else going to create one?

2. When are the maps with my finds noted going to be available again?

Oh, and thanks for all the hard work guys.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.

-Ambrose Bierce, writer (1842-1914)

Geocaching.com should create a leader board

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