Bottle preforms - small or micros?

[iWikeCake]

I've been seeing a lot of logs lately complaining that bottle preforms are mislabled as small and should be micros. I'm thinking of putting one out and would like some feedback regarding this issue.

 

The only info I could find on Groundspeak is this page.

Under "micro" is states, "micro: e.g. 35mm film canister or smaller". Preforms are clearly larger than a film canister.

Under "small" it states, "small: Holds only a small logbook and small items." Most of the preforms in my are contain small trinkets like butterfly erasers, tiny animal figurines and so forth.

 

It seems clear to me that they should be designated as 'small'. Is there another page other than the one I linked to above that contradicts my assumptions?

 

Thanks,

IWC

 

(If this has been covered previously I apologize but I couldn't find it using 'search')

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I list them as Micros. However, in the body of the listing I describe that you are looking for a plastic test tube.

 

You could put tiny erasers (or in my case itty-bitty pigs) in a film can - doesn't make it a small though.

[+briansnat]

The old guidelines said "Micro (35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L ". I just measured the volume of a preform and it came out to about 1 3/4 oz., which puts it in micro territory.

[+Ike 13]

Micro. Always base it on what the inside can hold. Briansnat's method works well. I just think can it hold much more than a log. In this case that's a no. So it's a micro

[+simpjkee]

By the definitions from the knowledgebooks page, it does look like a soda preform would be a small. I think an argument can be made for it being a 'large micro' though. Scroll down on the knowledgebooks page you linked and look at the section for 'Pill Bottles'. The pill bottle shown looks shorter than the preform but slightly wider. They describe the pill bottle as a large micro. Interestingly, that seems to contradict their description of micro being 'smaller than a film canister'. Apparently a micro is smaller than a film canister, but a large micro can be a little bigger than a film canister.

 

In regards to the logs from people saying that preforms should be micro and not small, I think that is a sign of the times. What is small today was micro back in the day and what is micro today hardly existed back in the day. I would guess that anyone who has been around for a while would be more inclined to think it should be a micro and not a small. I think GS has slightly adjusted the size definitions over time and maybe the geocaching community is a little slow catching up.

 

That all being considered, if it were my cache, I would list it as small.

[+simpjkee]

The old guidelines said "Micro (35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L ". I just measured the volume of a preform and it came out to about 1 3/4 oz., which puts it in micro territory.

 

See what I mean?

[+ZSandmann]

Large micro in my opinion. The inside area is not conducive to most swag. Sure I can cram a dime in it, but I can do that to a film can as well. I have never seen a preform listed as a small down here (Texas/Louisiana).

[+StarBrand]

Clearly a micro - no doubt in my mind at all.

 

Small should be something closer to a sandwich sized container. I think you could line up 4 or more preforms in what I call a small.

 

On the other hand - I see where a lot of newer cachers are calling .50 cal ammo boxes 'Large' caches these days. Sigh....

[+M 5]

The old guidelines said "Micro (35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L ". I just measured the volume of a preform and it came out to about 1 3/4 oz., which puts it in micro territory.

 

See what I mean?

 

The dropdown menu when you fill out the new cache form, still uses 35mm as the micro example. I do remember it used to give volumes as well, but I don't see that anymore. I always use the "if it can't hold the normal size geocoin" then its a micro. Although that method brings Altoids tins into the small category, so once again, no method it perfect.

[+JoLTeam]

I have a few PET preform caches and I've labeled them all as micros, since there is no room for swag or trackables.

[knowschad]

It seems that the difference is due to the fact that some hiders/finders use the size to indicate what the container can hold, and others use it to indicate how difficult it is likekly to be to spot the container. In the first case, a film cannister and a preform would hold roughly the same stuff. But typically, the preform would be easier to spot (given roughly similar hiding techniques).

 

Bottom line, to me, is that all of these things: size, difficulty, and terrain are simply guidelines. Take any of them too literally and you are only going to narrow your focus too much.

[+briansnat]

The old guidelines said "Micro (35 mm film canister or smaller – less than approximately 3 ounces or .1 L ". I just measured the volume of a preform and it came out to about 1 3/4 oz., which puts it in micro territory.

 

See what I mean?

 

Old as in 3 months ago.

[GOF and Bacall]

I've always said, even without measuring, that they were closer in size to a film can than a sandwich container. The way the guidelines were written tended to make it hard to categorize them. Film can or smaller vs. sandwich size container or larger. To be honest I don't think the new wording is any clearer.

[knowschad]

I've always said, even without measuring, that they were closer in size to a film can than a sandwich container. The way the guidelines were written tended to make it hard to categorize them. Film can or smaller vs. sandwich size container or larger. To be honest I don't think the new wording is any clearer.

But they are closer in size to a sandwich container than a Bison tube. And closer in size to a 50 cal. ammo box than to a nano.

[GOF and Bacall]

I've always said, even without measuring, that they were closer in size to a film can than a sandwich container. The way the guidelines were written tended to make it hard to categorize them. Film can or smaller vs. sandwich size container or larger. To be honest I don't think the new wording is any clearer.

But they are closer in size to a sandwich container than a Bison tube. And closer in size to a 50 cal. ammo box than to a nano.

 

And they are closer in size to an elephant than an aircraft carrier. The point is that the rule said 35mm film can and smaller or sandwich size or larger. So perhaps they should never have been used at all seeing as how they didn't seem to fit either description?

 

I thank Briansnat for measuring the volume. Seems like it answers the question.

Edited March 21, 2011 by GOF and Bacall

[+JL_HSTRE]

I've seen them sometimes as Small, but I would consider them Micro.

 

While they may be as tall as 2-3 film cans, they really aren't much wider and that's a very limiting factor. You simply aren't going to get much more than a logsheet and maybe a pen in them.

 

I also don't think you couldn't fit a TB dogtag into a soda preform (no matter what it was attached to) nor most geocoins, unlike typical small containers like decons, small lock-n-locks, and many pill bottles can fit most geocoins and easily fit a TB dogtag (depends what the tag is attached to though). I'd say more than specific measurements of volume or length/width, the most important factor with Micro vs Small is can it fit swag or trackables.

[+hzoi]

We've hidden many PET preform caches, and we've found scores (in Germany, they call them PETlings). All have been listed as micros.

 

The way I see it, just because you can cram an eraser in a PET preform, or a dime or euro cent, doesn't make it a "small."

 

Now, that's for PET preforms that would be made into a 0.5L bottle, with the small cap. If you had a PET preform for something with a wider neck, say, a preform for a jug of orange juice, you could certainly make an argument that it's more like a small.

[+Chrysalides]

If I read the current guidelines for the first time today and were to make a decision, I'd list it as a small.

 

Those who insist it is a micro without any doubt are all veterans who are very familiar with the old guidelines and have been following it for years. I wish Groundspeak did not remove the volume specification from the guidelines - it was useful.

 

Personally, I'll list it as a micro, because that is the size I'm familiar with for preforms (even though I'm no experienced veteran). I have no objections to anyone listing it as a small though. Thanks for pointing out the revised guidelines.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Chrysalides

[+StarBrand]

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

[+Chrysalides]

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

Yes, please. I've been waiting for that one for some time

 

Do let me know if you would like some assistance with it.

[+Castle Mischief]

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

 

Yes, please. I fully support this idea and would be willing to donate bandwidth to its success. I'd also be willing to support the clubing of baby seals if it means folks would stop using "other" for nanos, but that's another thread.

 

This bit of hyperbole brought to by the makers of Uni-Ball ink pens. Uni-Ball, they write on stuff real good.

[GOF and Bacall]

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

 

Yes, please. I fully support this idea and would be willing to donate bandwidth to its success. I'd also be willing to support the clubing of baby seals if it means folks would stop using "other" for nanos, but that's another thread.

 

This bit of hyperbole brought to by the makers of Uni-Ball ink pens. Uni-Ball, they write on stuff real good.

 

I will support anyone's right to beat a grizzly to death with a stick.

[+niraD]

FWIW, here's a suggestion on the feedback site to restore the size descriptions to the site:

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75863-report-a-problem/suggestions/1572833-size-descriptions-missing

[+Ecylram]

I'll go with the minority and say they are "smalls".

 

Micro's are film canisters or smaller. Since the volume of a standard preform is more than a film canister and less than a liter it is a small. Though a 'small' one.

[+hzoi]

For the preform = small crowd, would anyone mind clarifying the dimensions of the PET preforms you'd call small?

 

The ones we use are longer than a film can is tall, they're maybe 3.5 inches or so (film can is, what, about 2 inches?) but the internal diameter is about a centimeter across, maybe slightly wider. You could fit a US dime in there, but I doubt you could fit a penny in there. I know you can fit US quarters in a film can and still have some room around the edges, my dad used to stash spare change in them for tolls.

[+StarBrand]

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

Yes, please. I've been waiting for that one for some time

 

Do let me know if you would like some assistance with it.

 

This discussion just reminds of the need to get back to my comprehensive container database with photos.

 

Yes, please. I fully support this idea and would be willing to donate bandwidth to its success. I'd also be willing to support the clubing of baby seals if it means folks would stop using "other" for nanos, but that's another thread.

 

This bit of hyperbole brought to by the makers of Uni-Ball ink pens. Uni-Ball, they write on stuff real good.

 

Message heard.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

I've been advocating the use of preforms since 2004 or so. They are micros. Just because you can fit a very tiny trade item into them does not change the size. You could fit a BB into most bison tubes as a trade item- would that make those small too? Could a 'normal' trade item, coin or TB be put into either? No. Modified and specially sized ones can be tho. Over time, as micros became more ubiquitous, and smaller & smaller containers found and used, so it followed with trade items- smaller ones have also been found & used. I think part of it was the often heard complaint that there was no room in micros for trade items. The part of the guidelines that refer to trade items should just be removed, or modified (something along the lines of nano=BB, micro=small marble, small=golf ball, regular= baseball, large= 16" softball or bigger). I like to refer to this type of thing as 'size drift'. I'd even go so far as to call for 'preform' to replace 'film can' at some point- the former seems to be used in lots of places now while the latter are getting somewhat harder to find since digital photography has taken off. If the 'nano' size option is ever implemented it should help things somewhat, at least IMHO.

[+the4dirtydogs]

I've been advocating the use of preforms since 2004 or so. They are micros. Just because you can fit a very tiny trade item into them does not change the size. You could fit a BB into most bison tubes as a trade item- would that make those small too? Could a 'normal' trade item, coin or TB be put into either? No. Modified and specially sized ones can be tho. Over time, as micros became more ubiquitous, and smaller & smaller containers found and used, so it followed with trade items- smaller ones have also been found & used. I think part of it was the often heard complaint that there was no room in micros for trade items. The part of the guidelines that refer to trade items should just be removed, or modified (something along the lines of nano=BB, micro=small marble, small=golf ball, regular= baseball, large= 16" softball or bigger). I like to refer to this type of thing as 'size drift'. I'd even go so far as to call for 'preform' to replace 'film can' at some point- the former seems to be used in lots of places now while the latter are getting somewhat harder to find since digital photography has taken off. If the 'nano' size option is ever implemented it should help things somewhat, at least IMHO.

I've played mens softball before but I have never seen a 16"softball. Must needs one heck of an arm to throw that big ball. I'd bet it's easy to hit.

 

I think preforms should be a micro.

Edited March 21, 2011 by the4dirtydogs

[+Corp Of Discovery]

I've been advocating the use of preforms since 2004 or so. They are micros. Just because you can fit a very tiny trade item into them does not change the size. You could fit a BB into most bison tubes as a trade item- would that make those small too? Could a 'normal' trade item, coin or TB be put into either? No. Modified and specially sized ones can be tho. Over time, as micros became more ubiquitous, and smaller & smaller containers found and used, so it followed with trade items- smaller ones have also been found & used. I think part of it was the often heard complaint that there was no room in micros for trade items. The part of the guidelines that refer to trade items should just be removed, or modified (something along the lines of nano=BB, micro=small marble, small=golf ball, regular= baseball, large= 16" softball or bigger). I like to refer to this type of thing as 'size drift'. I'd even go so far as to call for 'preform' to replace 'film can' at some point- the former seems to be used in lots of places now while the latter are getting somewhat harder to find since digital photography has taken off. If the 'nano' size option is ever implemented it should help things somewhat, at least IMHO.

I've played mens softball before but I have never seen a 16"softball. Must needs one heck of an arm to throw that big ball. I'd bet it's easy to hit.

 

I think preforms should be a micro.

 

Here's a photo for comparison- that's a regular baseball on the left, a 11/12" softball in the middle and a 16" one on the right:

 

 

Here's a photo showing the items I mentioned in my original post:

 

[+shadowmib]

If this doesn't all fit inside, It's a micro.

 

If this wont fit inside, its a small.

 

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

If you can't fit a full size GeoCoin, it's a micro. That's why they make MicroCoins.

[GOF and Bacall]

If this doesn't all fit inside, It's a micro.

 

If this wont fit inside, its a small.

 

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

I agree with the first two but the third will fit in a fifty cal can and as such is a regular. But that aside I am suddenly hungry.

[+shadowmib]

 

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

I agree with the first two but the third will fit in a fifty cal can and as such is a regular. But that aside I am suddenly hungry.

 

I should have included a two liter coke with the sammich.

Edited March 22, 2011 by shadowmib

[GOF and Bacall]

 

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

I agree with the first two but the third will fit in a fifty cal can and as such is a regular. But that aside I am suddenly hungry.

 

I should have included a two liter coke with the sammich.

 

Sure. But a beer would go better with that corned beef.

[knowschad]

And if this can fit inside?

 

[+roziecakes]

I would still call it a micro. I tend to round down on my sizes if I have any questions... some of the ones I have labeled as smalls I've seen similar containers listed as regular. I think it leads to less disappointment. I think that soda preforms are great micro containers though, I've not found many damp ones, they're usually pretty resistant to weather. Good choice!

[+Ecylram]

For the preform = small crowd, would anyone mind clarifying the dimensions of the PET preforms you'd call small?

 

The ones we use are longer than a film can is tall, they're maybe 3.5 inches or so (film can is, what, about 2 inches?) but the internal diameter is about a centimeter across, maybe slightly wider. You could fit a US dime in there, but I doubt you could fit a penny in there. I know you can fit US quarters in a film can and still have some room around the edges, my dad used to stash spare change in them for tolls.

 

I measured one of mine, it is 6 inches long and about 1" in diameter.

[GOF and Bacall]

And if this can fit inside?

 

 

Then I guess a split would do.

[GOF and Bacall]

I wish I had a film can handy. I am pretty sure it would have more volume than the preform I have in front of me. It holds about 1.4 ounces.

[+Ecylram]

Sounds like there is more than one size for preforms.

[+roziecakes]

Sounds like there is more than one size for preforms.

 

I think there is, depending on what size bottle they were originally intended to make? I could be wrong though, but just a guess.

[knowschad]

Sounds like there is more than one size for preforms.

Oh, yes. Preforms are just the raw material for PET bottles. There are many different sizes of PET bottles, so many different sizes of preforms.

 

Edited March 22, 2011 by knowschad

[+Ecylram]

Sounds like there is more than one size for preforms.

Oh, yes. Preforms are just the raw material for PET bottles. There are many different sizes of PET bottles, so many different sizes of preforms.

 

Thanks, what I have is the one on the right. I painted it flat black with the intent of putting it in an unlit location but...it just doesn't look family friendly.

 

Looks like there are preforms that can be classified as micros or smalls.

[Night_Hiker]

I list them as small's.. but the ones i use are alot bigger then the standard ones... just seems to long to be a micro

[GOF and Bacall]

Can't tell size from that picture. I haven't seen one out there that would hold more than a couple of ounces but I guess it is possible.

[GOF and Bacall]

I list them as small's.. but the ones i use are alot bigger then the standard ones... just seems to long to be a micro

 

Will it hold a sandwich?

 

One made from a standard sized slice of bread Knowschad. Not that thing from Barbie's kitchen.

[knowschad]

Sounds like there is more than one size for preforms.

Oh, yes. Preforms are just the raw material for PET bottles. There are many different sizes of PET bottles, so many different sizes of preforms.

 

Thanks, what I have is the one on the right. I painted it flat black with the intent of putting it in an unlit location but...it just doesn't look family friendly.

 

Looks like there are preforms that can be classified as micros or smalls.

 

Actually, the "small" one on the left is 36" tall.

[+JL_HSTRE]

(something along the lines of nano=BB, micro=small marble, small=golf ball, regular= baseball, large= 16" softball or bigger)

 

I really like that scale.

 

As most of us are unfamiliar with jumbo softballs, I would instead say large = football/soccerball.

[+Sins DS]

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

 

 

I agree with the first two but the third will fit in a fifty cal can and as such is a regular. But that aside I am suddenly hungry.

 

If that fits inside you, I'd guess you're a large.

 

Needs kraut.

[+hzoi]

If this WILL fit inside, its a large

 

The first two didn't make it past the net nanny here at work, but the last one...now that's my kind of sammich.