fair use and copyright decision

[Theotokos]

Here is a comparison. Lets say that I buy a bunch of knock off Chanel purses. I go and sell those purses at the flea market. The cops raid the place and confiscate those purses (I've seen news stories about this). I'm then out the money I paid for those purses. I knew they were knockoffs, so I am just as guilty as the person I bought them from. Even if I didn't know they were knockoffs, I'd still lose the purses.

 

I had no problems with you arguing with the others about copyrights and what you believe is right. But when you criticized those admiring the Jedi Mickey coin, I just found that hypocritical.

 

You did what you did, and you did what you felt you had to do. But just remember that when you are criticizing others.

 

My point exactly...thanks Joni. I too was merely trying to point out that we can't complain about copyright issues if we only want to adhere to them when they suit us. I don't want anyone to lose money and if selling your coins helps you out financially that's great. But to me...if you're going to argue for strict adherence to the copyright issue then you would have at the very least mentioned the infringement when selling the coins...now maybe you did I don't know that.

 

I guess I just don't understand how anyone can argue one side or the other unless they live it fully.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Theotokos

[RedShoesGirl]

Here is a comparison. Lets say that I buy a bunch of knock off Chanel purses. I go and sell those purses at the flea market. The cops raid the place and confiscate those purses (I've seen news stories about this). I'm then out the money I paid for those purses. I knew they were knockoffs, so I am just as guilty as the person I bought them from. Even if I didn't know they were knockoffs, I'd still lose the purses.

 

I had no problems with you arguing with the others about copyrights and what you believe is right. But when you criticized those admiring the Jedi Mickey coin, I just found that hypocritical.

 

You did what you did, and you did what you felt you had to do. But just remember that when you are criticizing others.

 

i don't believe i have said anything about the jedi coin. i looked at that thread and i am have not posted and i looked in this one and i don't see any posts from me about that coin.

 

i am not criticizing anyone, simply trying to keep the topic on track of what is and isn't appropriate when designing a coin. because some of you continue to dump on me for getting rid of my tranqs, i find that interesting. i believe i have explained myself sufficiently i don't feel the need to continue that part of the conversation. stick to the issue at hand.

[+MustangJoni]

and as we can tell from the other thread on the new mystery coin that combines both disney trademarks and those from star wars, very few in the geocoin community really care if a coin has trademark or copyrighted details on it, as long as it is cool looking or is a great mystery coin. i find that rather sad.

 

I would love for you to get back on topic also, but not while you are denying what has gotten people upset to begin with.

 

Without the above quoted post, I would never have posted in this thread.

[+pastor_b]

I am available to mediate...

[RedShoesGirl]

...

 

My point exactly...thanks Joni. I too was merely trying to point out that we can't complain about copyright issues if we only want to adhere to them when they suit us....

 

I guess I just don't understand how anyone can argue one side or the other unless they live it fully.

 

i live it fully everyday when i find my work used on blogs and other people's sites who think it is ok to lift my images off my flickr pages. i have said very clearly i am very conflicted on what the right course of action is in having to sell coins where i feel copyright was violated.

 

since i am not a designer, i don't have to figure out when to adhere to copyright when making a coin. how many designers weighing in on this thread pay attention to that.

 

again, this is not about what to do with coins when you feel copyright and especially trademarks have been infringed upon but, once again, is it ok to do so when making a geocoin? a commercial geocoin.

 

so far, most of those who design coins are more interested in grilling me than actually saying what they feel about infringement. why can we not stay on that topic?

[RedShoesGirl]

and as we can tell from the other thread on the new mystery coin that combines both disney trademarks and those from star wars, very few in the geocoin community really care if a coin has trademark or copyrighted details on it, as long as it is cool looking or is a great mystery coin. i find that rather sad.

 

I would love for you to get back on topic also, but not while you are denying what has gotten people upset to begin with.

 

Without the above quoted post, I would never have posted in this thread.

 

sorry, you are right, i did mention the new coin but without using the name which is what i was searching on.

 

in reading the other thread it is very obvious that people do NOT care about infringement. you were happy to get one in the mail. very cool for you.

 

people are upset because i have a handful of tranquility geocoins i feel i have to get rid of. they are upset i am trying to recoup some of my costs by selling them. i wish i could afford to just give them away to the dozens of people who say they want one. i can not. i have said, more than once, it is a conflict i have to deal with. so instead of jumping my tookus because there are issues, how about staying on topic!?

 

how about accepting my mea culpa and get on with the topic.

Edited April 3, 2011 by RedShoesGirl

[RedShoesGirl]

in case anyone has forgotten what the original topic was, it was about the ethics/legalties of using copyrighted and/or trademarked material in a commercial geocoin. it is not about redshoesgirl's moral dilemmas. and to keep on harping on those obfuscates the original purpose of the thread.

Edited April 3, 2011 by RedShoesGirl

[+MustangJoni]

and as we can tell from the other thread on the new mystery coin that combines both disney trademarks and those from star wars, very few in the geocoin community really care if a coin has trademark or copyrighted details on it, as long as it is cool looking or is a great mystery coin. i find that rather sad.

 

I would love for you to get back on topic also, but not while you are denying what has gotten people upset to begin with.

 

Without the above quoted post, I would never have posted in this thread.

 

sorry, you are right, i did mention the new coin but without using the name which is what i was searching on.

 

in reading the other thread it is very obvious that people do NOT care about infringement. you were happy to get one in the mail. very cool for you.

 

people are upset because i have a handful of tranquility geocoins i feel i have to get rid of. they are upset i am trying to recoup some of my costs by selling them. i wish i could afford to just give them away to the dozens of people who say they want one. i can not. i have said, more than once, it is a conflict i have to deal with. so instead of jumping my tookus because there are issues, how about staying on topic!?

 

how about accepting my mea culpa and get on with the topic.

 

Lara, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really not. But this subject goes along with the topic. If you purchase items that you feel have copyright issues, then you are encouraging it. If you then go and sell those items, you are just as guilty.

 

The copyright does not end when you buy it from the vendor. I've seen ebay end sales when a copyright infringement has been claimed. And the seller had nothing to do with the production of the coin.

 

While you are writing all this about designing coins with copyright issues, we shouldn't be selling them either. You sold 4 Tranqs in March of this year! Long after you had issues with the rights of the coins. I don't know if you bought them before or after you knew the issues, but I suspect you bought them after, because you sold you entire collection, and you stated that you had issues at that time with the copyright.

 

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

[+goosefraba1]

I Love this geocaching community... And rather than seeing members of it becoming upset/feelings hurt I would like to see this thread shut down or have bickerings settled. This is ridiculous and is starting to look like the caching forums. C'mon guys.... Please.

[+goosefraba1]

I meant coining community btw.

[+Eartha]

Topic, please. Copyright and fair use. Not who sold what, for what, and why.

[RedShoesGirl]

lost cause ...

Edited April 3, 2011 by RedShoesGirl

[RedShoesGirl]

Topic, please. Copyright and fair use. Not who sold what, for what, and why.

 

thank you.

[RedShoesGirl]

...

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

the thread doesn't make me uncomfortable. i explained pretty well, what i call my growing moral dilemma. it is about design ethics and infringements. you're a designer right? you should have some views on that subject?

[avroair]

Topic, please. Copyright and fair use. Not who sold what, for what, and why.

 

I think that intent makes a difference. People make homemade Star Wars movies, which is sanctioned: Star Wars Fan Movie Wiki As long as the movies or projects are not commercial and not made to profit, then they are encouraged. So something in this ilk I would place under the same category.

[RedShoesGirl]

Topic, please. Copyright and fair use. Not who sold what, for what, and why.

 

I think that intent makes a difference. People make homemade Star Wars movies, which is sanctioned: Star Wars Fan Movie Wiki As long as the movies or projects are not commercial and not made to profit, then they are encouraged. So something in this ilk I would place under the same category.

 

something in what ilk? commercial geocoins using star wars stuff or non-commercial coins? i think you are probably right about the non-commercial coins using star wars elements according to the wiki.

[+keewee]

Topic, please. Copyright and fair use. Not who sold what, for what, and why.

 

I think that intent makes a difference. People make homemade Star Wars movies, which is sanctioned: Star Wars Fan Movie Wiki As long as the movies or projects are not commercial and not made to profit, then they are encouraged. So something in this ilk I would place under the same category.

 

something in what ilk? commercial geocoins using star wars stuff or non-commercial coins? i think you are probably right about the non-commercial coins using star wars elements according to the wiki.

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum? And does it make a difference if it is being sold for pure personal profit or for charity? Wow - things start to get murky quickly!

 

Having just sold my lovely MD translucent for charity am I now guilty?

 

I see so many pathtags on ebay that are blatant ripoffs and are so obviously being produced and sold for commercial gain. They in no way represent a person, event or such. I'm really glad that we don't (yet?) have that issue with geocoins. The issues we do have with it are relatively minor compared to what is happening with pathtags, IMO. But I could be wrong - most cases where it has occurred with geocoins haven't been truly commercial, they've either been mystery coins (which, yes, some people do profit from but [hopefully] by-and-large it is gifting or trading happening) and some team/individual geocoins which represent the geocachers love/affinity for that item - and is hopefully not being done for profit. I have very mixed feelings about the latter and am unsure where I stand. I don't like seeing blatant commercial rip offs for profit, but if it isn't for profit then... well...

[RedShoesGirl]

...

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum? And does it make a difference if it is being sold for pure personal profit or for charity? Wow - things start to get murky quickly! ...

 

for sure!

[+MustangJoni]

...

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

the thread doesn't make me uncomfortable. i explained pretty well, what i call my growing moral dilemma. it is about design ethics and infringements. you're a designer right? you should have some views on that subject?

 

I can't advise others to what is legal and what isn't. I am not a lawyer.

 

The ethics don't end at design. I think liability also goes to manufacturers and subsequent sellers. Do we really think the designer is the only one guilty when a coin with copyright issues comes out?

[RedShoesGirl]

...

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

the thread doesn't make me uncomfortable. i explained pretty well, what i call my growing moral dilemma. it is about design ethics and infringements. you're a designer right? you should have some views on that subject?

 

I can't advise others to what is legal and what isn't. I am not a lawyer.

 

The ethics don't end at design. I think liability also goes to manufacturers and subsequent sellers. Do we really think the designer is the only one guilty when a coin with copyright issues comes out?

 

yes, but what do YOU think about using copyright/trademark details in your designs.

[+MustangJoni]

...

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

the thread doesn't make me uncomfortable. i explained pretty well, what i call my growing moral dilemma. it is about design ethics and infringements. you're a designer right? you should have some views on that subject?

 

I can't advise others to what is legal and what isn't. I am not a lawyer.

 

The ethics don't end at design. I think liability also goes to manufacturers and subsequent sellers. Do we really think the designer is the only one guilty when a coin with copyright issues comes out?

 

yes, but what do YOU think about using copyright/trademark details in your designs.

 

I'm not even going to go there. Why? Because I love my Mickey Diver. I love my Jedi Mickey. I even love my Goofy coin. While none of my personal tags have any licensed figures, I've traded for them.

 

So I don't want to come off as a hypocrite. I do what I do, and if I have to answer for it later, I'll deal with it.

[RedShoesGirl]

...

So, I feel we are 100% on topic. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

the thread doesn't make me uncomfortable. i explained pretty well, what i call my growing moral dilemma. it is about design ethics and infringements. you're a designer right? you should have some views on that subject?

 

I can't advise others to what is legal and what isn't. I am not a lawyer.

 

The ethics don't end at design. I think liability also goes to manufacturers and subsequent sellers. Do we really think the designer is the only one guilty when a coin with copyright issues comes out?

 

yes, but what do YOU think about using copyright/trademark details in your designs.

 

I'm not even going to go there. Why? Because I love my Mickey Diver. I love my Jedi Mickey. I even love my Goofy coin. While none of my personal tags have any licensed figures, I've traded for them.

 

So I don't want to come off as a hypocrite. I do what I do, and if I have to answer for it later, I'll deal with it.

 

fair enough.

Edited April 4, 2011 by RedShoesGirl

[+Team kizb]

...

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum? And does it make a difference if it is being sold for pure personal profit or for charity? Wow - things start to get murky quickly! ...

 

for sure!

 

So a Geocoin is a non-commercial product now?

[+ECplus3]

...

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum? And does it make a difference if it is being sold for pure personal profit or for charity? Wow - things start to get murky quickly! ...

 

for sure!

 

So a Geocoin is a non-commercial product now?

 

I think the argument being made here is that a mystery coin is not made to make money, and is therefore non-commercial and doesn't violate copyright. However, this is false. It doesn't matter whether you plan to make money off of the product. Using someone else's work violates their copyright regardless of the financial gain or loss of either party.

[+keewee]

...

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum? And does it make a difference if it is being sold for pure personal profit or for charity? Wow - things start to get murky quickly! ...

 

for sure!

 

So a Geocoin is a non-commercial product now?

 

I think the argument being made here is that a mystery coin is not made to make money, and is therefore non-commercial and doesn't violate copyright. However, this is false. It doesn't matter whether you plan to make money off of the product. Using someone else's work violates their copyright regardless of the financial gain or loss of either party.

 

That was indeed the argument - Mystery Geocoins and Geocoins that are sold at a break even price or that make a loss.

[avroair]

I think the argument being made here is that a mystery coin is not made to make money, and is therefore non-commercial and doesn't violate copyright. However, this is false. It doesn't matter whether you plan to make money off of the product. Using someone else's work violates their copyright regardless of the financial gain or loss of either party.

 

Unless, for instance, the case of Star Wars where non-commercial fan art is encouraged. In that case the specifics trump the general.

 

So a Geocoin is a non-commercial product now?

Back in the day geocoins were made to put into caches... I would hardly call those commercial.

 

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum?

 

As I found out, there is no conundrum at all. I sold a GeoSmurfz coin on ebay, it was something I bought from the designer. Ebay shut down the auction after the Smurf foundation blackballed my listing. I asked a copyright lawyer since I figured I wasn't the one who manufactured or designed the coin and he said, that doesn't matter. I was distributing and selling a bootlegged copy for profit. Buying a copyrighted coin then selling it, doesn't give you immunity since I was now benefiting from it. The tranquilities would probably fall under that same category if it ever came to that.

 

Basically, it's seller beware.

[+keewee]

Non-commercial (geocoin) is fine and good, but then problem arises with the very same coin as soon as a receiver of one chooses to sell it on ebay. How does one get around the conundrum?

 

As I found out, there is no conundrum at all. I sold a GeoSmurfz coin on ebay, it was something I bought from the designer. Ebay shut down the auction after the Smurf foundation blackballed my listing. I asked a copyright lawyer since I figured I wasn't the one who manufactured or designed the coin and he said, that doesn't matter. I was distributing and selling a bootlegged copy for profit. Buying a copyrighted coin then selling it, doesn't give you immunity since I was now benefiting from it. The tranquilities would probably fall under that same category if it ever came to that.

 

Basically, it's seller beware.

 

Ah, so to go on and resell an item (in public) does immediately run afoul of copyright laws.

 

So I shouldn't try and sell my set of Geosmurf coins on eBay then! (Or if I do, call them something else so that their search doesn't pick it up )

[RedShoesGirl]

...

Back in the day geocoins were made to put into caches... I would hardly call those commercial....

 

back in the day isn't now where most of the geocoins out there are sold for profit. if there was no profit, no matter how small, folks wouldn't be making and selling geocoins, so now most are commercial.

[Theotokos]

Edited to remove comments....I'll keep it to myself

Edited April 5, 2011 by Theotokos

[+farrtom]

So can you put a quote on a coin if you reference the author? What if it is a famous saying and not from a book/movie/music?

[RedShoesGirl]

...

Back in the day geocoins were made to put into caches... I would hardly call those commercial....

 

back in the day isn't now where most of the geocoins out there are sold for profit. if there was no profit, no matter how small, folks wouldn't be making and selling geocoins, so now most are commercial.

 

i suppose i should qualify this a bit. i am sure there are folks that want to make a geocoin and are just trying to make back their investment, so is that a commercial geocoin?

 

at what point does a coin become commercial. i have no idea.

[+Chokecherry]

...

Back in the day geocoins were made to put into caches... I would hardly call those commercial....

 

back in the day isn't now where most of the geocoins out there are sold for profit. if there was no profit, no matter how small, folks wouldn't be making and selling geocoins, so now most are commercial.

 

i suppose i should qualify this a bit. i am sure there are folks that want to make a geocoin and are just trying to make back their investment, so is that a commercial geocoin?

 

at what point does a coin become commercial. i have no idea.

 

The minute a dollar amount is attached to the coin. I can knock off paintings. The minute I sell one of those paintings I knocked off even to make back my supply cost I have entered into a commercial business exchange. Not a very good one as I won't make a profit but it's still commercial.

[avroair]

at what point does a coin become commercial. i have no idea.

 

As soon as it is sold by the owner it's commercial, profit has nothing to do with it, so even if you are selling it for a loss or to break even, it is still considered commercial. These are the guidelines that have been set forth in the forums 'back in the day.' Selling a coin for charity also makes it commercial, BUT the sentiment is different to some coiners.

 

back in the day isn't now where most of the geocoins out there are sold for profit. if there was no profit, no matter how small, folks wouldn't be making and selling geocoins, so now most are commercial.

 

I was responding to the quote below and putting a bit of a historical perspective on geocoins. Most geocoins have always been commercial all the way back to the 2nd trackable on GC.com ever: USA Geocoin 2003. Heck, the Canada 2002, Oregon 2003, Greenman, Joy of Caching, Calgary 2003, Texas 2003 were all sold. But my point is that there are numerous examples of both commercial and non-commercial coins.

 

So a Geocoin is a non-commercial product now?

[RedShoesGirl]

thanks mark.

[+goosefraba1]

Just thought that RSG would enjoy this.... If she's still active.

 

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1522-hangover-ii-tattoo-lawsuit-warner-bros-will-alter-dvds-if-case-doesnt-settle-soon-exclusive