Rock Survey Mark?

[MtnHermit]

I took this photo, Nuvi 295W, of an 1880's survey mark and I was hoping someone here could explain the markings.

 

 

You can see my SAK in the cross, but more interesting to me are the four marks in the rock to the left of the cross. What do they mean?

 

This screenshot places the mark in map context:

 

 

Thanks for any input.

[+LSUFan]

I took this photo, Nuvi 295W, of an 1880's survey mark and I was hoping someone here could explain the markings.

 

You can see my SAK in the cross, but more interesting to me are the four marks in the rock to the left of the cross. What do they mean?

 

This screenshot places the mark in map context:

 

 

Thanks for any input.

 

MtnHermit, if you know the chiseled cross is from the 1880's, I am assuming you have read the datasheet or something on it. Do you have the PID for this benchmark? Also the screenshot you show, just shows that you are in the San Isabel National Forest (I'm assuming). The actual coordinates would be more helpful.

[CallawayMT]

I took this photo, Nuvi 295W, of an 1880's survey mark and I was hoping someone here could explain the markings.

 

 

You can see my SAK in the cross, but more interesting to me are the four marks in the rock to the left of the cross. What do they mean?

 

This screenshot places the mark in map context:

 

 

Thanks for any input.

 

Mtnhermit,

 

It appears from your Nuvi image that you may have been near a General Land Office(GLO) Public Land Survey System(PLSS) corner. Your photo is kind of tough to see and interpret as to which way is up, but I can see at least 4 chisel marks, maybe 5; these indicate to the finder that they are either 4 or 5 miles west from a range line or 4 or 5 miles north from a township line. The chisel marks would be on the west side or north side of the stone to indicate which direction the line was run toward. There would have been similar marks on one other side of the stone with from 1 to 6 marks.

 

So what you found was a land survey boundary monument.

 

Kurt

[southpawaz]

Here's an example of what Kurt describes. One that I've found is pictured below. It is on the east boundary line of the township so it has hashes chiseled indicating 2 miles to the north township line and 4 miles to the south township line. Interior corners would typically have the hashes indicating distance to the south and east lines.

 

Edited March 18, 2011 by southpawaz

[MtnHermit]

I took this photo, Nuvi 295W, of an 1880's survey mark and I was hoping someone here could explain the markings.

 

You can see my SAK in the cross, but more interesting to me are the four marks in the rock to the left of the cross. What do they mean?

 

This screenshot places the mark in map context:

 

 

Thanks for any input.

 

MtnHermit, if you know the chiseled cross is from the 1880's, I am assuming you have read the datasheet or something on it. Do you have the PID for this benchmark? Also the screenshot you show, just shows that you are in the San Isabel National Forest (I'm assuming). The actual coordinates would be more helpful.

It's actually the camera icon that's relevant, not the Nuvi cursor. The coordinates should be in the EXIF of the Geotagged photo. I inferred the 1880's from other private land nearby, I do not have any paperwork.

 

Thanks for your reply.

[MtnHermit]

 

Mtnhermit,

 

It appears from your Nuvi image that you may have been near a General Land Office(GLO) Public Land Survey System(PLSS) corner. Your photo is kind of tough to see and interpret as to which way is up, but I can see at least 4 chisel marks, maybe 5; these indicate to the finder that they are either 4 or 5 miles west from a range line or 4 or 5 miles north from a township line. The chisel marks would be on the west side or north side of the stone to indicate which direction the line was run toward. There would have been similar marks on one other side of the stone with from 1 to 6 marks.

 

So what you found was a land survey boundary monument.

 

Kurt

That's very interesting. I was originally taken to that spot by the land owner of the 1/4 - 1/4 section, 40 acres (lower left) about a decade ago. He claimed that mark was his NE corner property mark. Based on your comments, that claim is suspect. It would seem that that a property corner would not necessarily fall on a GLO PLSS?

 

More info: the four marks to the left are east of the cross. Also, if you've ever used the camera in a Nuvifone, you're happy to get anything, decent camera, terrible screen for composing.

 

Kurt, thanks for all the info.

[tosborn]

Based on your comments, that claim is suspect. It would seem that that a property corner would not necessarily fall on a GLO PLSS?

 

The General Land Office Public Land Survey System (GLO PLSS) was all about marking corners so that the public lands could be homesteaded or sold into private property. Entrymen took possession based upon the PLSS corners. If the landowner you referred to owned the 40 acre quarter-quarter immediately to the southwest of this corner, then it surely was his NE property corner. If he only owned the next quarter-quarter to west, then he was probably mistaken.

Edited March 18, 2011 by tosborn

[MtnHermit]

Based on your comments, that claim is suspect. It would seem that that a property corner would not necessarily fall on a GLO PLSS?

The General Land Office Public Land Survey System (GLO PLSS) was all about marking corners so that the public lands could be homesteaded or sold into private property. Entrymen took possession based upon the PLSS corners. If the landowner you referred to owned the 40 acre quarter-quarter immediately to the southwest of this corner, then it surely was his NE property corner. If he only owned the next quarter-quarter to west, then he was probably mistaken.

Excellent information. You can see by this screenshot:

 

 

the location of the two private parcels (white) and the public lands (green:USFS, orange:BLM) and the camera icon is the location of the GLO PLSS from the photo. The public land information, the map, then is slightly in error, but still very close.

 

I'll have to be on the lookout for more GLO PLSS, lot of exposed rock near where I live. The maps will get me close, treasure hunt from there.

 

I've learned a lot, thanks to all.

[kayakbird]

Thanks for any input.

 

The actual coordinates would be more helpful.

 

MtnHermit,

 

I take it that the Lat/Long will remain a deep, dark secret - at least until someone matches up the terrain, road and ownership blocks. kayakbird

[MtnHermit]

I take it that the Lat/Long will remain a deep, dark secret - at least until someone matches up the terrain, road and ownership blocks. kayakbird

Not at all, from my previous post:

 

It's actually the camera icon that's relevant, not the Nuvi cursor. The coordinates should be in the EXIF of the Geotagged photo. I inferred the 1880's from other private land nearby, I do not have any paperwork.

Although it remains a mystery to my why the coordinates matter. In my OP I was interested in the interpretation of the markings, for which I expressed considerable gratitude for all the insights I received.

[kayakbird]

D

----EXIF of the Geotagged photo.

 

OK, In my humble non-IT ignorance, I'll admit that I have no concept what 'EXIF of the Geotagged photo' means or where to go to retrieve it. MEL

[MtnHermit]

D

----EXIF of the Geotagged photo.

OK, In my humble non-IT ignorance, I'll admit that I have no concept what 'EXIF of the Geotagged photo' means or where to go to retrieve it. MEL

The body of knowledge is to large to know it all. Before this thread I knew nothing about survey marks, now I know enough to want to know more. Forums are wonderful, people sharing knowledge.

 

EXIF = Exchangeable Image File Format, all digital photos have one of these, stores thing like Camera make and model, date, time, shutter speed, etc. In the case of a geotagged photo, the coordinates. More than you ever wanted to know.

 

Google EXIF, download a reader, grab the photo at the top of this thread, viola you'll be able to read the data.

 

I don't know the coordinates, but in order to position that camera icon on the map, the coordinates had to be in the photo somewhere.

[CallawayMT]

D

----EXIF of the Geotagged photo.

OK, In my humble non-IT ignorance, I'll admit that I have no concept what 'EXIF of the Geotagged photo' means or where to go to retrieve it. MEL

The body of knowledge is to large to know it all. Before this thread I knew nothing about survey marks, now I know enough to want to know more. Forums are wonderful, people sharing knowledge.

 

EXIF = Exchangeable Image File Format, all digital photos have one of these, stores thing like Camera make and model, date, time, shutter speed, etc. In the case of a geotagged photo, the coordinates. More than you ever wanted to know.

 

Google EXIF, download a reader, grab the photo at the top of this thread, viola you'll be able to read the data.

 

I don't know the coordinates, but in order to position that camera icon on the map, the coordinates had to be in the photo somewhere.

Do the photos hang onto the coordinates when uploaded to a new location? I tried to find the properties for your photo, but can't seem to find any. If you can find them and list them for us; we could probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know about that stone.

 

Kurt

[Wintertime]

Do the photos hang onto the coordinates when uploaded to a new location?

Nope. Or at least, not that I've ever seen.

 

I just downloaded that photo directly from rockymountains.net, and the EXIF data didn't show up even then. I imagine it was stripped out when the photo was first uploaded.

 

Patty

[+LSUFan]

It's actually the camera icon that's relevant, not the Nuvi cursor. The coordinates should be in the EXIF of the Geotagged photo. I inferred the 1880's from other private land nearby, I do not have any paperwork.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

The reason I (and others) have asked for the coordinates, is for us to look in the ngs database and see if this chiseled cross is an actual bluebooked benchmark. Chiseled crosses are always kinda a fascinating study in the historical evolution of benchmarks (which I believe everyone here is a student of) You mention something from the 1800's and our ears are going to perk up. The sleuth in us is going to want to know all about it and the surrounding area. If we knew where this chiseled cross was actually located, it is as CallawayMT said, there might be a lot more info that can be gleaned about this.............even though your original question has been answered.

 

Your chiseled cross could be an actual benchmark, or could be referred to from other nearby benchmarks in their datasheets. I think we all like doing the detective work to see the history of stuff like this.....and sharing it with each other. Benchmarkers are a curious animal by nature.

 

I did try to see if I could get the coordinates from the EXIF on the photo, and like Patty, I couldn't (at least not with the exif viewer I am using in Firefox). That in itself got my curiosity up, and I saw on a gc.com request list, where others were wanting gc.com to implement the ability to strip the exif from uploaded photos on gc.com. That was interesting, so I went and looked at my last benchmark photo I uploaded on gc.com, and sure enough the exif is there on the pic stored on gc.com. I saved a screenshot of it below.

 

http://img.geocaching.com/cache/4b0c3809-d2d8-4c7d-9473-cb35aaa42411.jpg

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/75775-geocaching-com/suggestions/1398917-remove-exif-tags-containing-coordinates-from-uploa

 

As I did more internet research on the exif data, it does appear that some sites strip this info from the uploaded photos, while others don't. Thanks to your post here, I was able to learn that.

Edited March 19, 2011 by LSUFan

[MtnHermit]

Do the photos hang onto the coordinates when uploaded to a new location? I tried to find the properties for your photo, but can't seem to find any. If you can find them and list them for us; we could probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know about that stone.

 

Kurt

I've already learned much more than I'd hoped from an OT thread. Apparently the EXIF is NOT retained, I thought it was. The NuviFone will not display the coordinates, you must either email the pic as an attachement or use good old USB to save the file to your HDD.

 

I used Jeffrey's Exif Viewer to view the EXIF. It not only provided the EXIF but displayed the photo and a Google Earth view of the location, pretty slick.

 

Here's Jeffery's results: GPS-encoded location: 38° 52' 59"N, 106° 7' 39"W

 

This is turning into quite the thread.

 

Thanks again.

[CallawayMT]

Do the photos hang onto the coordinates when uploaded to a new location? I tried to find the properties for your photo, but can't seem to find any. If you can find them and list them for us; we could probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know about that stone.

 

Kurt

I've already learned much more than I'd hoped from an OT thread. Apparently the EXIF is NOT retained, I thought it was. The NuviFone will not display the coordinates, you must either email the pic as an attachement or use good old USB to save the file to your HDD.

 

I used Jeffrey's Exif Viewer to view the EXIF. It not only provided the EXIF but displayed the photo and a Google Earth view of the location, pretty slick.

 

Here's Jeffery's results: GPS-encoded location: 38° 52' 59"N, 106° 7' 39"W

 

This is turning into quite the thread.

 

Thanks again.

As I suspected this is a PLSS section corner. Specifically it is the corner for sections 28, 29, 32 & 33 of Township 13 South, Range 78 West of the Sixth Principal Meridian.

 

This really is turning out even better than I have seen. This township was originally surveyed in 1882, but on the 1882 plat there is a note that this was a fraudulent survey written by the commissioner dated Dec. 17, 1883 and the survey was suspended Dec. 12, 1883.

 

This particular corner was then placed in the survey of 1888 which was a partial survey of the township and then also resurveyed in 1890 on an adjacent portion of another partial survey for the township, visited again in 1917 on another resurvey and then once again in 1958 for a resurvey of section 33.

 

This was quite a contentious township for surveys. You found a doozy of a corner.

 

Nice work Mtnhermit!

[MtnHermit]

This particular corner was then placed in the survey of 1888 which was a partial survey of the township and then also resurveyed in 1890 on an adjacent portion of another partial survey for the township, visited again in 1917 on another resurvey and then once again in 1958 for a resurvey of section 33.

 

This was quite a contentious township for surveys. You found a doozy of a corner.

 

Nice work Mtnhermit!

 

Sorry, I'm section illiterate. Could you write the four sections as numbers as they would appear on a map? Like this:

32,33

28,29

If that is the correct placement, then the private parcel in the upper-right, Section 33, was involved in a land swap before I moved to the county, it has never been in private hands in the decade plus I've live in the county, it belongs to the USFS. So that portion of the map is incorrect.

 

Thanks for the research, can that data be found online?

[MtnHermit]

As I suspected this is a PLSS section corner. Specifically it is the corner for sections 28, 29, 32 & 33 of Township 13 South, Range 78 West of the Sixth Principal Meridian.

Do the four mark on the rock have more meaning given what you've learned? That was my OP. As a refresher, the four marks are east of the cross.

 

[CallawayMT]

As I suspected this is a PLSS section corner. Specifically it is the corner for sections 28, 29, 32 & 33 of Township 13 South, Range 78 West of the Sixth Principal Meridian.

Do the four mark on the rock have more meaning given what you've learned? That was my OP. As a refresher, the four marks are east of the cross.

 

 

The sections are 28 in NE, 29 in NW, 32 in SW and 33 in SE for section numbering.

 

29 28

32 33

 

Sometimes the stones get turned, but this original stone would have had 4 hash marks on the east and one hash mark on the south edge indicating they are 4 miles from the east range line and one mile north from the south township line. I mixed these up in my earlier post. That way if somebody finds a stone they know where they are in a township. At the half mile intervals, you would find a stone with a 1/4 chiseled on the west or north side of the stone; which will only tell you if you have a 1/4 corner on an east-west line or north-south line for a section.

 

You can go to this link:GLO Records Research and enter the state, township, range(make sure you put in west and south for the quadrants) and principal meridian and you will get a listing of the original surveys along with pictures of the plats. Colorado does not have their survey notes associated with the plats, so you don't get to see a lot of the original information for lines, monuments and bearing objects.

 

Kurt

Edited March 19, 2011 by CallawayMT

[+Holtie22]

Here's Jeffery's results: GPS-encoded location: 38° 52' 59"N, 106° 7' 39"W

 

This is turning into quite the thread.

 

Thanks again.

 

It certainly is! - but then, this forum does tend to generate some interesting discussions.

This looks like an interesting part of Colorado - just north of Buena Vista. I looked at pictures of Elephant Rock in Google Earth.

 

 

From the coordinates you posted it is evident that you found the section corner monument common to sections 29, 28, 32 & 33. (circled on map) I didn't get the Township #, but it is Range 78 West. This marks the NE corner of the property you mentioned: the NE 1/4 of the NE 1/4 of Section 32. Since this corner is four miles west of the Range Line, and one mile north of the Township Line, you could expect to find another chiseled mark in addition to the four depicted. It looks like the quarter-corner between sections 29 and 32, which is 1/2 mile west of the corner you found, is located close to the road you would have used to access this property. (It is labeled 8350 on the map - the elevation of the marker).

 

Sorry for the redundant info - it took me a long time to post (had to bathe the dog!)

Edited March 19, 2011 by Holtie22

[MtnHermit]

The sections are 28 in NE, 29 in NW, 32 in SW and 33 in SE for section numbering.

 

29 28

32 33

 

Sometimes the stones get turned, but this original stone would have had 4 hash marks on the east and one hash mark on the south edge indicating they are 4 miles from the east range line and one mile north from the south township line. I mixed these up in my earlier post. That way if somebody finds a stone they know where they are in a township. At the half mile intervals, you would find a stone with a 1/4 chiseled on the west or north side of the stone; which will only tell you if you have a 1/4 corner on an east-west line or north-south line for a section.

Here's the original photo, I don't see/remember a south mark.

 

 

No turning that "stone", at least 5' on a side and that's the part exposed. That fellow hasn't moved in a million years and unlikely to move in the next million. Here's a picture of a nearby "stone" I took in January, to give you a better sense of the geology:

 

 

BTW, the EXIF was no doubt stripped by Photoshop when I cropped the original.

 

Bunch of fun going to Survey 101.

 

Thanks

[MtnHermit]

It certainly is! - but then, this forum does tend to generate some interesting discussions.

This looks like an interesting part of Colorado - just north of Buena Vista. I looked at pictures of Elephant Rock in Google Earth.

 

 

You nailed it!!! Elephant Rock is where the tourist go, to pedestrian for me.

 

Here's a photo from your topo, lower-right:

 

Sorry for the redundant info - it took me a long time to post

I do that all the time.

 

(had to bathe the dog!)

Never done that, he's only eleven and hates water, unless its solid, white and powdery.

 

Thanks

[kayakbird]

---- Sorry, I'm section illiterate. ------

 

MtnHermit,

 

Thanks for providing the L/L of that unique section corner. Wish that I had know about it last 31 Oct when I logged JL0058 on the east end of the Arkansas River bridge.

 

The below link has some good diagrams on the layout of a township and the breakdown of the portions less than a full section.

 

http://www.landprints.com/LpRectangularSurveySystem.htm

 

What is know as the "Legal Land Description" for this parcel would read like this: NE 1/4 NE 1/4 Sec 32 T13S R78W 6th PM. Google that term; and in your part of the country you might want to brush up on 'Homestead Entry Survey' (HES) also.

 

kayakbird

[MtnHermit]

Thanks for providing the L/L of that unique section corner. Wish that I had know about it last 31 Oct when I logged JL0058 on the east end of the Arkansas River bridge.

I crossed that bridge on Tue., I'd never stop for that BM, too close to a highway.

 

In any case, a purer form of geocaching from my perspective, rather than the hide and seek game. If you haven't yet gotten this one:

 

 

then a must add. This was another stumble upon for me. Spectacular not only for being on the lip of the canyon, put even more so for the lack of tourist. Never seen another person but have scattered a few elk.

 

I may go there in a few weeks, getting the itch.

[kayakbird]

 

 

---a must add. ----

 

 

MtnHermit,

 

How many more of these interesting ones do you have sandbagged? Entered 'CANYON' in my newly acquired GSAK file for Arizona and none of the four hits were anywhere close to your screen coordinates, so I entered them into DeLorme (reading your lat as 36 00.843 which got me in range to see a map flag for GP0514 so I scrolled down through the current DATASHEET in GSAK and discover that they are one and the same! A stamped name that is different than the DESIGNATION is usually a red flag. The NGS [RECOVERY NOTE BY GEOCACHING 2006 (SWK)] and GEOCACHE log by bvrballs nicely clears up the mystery. kayakbird

 

GP0514

 

[kayakbird]

Delete Duplicate!!

Edited March 20, 2011 by kayakbird

[MtnHermit]

How many more of these interesting ones do you have sandbagged?

Does this count?

[kayakbird]

Does this count?

 

Yep. If I could pack enough O2 to get there, I would sure do the recovery. (MEL)