Tbs dissappearing out of locked cache unknown log signings

[+_Shaddow_]

Perhaps you missed it with all the posts so I'll reiterate...

 

It will take an incredible amount of patience and encouragement in his direction to do the right thing. I can only speak for myself and say I don't have the level it takes to do that alone.

 

Don't know where you're getting the idea I know so much. I just know enough what doesn't motivate him. Your action IMO is a shot in the foot and you seemed to have reasoned so in your previous post but with a backhanded swipe at who is responsisble for it. I refuse to accept your need for me to be responsible for another man's actions, including yours.

 

Because you said that you do.

For one "I actually know the guy better than you want to believe I do." "He's always been of a mind to do things his way. He's a nice guy in all respects except when he gains an obsession with something and then he can't let it go to my chagrin at times" for another.

 

We know your opinions, restating them doesn't make them any more factual or accurate.

 

Nothing backhanded, everything I say is up front.

 

For someone that claims to not want to be responsible for another's actions you are spending a significant amount of energy trying to influence mine.

 

I am curious though, if you have no responsibly and don't know enough to work on a solution, why are you so driven to continue this conversation? If it's just to voice your opinion about my actions then you've made those known several times over now and there is no need to continue to repeat yourself.

[+B+L]

TL and I have no more responsibility than you or any other cacher to do what we can to try to get this long standing problem resolved. Quite a few people have attempted to influence the mindset of the errant cacher without success. Deleting logs won't help.

This "nice young man" has been preying on the local geocaching community for years. It would have been nice to have been warned about him before we too became his victims. The dollar amount of his inventory is more than enough to get the police involved. Unfortunately, that is where we appear to be headed, assuming that the community is willing to see this guy get some help. If not, can we at least make sure we publicize the problem widely?

 

We see that at least one cacher managed to get their coins returned in person. That must be an interesting story.

[+_Shaddow_]

You and WRASTRO have taken some responsibility here to deal with it. Either you two or GC take it further or I'm left to do what's within my power. That's extremely limited, deleting his log is all I've got.

No. I've done what I could when I could and I said I couldn't deal with this alone. Brushing your hands and saying deleting logs is all you got isn't enough. It takes a mindset to change and positive action to move forward by everyone. It doesn't lay on the responsility of one or two people.

TL and I have no more responsibility than you or any other cacher to do what we can to try to get this long standing problem resolved. Quite a few people have attempted to influence the mindset of the errant cacher without success. Deleting logs won't help.

 

Your continuing to try to influence my actions indicates that you claim more responsibility in finding a solution.

 

Re the lack of success; obviously some better or more extreme ideas are needed...

 

While I would like to influence his mindset I hold no false hopes of doing so. I am, though, going to clearly send a message to him with my log deletion that you can't have your way with my property and still get everything you want out of the deal

[+TotemLake]

Perhaps you missed it with all the posts so I'll reiterate...

 

It will take an incredible amount of patience and encouragement in his direction to do the right thing. I can only speak for myself and say I don't have the level it takes to do that alone.

 

Don't know where you're getting the idea I know so much. I just know enough what doesn't motivate him. Your action IMO is a shot in the foot and you seemed to have reasoned so in your previous post but with a backhanded swipe at who is responsisble for it. I refuse to accept your need for me to be responsible for another man's actions, including yours.

 

Because you said that you do.

For one "I actually know the guy better than you want to believe I do." "He's always been of a mind to do things his way. He's a nice guy in all respects except when he gains an obsession with something and then he can't let it go to my chagrin at times" for another.

 

We know your opinions, restating them doesn't make them any more factual or accurate.

 

Nothing backhanded, everything I say is up front.

 

For someone that claims to not want to be responsible for another's actions you are spending a significant amount of energy trying to influence mine.

 

I am curious though, if you have no responsibly and don't know enough to work on a solution, why are you so driven to continue this conversation? If it's just to voice your opinion about my actions then you've made those known several times over now and there is no need to continue to repeat yourself.

Because there is more than one side to a situation. You're welcome to your opinion of what may or may not work. I should be allowed the same courtesy but that's not your mindset. I should just shut my mouth and back out. Right? Like I said, I know enough what doesn't motivate him. IF I did know what motivated him, you'll be the first to hear it. It's not that I'm trying to influence your actions, I'm just questioning the reality of the presumed success you're going to have. My knowledge and opinion about what won't work is based on historical facts already in place about this. Yours isn't.

 

B+L, I hadn't heard of the extent of this until early last year. By then, folks in the background had already been working at resolution. When does one start making a decision and take a chance at wrecking the negotiations?

 

edited to clarify an ambiguous statement

Edited April 25, 2011 by TotemLake

[+_Shaddow_]

Perhaps you missed it with all the posts so I'll reiterate...

 

It will take an incredible amount of patience and encouragement in his direction to do the right thing. I can only speak for myself and say I don't have the level it takes to do that alone.

 

Don't know where you're getting the idea I know so much. I just know enough what doesn't motivate him. Your action IMO is a shot in the foot and you seemed to have reasoned so in your previous post but with a backhanded swipe at who is responsisble for it. I refuse to accept your need for me to be responsible for another man's actions, including yours.

 

Because you said that you do.

For one "I actually know the guy better than you want to believe I do." "He's always been of a mind to do things his way. He's a nice guy in all respects except when he gains an obsession with something and then he can't let it go to my chagrin at times" for another.

 

We know your opinions, restating them doesn't make them any more factual or accurate.

 

Nothing backhanded, everything I say is up front.

 

For someone that claims to not want to be responsible for another's actions you are spending a significant amount of energy trying to influence mine.

 

I am curious though, if you have no responsibly and don't know enough to work on a solution, why are you so driven to continue this conversation? If it's just to voice your opinion about my actions then you've made those known several times over now and there is no need to continue to repeat yourself.

Because there is more than one side to a situation. You're welcome to your opinion of what may or may not work. I should be allowed the same courtesy but that's not your mindset. I should just shut my mouth and back out. Right? Like I said, I know enough what doesn't motivate him. IF I did know what motivated him, you'll be the first to hear it. It's not that I'm trying to influence your actions, I'm just questioning the reality of the presumed success you're going to have. My knowledge and opinion is based on historical facts already in place about this. Yours isn't.

 

B+L, I hadn't heard of the extent of this until early last year. By then, folks in the background had already been working at resolution. When does one start making a decision and take a chance at wrecking the negotiations?

 

"My knowledge and opinion is based on historical facts already in place about this. Yours isn't." + "Don't know where you're getting the idea I know so much." etc =

 

You've had your say many times over and I heard you. If it's true, as you just stated, that you don't want more then drop it.

 

I agree with B+L, we should be informed about any actions or efforts taking place about returning OUR trackables.

[+B+L]

B+L, I hadn't heard of the extent of this until early last year. By then, folks in the background had already been working at resolution. When does one start making a decision and take a chance at wrecking the negotiations?

A short look at his logs indicates the extent of the problem. It has been a problem since the very beginning. Even to a lay person, negotiations seem pretty unlikely be successful. Even so, in our opinion there could have and should have been general warnings in the foreground. Maybe we're wrong, but we don't see a positive resolution happening without direct intervention.

 

 

[+WRASTRO]

You and WRASTRO have taken some responsibility here to deal with it. Either you two or GC take it further or I'm left to do what's within my power. That's extremely limited, deleting his log is all I've got.

No. I've done what I could when I could and I said I couldn't deal with this alone. Brushing your hands and saying deleting logs is all you got isn't enough. It takes a mindset to change and positive action to move forward by everyone. It doesn't lay on the responsility of one or two people.

TL and I have no more responsibility than you or any other cacher to do what we can to try to get this long standing problem resolved. Quite a few people have attempted to influence the mindset of the errant cacher without success. Deleting logs won't help.

 

Your continuing to try to influence my actions indicates that you claim more responsibility in finding a solution.

 

Re the lack of success; obviously some better or more extreme ideas are needed...

 

While I would like to influence his mindset I hold no false hopes of doing so. I am, though, going to clearly send a message to him with my log deletion that you can't have your way with my property and still get everything you want out of the deal

I am only sharing my opinion. I claim no responsibility in finding a solution. I am simply sharing my opinion that I personally believe your course of action is not productive. Am I not entitled to an opinion? You have one. I have one. I have chosen over the past months to try to assist in finding a solution to the problem by doing things behind the scenes. You have currently chosen to poke a stick into the fire and stir the embers. So be it. You get to choose how you deal with this and I get to have my own opinion as to the likely effectiveness.

 

Please stop trying to make this some sort of a personal issue between the posters. We are all affected by this and throwing darts at each other doesn't help in any way. There is only one person responsible for creating this mess. No one is condoning it. No individual can fix it other than the one who created the mess to begin with.

[+_Shaddow_]

You and WRASTRO have taken some responsibility here to deal with it. Either you two or GC take it further or I'm left to do what's within my power. That's extremely limited, deleting his log is all I've got.

No. I've done what I could when I could and I said I couldn't deal with this alone. Brushing your hands and saying deleting logs is all you got isn't enough. It takes a mindset to change and positive action to move forward by everyone. It doesn't lay on the responsility of one or two people.

TL and I have no more responsibility than you or any other cacher to do what we can to try to get this long standing problem resolved. Quite a few people have attempted to influence the mindset of the errant cacher without success. Deleting logs won't help.

 

Your continuing to try to influence my actions indicates that you claim more responsibility in finding a solution.

 

Re the lack of success; obviously some better or more extreme ideas are needed...

 

While I would like to influence his mindset I hold no false hopes of doing so. I am, though, going to clearly send a message to him with my log deletion that you can't have your way with my property and still get everything you want out of the deal

I am only sharing my opinion. I claim no responsibility in finding a solution. I am simply sharing my opinion that I personally believe your course of action is not productive. Am I not entitled to an opinion? You have one. I have one. I have chosen over the past months to try to assist in finding a solution to the problem by doing things behind the scenes. You have currently chosen to poke a stick into the fire and stir the embers. So be it. You get to choose how you deal with this and I get to have my own opinion as to the likely effectiveness.

 

Please stop trying to make this some sort of a personal issue between the posters. We are all affected by this and throwing darts at each other doesn't help in any way. There is only one person responsible for creating this mess. No one is condoning it. No individual can fix it other than the one who created the mess to begin with.

 

Of course you are and you've had it and I even heard and considered it.

 

Wait a minute, you ARE taking more responsibility lol. But it was obvious. No worries but why be sneaky about it is beyond me. Of course unless you explain why you keep it down low. You could have simply been upfront about it and explained why my actions might interfere with that and that would have been that. In fact, you had been up front from the beginning I would have never deleted my log instead waiting for your efforts to run its course.

 

You two jumped my case and made it personal. I've been defending myself not throwing aggressive 'darts' as you say.

[+TotemLake]

You two jumped my case and made it personal. I've been defending myself not throwing aggressive 'darts' as you say.

Actually, until this post I had agreed with a sentiment and didn't make it personal until I was accused of defending the guy, then accused of making a veiled threat and left me in a position to start defending myself. And again, when you started insinuating other things such as being a know it all and re-emphasising it through your posts. The personal attacks are coming from you, Shaddow, with demands to quit repeating myself while you repeat yourself. I'd just as soon keep this a gentleman's debate. Will you?

 

The post you quoted was only making an opinion of lowering yourself to his level if that was your game plan.

Edited April 25, 2011 by TotemLake

[+_Shaddow_]

You two jumped my case and made it personal. I've been defending myself not throwing aggressive 'darts' as you say.

Actually, until this post I had agreed with a sentiment and didn't make it personal until I was accused of defending the guy, then accused of making a veiled threat and left me in a position to start defending myself. And again, when you started insinuating other things such as being a know it all and re-emphasising it through your posts. The personal attacks are coming from you, Shaddow, with demands to quit repeating myself while you repeat yourself. I'd just as soon keep this a gentleman's debate. Will you?

 

The post you quoted was only making an opinion of lowering yourself to his level if that was your game plan.

 

I never accused you of defending the guy, go back read the statement. I did question that as part of your motivation and you cleared it up.

 

Stating it is personal and actually making it personal is too different things. I see it starting earlier at "Then you truly misunderstand and underestimate the level of his obsession. It'll irritate you more than it will him. Guaranteed." You'd made your point and I heard it and listened, and could have let it go but you keep pushing. And still do. So you have had more motivation then just being heard about your opinion.

 

My goal hasn't been to attack you, only clearing up the misleading statements you make. You've been taking things out of context, misrepresenting them and some of your statements contradict others of your statements. Most said in a way to attempt to manipulate me into taking your advice. Once you stop that then I'll have nothing to talk about since you don't want to discuss the topic at hand.

 

Telling me your making it personal does sound like some sort of threat. One I think you're following up on

Edited April 25, 2011 by _Shaddow_

[+_Shaddow_]

You and WRASTRO have taken some responsibility here to deal with it. Either you two or GC take it further or I'm left to do what's within my power. That's extremely limited, deleting his log is all I've got.

No. I've done what I could when I could and I said I couldn't deal with this alone. Brushing your hands and saying deleting logs is all you got isn't enough. It takes a mindset to change and positive action to move forward by everyone. It doesn't lay on the responsility of one or two people.

 

You left us again. You're not alone in this, I'm not brushing my hands of anything. Since you know so much, share what is more. It doesn't take a mind set to get things done it takes action. And between you and me, I'm the only one apparently that is doing, or willing to do anything.

Stop by the WSGA Forums to learn a bit more about who has been attempting to assist with this ongoing problem. I will state one more time that deleting logs will not help and is more likely to prolong the issue. Trying to strike back as a means of revenge isn't the right answer. I don't know what the right answer is but I am certain attempting to punish is not it.

 

I just saw this post so responding now.

 

I don't frequent those forums so was not aware. It would have been more helpful to point out any available information such as this much earlier in the conversation. I will go there and see what I can find.

 

It's not revenge or punishment, it's logical consequences. I will let him take my trackable and log it for his stats but when he abuses that privilege then I will take away from him.

[Team Misguided]

I'd like to point out a couple of things here.

 

Typically when we have a person who is acting in a disruptive manner in the geocaching world they are looking for more than the caches. In most cases it's attention and the more attention they are given the more it feeds their disruptive behavior. The attention can manifest itself in things like a forum thread, deleted logs and direct emails. The only thing that has worked on a consistent basis is to ignore the individual. When they aren't getting the attention they seek they get bored and move on to something else.

 

That may not work here, but giving him all this attention isn't gong to help.

 

The whole trackables sub-culture in Geocaching is an interesting group of people. Most of the people are pretty responsible and do what they can to move trackables along promptly. Most of the people who send trackables out into the geocaching world understand that, once released, the movement of the bug is out of their control. The best thing you can do as a travel bug owner is to take a Zen approach and accept that once released all bugs are a part of the game and will move or not move and there is nothing that can be done to change it. Enjoy their journeys while they are moving and don't worry about them if they are delayed for months or longer in a mountain top cache or the bottom of someone's caching bag. Just my humble opinion and something for you to think about.

 

I will wrap up by asking everyone to respect the opinions of others.

[+_Shaddow_]

 

Stop by the WSGA Forums to learn a bit more about who has been attempting to assist with this ongoing problem. I will state one more time that deleting logs will not help and is more likely to prolong the issue. Trying to strike back as a means of revenge isn't the right answer. I don't know what the right answer is but I am certain attempting to punish is not it.

 

I just saw this post so responding now.

 

I don't frequent those forums so was not aware. It would have been more helpful to point out any available information such as this much earlier in the conversation. I will go there and see what I can find.

 

It's not revenge or punishment, it's logical consequences. I will let him take my trackable and log it for his stats but when he abuses that privilege then I will take away from him.

 

Ok, I realized I had read that and just read it again.

 

Second to last post by a lackey:

"As I said, he has been given many opportunities to air his grievances; Groundspeak has spent literally hours on multiple occasions trying to placate one cacher and resolve his perceived issues, with little apparent success."

So there is NO headway and no further work planned.

 

Part of the last post:

"I am by no means condoning, recommending, nor will I do this myself, but... Since the "original" issue is supposedly a difference in the numbers between his own logs and gc.com, I think he may be shooting himself in the foot at this point. He has pissed off alot of people and I'm guessing there may be a number of COs and TBOs that may just go ahead and delete his logs once he actually starts logging caches and TBs, which will then affect his numbers again. Or some other un-ethical cacher who starts "muggle-ing" the caches that he owns. (I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened already)"

 

Funny statement about who's shooting whose foot. Anyway, in my opinion, muggling has caches is way over the line. Deleting his logs is not only not over the line, but is appropriate action to take.

[+_Shaddow_]

I'd like to point out a couple of things here.

 

Typically when we have a person who is acting in a disruptive manner in the geocaching world they are looking for more than the caches. In most cases it's attention and the more attention they are given the more it feeds their disruptive behavior. The attention can manifest itself in things like a forum thread, deleted logs and direct emails. The only thing that has worked on a consistent basis is to ignore the individual. When they aren't getting the attention they seek they get bored and move on to something else.

 

That may not work here, but giving him all this attention isn't gong to help.

 

The whole trackables sub-culture in Geocaching is an interesting group of people. Most of the people are pretty responsible and do what they can to move trackables along promptly. Most of the people who send trackables out into the geocaching world understand that, once released, the movement of the bug is out of their control. The best thing you can do as a travel bug owner is to take a Zen approach and accept that once released all bugs are a part of the game and will move or not move and there is nothing that can be done to change it. Enjoy their journeys while they are moving and don't worry about them if they are delayed for months or longer in a mountain top cache or the bottom of someone's caching bag. Just my humble opinion and something for you to think about.

 

I will wrap up by asking everyone to respect the opinions of others.

 

Yes, that applies in a lot of cases but it seems laid out by two in the know that it's clearly about OCD and not attention. Besides, I can ignore something and let it go for quite a while but when the results don't come in after many months even years it's time to do something different. I don't condone sitting back passively and letting him have free rein. Deleting his logs is a small thing but it seems effective, direct and appropriate.

Edited April 25, 2011 by _Shaddow_

[+WRASTRO]

Stop by the WSGA Forums to learn a bit more about who has been attempting to assist with this ongoing problem. I will state one more time that deleting logs will not help and is more likely to prolong the issue. Trying to strike back as a means of revenge isn't the right answer. I don't know what the right answer is but I am certain attempting to punish is not it.

 

I just saw this post so responding now.

 

I don't frequent those forums so was not aware. It would have been more helpful to point out any available information such as this much earlier in the conversation. I will go there and see what I can find.

 

It's not revenge or punishment, it's logical consequences. I will let him take my trackable and log it for his stats but when he abuses that privilege then I will take away from him.

 

Ok, I realized I had read that and just read it again.

 

Second to last post by a lackey:

"As I said, he has been given many opportunities to air his grievances; Groundspeak has spent literally hours on multiple occasions trying to placate one cacher and resolve his perceived issues, with little apparent success."

So there is NO headway and no further work planned.

 

Part of the last post:

"I am by no means condoning, recommending, nor will I do this myself, but... Since the "original" issue is supposedly a difference in the numbers between his own logs and gc.com, I think he may be shooting himself in the foot at this point. He has pissed off alot of people and I'm guessing there may be a number of COs and TBOs that may just go ahead and delete his logs once he actually starts logging caches and TBs, which will then affect his numbers again. Or some other un-ethical cacher who starts "muggle-ing" the caches that he owns. (I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened already)"

 

Funny statement about who's shooting whose foot. Anyway, in my opinion, muggling has caches is way over the line. Deleting his logs is not only not over the line, but is appropriate action to take.

You are free to choose what you believe to be the correct action. I am free to tell you I disagree with you. Nothing personal. No attacks. Just my opinion. I stand by my statement that deleting valid logs is bad form.

[+B+L]

You are free to choose what you believe to be the correct action. I am free to tell you I disagree with you. Nothing personal. No attacks. Just my opinion. I stand by my statement that deleting valid logs is bad form.

But it's always good for a laugh in "The Stands".

Stop by the Northwest forums if you would enjoy catching up on some regional angst.

 

[+WRASTRO]

You are free to choose what you believe to be the correct action. I am free to tell you I disagree with you. Nothing personal. No attacks. Just my opinion. I stand by my statement that deleting valid logs is bad form.

But it's always good for a laugh in "The Stands".

Stop by the Northwest forums if you would enjoy catching up on some regional angst.

 

Yep. Why not let everyone have a chance to share in the fun? What's your point?

[+TotemLake]

Funny statement about who's shooting whose foot. Anyway, in my opinion, muggling has caches is way over the line. Deleting his logs is not only not over the line, but is appropriate action to take.

Yah I know, I didn't use it cuz I read it. I used it before that. But herein lies the viscious circle. He's ticking everyone off while he tries to straighten out his numbers, and the logs are getting deleted, which causes him to tick everyone off while he tries to straighten out his numbers.

 

I'm just not seeing the logic.

[jholly]

Well it seems to me that the only effective way to deal with this problem is for everyone to quit dropping bugs and coins into caches in the Puget Sound, ah, er, Salish Sea area. Then said cacher will have time to reconcile his numbers, take his pictures and any other activities he deems necessary. Not to mention there will be a lot less angst over missing travelers. Probably not practical, but should work.

[+_Shaddow_]

Well it seems to me that the only effective way to deal with this problem is for everyone to quit dropping bugs and coins into caches in the Puget Sound, ah, er, Salish Sea area. Then said cacher will have time to reconcile his numbers, take his pictures and any other activities he deems necessary. Not to mention there will be a lot less angst over missing travelers. Probably not practical, but should work.

 

I stopped dropping a few months ago. If it would end when he got caught up then it maybe it would be worth it but I can see that he starts grabbing more again and it's a never ending cycle.

Edited April 25, 2011 by _Shaddow_

[+_Shaddow_]

Funny statement about who's shooting whose foot. Anyway, in my opinion, muggling has caches is way over the line. Deleting his logs is not only not over the line, but is appropriate action to take.

Yah I know, I didn't use it cuz I read it. I used it before that. But herein lies the viscious circle. He's ticking everyone off while he tries to straighten out his numbers, and the logs are getting deleted, which causes him to tick everyone off while he tries to straighten out his numbers.

 

I'm just not seeing the logic.

 

Let's put this to rest for now with what I said back in post #43:

 

Alight, I've already deleted his grab log, nothing I can do about that now, even if I wanted to. This will be a learning experience and we'll see the reaction and that's when we will know one way or the other.

 

[+Dgwphotos]

Well it seems to me that the only effective way to deal with this problem is for everyone to quit dropping bugs and coins into caches in the Puget Sound, ah, er, Salish Sea area. Then said cacher will have time to reconcile his numbers, take his pictures and any other activities he deems necessary. Not to mention there will be a lot less angst over missing travelers. Probably not practical, but should work.

 

The difficulty in that is getting the message to everyone. The majority of cachers never venture into these forums, and sending emails to cachers or posting notes on cache pages, is impractical.

 

We are getting just a little too worked up around here about this issue.

[+The Jester]

Deleting his logs is a small thing but it seems effective, direct and appropriate.

Here's a story problem:

Cacher N has a problem with his TB numbers not matching GC.com's numbers. His response it to hold on to any TB's he finds (not helping the problem IMO). He releases a TB of Cacher S finally. Cacher S's response is to delete Cacher N's logs (i.e.. teach Cacher N a lesson) - thereby componding the original problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's.

 

Question: Does this seem like "effective, direct and appropriate" action to correct the problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's?

[+Max and 99]

 

Your action IMO is a shot in the foot and you seemed to have reasoned so in your previous post but with a backhanded swipe at who is responsisble for it. I refuse to accept your need for me to be responsible for another man's actions, including yours.

 

After reading this long thread I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with everything that TotemLake has said.

[+B+L]

Deleting his logs is a small thing but it seems effective, direct and appropriate.

Here's a story problem:

Cacher N has a problem with his TB numbers not matching GC.com's numbers. His response it to hold on to any TB's he finds (not helping the problem IMO). He releases a TB of Cacher S finally. Cacher S's response is to delete Cacher N's logs (i.e.. teach Cacher N a lesson) - thereby componding the original problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's.

 

Question: Does this seem like "effective, direct and appropriate" action to correct the problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's?

Yeah, except that is not really what is happening here. Cacher N has a problem with both his smilies and his trackable counts. This is not a recent occurrence. It matters not what anyone else does or does not do. The numbers are not going to get better and the counts are never going to match. Cacher N is compulsively hoarding trackables. This is not something that will be solved by patience, negotiating, reasoning, or bargaining. This is not something that will be exacerbated by deleting logs. It is a serious problem and it is not going to solve itself.

[+_Shaddow_]

Deleting his logs is a small thing but it seems effective, direct and appropriate.

Here's a story problem:

Cacher N has a problem with his TB numbers not matching GC.com's numbers. His response it to hold on to any TB's he finds (not helping the problem IMO). He releases a TB of Cacher S finally. Cacher S's response is to delete Cacher N's logs (i.e.. teach Cacher N a lesson) - thereby componding the original problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's.

 

Question: Does this seem like "effective, direct and appropriate" action to correct the problem of Cacher N's numbers not matching GC.com's?

 

I'm starting to wonder if someone(s) came up with the idea of deleting his trackable logs long before I did, it would explain why the numbers are off.

 

Either way, throughout this topic the discussion has been about symptoms and not the real issue, a cacher is taking and keeping our trackables for a very long time, even after repeated attempts to retrieve them and address his issues. This situation is not acceptable.

[+_Shaddow_]

If you place the cache on private property and notify the suspected thief he is not welcome on said property you might have a chance of getting a trespass charge on him.

 

This is a start of an excellent workaround that was presented early in this topic; setting up a few caches that he isn't allowed to visit and therefore caches where it's safe to trade trackables. The points logscaler & Red, and I made in the post that followed, are steps that might be necessary for ____ to respect the fact that he is not allowed to visit them.

[+TotemLake]

If you place the cache on private property and notify the suspected thief he is not welcome on said property you might have a chance of getting a trespass charge on him.

 

This is a start of an excellent workaround that was presented early in this topic; setting up a few caches that he isn't allowed to visit and therefore caches where it's safe to trade trackables. The points logscaler & Red, and I made in the post that followed, are steps that might be necessary for ____ to respect the fact that he is not allowed to visit them.

I missed this early in the conversation or completely forgot it. Regardless, I have to agree this would be a good start. It's an intervention that can be enforced. The only problem you'll have is to be able prove it when it happens. There are methods that have worked well with the LE such as security cameras.

[+_Shaddow_]

If you place the cache on private property and notify the suspected thief he is not welcome on said property you might have a chance of getting a trespass charge on him.

 

This is a start of an excellent workaround that was presented early in this topic; setting up a few caches that he isn't allowed to visit and therefore caches where it's safe to trade trackables. The points logscaler & Red, and I made in the post that followed, are steps that might be necessary for ____ to respect the fact that he is not allowed to visit them.

I missed this early in the conversation or completely forgot it. Regardless, I have to agree this would be a good start. It's an intervention that can be enforced. The only problem you'll have is to be able prove it when it happens. There are methods that have worked well with the LE such as security cameras.

 

My follow up post discussed that

[+TotemLake]

Our WAN was suffering excruciating latency issues when I posted. I couldn't wait out the five minutes to refresh the page and had to get back to work.

[+Dgwphotos]

Our WAN was suffering excruciating latency issues when I posted. I couldn't wait out the five minutes to refresh the page and had to get back to work.

 

Too many devices on the Network?

[+Forty-n-Eight]

Let me suggest an additional option. When it became clear that NBJPoppa had held onto two of my coins for more than a year (without logging them) I wrote him and asked him to not pick up any of my trackables anymore. I plan to delete his logs for all my trackables and caches if I catch wind of him moving my coins again. If he received similar (respectful) emails from 50 local cachers he might get the drift.

[+Dgwphotos]

Hydnsek posted this over at the WSGA forums in a similar discussion:

 

Quick update: I touched bases today with one of the people trying to help resolve this situation, and he reported that the hoarder handed off 85 TBs just yesterday to a cacher headed to New Zealand (who has grabbed them online), and also gave a half dozen or so to a local cacher. Granted, this is just a portion of the TB stash he appears to have, but at least some captives are being released.

 

I also know of a Black Diamond area cacher who got a TB back from the individual in question.

[Team Misguided]

I think these recent posts prove that progress is being made. I would ask everyone to refrain from taking any action that might cause a setback.

 

Let's let this one drop off the page for now.

[+_Shaddow_]

Quick update: I just got notice from GS that he wants his log reinstated and that they would do so by the 5th if I didn't have any objections. Of course I do and responded as such, and if they were to reinstate the log it is against my wishes.

 

My first argument is simply that I don't want his name on my TB page. It's my TB and I can choose who can log it. My reasons, if needed and they shouldn't be under the current guidelines, is that he has, and continues to, on a massive scale, violate GS guidelines for the TB holding timeline as well as the logging requirements.

 

But if those reasons are not in GS's opinion justification for deletion of his log then they should consider the following. While my actions are within the guidelines, his actions are not. At a minimum, I think he needs to explain his violation of the guidelines by holding the coin for 1 year and 5 days after it disappeared from the cache into which it was dropped. He needs to explain why we went so long without logging it and then posted a grab log predated more than a year on the same day as the drop log. Or if that is a lie, then how he came into possession of it after so long. If he does neither then he never actually possessed it and is posting a false log.

 

I'll post another update when I hear back.

[+WRASTRO]

Quick update: I just got notice from GS that he wants his log reinstated and that they would do so by the 5th if I didn't have any objections. Of course I do and responded as such, and if they were to reinstate the log it is against my wishes.

 

My first argument is simply that I don't want his name on my TB page. It's my TB and I can choose who can log it. My reasons, if needed and they shouldn't be under the current guidelines, is that he has, and continues to, on a massive scale, violate GS guidelines for the TB holding timeline as well as the logging requirements.

 

But if those reasons are not in GS's opinion justification for deletion of his log then they should consider the following. While my actions are within the guidelines, his actions are not. At a minimum, I think he needs to explain his violation of the guidelines by holding the coin for 1 year and 5 days after it disappeared from the cache into which it was dropped. He needs to explain why we went so long without logging it and then posted a grab log predated more than a year on the same day as the drop log. Or if that is a lie, then how he came into possession of it after so long. If he does neither then he never actually possessed it and is posting a false log.

 

I'll post another update when I hear back.

Believe me, I understand your frustration with all of this.

 

I do not understand how your actions are within the guidelines since you are deleting valid logs. His actions make no sense to any normal cacher but I am not aware of any rule or guideline that prohibits what he has done. The 14 day holding period is a suggestion, not a mandate.

 

As TB and GC owners we do not get to choose who moves our trackables and who logs them and how or when. We only get to be frustrated from time to time by those who play outside of the accepted and expected norms.

[Team Misguided]

It's my TB and I can choose who can log it.

 

The only way you can control who can and cannot log one of your travel bugs is to never release it. If you keep it with you at all times and only let people you know and trust have a peek at the tracking number. Once you release it into the game you have no control over who picks it up and logs it. Deleting a valid log, no matter how much you disapprove of the individual isn't the right thing to do.

[+Hypnopaedia]

It's my TB and I can choose who can log it.

 

The only way you can control who can and cannot log one of your travel bugs is to never release it. If you keep it with you at all times and only let people you know and trust have a peek at the tracking number. Once you release it into the game you have no control over who picks it up and logs it. Deleting a valid log, no matter how much you disapprove of the individual isn't the right thing to do.

 

Please Note: I am not suggesting that law enforcement actually becomes involved, I am only trying to clarify the way I see it and why this bothers me so much.

 

But if the person who is taking the TB or GC in question is not complying with the reasonable requests of the owner would that not be considered theft. I.E. I say to my friend: "You can take my car to the store that is half a mile away." and he drives it for 30 days to Nova Scotia would be considered theft.

 

In fact, let's look at the terms of use:

 

"This Agreement is governed by the law of the state of Washington, U.S.A. You consent to jurisdiction of and venue in the courts in King County Washington, U.S.A. in all disputes arising out of or in connection with this Agreement. Use of the Site is not authorized in any jurisdiction that does not give effect to all provisions of this Agreement. Groundspeak's performance under this Agreement is subject to all applicable laws and regulations, and You agree that Groundspeak may comply with law enforcement or regulatory requests or requirements notwithstanding any contrary term of this Agreement."

 

Assuming that:

 

RCW 9A.56.140

Possessing stolen property — Definition — Presumption.

 

 

(1) "Possessing stolen property" means knowingly to receive, retain, possess, conceal, or dispose of stolen property knowing that it has been stolen and to withhold or appropriate the same to the use of any person other than the true owner or person entitled thereto.

 

(2) The fact that the person who stole the property has not been convicted, apprehended, or identified is not a defense to a charge of possessing stolen property.

(3) When a person has in his or her possession, or under his or her control, stolen access devices issued in the names of two or more persons, or ten or more stolen merchandise pallets, or ten or more stolen beverage crates, or a combination of ten or more stolen merchandise pallets and beverage crates, as defined under RCW 9A.56.010, he or she is presumed to know that they are stolen.

 

(4) The presumption in subsection (3) of this section is rebuttable by evidence raising a reasonable inference that the possession of such stolen access devices, merchandise pallets, or beverage crates was without knowledge that they were stolen.

 

(5) In any prosecution for possessing stolen property, it is a sufficient defense that the property was merchandise pallets that were received by a pallet recycler or repairer in the ordinary course of its business.

 

May I also note:

 

"RCW 9.54.130

Restoration of stolen property — Duty of officers.

 

The officer arresting any person charged as principal or accessory in any robbery or larceny shall use reasonable diligence to secure the property alleged to have been stolen, and after seizure shall be answerable therefor while it remains in his hands, and shall annex a schedule thereof to his return of the warrant.

 

Whenever the prosecuting attorney shall require such property for use as evidence upon the examination or trial, such officer, upon his demand, shall deliver it to him and take his receipt therefor, after which such prosecuting attorney shall be answerable for the same."

 

I think this all applies. Why must we all pretend its any different. We all know of Moun10bike's righteous fight against his Geocoins being sold. Is this really different? One person tries to sell a coin for money that he can enjoy therefore taking the ability of the owner to enjoy it in the way he chooses. The other holds a coin for more than a year so that he can enjoy the cataloging, picture taking and possessing a coin in a way that takes the ablility of the owner to enjoy it in the way he chooses.

 

I feel very strongly about this, and I fully respect all who feel different than me. It is not my intent in this post to offend anyone, and if I have I apologize.

 

Yours in Caching,

 

Hypnopaedia

Edited May 5, 2011 by Hypnopaedia

[+_Shaddow_]

no matter how much you disapprove of the individual

 

I'm sure that you didn't mean to put a spin on this so just for clarity: I never said that I, nor do I, disapprove of this person. I have however said that I strongly disapprove of this person's actions.

[+_Shaddow_]

Some would say that it's GS's while they say it's not.

If he has as many coins and TBs as he is alleged to have and GS's "interventions" have had no effect, why has his account not been suspended or even banned? That is really all GS can do in this situation.

 

The absurdity of the situation is best illustrated by the final two logs of this TB:

http://www.geocachin...aspx?id=1655305

 

This is a very good question that deserves an answer

[+_Shaddow_]

Ok, rereading this and other forums and finally putting two and two together. Here is my theory about the dispute between the hoarder and GS:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Hoarder significantly abuses the system over long time periods which results in trackable owners deleting his logs
   
3. Each deletion results in his GC trackable stat page to display find numbers less than his personal and extensive spreadsheet
   
4. He appeals to GS to reinstate the logs in an attempt to get his GC stat page numbers to match his personal numbers
   
5. GS refuses to reinstate the logs
   
6. He holds the trackables as hostage demanding reinstatement of his logs as ransom
   

If this is accurate then it should have been brought out into the open and cleared up a long time ago. Even if the facts differ, we, the owners of the trackables, deserve to know what they are.

 

By previous statements in this forum, the facts are known by a few people posting here and in other forums and instead of informing us they have instead kept it to background negotiations that have admittedly failed repeatedly.

 

I would like the full story and an explanation of why his account hasn’t been suspended or banned.

[+hydnsek]

By previous statements in this forum, the facts are known by a few people posting here and in other forums and instead of informing us they have instead kept it to background negotiations that have admittedly failed repeatedly.

 

I would like the full story and an explanation of why his account hasn’t been suspended or banned.

Seriously?

 

Most of the details in this situation have been relayed - more so than in most cases - here or the WSGA forum. There has been a proactive effort to keep people informed, without publicly flogging the individual or going tabloid with lurid details.

 

Banning his account seems counterproductive to me, since he couldn't then record his drop-off of hoarded TBs, and record-keeping is obviously important to him, as is TB-tracking for others.

 

"Background negotiations that have admittedly failed repeatedly" is obviously untrue, based on recent posted developments - over a 100 TBs released in recent days - and Team Misguided's note above. Is the problem completely resolved? No. Is progress being made? Yes.

[+_Shaddow_]

Seriously?

 

Most of the details in this situation have been relayed - more so than in most cases - here or the WSGA forum. There has been a proactive effort to keep people informed, without publicly flogging the individual or going tabloid with lurid details.

“publicly flogging the individual or going tabloid with lurid details” is an exaggerative spin statement and does not accurately reflect what is being asked.

 

I would say that “Most [many]of the details in this situation have [have not] been relayed.” What I know to this point I’ve only learned through putting together bits and pieces of info in various forum posts across topics and across websites as well as info provided to me ‘behind the scenes’ (which is apparently not only presented as acceptable practice but also advocated as better than open discussion of information).

 

Here is partial list of the additional information that I would like to know:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Why don't GS numbers match his? Is it because logs have been deleted and GS refuses to reinstate them? GS stance is taken (good or bad) without our input yet we are the ones that suffer the consequences
   
3. How many TBs does he currently have? Let us know how big this problem really is
   
4. Are there future negotiations planned? We want to know what to expect
   
5. What is GS or others currently doing to solve the problem? We want to know the problem is being worked and how hard it is being worked
   
6. Is he expected to continue to grab trackables? I think it's pretty obvious that the problem will continue into the future because he will continue to grab trackables to feed his obsession. If this isn't accurate, then explain why
   
7. What is his range so we can at least know how far out to drop trackables? Personally, I’ve learned that he won’t walk much of a trail to get them. But not sure how far he will drive.
   

If we are going to deal with this OCD affected person (the disease rather then the person) than we need more info.

 

 

"Background negotiations that have admittedly failed repeatedly" is obviously untrue, based on recent posted developments - over a 100 TBs released in recent days - and Team Misguided's note above. Is the problem completely resolved? No. Is progress being made? Yes.

Your own words on the 7th of last month:

 

“I no longer release TBs/coins anywhere”

 

“As I said, he has been given many opportunities to air his grievances; Groundspeak has spent literally hours on multiple occasions trying to placate one cacher and resolve his perceived issues, with little apparent success”

Granted on 4/24 a couple of weeks ago he released 85 TBs and a few more here and there. But that is recent news and after this discussion was well under way. Maybe even a result of this discussion. More has happened since this topic started then in the months previous

 

Then as recently as four days ago forum posts indicate TBs are still missing en masse. If you want to imply here that I was obviously wrong in my suggestion that this topic is helping then you also admit that the problem isn't being resolved.

 

All this generates more questions:

Why did he release them?

What got him to do that so we can do the same?

Is he planning to release more soon?

 

 

Banning his account seems counterproductive to me, since he couldn't then record his drop-off of hoarded TBs, and record-keeping is obviously important to him, as is TB-tracking for others.

I hope your’e not advocating protecting his desires for record-keeping over protecting our trackables.

 

As far as I understand, he is holding the trackables until GS meets his demands. Obviously his overwhelming desire is to get his numbers on GS. Banning him from doing that would therefore have a very significant affect on the negotiations by returning power over the situation from him to us.

 

Even so, it has been stated that GS will not do that honor his request. Therefore the deadlock results in the loss of our trackables, at least for the foreseeable future. Banning him may cost us the trackables that he already has but at least could work to remove his desire to gather more. So instead of saving what is already lost, we can prevent more loss and get back to normal both of which are very big gains.

 

Regarding TB tracking for others, we would be deleting logs on our own TBs so this is pretty much a mute issue. Maybe a few people are interested in how many trackables pass through their caches and that can be dealt with by logging our own drop/grab into the caches. Actually, that would put everything back the way it was while still removing this cacher from the log record.

[+Lightning Jeff]

I've read this entire thread, and the one at WSGA, with interest, frustration and no small feeling of irony.

As much as it pains me to say so, I'm in agreement with the sentiment that this cacher's behavior warrants suspension or banishment. Frankly, this cacher deliberately chose to ignore accepted norms (even if not hard-and-fast "rules") for moving TBs along. Then, when the issue was (apparently) presented to him pointedly, he deliberately chose to continue to ignore those norms, and to ignore the expression of concern from people he presumably once had respect for. He chose to do so, I assume, knowing that he was frustrating the well-meaning intentions of hundreds if not thousand of fellow cachers, who spent thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars on those TBs. How deliberately indifferent to the game's norms do you have to be to get banned?

 

As for a disability: If he has one, I'm sorry he does. However, sometimes one's actions stemming from a debilitating disability will indeed lead to consequences, including the loss of friends and loss of access to recreational opportunities. The answer is to seek treatment, not ask the entire community to please accept his long-term and unyielding disregard of the community's norms. If he refuses to seek treatment, then I see a natural consequence in suspension or banishment. Is it really any favor to him, if he is sick, to allow him to continue to obsess over accurate statistics when it seems they never will be?? Maybe being locked out of his obsession is just what he needs.

 

Finally, I think the concern about getting his current hoarded stash of TBs logged and back out into circulation is probably largely a lost cause. It's nice that he's deigned to release a tiny fraction of the TBs he's scooped up and held hostage. At the same time, let's be clear: He's almost certainly still out there scooping up more TBs, and not logging them. Better, I think, to perhaps sacrifice those currently in his possession, and prevent further loss, than to wait it out and naively expect that someday his inventory will be back down to zero.

 

And I say all of the foregoing with full respect and appreciation for the people who have tried to work this issue behind the scenes - that is undoubtedly worth far more than any amount of bloviating in this forum.

[+B+L]

Seriously?

 

Most of the details in this situation have been relayed - more so than in most cases - here or the WSGA forum. There has been a proactive effort to keep people informed, without publicly flogging the individual or going tabloid with lurid details.

 

Banning his account seems counterproductive to me, since he couldn't then record his drop-off of hoarded TBs, and record-keeping is obviously important to him, as is TB-tracking for others.

 

"Background negotiations that have admittedly failed repeatedly" is obviously untrue, based on recent posted developments - over a 100 TBs released in recent days - and Team Misguided's note above. Is the problem completely resolved? No. Is progress being made? Yes.

The moderator of this forum recently suggested that we let this topic slide down the page, which is kind of an interesting reaction. The effort to keep people informed seems more reactive than proactive. The numbers have been off since September 30, 2009 or soon thereafter. We first learned of this problem after seeing a post in the WSGA forums in the middle of November last year. One of the first response to that post states:

The cacher you are referring to does indeed have a serious problem with hoarding trackables. It is to the point where people will not release any new trackables in or around the Seattle area, and those found in the area are quickly handed off to cachers in the north and south sound area to prevent further loss to the hoard cacher.

That was the first we had heard about this underground network. The fact that it exists speaks to the severity of the problem. As does this:

There is a local cacher who has kept a full excel document of literally hundreds of bugs that are in this cachers hands.

That spreadsheet is apparently off by as much as an order of magnitude.

 

In early January, we see this:

Brief update: Bryan (Groundspeak) told me yesterday that he believes [the cacher's] issues are resolved; Groundspeak spent hours with [the cacher] trying to address his concerns.

A quick read of the cacher's recent logs shows that that the issues are not resolved, the recent release of some trackables notwithstanding.

 

Why is one person being allowed to ruin it for everyone else? Suspending or banning this person is the only leverage GS has. Doing nothing is just enabling him.

[+hydnsek]

Granted on 4/24 a couple of weeks ago he released 85 TBs and a few more here and there. But that is recent news and after this discussion was well under way. Maybe even a result of this discussion. More has happened since this topic started then in the months previous.

Don't flatter yourself. If anything, this discussion has antagonized the situation. The recent developments are the work of unsung heroes behind the scenes, which are finally bearing fruit. I would love to publicly applaud their work, but (much like SEAL Team 6) they don't want the attention or to be sucked into this negative vortex. Based on the comments here, they certainly have a thankless task, but at least they are trying to help in a positive fashion.

 

For the record, I've never interacted with the hoarder on this issue nor do I work for Groundspeak. Like others here, I believe that cachers have a right to know what's happening with their TBs, which is why I've tried to relay what I do know (which isn't that much, really), since in my WSGA role I do occasionally get updates.

 

However, some folks here seem as obsessed as the hoarder, and I'm not interested in being caught in the crossfire, so I will withdraw and let others share intel going forward. I will note that long-standing Groundspeak policy is not to discuss issues with individuals in the public forums, so you are unlikely to hear from them on most of your questions. And, there are deeper personal issues than OCD for the person involved, none of which needs public airing or will be resolved here.

 

Finally, I am just as fed up and frustrated as everyone else here, and part of me would love to see him arrested for theft, the TBs confiscated, and his account banned. Yes, I do consider it stealing at this point, and yes, you reap what you sow, even if you have "issues." However, in my role I'm trying to support the current efforts and respect the wishes of those closer to the situation.

Edited May 5, 2011 by hydnsek

[+_Shaddow_]

Granted on 4/24 a couple of weeks ago he released 85 TBs and a few more here and there. But that is recent news and after this discussion was well under way. Maybe even a result of this discussion. More has happened since this topic started then in the months previous.

Don't flatter yourself. If anything, this discussion has antagonized the situation. The recent developments are the work of unsung heroes behind the scenes, which are finally bearing fruit. I would love to publicly applaud their work, but (much like SEAL Team 6) they don't want the attention or to be sucked into this negative vortex. Based on the comments here, they certainly have a thankless task, but at least they are trying to help in a positive fashion.

 

For the record, I've never interacted with the hoarder on this issue nor do I work for Groundspeak. Like others here, I believe that cachers have a right to know what's happening with their TBs, which is why I've tried to relay what I do know (which isn't that much, really), since in my WSGA role I do occasionally get updates.

 

However, some folks here seem as obsessed as the hoarder, and I'm not interested in being caught in the crossfire, so I will withdraw and let others share intel going forward. I will note that long-standing Groundspeak policy is not to discuss issues with individuals in the public forums, so you are unlikely to hear from them on most of your questions. And, there are deeper personal issues than OCD for the person involved, none of which needs public airing or will be resolved here.

 

Finally, I am just as fed up and frustrated as everyone else here, and part of me would love to see him arrested for theft, the TBs confiscated, and his account banned. Yes, I do consider it stealing at this point, and yes, you reap what you sow, even if you have "issues." However, in my role I'm trying to support the current efforts and respect the wishes of those closer to the situation.

 

No need to attack me personally, I haven't attacked you.

 

“antagonized the situation,” "sucked in this negative vortex", "thankless task" etc all again exaggeratory and even inflammatory spin statements that misrepresent our position as negative and your point of view on a relatively positive light. Please tone that down

 

Honestly, I find it hard to believe your SEAL Team 6 story. You outright claim to know little or nothing about the situation while a couple of people here that are much closer to the person and situation have stated they are not actively involved in resolving it. While I don’t personally know the hoarder, I do know people that know him and I was told “there have been attempts over time but they got no where.”

 

Using the bearing fruit analogy, it would appear from the actual information presented that if this release were the results of all that work, it is a small basket of ripe product out of an orchid of work.

 

And I think everyone would be very thankful if there were people working hard on this issue and producing results. If you’re out there: I thank you for your work. I realize that results often don’t accurately reflect effort.

 

If not the details then at least present an overview of the efforts and expected results with a timeline. I can’t help but wonder why all the mystery.

[+The Jester]

Here is partial list of the additional information that I would like to know:

...

 

If we are going to deal with this OCD affected person (the disease rather then the person) than we need more info.

Why are you demanding info that isn't going to do YOU any good? You aren't involved in working with this person (except mimimally as a TB owner) so none of that is of any use to you. Some if it is confidential info that shouldn't (and won't) be shared.

 

Banning him may cost us the trackables that he already has but at least could work to remove his desire to gather more. So instead of saving what is already lost, we can prevent more loss and get back to normal both of which are very big gains.

How do you know banning his account would do any good? I have literally thousands of cache pages, you could ban me today and I could continue for years finding caches. This person doesn't need an account to go back to known caches and find TB/coins to take. 'Cutting him off' may even make him more willing to collect TB/coins and never release them.

 

If not the details then at least present an overview of the efforts and expected results with a timeline. I can’t help but wonder why all the mystery.

You've had an overview of efforts already, more details aren't going to do you any good and may hurt the work. The people involved aren't going to ID themselves, so more demands of info isn't going to get anything. As you have heard from other (“there have been attempts over time but they got no where”) it's taken a long time to get this far, so no timeline is possible, nor, if possible, would be shared publicly.

 

Unless you are going to get invovled directly with talks with this person (and with your expressed attitude I really hope you won't) nothing you are demanding to know is any of your business.

[+_Shaddow_]

Here is partial list of the additional information that I would like to know:

...

 

If we are going to deal with this OCD affected person (the disease rather then the person) than we need more info.

Why are you demanding info that isn't going to do YOU any good? You aren't involved in working with this person (except mimimally as a TB owner) so none of that is of any use to you. Some if it is confidential info that shouldn't (and won't) be shared.

I'm not going to be put in a position of needing to prove it will do me good. Nor a position where I have to explain to your satisfaction a reason to be informed on something that affects me.

 

I'm not asking for information that should reasonably be confidential. I'm asking for reasonable information that shouldn't be confidential given the circumstances.

 

It's not just me, others are interested in this information as well.

 

How do you know banning his account would do any good? I have literally thousands of cache pages, you could ban me today and I could continue for years finding caches. This person doesn't need an account to go back to known caches and find TB/coins to take. 'Cutting him off' may even make him more willing to collect TB/coins and never release them.

I don't. And if you read carefully you'll see that is how I stated it. More careful reading would have addressed the rest of this for you. It appears his main desire is to have his GS trackable stat page have the 'right' numbers which implies the stat page is of primary importance. Suspending or banning him removes the end result so he has no more need to grab trackables. Hopefully.

 

In the current situation he receives positive results for grabbing more trackables, including increasing his negotiation leverage. And if he ends up getting his way, he will feel empowered to bully us more.

 

You've had an overview of efforts already, more details aren't going to do you any good and may hurt the work. The people involved aren't going to ID themselves, so more demands of info isn't going to get anything. As you have heard from other (“there have been attempts over time but they got no where”) it's taken a long time to get this far, so no timeline is possible, nor, if possible, would be shared publicly.

 

Unless you are going to get invovled directly with talks with this person (and with your expressed attitude I really hope you won't) nothing you are demanding to know is any of your business.

Some info has been provided and that is appreciated. I never asked for anyone to be identified

 

A very long time. The results are admittedly very slow coming in and they are also not large enough based on the amount of indicated effort being put into it. I’ve put up with this situation for a long time and given a large amount of room for these efforts to run their course. To ask me to give more on an open ended schedule is unreasonable.

 

Direct talks with the individual has admittedly gotten very little results. I won't want to be involved with efforts that are not working and are directed towards fixing symptoms rather then addressing the real underlying issue.

 

Seems time to move on.

Edited May 6, 2011 by _Shaddow_

[+Forty-n-Eight]

I think the root of the problem here is that we're trying to deal rationally with an irrational person. It never works. The TB's he has are as good as gone. It's time to ban him.