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FTF .. or are you?


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I did some looking around on the Groundspeak support site & didn't find anything that helped.

 

Is there anything that says the cache has to be published before it can be considered a "find" ?

 

I ran across a CO who allowed someone to "beta test" their cache. I was at the cache today and the log already had signatures. After logging my find online (I was the first to do so online), the beta testers logged theirs also - but logged it before the publish date.

 

Doesn't really seem fair, even if I end up listed as FTF for this cache. Shouldn't the beta testers have to visit the hide after it's publish and log their :) for it to count?

 

I'm new to all this (49 finds!) and this was my third attempt at FTF. Looking through logs of other caches I've never really seen this before. I don't really know what to do, so I thought I would come here for advice.

 

Thanks!

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Beta tests don't count for FTFs. Beta tests are usually folks who are present at the time that the cache is placed and check coords, check to make sure the hiding place is sound, etc. Testers, just as the title eludes to. If you found it first after the date of publication, congrats. You're the FTF.

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Being published on gc.com is just a moment in the geocaches life, it is not the birth of the cache. The cache can be found by a million people before being published on gc.com. When it is published, all one million previous finders have every right to go back and log their finds on the correct day even if it was 20 years ago. If you are next to find the cache and you wanna say you were FTF since you were first to find it after it was published then go right ahead, but don't discount the finds of other cachers just because they made them before the cache was published. Their pre-publishing finds are just as valid as your post publishing find.

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Beta tests don't count for FTFs. Beta tests are usually folks who are present at the time that the cache is placed and check coords, check to make sure the hiding place is sound, etc. Testers, just as the title eludes to. If you found it first after the date of publication, congrats. You're the FTF.

 

Beta testers aren't usually present when the cache is hidden - they're given the co-ords before the cache is listed to prove the hide for the CO.

FTF isn't an official part of the game.

Groundspeak isn't the only listing site.

A cache doesn't need to be listed to be found first.

 

When you take all of the above into consideration..

 

1. First to find is first to find, whether the cache is listed, private, accidentally found or whatever.

2. Who cares? FTF is a private game that many people buy into - NOT a global leaderboard.

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Is there anything that says the cache has to be published before it can be considered a "find" ?

 

In a state forest north of me, someone left an ammo can cache under the boardwalk to one of the state's largest cypress trees.

The cache was a long time waiting on a permit, before it could be published on Geocaching.com

During that wait, the log was signed quite a few times by people who discovered the cache. Those were "finds".

 

I once found a cache while looking for a place to hide a cache in the vicinity of an upcoming event. I signed the log. When the cache was published, I logged the find.

 

It's common at events for the host to hand out paper copies of new caches in the area. The event attendees go hunt them, and later they're published.

 

I own some caches that were originally posted on a local geocaching site. It was some months before they were published on Geocaching.com. They had several finds before they were published on GC.com.

 

The oldest letterbox hybrid in Florida was originally published on Letterboxing NA. It was there for a couple of years before the owner cross listed it to GC.com. It had previous finds.

 

Sometimes cache owners give the coords to some friends first. It really doesn't matter whether they call themselves "beta testers" or not. They found the cache.

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I don't play the FTF game, but the acronym itself is "first to FIND" -- there is no award for "first to log online" or "first to find after publication". If someone else had found it first they, by definition are the first to find.

 

Around here in the winter it isn't unusual to be snowshoeing along a trail and see someone's tracks suddenly head off into the bush. Lots of locals have followed those tracks and found caches that haven't been published yet. They sign in and log their find on the site, often meaning they backdate their log so it preceeds the pubication date, but no one would claim they aren't the first to find.

 

Or, sometimes before a big event there are multiple caches hidden and the coordinates are given to the event attendees so they get first crack at finding the caches and then the caches are published after the event is over. In that case there may be dozens of finders before the publication date.

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Is there anything that says the cache has to be published before it can be considered a "find" ?

 

No. You find a cache and sign the logbook it's a find. This site generally doesn't get involved with logging ethics, unless there is some sort of abuse.

 

I ran across a CO who allowed someone to "beta test" their cache. I was at the cache today and the log already had signatures. After logging my find online (I was the first to do so online), the beta testers logged theirs also - but logged it before the publish date.

 

Not unusual. Sometimes people will give the coords to friends to make sure everything is OK before submitting the cache for publication

 

Doesn't really seem fair, even if I end up listed as FTF for this cache. Shouldn't the beta testers have to visit the hide after it's publish and log their :) for it to count?

 

What's not fair about it? This is only a listing service and cache owners are free to advertise their cache in any manner they choose. They can publish it first on another listing site, give the coords to friends, post them on a blog, take out a newspaper ad or whatever. It's nobody else's beeswax how a cache owner chooses to advertise his cache. I'm not sure what you mean by "ending up listed as FTF" as I'm not aware of any place that FTFs are listed other than on 3rd party statistics sites. In which case you would be the person who would be doing the listing .

 

You're either the FTF or you aren't. If someone found the cache before you regardless of the circumstances and you see a signature in the logbook before yours, guess what, you're not FTF. Period. FTF is not something that can be awarded or claimed, it's a simple statement of fact. There is nothing however keeping you from calling yourself FTF and if you use a stats program that counts FTFs go right ahead and count it if you want.

 

I'm new to all this (49 finds!) and this was my third attempt at FTF. Looking through logs of other caches I've never really seen this before. I don't really know what to do, so I thought I would come here for advice.

 

Exactly what advice are you looking for?

Edited by briansnat
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FTF and 2 quarters will buy you a can of pop at the local vending machine down on Main street.

 

Anybody that found the cache first - whether by accident or directions or GPS coords - they are first ones to locate it - they are FTF. No matter what else occurs in life.

 

Be sure and enjoy that pop and your FTF. ;):)

Edited by StarBrand
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Thanks for the feedback. Being new to the game, we have a better understanding of how things work.

 

FTF won't get you into heaven, but it's a nice change of pace sometimes! We're not out to always be FTF, it was just something we set out for on this occasion. Sometimes we do puzzle caches, sometimes we do all the caches in one park. I think our feelings were just a little hurt, being misled into thinking it hadn't been found yet.

 

I was looking for clarification on how logging a cache worked, FTF worked, beta testing a cache worked. It appears there is no "official" standpoint on this. I apologize, my original post didn't convey this clearly enough.

 

Thank you narcissa, that was the advice I was looking for.

 

:)

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"Beta Testers" definitely do NOT count as FTF. They are there to test the cache/coordinates. It would be the equivalent to giving someone a day head start on a scavenger hunt. A hollow FTF if you ask me. Inadvertent FTFs by muggles do count but are not regarded the same as beta-testers.

 

Event caches are another thing entirely. But they are exceptions.

 

Finally Beta Testers don't have log the cache later because they already know where it is. It would be kind of pointless.

 

Of course as stated, FTFs aren't an official part of geocaching, I'm just giving you a second opinion. ;)

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In my own mind, as small as it is, the first to sign the log would be FTF.

If the log was signed before the date of publishing, I might find that troubling as I have no access to it until published and if I was first to sign the log after it was published, I would consider the FTF mine, but that's just me.

FTF is side game and I'm not going to lose any sleep if I miss one.

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"Beta Testers" definitely do NOT count as FTF. They are there to test the cache/coordinates. It would be the equivalent to giving someone a day head start on a scavenger hunt. A hollow FTF if you ask me. Inadvertent FTFs by muggles do count but are not regarded the same as beta-testers.

 

By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

 

If getting an FTF is important to you, something that does not make sense to many, it would be very hollow indeed if it was awarded to you rather than earned simply because you were given the coords by a source or listing service other than the CO.

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FTF and 2 quarters will buy you a can of pop at the local vending machine down on Main street.

 

Anybody that found the cache first - whether by accident or directions or GPS coords - they are first ones to locate it - they are FTF. No matter what else occurs in life.

 

Be sure and enjoy that pop and your FTF. ;):)

 

THIS IS A NICE POST..

 

"Anybody that found the cache first - whether by accident or directions or GPS coords - they are first ones to locate it - they are FTF. No matter what else occurs in life."

 

Your soda pop references.. nice one.

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By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

 

However, it can be argued that beta testers are part of the placement team and thus aren't actual finders nor FTFers.

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However, it can be argued that beta testers are part of the placement team and thus aren't actual finders nor FTFers.

 

For the purposes of this thread, the term "beta testers" appears to be used as someone given the coords and sent out to find it with no more information than any subsequent finders would have, in that context, it is again simply a fact.

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"Beta Testers" definitely do NOT count as FTF. They are there to test the cache/coordinates. It would be the equivalent to giving someone a day head start on a scavenger hunt. A hollow FTF if you ask me. Inadvertent FTFs by muggles do count but are not regarded the same as beta-testers.

 

By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

 

If getting an FTF is important to you, something that does not make sense to many, it would be very hollow indeed if it was awarded to you rather than earned simply because you were given the coords by a source or listing service other than the CO.

 

What about puzzle caches? If a CO just gives the coords to a beta-tester to test the coordinates then how is that fair to a non-beta tester who has to solve a difficult puzzle to get the cache?

 

FTF is not a binary condition, it is also not a dictionary defined term either. For example what about group FTFs and shared FTFs?

 

FTFs are for fun and not an official part of geocaching. There is wiggle room but there is also, I believe, a "code of honor".

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if someone logs that they are FTF, but dont write in the logbook till later and someone finds it in between, does the person who logged online or in the logbook actually claim FTF?

 

The person who signs the log book first in this case would get the FTF as there is no evidence that the online log was actually there first

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"Beta Testers" definitely do NOT count as FTF. They are there to test the cache/coordinates. It would be the equivalent to giving someone a day head start on a scavenger hunt. A hollow FTF if you ask me. Inadvertent FTFs by muggles do count but are not regarded the same as beta-testers.

 

By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

 

If getting an FTF is important to you, something that does not make sense to many, it would be very hollow indeed if it was awarded to you rather than earned simply because you were given the coords by a source or listing service other than the CO.

 

What about puzzle caches? If a CO just gives the coords to a beta-tester to test the coordinates then how is that fair to a non-beta tester who has to solve a difficult puzzle to get the cache?

 

FTF is not a binary condition, it is also not a dictionary defined term either. For example what about group FTFs and shared FTFs?

 

FTFs are for fun and not an official part of geocaching. There is wiggle room but there is also, I believe, a "code of honor".

 

What if I were just out hiking in the woods and I found the final to an unfound 5 star puzzle but had never looked at the cache page previously? I would still be the FTF on the cache. I'm not sure where the confusion lies. If there is another signature in the logbook, you're not FTF. Seems pretty cut and dried. How/when that signature got there makes no difference.

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"Beta Testers" definitely do NOT count as FTF. They are there to test the cache/coordinates. It would be the equivalent to giving someone a day head start on a scavenger hunt. A hollow FTF if you ask me. Inadvertent FTFs by muggles do count but are not regarded the same as beta-testers.

 

By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

 

If getting an FTF is important to you, something that does not make sense to many, it would be very hollow indeed if it was awarded to you rather than earned simply because you were given the coords by a source or listing service other than the CO.

 

What about puzzle caches? If a CO just gives the coords to a beta-tester to test the coordinates then how is that fair to a non-beta tester who has to solve a difficult puzzle to get the cache?

 

FTF is not a binary condition, it is also not a dictionary defined term either. For example what about group FTFs and shared FTFs?

 

FTFs are for fun and not an official part of geocaching. There is wiggle room but there is also, I believe, a "code of honor".

 

What if I were just out hiking in the woods and I found the final to an unfound 5 star puzzle but had never looked at the cache page previously? I would still be the FTF on the cache. I'm not sure where the confusion lies. If there is another signature in the logbook, you're not FTF. Seems pretty cut and dried. How/when that signature got there makes no difference.

 

If you want to know about FTF then maybe you should ask a FTF hound. Asking the people in here that say they don't participate in this side game is a bit useless.

 

You have the FTF and the beta testers can log whenever they want. The order of logs is not an indication. Their signature in the logbook is not an indication. Publication date and time is important.

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I feel that I am definitely an *FTF* hound and this is how my friends and I play the game....recognizing that there are no official rules.

 

A betafinder is someone who knows about the cache before it's published...usually because they are with the CO when the cache is set. We'll log as BETAFINDERS on the bottom of the log or in such a way that its clear we are not First to Find, but since they signed the log, they are entitled to claim the find.

 

The First to Find race begins the moment the cache is published, and the first person to find the cache as sign the log AFTER it has published claims the First to Find.

 

There can be extenuating circumstances, such as an accidental find on an unpublished cache, and in those cases the CO will make the determination. None of my friend lose sleep or friends over it.

 

Betafinders generally do not log their finds until after the First to Find logs so the cache shows up as "unfound" on a pocket query.

Edited by gsmx2
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I feel that I am definitely an *FTF* hound and this is how my friends and I play the game....recognizing that there are no official rules.

 

A betafinder is someone who knows about the cache before it's published...usually because they are with the CO when the cache is set. We'll log as BETAFINDERS on the bottom of the log or in such a way that its clear we are not First to Find, but since they signed the log, they are entitled to claim the find.

 

The First to Find race begins the moment the cache is published, and the first person to find the cache as sign the log AFTER it has published claims the First to Find.

 

There can be extenuating circumstances, such as an accidental find on an unpublished cache, and in those cases the CO will make the determination. None of my friend lose sleep or friends over it.

 

Betafinders generally do not log their finds until after the First to Find logs so the cache shows up as "unfound" on a pocket query.

 

That's the nice thing about FTF game, anybody who plays can make up their own rules. I've seen people claim FTF when the actual first finder found the cache outside park hours. I've seen people claim FTF when a missing cache was replaced with a new container and logbook. I've seen people claim FTF when they couldn't find the cache and threw down their own container on the spot. It's all legit because the only rules are the ones the individual players make up. It's an adult version of playing "pretend".

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Thanks for your feedback. I feel a better sense of understanding on how this game is played. I'm going to remove the personal sense of competition from this hobby & enjoy every other aspect of it :)

This attitude alone makes you a winner! B)

 

Hello?? Winning!!! I'll bet he has Tiger Blood too. I can't believe I went with that, someone slap me.

 

I quoted an older post, but I too like your attitude. A lot of newer players don't realize it's only a miniscule number of highly active premium members who do the whole "FTF" thing. In my opinion, this is because they're always seeing the "chatter" in the first couple of logs every single time a new cache is published, without realizing it's the same small handful of people every time. No, everyone in your area with a Geocaching account is not obsessed with being part of that chatter. B)

 

BUT I do agree with the last couple of posts above me (gsmx2 and Belken). I would think it is generally accepted in most areas that Beta Testers are not FTF, and don't log as such. It sounds to me from one of your posts that you've been "awarded" the FTF, as in being immortalized for all eternity in the body of the cache description.

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By the very definition of FtF. First to Find, "beta testers" not only count but it is just simply an indisputable fact. First to find is a binary condition, either you are or you are not.

FTF is a game, not a statement of fact. Why do you and a few others keep treating at as such when everyone else doesn't? As a game it has, while not official, rules. One of those unofficial rules is beta testers don't count.

 

Let's say I set up a running race with prizes through a forest and tie red ribbons to mark the trail. I get a bunch of friends to test it the day before to see if I didn't put the ribbons close enough together. Do they deserve the prizes? Are they considered the winners? No.

 

The race doesn't start until I say GO! Same thing with the FTF game.

 

If you wish to treat is as some indisputable black and white fact, go right ahead. The rest of us will treat it as a fun and competitive game.

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That's the nice thing about FTF game, anybody who plays can make up their own rules.

Those people can claim whatever they want. The people who are more serious about it, the so called hounds, have their own set of rules. Reading this topic and several like it in the past, those rules seem to be common.

 

I've seen people claim FTF when the actual first finder found the cache outside park hours. I've seen people claim FTF when a missing cache was replaced with a new container and logbook. I've seen people claim FTF when they couldn't find the cache and threw down their own container on the spot. It's all legit because the only rules are the ones the individual players make up. It's an adult version of playing "pretend".

To the hounds, it's about the race to get their first. A true hound would never make any of the above claims as they know they weren't first.

 

These other people can put FTF in their log if they want. They're not fooling anyone but themselves.

Edited by Avernar
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FTF and 2 quarters will buy you a can of pop at the local vending machine down on Main street.

 

Anybody that found the cache first - whether by accident or directions or GPS coords - they are first ones to locate it - they are FTF. No matter what else occurs in life.

 

Be sure and enjoy that pop and your FTF. ;):)

 

I sure would enjoy a 50 cent pop from a vending machine... they're a buck minimum around here... IF you can find a machine and if it works and has inventory!

 

Doug 7rxc

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Thanks for the feedback. Being new to the game, we have a better understanding of how things work.

 

FTF won't get you into heaven, but it's a nice change of pace sometimes! We're not out to always be FTF, it was just something we set out for on this occasion. ..snip.. I think our feelings were just a little hurt, being misled into thinking it hadn't been found yet.

 

I was looking for clarification on how logging a cache worked, FTF worked, beta testing a cache worked. It appears there is no "official" standpoint on this. I apologize, my original post didn't convey this clearly enough.

 

..snip..

 

FTF is best when it just happens... you go for a cache and find a new or unfound one. That feels great. Suffering for it does NOT!

 

I personally think that an Original paper LOG should simply have a box, at the beginning for find #1, Sign it there and it's your FTF... anywhere else and SORRY Please try again! No arguments Since most CO's seem to acknowledge FTF on their CPs that would be the one to post. If not then who really cares, you know the place you signed, and enjoyed the feeling. Anyone else can go read the log book for themselves.

 

Doug 7rxc

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FTF is a game, not a statement of fact. Why do you and a few others keep treating at as such when everyone else doesn't? As a game it has, while not official, rules. One of those unofficial rules is beta testers don't count.

 

Let's say I set up a running race with prizes through a forest and tie red ribbons to mark the trail. I get a bunch of friends to test it the day before to see if I didn't put the ribbons close enough together. Do they deserve the prizes? Are they considered the winners? No.

 

The race doesn't start until I say GO! Same thing with the FTF game.

 

If you wish to treat is as some indisputable black and white fact, go right ahead. The rest of us will treat it as a fun and competitive game.

 

The analogy is unrelated, so we'll let that pass, however more OT: what if you put a tribute cache out, it gets published and you ask that the person to whom the tribute is for be the first to find. Someone finds it 2 or 3 days before they got out there. Who is first to find?

 

I do understand that there is a somewhat fanatical minority that believes the way you do, however it does remain that whomever finds the cache first is entitled to claim they were the first to find the cache. There have been several examples given where this may and will occur. The caches that you own can either have first to find or awarded FTF's as you suggest, that is your option, however you can't complain when someone handles it literally.

 

For most others, whether or not you decide to award it, if we're there first, that is the legitimate first to find. You can award the FtF to whomever you want. There is only a small number of cachers who will care beyond discussions like this.

Edited by baloo&bd
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I do not really take part in the FTF thing, but others in our area do. I have accompanied a cache owner on a tough hike to place a cache. I logged a find, but specifically stated that I accompanied the owner and even left the first page of the logbook open for the "official" FTF. This seemed to work well for all concerned - the FTF got his recognition and I logged it as a find. Everybody can (and does) understand the situation. Especially when it comes to the caches that involve a significant hike, a find tends to be more of a "I experienced this hike" than "I found the box and signed the log", so I don't see the point of having to redo the hike for the smiley.

 

Caches placed for an event that will only be published after the event fall into a grey area - in that case the FTF will most likely be an event attendee, so as a non-attendee you will have to live with that fact.

 

Breaking opening and closing times to be FTF is another dodgy area. I would say the FTF is legit, but the cache owner should probably make some effort to have it published at a time so that FTFs don't break rules - local knowledge of the caching scene should help in this case. If you do break into a compound to FTF, I suggest you don't tell the whole world about it - keep it to yourself - it is not something to be particularly proud of, unless you have a thick skin.

 

These are just my personal interpretations, however I am aware that different people play the game differently, so although I do not necessarily play the way others do, I am mindful of the fact and do try to accomodate others if reasonably possible.

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The analogy is unrelated, so we'll let that pass

The analogy fits perfectly, but as you requested I'm not going to debate it with you.

 

, however more OT: what if you put a tribute cache out, it gets published and you ask that the person to whom the tribute is for be the first to find. Someone finds it 2 or 3 days before they got out there. Who is first to find?

I wouldn't publish it right away if I wanted someone specific to find it first. I'd give them a copy of the listing. Whether or not they choose to treat it as a FTF is up to them, but they would be the ones to do it. I'd also put on the cache page that it was a tribute and that FTF was no longer available on that cache so the FTF hounds wouldn't be mad at me.

 

I do understand that there is a somewhat fanatical minority that believes the way you do, however it does remain that whomever finds the cache first is entitled to claim they were the first to find the cache.

And beta testers choose not to claim it.

 

There have been several examples given where this may and will occur. The caches that you own can either have first to find or awarded FTF's as you suggest, that is your option, however you can't complain when someone handles it literally.

I've never suggested anywhere that FTFs should be awarded. That tends to cause a lot of problems.

 

What I said was the the CO "says GO" when they place the cache and the beta testers are done. If the testers take too long and someone stumbles (on purpose or by accident) upon the cache, then the lucky finder is the FTF.

 

The publication time of the cache on the site has nothing to do with it.

 

For most others, whether or not you decide to award it, if we're there first, that is the legitimate first to find. You can award the FtF to whomever you want. There is only a small number of cachers who will care beyond discussions like this.

I agree with you on the bolded part there. If you're there first, you can claim the FTF.

 

My point is that the CO, and the testers themselves, are not considering themselves as part of the competition to find it as quick as possible. Most FTF hunters have no problem with this and most are glad if a complicated multi or puzzle has been tested beforehand.

Edited by Avernar
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I did some looking around on the Groundspeak support site & didn't find anything that helped.

 

Is there anything that says the cache has to be published before it can be considered a "find" ?

 

I ran across a CO who allowed someone to "beta test" their cache. I was at the cache today and the log already had signatures. After logging my find online (I was the first to do so online), the beta testers logged theirs also - but logged it before the publish date.

 

Doesn't really seem fair, even if I end up listed as FTF for this cache. Shouldn't the beta testers have to visit the hide after it's publish and log their :) for it to count?

 

I'm new to all this (49 finds!) and this was my third attempt at FTF. Looking through logs of other caches I've never really seen this before. I don't really know what to do, so I thought I would come here for advice.

 

Thanks!

Advice ? If you see, "beta tester," ANYWHERE, RUN THE OTHER WAY ! Do Not attempt to understand it or change it.

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