+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 And this, in the forum world, is what is known as backpedaling. When you first started your site you were clearly interested in telling people way more than just what the local laws were. You told us when we should log Needs Maintenance, and when to follow up with Needs Archived. You told us to remember that children enjoy trading trinkets so we should always trade swag. Etc. Your preachings didn't go over too well in this thread, and now you're saying, "no no no, all I want my website to do is list local laws." When you first started your site you were clearly interested in telling people way more than just what the local laws were. =>When I first started my site I was ranting. This was later removed as not to continually sidetrack the debate on the thread. You told us when we should log Needs Maintenance, and when to follow up with Needs Archived. =>That was later addressed in this thread as being my personal views, and then later I deleted the mission. You told us to remember that children enjoy trading trinkets so we should always trade swag. => I stated on my website "As a prepared Geocacher you always carry basic cache repair items (spare logs, small cache containers, and of course SWAG)." =>Please refer to post # 3, 14, 27, 43, at which point the statement became sort of a joke. Your preachings didn't go over too well in this thread, and now you're saying, "no no no, all I want my website to do is list local laws." =>Please site your reference? Are you again speaking of my rant from the first draft of my website? I was speaking as to a possibility of why east Texas has so many abandoned geocaches. A topic that after further review was not why I created the website thus it was removed at the next update. Link to comment
+Too Tall John Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Sorry, lost me at swag.SWAG stands for: S-stuff W-we A-all G-get that inculdes but not limited to childrens toys First: So? You lost narcissa's support when you made it an issue. Second: I'm pretty sure that's an artificial acronym, kinda like saying "NOT" stands for: N-negative O-on T-that It was a word before this definition came into existence. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I totally agree with standing up for laws. I also totally agree that if the laws are not abided by then it will spell disaster for geocaching. I also totally agree that there are a lot of cachers out there who don't care about the laws. I also agree that they threaten this game. What I have a hard time with (and I see others struggling with the same) is your tone. You come in here as a newcomer and have the tone of telling us all what to do. You've come in to save geocaching, when in fact we've been having these kinds of threads and debates for some time. Actually it's kind of funny because I got my behind chewed off for saying the same sorts of things when I was new to these forums. I ran a thread warning people if they didn't get with the program of sticking with the laws, and not destroying the forests then it would be the end of geocaching. They ran me out of here with nasty words and replies that I was a newbie, what did I know? When in fact they were responding to my tone, just as people are responding to yours. You are accusing everyone of not following laws, and while there are those who don't care about them, most of us here do care and abide by them. Your tone is directed at everyone when everyone here is not the problem. Take a deep breath, sit down, eat a doughnut, and try to figure out what is really going on here. I don't see people arguing that they have the right to break the laws (ok, maybe one post). People are against the tone of your posts. People don't take well to people who come off as "know-it-alls" especially when they have been with this for years and you are new. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about this. Try thinking about this as if it were your job or something else that you have been doing for years,and someone new comes on the job, and in the first week blasts you for the sins of some of your co-workers when you have not been doing those things, and this new guy really doesn't have all the information yet. Futhermore, this new guy is telling everyone around you how to do their jobs. Is he going to make people mad? would you get mad? Relax. Sit down. Get a cup of coffee. Then go get a geocache. Have a good day. I know I come across as a poor sport but when I received the email about this thread. I was happy that I would receive viable feedback from fellow geocachers on the laws. Not the heated debate because of my personal views. I am still happy that in these (now) 6 pages of post I have found several good points pertaining to my website that I promptly revised. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 And this, in the forum world, is what is known as backpedaling. And there is nothing wrong with that. People learn from their errors, and can change or adapt. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Sorry, lost me at swag.SWAG stands for: S-stuff W-we A-all G-get that inculdes but not limited to childrens toys First: So? You lost narcissa's support when you made it an issue. Second: I'm pretty sure that's an artificial acronym, kinda like saying "NOT" stands for: N-negative O-on T-that It was a word before this definition came into existence. The original statement from the website was "As a prepared Geocacher you always carry basic cache repair items (spare logs, small cache containers, and of course SWAG)." As I am new to the forum I did not know if narcissa knew of what I was speaking of. So I explained myself as to the meaning as it was used in the website. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 .... So in conclusion my final statement on this thread is: IF YOU DON’T WANT TO FOLLOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS GOVERNING THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY” OF GEOCACHING THEN YOU MY FELLOW GEOCACHER PUBLIC WILL BE THE DOWN FALL OF THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY”. If you really want to be helpful.... Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Drop all the vitriol. Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. =>Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf 2724.44 - Treasure Hunting 1. This designation includes the temporary placement of personal property for the purpose of geo-caching. 36 CFR 261.10(a) requires a special use authorization for occupancy and use of National Forest system land. This is further supported by 36 CFR 261.10(e) that prohibits abandoning personal property on National Forest system land. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. http://coord.info/GC2P4AT = Owner Mousetrap knew of above law =refer http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 http://coord.info/GC2P5DW = Owner Onthefly Crew Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Inform Reviewer about the law – A task that was completed on December 21, 2010 From: Bradley Henley <bradleyhenley@yahoo.com> Date: December 21, 2010 11:49:16 AM CST To: Prime Reviewer <prime.reviewer@gmail.com> Subject: USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness I know this may look like I am coming across a complete a******, however, as a Geocacher in East Texas I feel like it is my responsibility to make you aware of what is happening in this area. I respect you and hope that you understand that this is just for the good of the sport. As you may have heard, geocaching has recently received many negative remarks, press, and comments due to geocachers not following the rules and regulations set forth by Groundspeak and State/Federal laws, as well as common sense. I've talked to many officials who have no idea that these caches have been hidden in there parks, National Forrest, or on Historical Sites. Many of the caches hidden inside our National Forrest are small plastic containers which would not survive the controlled burns. Some of which have been nailed to, or fixed to trees by wire, then spray painted. A few are on Stop signs, or U.S. government property (Post Boxes, National Forrest Signs). There is a permit you have to fill out and a regional yearly fee as well. Please look into this. Thank you. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com U.S. National Forrest Regions: Texas is in Region 8. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf Mousetrap brought this up in a Groundspeak Forum in 2008: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 PLEASE see attached .pdf which talks about placement of a geocache in U.S. National Forrest. Wow.... I'm going to take a minute and help you out here - then explain where you have apparently gone wrong. First - let me re-write your response to me so that it is short, to the point, readable and helpful to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According this helpful PDF I found online, the National Forest Service for the Texas area has a clear policy on the placement of caches within its boundaries. See this link: Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf I believe ((Bradley speaking)) that the area reviewer has erred in publishing the following 2 caches that are within a National Forest: http://coord.info/GC2P4AT and http://coord.info/GC2P5DW The owner of the first cache shows in a 2008 post to these forums that he is aware of the Policy linked above. See - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 While these 2 caches were published in February - I tried to communicate to the reviewer that the law cited above exists and has been ignored. I wrote an email back in December to him with a reference - It would appear he is ignoring me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See how much easier that reads?? - It is clear and concise. (((I can't believe I am actually trying to help here....))) Where you went wrong is in assuming something is wrong. Just because they were published doesn't mean that a permit does not exist or that other arrangements have not been made regarding the caches or that special area rules override the cited document. You are accusing the reviewer of not doing their job but you offer no evidence of it - at all. If you have further evidence - now is the time to outline it. Your email to the reviewer reads as a rambling, all purpose rant of personal opinion - I'm not surpised that it was not taken more seriously. Lacking in specifics, examples and evicence of harm (my opinion). After calling the Forest Ranger over 2 of the local National Forest (Sabine and Angelina) and asking if there were indeed permits filed. Ranger Taylor state that there were never any permits approved in either National Forest. Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 .... So in conclusion my final statement on this thread is: IF YOU DON’T WANT TO FOLLOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS GOVERNING THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY” OF GEOCACHING THEN YOU MY FELLOW GEOCACHER PUBLIC WILL BE THE DOWN FALL OF THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY”. If you really want to be helpful.... Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Drop all the vitriol. Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. =>Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf 2724.44 - Treasure Hunting 1. This designation includes the temporary placement of personal property for the purpose of geo-caching. 36 CFR 261.10(a) requires a special use authorization for occupancy and use of National Forest system land. This is further supported by 36 CFR 261.10(e) that prohibits abandoning personal property on National Forest system land. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. http://coord.info/GC2P4AT = Owner Mousetrap knew of above law =refer http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 http://coord.info/GC2P5DW = Owner Onthefly Crew Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Inform Reviewer about the law – A task that was completed on December 21, 2010 From: Bradley Henley <bradleyhenley@yahoo.com> Date: December 21, 2010 11:49:16 AM CST To: Prime Reviewer <prime.reviewer@gmail.com> Subject: USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness I know this may look like I am coming across a complete a******, however, as a Geocacher in East Texas I feel like it is my responsibility to make you aware of what is happening in this area. I respect you and hope that you understand that this is just for the good of the sport. As you may have heard, geocaching has recently received many negative remarks, press, and comments due to geocachers not following the rules and regulations set forth by Groundspeak and State/Federal laws, as well as common sense. I've talked to many officials who have no idea that these caches have been hidden in there parks, National Forrest, or on Historical Sites. Many of the caches hidden inside our National Forrest are small plastic containers which would not survive the controlled burns. Some of which have been nailed to, or fixed to trees by wire, then spray painted. A few are on Stop signs, or U.S. government property (Post Boxes, National Forrest Signs). There is a permit you have to fill out and a regional yearly fee as well. Please look into this. Thank you. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com U.S. National Forrest Regions: Texas is in Region 8. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf Mousetrap brought this up in a Groundspeak Forum in 2008: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 PLEASE see attached .pdf which talks about placement of a geocache in U.S. National Forrest. Wow.... I'm going to take a minute and help you out here - then explain where you have apparently gone wrong. First - let me re-write your response to me so that it is short, to the point, readable and helpful to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According this helpful PDF I found online, the National Forest Service for the Texas area has a clear policy on the placement of caches within its boundaries. See this link: Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf I believe ((Bradley speaking)) that the area reviewer has erred in publishing the following 2 caches that are within a National Forest: http://coord.info/GC2P4AT and http://coord.info/GC2P5DW The owner of the first cache shows in a 2008 post to these forums that he is aware of the Policy linked above. See - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 While these 2 caches were published in February - I tried to communicate to the reviewer that the law cited above exists and has been ignored. I wrote an email back in December to him with a reference - It would appear he is ignoring me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See how much easier that reads?? - It is clear and concise. (((I can't believe I am actually trying to help here....))) Where you went wrong is in assuming something is wrong. Just because they were published doesn't mean that a permit does not exist or that other arrangements have not been made regarding the caches or that special area rules override the cited document. You are accusing the reviewer of not doing their job but you offer no evidence of it - at all. If you have further evidence - now is the time to outline it. Your email to the reviewer reads as a rambling, all purpose rant of personal opinion - I'm not surpised that it was not taken more seriously. Lacking in specifics, examples and evicence of harm (my opinion). After calling the Forest Ranger over 2 of the local National Forest (Sabine and Angelina) and asking if there were indeed permits filed. Ranger Taylor state that there were never any permits approved in either National Forest. See now - that wasn't hard to add was it?? Adds a lot to your argument as well - don't you think? Add that to the above blue text as the opening post of a thread and you might be taken much much more seriously. However - I still think you may be missing some fact here. I am fairly certain the reviewer would not blantently ignore federal law. Did you send all this to the contact email address at HQ?? They will take action on reviewers not acting appropriately. However - I am fairly certain it is you that is missing something here.... Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 .... So in conclusion my final statement on this thread is: IF YOU DON’T WANT TO FOLLOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS GOVERNING THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY” OF GEOCACHING THEN YOU MY FELLOW GEOCACHER PUBLIC WILL BE THE DOWN FALL OF THE “SPORT/ACTIVITY”. If you really want to be helpful.... Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Drop all the vitriol. Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. =>Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf 2724.44 - Treasure Hunting 1. This designation includes the temporary placement of personal property for the purpose of geo-caching. 36 CFR 261.10(a) requires a special use authorization for occupancy and use of National Forest system land. This is further supported by 36 CFR 261.10(e) that prohibits abandoning personal property on National Forest system land. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. http://coord.info/GC2P4AT = Owner Mousetrap knew of above law =refer http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 http://coord.info/GC2P5DW = Owner Onthefly Crew Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Inform Reviewer about the law – A task that was completed on December 21, 2010 From: Bradley Henley <bradleyhenley@yahoo.com> Date: December 21, 2010 11:49:16 AM CST To: Prime Reviewer <prime.reviewer@gmail.com> Subject: USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness I know this may look like I am coming across a complete a******, however, as a Geocacher in East Texas I feel like it is my responsibility to make you aware of what is happening in this area. I respect you and hope that you understand that this is just for the good of the sport. As you may have heard, geocaching has recently received many negative remarks, press, and comments due to geocachers not following the rules and regulations set forth by Groundspeak and State/Federal laws, as well as common sense. I've talked to many officials who have no idea that these caches have been hidden in there parks, National Forrest, or on Historical Sites. Many of the caches hidden inside our National Forrest are small plastic containers which would not survive the controlled burns. Some of which have been nailed to, or fixed to trees by wire, then spray painted. A few are on Stop signs, or U.S. government property (Post Boxes, National Forrest Signs). There is a permit you have to fill out and a regional yearly fee as well. Please look into this. Thank you. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com U.S. National Forrest Regions: Texas is in Region 8. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf Mousetrap brought this up in a Groundspeak Forum in 2008: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 PLEASE see attached .pdf which talks about placement of a geocache in U.S. National Forrest. Wow.... I'm going to take a minute and help you out here - then explain where you have apparently gone wrong. First - let me re-write your response to me so that it is short, to the point, readable and helpful to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According this helpful PDF I found online, the National Forest Service for the Texas area has a clear policy on the placement of caches within its boundaries. See this link: Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf I believe ((Bradley speaking)) that the area reviewer has erred in publishing the following 2 caches that are within a National Forest: http://coord.info/GC2P4AT and http://coord.info/GC2P5DW The owner of the first cache shows in a 2008 post to these forums that he is aware of the Policy linked above. See - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 While these 2 caches were published in February - I tried to communicate to the reviewer that the law cited above exists and has been ignored. I wrote an email back in December to him with a reference - It would appear he is ignoring me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See how much easier that reads?? - It is clear and concise. (((I can't believe I am actually trying to help here....))) Where you went wrong is in assuming something is wrong. Just because they were published doesn't mean that a permit does not exist or that other arrangements have not been made regarding the caches or that special area rules override the cited document. You are accusing the reviewer of not doing their job but you offer no evidence of it - at all. If you have further evidence - now is the time to outline it. Your email to the reviewer reads as a rambling, all purpose rant of personal opinion - I'm not surpised that it was not taken more seriously. Lacking in specifics, examples and evicence of harm (my opinion). After calling the Forest Ranger over 2 of the local National Forest (Sabine and Angelina) and asking if there were indeed permits filed. Ranger Taylor state that there were never any permits approved in either National Forest. See now - that wasn't hard to add was it?? Adds a lot to your argument as well - don't you think? Add that to the above blue text as the opening post of a thread and you might be taken much much more seriously. However - I still think you may be missing some fact here. I am fairly certain the reviewer would not blantently ignore federal law. Did you send all this to the contact email address at HQ?? They will take action on reviewers not acting appropriately. However - I am fairly certain it is you that is missing something here.... Sara, Jen, Bryon Roth have all been sent the same information. Their statement "Hi Bradley, I contacted your local ranger and he did not respond. If the ranger does not contact us, I have no official source on the matter. Thank you for continuing to keep me informed about caches there. We are still waiting on communication from the ranger. Best Regards, Sara Community Relations Representative" Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) .... So in conclusion my final statement on this thread is: IF YOU DONT WANT TO FOLLOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS GOVERNING THE SPORT/ACTIVITY OF GEOCACHING THEN YOU MY FELLOW GEOCACHER PUBLIC WILL BE THE DOWN FALL OF THE SPORT/ACTIVITY. If you really want to be helpful.... Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Drop all the vitriol. Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. =>Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf 2724.44 - Treasure Hunting 1. This designation includes the temporary placement of personal property for the purpose of geo-caching. 36 CFR 261.10(a) requires a special use authorization for occupancy and use of National Forest system land. This is further supported by 36 CFR 261.10(e) that prohibits abandoning personal property on National Forest system land. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. http://coord.info/GC2P4AT = Owner Mousetrap knew of above law =refer http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 http://coord.info/GC2P5DW = Owner Onthefly Crew Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Inform Reviewer about the law A task that was completed on December 21, 2010 From: Bradley Henley <bradleyhenley@yahoo.com> Date: December 21, 2010 11:49:16 AM CST To: Prime Reviewer <prime.reviewer@gmail.com> Subject: USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness I know this may look like I am coming across a complete a******, however, as a Geocacher in East Texas I feel like it is my responsibility to make you aware of what is happening in this area. I respect you and hope that you understand that this is just for the good of the sport. As you may have heard, geocaching has recently received many negative remarks, press, and comments due to geocachers not following the rules and regulations set forth by Groundspeak and State/Federal laws, as well as common sense. I've talked to many officials who have no idea that these caches have been hidden in there parks, National Forrest, or on Historical Sites. Many of the caches hidden inside our National Forrest are small plastic containers which would not survive the controlled burns. Some of which have been nailed to, or fixed to trees by wire, then spray painted. A few are on Stop signs, or U.S. government property (Post Boxes, National Forrest Signs). There is a permit you have to fill out and a regional yearly fee as well. Please look into this. Thank you. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com U.S. National Forrest Regions: Texas is in Region 8. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf Mousetrap brought this up in a Groundspeak Forum in 2008: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 PLEASE see attached .pdf which talks about placement of a geocache in U.S. National Forrest. Wow.... I'm going to take a minute and help you out here - then explain where you have apparently gone wrong. First - let me re-write your response to me so that it is short, to the point, readable and helpful to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According this helpful PDF I found online, the National Forest Service for the Texas area has a clear policy on the placement of caches within its boundaries. See this link: Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf I believe ((Bradley speaking)) that the area reviewer has erred in publishing the following 2 caches that are within a National Forest: http://coord.info/GC2P4AT and http://coord.info/GC2P5DW The owner of the first cache shows in a 2008 post to these forums that he is aware of the Policy linked above. See - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 While these 2 caches were published in February - I tried to communicate to the reviewer that the law cited above exists and has been ignored. I wrote an email back in December to him with a reference - It would appear he is ignoring me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See how much easier that reads?? - It is clear and concise. (((I can't believe I am actually trying to help here....))) Where you went wrong is in assuming something is wrong. Just because they were published doesn't mean that a permit does not exist or that other arrangements have not been made regarding the caches or that special area rules override the cited document. You are accusing the reviewer of not doing their job but you offer no evidence of it - at all. If you have further evidence - now is the time to outline it. Your email to the reviewer reads as a rambling, all purpose rant of personal opinion - I'm not surpised that it was not taken more seriously. Lacking in specifics, examples and evicence of harm (my opinion). After calling the Forest Ranger over 2 of the local National Forest (Sabine and Angelina) and asking if there were indeed permits filed. Ranger Taylor state that there were never any permits approved in either National Forest. See now - that wasn't hard to add was it?? Adds a lot to your argument as well - don't you think? Add that to the above blue text as the opening post of a thread and you might be taken much much more seriously. However - I still think you may be missing some fact here. I am fairly certain the reviewer would not blantently ignore federal law. Did you send all this to the contact email address at HQ?? They will take action on reviewers not acting appropriately. However - I am fairly certain it is you that is missing something here.... Sara, Jen, Bryon Roth have all been sent the same information. Their statement "Hi Bradley, I contacted your local ranger and he did not respond. If the ranger does not contact us, I have no official source on the matter. Thank you for continuing to keep me informed about caches there. We are still waiting on communication from the ranger. Best Regards, Sara Community Relations Representative" Subject: Re: Groundspeak (Geocaching) Contact Information Thanks! I will be contacting them next week. John Ippolito Public Services Team Leader National Forests & Grasslands in Texas Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) .... So in conclusion my final statement on this thread is: IF YOU DONT WANT TO FOLLOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS GOVERNING THE SPORT/ACTIVITY OF GEOCACHING THEN YOU MY FELLOW GEOCACHER PUBLIC WILL BE THE DOWN FALL OF THE SPORT/ACTIVITY. If you really want to be helpful.... Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Drop all the vitriol. Give VERY specific examples of the state/federal laws you keep referring to. =>Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf 2724.44 - Treasure Hunting 1. This designation includes the temporary placement of personal property for the purpose of geo-caching. 36 CFR 261.10(a) requires a special use authorization for occupancy and use of National Forest system land. This is further supported by 36 CFR 261.10(e) that prohibits abandoning personal property on National Forest system land. Give VERY specific examples of the ways in which you think they are being ignored by cachers/reviewers. http://coord.info/GC2P4AT = Owner Mousetrap knew of above law =refer http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 http://coord.info/GC2P5DW = Owner Onthefly Crew Give VERY specific suggestions for improvement. Inform Reviewer about the law A task that was completed on December 21, 2010 From: Bradley Henley <bradleyhenley@yahoo.com> Date: December 21, 2010 11:49:16 AM CST To: Prime Reviewer <prime.reviewer@gmail.com> Subject: USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness I know this may look like I am coming across a complete a******, however, as a Geocacher in East Texas I feel like it is my responsibility to make you aware of what is happening in this area. I respect you and hope that you understand that this is just for the good of the sport. As you may have heard, geocaching has recently received many negative remarks, press, and comments due to geocachers not following the rules and regulations set forth by Groundspeak and State/Federal laws, as well as common sense. I've talked to many officials who have no idea that these caches have been hidden in there parks, National Forrest, or on Historical Sites. Many of the caches hidden inside our National Forrest are small plastic containers which would not survive the controlled burns. Some of which have been nailed to, or fixed to trees by wire, then spray painted. A few are on Stop signs, or U.S. government property (Post Boxes, National Forrest Signs). There is a permit you have to fill out and a regional yearly fee as well. Please look into this. Thank you. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com U.S. National Forrest Regions: Texas is in Region 8. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf Mousetrap brought this up in a Groundspeak Forum in 2008: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 PLEASE see attached .pdf which talks about placement of a geocache in U.S. National Forrest. Wow.... I'm going to take a minute and help you out here - then explain where you have apparently gone wrong. First - let me re-write your response to me so that it is short, to the point, readable and helpful to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ According this helpful PDF I found online, the National Forest Service for the Texas area has a clear policy on the placement of caches within its boundaries. See this link: Refer http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/policy/geo_cache_regional_policy_fs_manual.pdf I believe ((Bradley speaking)) that the area reviewer has erred in publishing the following 2 caches that are within a National Forest: http://coord.info/GC2P4AT and http://coord.info/GC2P5DW The owner of the first cache shows in a 2008 post to these forums that he is aware of the Policy linked above. See - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=197140&st=0&p=3530554entry3530554 While these 2 caches were published in February - I tried to communicate to the reviewer that the law cited above exists and has been ignored. I wrote an email back in December to him with a reference - It would appear he is ignoring me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See how much easier that reads?? - It is clear and concise. (((I can't believe I am actually trying to help here....))) Where you went wrong is in assuming something is wrong. Just because they were published doesn't mean that a permit does not exist or that other arrangements have not been made regarding the caches or that special area rules override the cited document. You are accusing the reviewer of not doing their job but you offer no evidence of it - at all. If you have further evidence - now is the time to outline it. Your email to the reviewer reads as a rambling, all purpose rant of personal opinion - I'm not surpised that it was not taken more seriously. Lacking in specifics, examples and evicence of harm (my opinion). After calling the Forest Ranger over 2 of the local National Forest (Sabine and Angelina) and asking if there were indeed permits filed. Ranger Taylor state that there were never any permits approved in either National Forest. See now - that wasn't hard to add was it?? Adds a lot to your argument as well - don't you think? Add that to the above blue text as the opening post of a thread and you might be taken much much more seriously. However - I still think you may be missing some fact here. I am fairly certain the reviewer would not blantently ignore federal law. Did you send all this to the contact email address at HQ?? They will take action on reviewers not acting appropriately. However - I am fairly certain it is you that is missing something here.... Sara, Jen, Bryon Roth have all been sent the same information. Their statement "Hi Bradley, I contacted your local ranger and he did not respond. If the ranger does not contact us, I have no official source on the matter. Thank you for continuing to keep me informed about caches there. We are still waiting on communication from the ranger. Best Regards, Sara Community Relations Representative" Subject: Re: Groundspeak (Geocaching) Contact Information Thanks! I will be contacting them next week. John Ippolito Public Services Team Leader National Forests & Grasslands in Texas The last phone call from John Ippolito stated they will create a geocaching/letterboxing permit before contacting Groundspeak to remove the current geocaches. Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) ... However - I still think you may be missing some fact here. I am fairly certain the reviewer would not blantently ignore federal law. Did you send all this to the contact email address at HQ?? They will take action on reviewers not acting appropriately. However - I am fairly certain it is you that is missing something here.... Sara, Jen, Bryon Roth have all been sent the same information. Their statement "Hi Bradley, I contacted your local ranger and he did not respond. If the ranger does not contact us, I have no official source on the matter. Thank you for continuing to keep me informed about caches there. We are still waiting on communication from the ranger. Best Regards, Sara Community Relations Representative" Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? Edited March 12, 2011 by StarBrand Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timly fashion. The reason for the website it to bring awareness to the fact of the laws. Thats nice but didn't exactly answer my questions.... Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timly fashion. The reason for the website it to bring awareness to the fact of the laws. Thats nice but didn't exactly answer my questions.... No one has been harmed that I know of. I am trying to be pro-active: Acting in advance to deal with an expected change or difficulty There were multiple definitions I was refering to this one. Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
+zoltig Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Yes, I also claimed the find for the post office box geocache that I got archived. Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website “This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching.” Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Link to comment
+zoltig Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Yes, I also claimed the find for the post office box geocache that I got archived. Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? Link to comment
+narcissa Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I wonder how long before this guy's mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend comes in to explain that he has [insert list of mental disorders here] and we all need to let him run rampant because he can't help himself. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Yes, I also claimed the find for the post office box geocache that I got archived. Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? No, I did not. Please refer: http://coord.info/GCRTED Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I wonder how long before this guy's mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend comes in to explain that he has [insert list of mental disorders here] and we all need to let him run rampant because he can't help himself. LOL, Your funny! Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Wow, what hostility. Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Wow, what hostility. I have no hostility toward you or your site. I am asking you questions pertinent to your site. You want to be an expert source. Can you? Are you? Preach all you want but you have to deliver if you have any expectation of being credible in any way. So far you simply can't and don't deliver on what you are claiming to be doing. Not even for Texas. Can you answer any of my questions from my previous post? Should be basic stuff. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Wow, what hostility. I have no hostility toward you or your site. I am asking you questions pertinent to your site. You want to be an expert source. Can you? Are you? Preach all you want but you have to deliver if you have any expectation of being credible in any way. So far you simply can't and don't deliver on what you are claiming to be doing. Not even for Texas. Can you answer any of my questions from my previous post? Should be basic stuff. In no form have I portrayed that I or my website is "an expert source". I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity. Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Wow, what hostility. I have no hostility toward you or your site. I am asking you questions pertinent to your site. You want to be an expert source. Can you? Are you? Preach all you want but you have to deliver if you have any expectation of being credible in any way. So far you simply can't and don't deliver on what you are claiming to be doing. Not even for Texas. Can you answer any of my questions from my previous post? Should be basic stuff. In no form have I portrayed that I or my website is "an expert source". I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity. You make broad claims and provide little or no information. I have followed your links and find nothing that is of use to me as a geocacher in general, much less in my area. You still choose to ignore my specific questions regarding geocaching in Texas. What authoritative information can you or do you provide? Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I am going to be so bold as to suggest that the issues the OP is attempting to engage in are better left to Groundspeak and the local/state geocaching groups. Here in Washington the WSGA has engaged actively with National, State and local land managers to develop appropriate caching policies within the managed areas. There is no one size fits all policy or program. There is no one size fits all program or policy even at the local level. The City of Seattle has a pretty much open policy to geocaches in their parks with certain exceptions. The WSGA has actively worked with the city parks department to create and define appropriate policies as needed. No website could ever have achieved the excellent releationships that have been fostered over several years by the active and energetic efforts of the members of the WSGA and the active support of the amazing folks at Groundspeak. To the OP. If you want to be proactive and make a positive difference I suggest you become actively involved in your local and state geocaching organizations. You have a noble intent. You need to channel your energy and focus on your area to work for a positive outcome. I applaud the WSGA and the efforts that Groundspeak has expended to resolve the issues in your area. I do have several other plans that I am working on for local easement to the geocaching public. But again straight from the website "This website is designed to inform geocachers and non-geocachers that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. We applaud the responsible geocachers for their continued rejuvenation or the activity. We hope to sway the violators who disregard "good" common sense and the laws that pertain to the activity of geocaching." Great. What can you tell me about the rules pertaining to placing geocaches in the North Cascades National Park? I believe this question would be appropriate given your quoted statement from the website. Currently the only information I have pertains the Texas. But I can start a page for additional states if needed. Right. So why do you beleive you can claim on your website to be a source of information for geocaching? Do you know the regulations for placing caches in Austin? Houstin? Abilene? Texarkana? San Angelo? You are attempting to set your site and yourself up as a go to site for laws, rules and regulations for the game as a whole and you very likely do not know the particulars within your own state. If you really think you have the energy and the resources to become even the go to site for Texas then more power to you. I like having the group power of Groundspeak, my state group and my local geocaching friends to assist with this stuff. Good luck and I hope you are able to improve the state of the game in your area from your perspective. Please stay out of my state and my area if you do not know the specifics of caching here, which you acknowledge you do not. Wow, what hostility. I have no hostility toward you or your site. I am asking you questions pertinent to your site. You want to be an expert source. Can you? Are you? Preach all you want but you have to deliver if you have any expectation of being credible in any way. So far you simply can't and don't deliver on what you are claiming to be doing. Not even for Texas. Can you answer any of my questions from my previous post? Should be basic stuff. In no form have I portrayed that I or my website is "an expert source". I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity. You make broad claims and provide little or no information. I have followed your links and find nothing that is of use to me as a geocacher in general, much less in my area. You still choose to ignore my specific questions regarding geocaching in Texas. What authoritative information can you or do you provide? How am I making "broad claims"? I post and prove that there are State and Federal laws governing the activity of Geocaching. If you have truly followed my links you would have already know that Texas is the first State that I am compiling information on. Being that you reside elsewhere of course the information on the website would be useless (again only Texas). You do not offer to relay your expertise of your area to advance the website only your dislike and criticism. You ask specific questions regarding Texas (city law) under the assumption that by creating this website I am portraying to be "and expert source" that I personal never claimed. In my opinion, because you cannot find fault in my finding (posted on the website) you are trying to find fault in my person. Are you having any luck with that endeavor? Link to comment
+niraD Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity.The current cache listing guidelines make it clear that "All local laws apply" and that "the landowner's and/or land manager's permission" is required. Given the sheer number of laws, regulations, and policies around the world, I think it is unreasonable to expect any site to maintain a current list of them all. This is the kind of thing that is best handled locally. But the basic principles of obeying local laws and obtaining permission are clearly addressed by the current geocaching.com web site. Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity.The current cache listing guidelines make it clear that "All local laws apply" and that "the landowner's and/or land manager's permission" is required. Given the sheer number of laws, regulations, and policies around the world, I think it is unreasonable to expect any site to maintain a current list of them all. This is the kind of thing that is best handled locally. But the basic principles of obeying local laws and obtaining permission are clearly addressed by the current geocaching.com web site. By compiling as many laws as I can with direct links to each law I can show on one site the complexity of the issues facing the sport of geocaching. Link to comment
+niraD Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Well then, here's a page with links to more policies for you: http://thegba.net/resources/park_information.php?subtab=relations Sisyphus would be proud. Link to comment
+Semper Questio Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I have only tried to show that there are laws not described by the current geocaching website that are governing the activity.The current cache listing guidelines make it clear that "All local laws apply" and that "the landowner's and/or land manager's permission" is required. Given the sheer number of laws, regulations, and policies around the world, I think it is unreasonable to expect any site to maintain a current list of them all. This is the kind of thing that is best handled locally. But the basic principles of obeying local laws and obtaining permission are clearly addressed by the current geocaching.com web site. By compiling as many laws as I can with direct links to each law I can show on one site the complexity of the issues facing the sport of geocaching. And the problem with that is laws change, links change, even oversight agencies change. And they all do so without warning. Keeping up with all of that is nigh on impossible. Not only that, but just linking to laws you can find is, at best, incomplete, especially without any kind of cross-reference capability, context, legal translation of what the laws really mean, or how they interplay with other laws on the books that have no direct mention of geocaching. Putting yourself out there as the clearing house for all laws you determine are related to geocaching is not only presumptuous, but also futile and could easily mislead and misdirect others into being the kind of cacher you espouse to be trying to prevent. Link to comment
+shadowmib Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just to rewind a little on tangent: Though SWAG DOES stand for "Stuff We All Get" the actual etymology of the word derives from an old Scanandavian word meaning "to swing or move unsteadily" later referring to a "heavy bulky bag". In modern times referring to the bags of assorted items people pick up at trade shows, conventions, and fairs. Sometime in much more recent history, some clever person came up with the acroonym in the same way in online gaming "G.I.R.L." is a "Guy In Real Life". The word "girl" existed for centuries but the acronym is much more recent. OK back to your regularly scheduled knock-down drag-out. Link to comment
+zoltig Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Yes, I also claimed the find for the post office box geocache that I got archived. Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? No, I did not. Please refer: http://coord.info/GCRTED I am sorry I should have clarified but since I was originally referring to the link of the geocache involved with the National Forest sign: LEAVING ... FOREST Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? I did not make any reference to the USPS Drop Box. That is for sure a wrongfully placed cache that a person would have no idea of the placement at the locale. Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timly fashion. The reason for the website it to bring awareness to the fact of the laws. Thats nice but didn't exactly answer my questions.... No one has been harmed that I know of. I am trying to be pro-active: Acting in advance to deal with an expected change or difficulty There were multiple definitions I was refering to this one. Ummmm - no one harmed. All appropriate authorities alerted (Rangers, HQ, Reviewer, fellow cachers). Little or no action after several weeks. It is really sounding like a personal vendetta to me. You did your part, you tried. Let it go. Neither side seems to be winning anything here. Have a donut and some cold milk......... Edited March 12, 2011 by StarBrand Link to comment
GOF and Bacall Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Have a donut and some cold milk......... It's a cup of coffee. I know because it was my idea to put it there. Link to comment
+narcissa Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I wonder how long before this guy's mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend comes in to explain that he has [insert list of mental disorders here] and we all need to let him run rampant because he can't help himself. LOL, Your funny! My funny what? Link to comment
Pup Patrol Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 LOL, Your funny! My funny what? *rimshot* Link to comment
Pup Patrol Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just wanted to post a note to Prime Reviewer.... wow, what a lot of crap you have to deal with. Kudos to you for your dedication, above and beyond the call. Please enjoy this virtual coffee & doughnut break: Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Ummmm - answer me this..... IF HQ is persuing this issue and taking some action -- and -- If the head ranger doesn't seem to be all that concerned enough to respond to their inquires, why are you fighting this battle so intensely and alone?? Who exactly has been harmed to date?? The issues with Texas will be resolved in a timely fashion. The reason for the website is to bring awareness that the laws exist. I do not want bad new coverage because of a violation like this: http://coord.info/GC248QR = Hint the geocache is attached to a string hanging inside the National Forest Sign. I don't get it...Am I missing something here? You find the cache you have linked then you are 'narcing' on it? Found it December 18, 2010 by bradleyhenley (167 found) Dropped 1 C&C pathtag Out caching with ygo2slow and noob darkcaster84 on an all night bender from 9:00p.m. tll 6:00 a.m. Bradley Henley bradleyhenley@yahoo.com ....and place a pathtag? Yes, I also claimed the find for the post office box geocache that I got archived. Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? No, I did not. Please refer: http://coord.info/GCRTED I am sorry I should have clarified but since I was originally referring to the link of the geocache involved with the National Forest sign: LEAVING ... FOREST Did you know that cache was in "violation" before you went to find it? I did not make any reference to the USPS Drop Box. That is for sure a wrongfully placed cache that a person would have no idea of the placement at the locale. No, I did not know the geocache was in the sign till I found the geocache. Edited March 12, 2011 by bradleyhenley Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The policy list what is not included under "Treasure Hunting". I'm not sure that's true. I've taken the liberty of affixing a couple screen shots of the relevant documents. Here's the header from the old document. The one you cite as being the current rule. You'll notice it is supplament # 2700-2006-1, with some pretty standard duration language. "This amendment is effective until superseded or removed". It cites the (then) current wording of rule # 2724.44, which, at that time, included geocaching. Yet, when we look at the header from the newer document, we see a revelation. You'll notice that it has a new supplement number, 2700-2007-1. In the header, it specifically makes note of your earlier rule, stating implicitly that the old rule, Amendment # 2700-2006-1, has been superseded. The rule you keep citing as being constantly violated was replaced with the rule I cite. The new rule makes no mention of geocaching. The reason it makes no mention of geocaching is because the Forestry folks realized that they did not need to govern the game. Link to comment
+MustangJoni Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just wanted to post a note to Prime Reviewer.... wow, what a lot of crap you have to deal with. Kudos to you for your dedication, above and beyond the call. Please enjoy this virtual coffee & doughnut break: He is actually, VERY AWESOME! Link to comment
+roziecakes Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Edit: Forget it. Edited March 12, 2011 by nymphnsatyr Link to comment
+bradleyhenley Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The policy list what is not included under "Treasure Hunting". I'm not sure that's true. I've taken the liberty of affixing a couple screen shots of the relevant documents. Here's the header from the old document. The one you cite as being the current rule. You'll notice it is supplament # 2700-2006-1, with some pretty standard duration language. "This amendment is effective until superseded or removed". It cites the (then) current wording of rule # 2724.44, which, at that time, included geocaching. Yet, when we look at the header from the newer document, we see a revelation. You'll notice that it has a new supplement number, 2700-2007-1. In the header, it specifically makes note of your earlier rule, stating implicitly that the old rule, Amendment # 2700-2006-1, has been superseded. The rule you keep citing as being constantly violated was replaced with the rule I cite. The new rule makes no mention of geocaching. The reason it makes no mention of geocaching is because the Forestry folks realized that they did not need to govern the game. To get clarification of the current policy and/or laws associated with geocaching from the U.S. Forest Service. I have drafted a message sent to the U.S. Forest Service. Below is a copy of the message. Hello, I am a Geocacher in the State of Texas. I have been debating the existence of laws governing the placement of geocaches. I have created a website (www.geocacheresponsibly.info). After the creation of the website there was a forum thread on www.geocaching.com created to talk about several aspects of the website and information included. I would like to know the policy by the U.S. Forest Service on the activity of geocaching? Also, I would like to know the current policy and/or law(s) (including links if available) pertaining to the activity of geocaching? Will you please reply with your response to my e-mail address bradleyhenley@yahoo.com? Thank You Bradley Henley Geocache – Responsibly bradleyhenley@yahoo.com Link to comment
+roziecakes Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just wanted to post a note to Prime Reviewer.... wow, what a lot of crap you have to deal with. Kudos to you for your dedication, above and beyond the call. Please enjoy this virtual coffee & doughnut break: He is actually, VERY AWESOME! +1 Being the only reviewer in your area must be extremely challenging and time consuming! You deserve a dozen donuts! Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I wonder how long before this guy's mom/grandma/wife/girlfriend comes in to explain that he has [insert list of mental disorders here] and we all need to let him run rampant because he can't help himself. If so, it must be a Texas thing. Link to comment
Mushtang Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I've been to the web site a few times, and the front page always cracks me up. At the top, in the clouds, are the words GEOCACHE - RESPONSIBLY, in very religious looking script (I think God likes the page). Then some links. Next, again come the words Geocache - Responsibly. Right below that, for some reason they're repeated, except this time with an exclamation point and some quotes thrown in to mix things up a bit. Geocache! - "Responsibly" First paragraph is 4 words, "Welcome to Geocache - Responsibly". This is good, because without this sentence I wouldn't know where I was. The next paragraph starts with the words "Geocache - Responsibly..." Wow, I think somebody likes the name of their page a little. Then he goes on to explain that this movement was so humbly started by just one person, but then proceeded from there worldwide. At this point I'm just laughing too hard to continue to read the rest. And I've also forgotten what site I'm on by then so I make my way to YouTube or somewhere else. Link to comment
knowschad Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Hello, I am a Geocacher in the State of Texas. I have been debating the existence of laws governing the placement of geocaches. I have created a website (www.geocacheresponsibly.info). After the creation of the website there was a forum thread on www.geocaching.com created to talk about several aspects of the website and information included. I would like to know the policy by the U.S. Forest Service on the activity of geocaching. Also, I would like to know the current policy and/or law(s) (including links if available) pertaining to the activity of geocaching? Will you please reply with your response to my e-mail address bradleyhenley@yahoo.com? Thank You Bradley Henley Geocache – Responsibly bradleyhenley@yahoo.com Simplified it for you. Edited March 13, 2011 by knowschad Link to comment
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