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Who "Owns" the data put into Geocaching.com


teamwsmf

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There have been threads going on about the use and reuse of the data we , thats you and me, have put into this site. One thing that keeps comming up is the Terms Of Use.

 

In these Use Terms its pretty clear that Geocaching.com OWNS and CONTROLS anything we post here. As its written its even a no no to print the data out and pass it on to another geocacher.

 

In an era where Open Data projects flourish does it make sense to further put into a system that is not going to let us do something as simple as put that data on our palm devices?

 

I love this site, I was became a charter memeber as soon as the form was put up, I even dontated money on top of that.

 

I also see the type of constriction that is going on with legal wrangligns like the DMCA, the Bono Laws and the SCCCA, not to mention the new Broadband bill thats going to make it a crime to copy any data to anyother device.

 

I do not think it would benifit Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to take part in a system that seeks to contrict, constrain and control its users, the very users who are putting int he data that makes this site even worth using.

 

I would really like to see this issue cleared up before I make any further plans on using and adding to this site.

 

-tom

 

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TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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I know this is not a popular question to ask, but seeing has the answer will determine the participation of a few folks here I was thinking maybe just a word or two from the powers that be would be appropriate.

 

Is the data able to be manipulated for personal non profit use or not?

 

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TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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From what I've been reading on the site it seems like the site is open to non commercial use and usually site owners are more willing to share thinfs like data, logos etc if it's non commercial.

 

As a leader of an open source project myself (YaBB http://www.yabb.info ) there are also restrictions on use of that as well. Even though these projects use the GPL license, people must adhere to the restrictions and can't just go wild using bits and pieces.

 

That being said, I will follow this thread closely as I'd be willing to see how others feel...I was creating my own geocaching page (to follow my finds/hides etc etc) and was considering pulling data from the geocaching site and working with the pages but decided not to for now.

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I post all my caches to both this site and to the other caching .com site.

 

It would seem that the coordinates to my cache, my words of the description of my cache, etc is mine. Is there anything illegal about that?

 

Ditto people finding my cache. Wouldn't it be legal for them to post there "find" to both sites?

 

Alan

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Apparently still no answer on this subject. Maybe it's time to offer it as a multiple choice question? Some suggestions:

 

1. We're not going to answer this question, get over it and move on.

2. We think we've already answered this question elsewhere.

3. We're trying to decide what our answer is, but the lawyers haven't gotten back to us yet.

4. We ignore messages from TeamWSMF and kablooey because those two guys are just trying to stir up trouble and we think if we ignore them, maybe they'll go away.

5. We aren't going to answer this question because the answer is long and involved, and we feel we have more important things to be doing.

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Okay, here's your answer. In order to maintain the site, they have to control the data. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I invite you to join the linux-kernel mailing list and suggest that they (a) move to C++ or (:D switch to the BSD license. I look forward to reading the replies. icon_wink.gif

 

Basically, if they didn't have the right to do with the submitted data whatever they want to, they would have to get permission from each and every person impacted by each and every change. (For example, disabling javascript on the cache pages for security reasons could be construed as creating an unauthorized derivative work, which would be a big no-no.)

 

So, to put it shortly, unless all the world suddenly holds hands in a big circle and sings a pleasant little tune while agreeing to do away with all the litigation and Just Be Friends, there exist very few workable alternatives. (And since I am not a lawyer, much less one with a background in copyright and IP law, I can think of no "better" solution.)

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Okay, here's your answer. In order to maintain the site, they have to control the data. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I invite you to join the linux-kernel mailing list and suggest that they (a) move to C++ or (:mad: switch to the BSD license. I look forward to reading the replies. icon_wink.gif

 

Basically, if they didn't have the right to do with the submitted data whatever they want to, they would have to get permission from each and every person impacted by each and every change. (For example, disabling javascript on the cache pages for security reasons could be construed as creating an unauthorized derivative work, which would be a big no-no.)

 

So, to put it shortly, unless all the world suddenly holds hands in a big circle and sings a pleasant little tune while agreeing to do away with all the litigation and Just Be Friends, there exist very few workable alternatives. (And since I am not a lawyer, much less one with a background in copyright and IP law, I can think of no "better" solution.)

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Two real world parallels come to my mind:

 

1. Phone Book

 

2. Maps

 

If you look at a phone book, the collection of the data and its presentation is copyrighted, but each individual piece of data is not. I understand there was a case in the US where one company retyped anothers phone book and published it. The authors of the new phonebook were let off because the judge claimed that the data could not be owned.

 

Another example is maps. Here our maps and their data are all copyright HRH Queen in Right of Canada AKA the Government. My house, it's coordinates and the street I'm on are not copyright, just the collection of data that the government has spent millions on to create the maps. If I chose to take my GPS and create maps of all the roads in my neighborhood then that data is copyrighted to me!

 

As far as I can tell, and I'm not a lawyer, the cache description and it's location can not be copyrighted. If I chose to set up a caching site and I copied all the data from Geocaching.com to my site, I highly doubt that anyone could legally stop me, TOS or not.

 

Personally I'd like to see Jeremy open up the database for read access so some of the other cool sites that do statistics and maps and such can provide this type of service in a sanctioned way.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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As I understand this issue, Groundspeak owns the site and all information posted to it. This does not restrict an individual from posting his/her cache to more than one site. Remember, the information you post becomes the property of Groundspeak as it is housed on Groundspeak's servers. Your cache belongs to you and you alone.

 

You are free to use the Geocaching.com site for non-commercial purposes. Obviously, if you opened a site to compete with geocaching.com and you merely lifted your data from the geocaching.com site, you are open to a world of litigation.

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quote:
Originally posted by mrcpu:

As far as I can tell, and I'm not a lawyer, the cache description and it's location can not be copyrighted. If I chose to set up a caching site and I copied all the data from Geocaching.com to my site, I highly doubt that anyone could legally stop me, TOS or not.


 

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'd be really surprised if that's true. For one thing, the cache description is copyrighted by the person who wrote it. That person, by posting the cache description to geocaching.com, has implicitly given geocaching.com a non-exclusive license to use the description however geocaching.com sees fit. HOWEVER, that person has not given anyone else a license to use that description in any way. If you wanted to use the cache descriptions on your own competing site, you'd have to get permission from each individual cache owner. I'm not sure even geocaching.com has the right to give you that permission, assuming they wanted to, but I'm less sure of that because the terms of the implicit license aren't very clear.

 

warm.gif

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Facts cannot be copyrighted. Original creative content is copyrightable by the creator.

 

Thus, a cache location (i.e. coordinates) could be considered factual data which is not copyrightable.

 

However, a cache description is creative content and is copyrightable by the creator of that content, i.e. the cache placer. Whether or not the website can claim copyright on that text is dependent on the relationship between the cache placer and the website. As a not-particularly-relevant example, if you were paid to write a column for a newspaper, the newspaper could claim ownership of the copyright on your original work.

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quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:

Facts cannot be copyrighted. Original creative content is copyrightable by the creator.

 

Thus, a cache location (i.e. coordinates) could be considered factual data which is not copyrightable.

 

However, a cache description is creative content and is copyrightable by the creator of that content, i.e. the cache placer. Whether or not the website can claim copyright on that text is dependent on the relationship between the cache placer and the website. ....


 

So, can the website claim it or not? If it's my description, can't I use it elsewhere? How can any site claim my cache's description? The relationship between me and the cache site is the site allows me to post my caache info and I allow it to use my cache posting and other contributions on the site. I don't pay but neither does the site pay me.

 

Intellectual property lawyers?

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

So, can the website claim it or not? If it's my description, can't I use it elsewhere? How can any site claim my cache's description? The relationship between me and the cache site is the site allows me to post my caache info and I allow it to use my cache posting and other contributions on the site. I don't pay but neither does the site pay me.


When you submit the data, geocaching.com can use it as they see fit. You have given them permission. They, in turn, give permission to the users of geocaching.com to use the collected data according to the terms on the site.

 

Now, since you wrote it, you have every right to post it on another site. On the other hand, "Joe Bob the Spiteful" (who is completely fictional and is not related to any real people from any of the other sites, even if some hypersensitive person comes by and thinks he is, okay?)... Anyway, if Joe Bob comes along and starts pulling all the cache info from geocaching.com, he is breaking their terms.

 

Okay, now let's say that you get "Frankie the Benevolent" to give you permission to mirror all her caches. In that case, you have permission from her to use what she wrote, however, you do *not* have permission from geocaching.com to mine their database to pull all of her caches to mirror on your site. Just because you have the permission of the person who created the info does not automatically mean you have permission to use geocaching.com to gather it from their database (which *they* have the rights to, as you see in the ownership part of the terms).

 

So, Joe Bob could get all the information from Frankie and have a site with all her caches, but he could not use geocaching.com as the source of the data unless *they* give permission. On the other hand, if geocaching.com became big enough to have a few dozen full-time staffers and they decided to move all the virtuals to virtual-geocaching.com, a spin-off site, they would be able to give their spin-off crew permission to pull all the virtuals from their DB and use them. You gave them permission to do so.

 

Anyway, while I am not a lawyer (and you *absolutely* should consult one if you require sound advice on legal matters), it's not hard to think through IP matters. Just do as I've done: turn off your indignation generators, shut down your religio-socio-political ideals, and shunt all that brain power to your logic processors. Just remember that where the data is gathered from (at the moment) matters too, not just where the data originated from.

 

Well, I guess that'll do for a simple "get acquainted with IP" essay. icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

So, can the website claim it or not? If it's my description, can't I use it elsewhere? How can any site claim my cache's description? The relationship between me and the cache site is the site allows me to post my caache info and I allow it to use my cache posting and other contributions on the site. I don't pay but neither does the site pay me.


When you submit the data, geocaching.com can use it as they see fit. You have given them permission. They, in turn, give permission to the users of geocaching.com to use the collected data according to the terms on the site.

 

Now, since you wrote it, you have every right to post it on another site. On the other hand, "Joe Bob the Spiteful" (who is completely fictional and is not related to any real people from any of the other sites, even if some hypersensitive person comes by and thinks he is, okay?)... Anyway, if Joe Bob comes along and starts pulling all the cache info from geocaching.com, he is breaking their terms.

 

Okay, now let's say that you get "Frankie the Benevolent" to give you permission to mirror all her caches. In that case, you have permission from her to use what she wrote, however, you do *not* have permission from geocaching.com to mine their database to pull all of her caches to mirror on your site. Just because you have the permission of the person who created the info does not automatically mean you have permission to use geocaching.com to gather it from their database (which *they* have the rights to, as you see in the ownership part of the terms).

 

So, Joe Bob could get all the information from Frankie and have a site with all her caches, but he could not use geocaching.com as the source of the data unless *they* give permission. On the other hand, if geocaching.com became big enough to have a few dozen full-time staffers and they decided to move all the virtuals to virtual-geocaching.com, a spin-off site, they would be able to give their spin-off crew permission to pull all the virtuals from their DB and use them. You gave them permission to do so.

 

Anyway, while I am not a lawyer (and you *absolutely* should consult one if you require sound advice on legal matters), it's not hard to think through IP matters. Just do as I've done: turn off your indignation generators, shut down your religio-socio-political ideals, and shunt all that brain power to your logic processors. Just remember that where the data is gathered from (at the moment) matters too, not just where the data originated from.

 

Well, I guess that'll do for a simple "get acquainted with IP" essay. icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

Just because you have the permission of the person who created the info does not automatically mean you have permission to use geocaching.com to gather it from their database (which *they* have the rights to, as you see in the ownership part of the terms).

So, Joe Bob could get all the information from Frankie and have a site with all her caches, but he could not use geocaching.com as the source of the data unless *they* give permission.


 

Though what ClayJar says may seem to make sense, the law is not always so clearcut. Because Frankie has given permission for Joe Bob's reuse of the information and because the information is publically available from the geocaching.com site, it's easily conceivable (to me, at least) that a court could rule that Joe Bob is permitted to retrieve the information directly from geocaching.com. Basically, it seems that unless there's clear legal precedent (and I gather there isn't here), most lawyers are smart enough not to commit to a firm opinion one way or the other.

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quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:

Because Frankie has given permission for Joe Bob's reuse of the information and because the information is publically available from the geocaching.com site, it's easily conceivable (to me, at least) that a court could rule that Joe Bob is permitted to retrieve the information directly from geocaching.com.


Actually, the fact that the general public can agree to what is, in effect, a license to use the data without cost *does not* place the collection of data in the public domain.

 

This is quite well establised in the paper world: the fact that there exist libraries does not preclude the books in those libraries being protected by copyright law. In the online world, an abundance of analogous cases exist. For example, some software licenses provide for no-cost licenses for non-commercial entities -- licenses that do not apply to commercial entities. If you, as a commercial entity, wish to use the code, you must buy or negotiate your own license. The fact that the code is publically accessible *in no way* precludes the copyright holder from charging for licenses.

 

Reproduction of a copyrighted work is limited to that for that the copyright holder has granted permission. While you could make a case for a fair use exception when you print a personal copy, mining the database for the purposes of posting on a hypothetical "competitor" site does not fall under fair use.

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quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

Actually, the fact that the general public can agree to what is, in effect, a license to use the data without cost *does not* place the collection of data in the public domain.


 

Now, here is another question. Can I flag any data I place here as being in the "public domain" and thus useable by anyone who wants it?

 

This is pretty much the only way I want my data to be used. Im not asking Groundspeak Corp to be hammered by dataminers (and there are real and proven ways they could offer up the whole of the sites data without being hammered), just that if someone wants to use my data they can.

 

Copyright laws in the US are extremly F*d up. I do not want to participate anymore than I need in locking up data that can and should be in the public domain.

 

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TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

Now, here is another question. Can I flag any data I place here as being in the "public domain" and thus useable by anyone who wants it?


The best and most thorough way I can think of is to have your cache info on your own page(s). What is on *your* pages is your business, and you have every right to tell anyone and everyone that they can use your data in any way they want (even reposting it in Klingon, if they want to). If you have the cache's web page link pointing to your pages, there should be no problem when people use your info; they will get it from your site not from geocaching.com.

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This topic has a lot of misinformation involved with it. Let me try and sort it out:

 

1) "facts can not be copyrighted". This is true. You can't copyright a coordinate. You *can* however, copyright a description including that coordinate.

 

2) "who owns the copyright"? This has a two part answer:

 

a) The cache description is _automatically_ copyrighted by the person who wrote it, at least in the countries that have signed the copyright treaty, which is most countries.

 

:mad: the *collection* (the database, web page formats, et cetera,) is copyrighted by whoever owns the web site.

 

3) "None of this matters" The restrictions placed on using the material from the web site are not based on copyright, but rather on the terms-of-service (ToS) agreement for the site.

 

4) "HOWEVER" whether such implicit ToS are enforcable is a topic under much debate in the courts. Expect it to be years before it matters.

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If several/many of us posted that--

 

1) Unauthorized use of our cache descriptions is prohibited without prior written consent

 

2) Granted Geocaching.com unlimited use

 

3) Granted geocachers use of the description for purposes of seeking the cache only

 

4) Stated that unauthorized copying by any means is prohibited without written consent.

 

Could that legally stop the data mining or at least make it more difficult?

 

Wouldn't miners have to scour their mined data to eliminate my description since it is clear that they do not have my permission?

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Actually, since I am using geocaching.com, I have agreed to their terms of service. Included in that is that I grant them the right to do whatever they want with the data I submit. One of the things they have done is to grant the right to use the cache data to geocache (i.e. a person can look at a cache page, print it, and whatever).

 

Now, I have not been approached by any other site regarding my caches. This means that the only way I should see what I wrote on another site is if the guys at geocaching.com have granted that right. Any site that does not have permission from either geocaching.com or myself is infringing my implicit copyright (implicit because I have not actually filed anything with the appropriate copyright offices).

 

Now, as for something like Buxley's maps... I consider that fair use. Neither the descriptions nor even the coordinates are available from the pin maps. The only things of mine that is there are the names. If he started mirroring the pages without permission, I'd have a real problem with that, but he's not. Also, since I use his maps almost every week, if there was a question about whether it's fair use, I'll gladly type up my cache names and coords and send them along.

 

Anyway, I'm just wondering one thing: are there currently any sites that are mining data from the geocaching.com database? If this is not just a hypothetical discussion, I'd really like to have a look at what's actually going on in practice.

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